MP has filed a lawsuit against Dream Theater

[Jaffa]

Thank you bosk.

[Jamesman42]

cough. 

FUCK!

[Peter Griffin]

heh. that was my entry on the MSpaint thread. more apropos now, i guess. 

[MetalJens]

And I believe, as crazy as it sounds, that Mike is still collecting his paycheck as an officer of the corporation. Which begs the question: Is he getting paid more than Mike Mangini to be the "not" drummer of Dream Theater?

I don't know a lot about these legal issues, but I do know that in Norway (and I'm assuming things work in a quite similar manner in the U.S.), artists earn royalties on record sales which are split 1/3 for the composer, 1/3 for the lyric author, and 1/3 for the artists who plays on each song (or record). For instance, this would mean that JP probably gets by far the most royalties from ADTOEs revenues since he wrote 80% of the lyrics, in addition to being part-composer and artist on all of the songs. Mangini only served as an artist (not composing or writing lyrics), and therefore doesn't get nearly as much (1/3 * 1/5 = 1/15 of the earnings, if it is in fact split like this).

I don't think Portnoy will earn anything from ADTOEs revenues, but he will off course keep his royalty rights for all previous DT material that are still being sold and DT probably still makes a good profit on.

Not 100 % sure here, but I think this is close to how incomes are distributed among band members. Although, it may be (even) more complicated due to naming/brand rights etc.

For touring income, I would think they split the income more evenly among the members that participate on the tour.

[7StringedBeast]

I think DT will be fine.  They definitely have more lawyers than MP.  Dream Theater is going to have the full lawyer team of Road Runner Records.  One of the benefits to being signed.  MP quitting means he is no longer protected under the Road Runner family.  DT will not be harmed by this.

MP screwed himself in the eyes of DT fans.  If he wins, people will hate him.  If he loses, people will still hate him over this.

[unspoken]

Agree 100%. Are you a lawyer? I'm a corporate attorney..your explanation is 100% accurate.

Yes.

But if you are an attorney, you likely do a lot of work typing documents.  And I'm curious as to how you do that if your hand is a dolphin. 

:

Then again, if you have to type everything one-handed, it takes twice as long, which means you generate more billable hours.  Okay, never mind.  I get it now.

LOL!!

[3xodus]

I can't lie, after some careful thought on this subject (I have absolutely no idea why I'm thinking carefully about this subject)... I think MP does deserve, after 25 years of helping build the bands popularity and proffesional connections, some residual compensation. No matter what happens as far as lawsuits and settlements, he does deserve some compensation. I think a lawsuit is well within his rights.

I don't appreciate him saying that he isn't standing in the way of the band while simultaneously suing them for the name rights. All he had to say was, "Legal issues need to be settled, and I wish them the best of luck."

Regardless of that, it's really none of my fucking business. I am not a DT fan because of how they split their money or how much money they make. If I gave a shit about how much money a band made I would be the world's biggest Kanye West fan. I'm a fan of DT because I was inspired to pick up a guitar at 12 years old and got this crazy concept to write songs that were 30 minutes long that were unlike anything I had ever heard over the radio. To mix styles and just randomly try out a country blues solo over a distorted jazz riff. I was pitching the idea to some friends on the internet and one of them said, "You mean like Dream Theater or something?" From then on their music inspired me to find the feeling of peace and accomplishment that I could only attain from learning and writing music. I'm 26 now and after 14 years of listening to DT they are the only band that I still musically identify with on every level. That is amazing to me, and that is why it is so hard for me to see a split between them.

Anyway, while that was a bit off topic, I just realized that this is none of my fucking business and therefore I have no interest vested in it. The only interest I have vested in this is to see the band members happy and continue making great music for all of us. Quite frankly, I still would love to see the MP, JP, JR, JM, JLB lineup some day. I look forward to when it happens honestly.

[jingle.boy]

Anyway, while that was a bit off topic, I just realized that this is none of my fucking business and therefore I have no interest vested in it. The only interest I have vested in this is to see the band members happy and continue making great music for all of us. Quite frankly, I still would love to see the MP, JP, JR, JM, JLB lineup some day. I look forward to when it happens honestly.

A-fucking-men.  Way too much drama around this, and frankly, I'm surprised it was only 2 bans.

[Perpetual Change]

Anyway, while that was a bit off topic, I just realized that this is none of my fucking business and therefore I have no interest vested in it. The only interest I have vested in this is to see the band members happy and continue making great music for all of us. Quite frankly, I still would love to see the MP, JP, JR, JM, JLB lineup some day. I look forward to when it happens honestly.

A-fucking-men.  Way too much drama around this, and frankly, I'm surprised it was only 2 bans.

Eh, no. We're "the fans." Our ex-fearless leader is suing the band for their name. We kinda have a right to be outraged. I get keeping things respectable and all, but Mike Portnoy needs to hear how disappointed his fans are with him over this. Even if he'll just shrug it off as "people turning their backs on him."

[Jamesman42]

When this case closes, I wonder if it will ever be open again

[MetalMike06]

Wow, this is ridiculous. 

[Nick]

When this case closes, I wonder if it will ever be open again

Part of me wishes this were ban number 3.

But most of me is just angry you thought of it before me.

[Priest of Syrinx]

Eh, no. We're "the fans." Our ex-fearless leader is suing the band for their name. We kinda have a right to be outraged. I get keeping things respectable and all, but Mike Portnoy needs to hear how disappointed his fans are with him over this. Even if he'll just shrug it off as "people turning their backs on him."

Be outraged at the global economy.  Be outraged at what's happening in the Horn of Africa.

Don't be outraged over a band's name.

[Jamesman42]

When this case closes, I wonder if it will ever be open again

Part of me wishes this were ban number 3.

But most of me is just angry you thought of it before me.

Why ban number 3?

[Perpetual Change]

Eh, no. We're "the fans." Our ex-fearless leader is suing the band for their name. We kinda have a right to be outraged. I get keeping things respectable and all, but Mike Portnoy needs to hear how disappointed his fans are with him over this. Even if he'll just shrug it off as "people turning their backs on him."

Be outraged at the global economy.  Be outraged at what's happening in the Horn of Africa.

Don't be outraged over a band's name.

Hm. I'll try.

Nope, still outraged.

RESISTANCE IS CALLING
TONIGHT

[Madman Shepherd]

Petrucci and Mangini are of Italian background right?


I'm sure this can be settled "out of court".

...and James is French-Canadian, so it can be settled on the ice.

...and JM is of Korean background so it can be settled in an underground pit complete with broken glass shards glued to their hands.

...and Kevin Moore is....Irish, so they can have a dance-off, Irish gig style

...and Charlie Dominici is part alien, so he can use a mind melter death ray

[Perpetual Change]

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

I've defended Mike a lot over the years and given him the benefit of the doubt plenty of times when he's met with accusations from people online, but now I feel like that was completely unwarranted now. I'm doing my best to be as respectful as possible now, but I've gotta say, I won't be fooled again by anything Mike says.

[BlobVanDam]

You know what? This thread makes me really glad we have a lawyer running the site.

Like most other people, I find it very difficult to understand the logic behind suing a band for moving on without you when you quit. It would support that he was bluffing with quitting, but I don't want to believe that. Maybe it's all about the business side to do with all that legal ramble that bosk said (given that he's a lawyer, I'll trust his assessment on that). If it's more about the money/business side, I think he has every right to compensation, but I would expect that could have been handled before it got to this point, so maybe it's something worse. And if that's the case, I'm disappointed that MP did this.

Given that this was filed months ago, and that MP's recent comments (even including on this topic) are looking more positive and less bitter than he has been in recent months, I'd like to think that this has been settled and that he truly has begun to move on, but the fact he did it obviously looks very bad for any long term reconciliation of the friendships he had with these guys, unfortunately.

[gentaishinigami]

Lol, someone (Bagelstein) on 5/8 said if MP wins the name DT they should buy the name Majesty for the ultimate troll.  Does anyone know the status of the name these days?  I can't imagine the band from back then is still around, and if they aren't perhaps the name wouldn't be too hard to get.   

[tjanuranus]

cough. 

Flawless Victory

[herydreather]

MP..oh..MP...out of u'r mind?
Speechless...

[lonestar]

Wow, 13 pages in six hours,  I'm proud of you guys.

[Progmetty]

So what's the worse case scenario if he won? just taking away the band name?

[Nel_Annette]

I hope DT's lawyer is a clown on a unicycle. Best court entrance ever.

[tjanuranus]

DT should walk in the court room with a boombox blasting the beginning of Breaking All Illusions. That intro is winning to the exponential extreme. The judge would automatically have to give DT the win once he hears that.

[Orthogonal]

It's a bit ironic that MP is lamenting the grind of 25 years of writing/touring with DT and needing a break while he is working on half a dozen side projects and touring with another band at the time. When MP wrote "Never Enough" to the fans, he should have looked in the mirror and instead wrote "Too Much". He just had too much on his plate and a burn-out was inevitable.

I don't have a horse in this race, but I just hope it all ends quickly.

[The Silent Cody]

I'm really curious how it will ends... hope it will be soon. If I was Portnoy... I would not want to put DT on a hiatus for sure...

[Mbarak]

These things can take months and sometimes years to fully work through.  In the mean time, DT has an album to write and a tour to embark on.  They can't wait around until all the legal issues are resolved.  That takes time, and there's no reason they can't get on with their business while it is being worked out.

But I do remember DT guys (JP in particular) saying that they had to hold back announcement of the new drummer because there were legal issues to resolve. So the fact is, DT did wait even if it was for a short while and I'm assuming during this wait they got a clear picture from their lawyers about their standing with DT's name and royalties. I also assume this is exactly why JP, JR and JLB sounded more reserved in interviews about communication with Mike as opposed to him saying they "dissed" him.

What I'm saying is that I think/assume that DT did their homework, and while they might've not expected a lawsuit they however were prepared for it. And as people said earlier, from MP's tone in recent interviews we can also assume that the matter has been resolved.

[kon_jakae]

As a musician, I have to say that situation like this is heart-broken.

As a lawyer (even though not a U.S. lawyer), I have to admit that MP has the right to do so. Please be noted that I am speaking of his "Legal Right". However, please be noted that we never know actual facts that are substantial for the analysis of the case.

Supposed there is shareholders agreement for shareholding of shares in Ytsejam between the band members. (Those who hold shares in Ytsejam may possibly include others that are not band members.) If the agreement is well-written, there may be Clause concerning the leaving of major shareholders contained in the agreement, of which possibilities are various. The leaving shareholder may have had agreed to offer his portion to the remaining shareholders proportionate to the number of shares they are holding, or to offer to ones nominated by the remaining shareholders, etc. The valuation of shares to be offered may have been mentioned in the agreement. It could be by issuance price, book-value, market price, assessment by third party, etc. What they have agreed in the agreement could be anything, and we never know. If there is nothing in the agreement mentioning of the leaving of shareholders, his right to hold share would remain and if the others would like him to sell his portion, they have no way but to talk business with him. It is understandable, as it is about business. I believe the agreement is quite well-written, as those issues are not raised by MP at all, as presented in the summon.

If it is about business, like the issue mentioned about, it is acceptable for me. However, according to the summon, I cannot see any business issue at all. It does not even sound like claims for damage asserted to be resulted from the breach of agreement. It sounds like a tort claim to me, especially for the word "wrongfully". However, it is not presented in the summon on which grounds such claims is actually based. 

For the first point raised by MP, we could only guess from statement publicly released. There may be something more between them that has never been publicly announced. If it is as announced, the possibility to win this point is negative, IMHO. It was explicit that he was lost in the vote, either in aspect of being a shareholder or a director, and then expressed his consent to quit the band, i.e. Ytsejam Inc, as it seems to be. It may not be fair to him in terms of mates or friends, that no one agreed with him that the band should take 5-year break, but he was lost in the vote. IMHO, it could not be regarded as "wrongful" at all, as he was not forced to quit from the band or Ytsejam and it seems that no one was willing to kick him out, that it could be said that he was wrongfully excluded. I believe no one was, as they were all sincerely sad and heart-broken. However, we never know whether any reconcilement was offered to him, such as to make it 1 or 2-year other than 5-year which did not make him having no other choices at all but to quit. Still, I am quite certain that everyone has done their best, and the situation is so reluctant. On one hand, the timings were not so right for all of them, on the other hands, they are all have no choice but to carry one with the right persons that happen to be in the right time and the right place. I cannot see any element of "wrong" at all.

For the point concerning the name "Dream Theater", he did not claim that the band cease using the name "Dream Theater", but it seems like he wanted to claim his present or existence in the name. It could not be copyrighted for the name "Dream Theater", as it is not long or creative enough to possess originality. The possibility I could see is that "Dream Theater" is a registered trademark or service mark, and my guess is that Ytsejam holds the registration, not any individuals. I do not know much about U.S. laws, as I am a lawyer from the different side of the world, but I guess that, in this sense, consent from MP is not required.

At this point, I am so sorry for MP indeed. I can see that the name "Dream Theater" has been so important to him. I believe that it is not damages that he first thought of it as his right to the name of the band, but his relation and contribution to the name "Dream Theater" and as having been a band member for a major part of his life. If he is able to claim damage based on the ground of using it without consent, it means he deems that "Dream Theater" is a part of him forever, until the name does not exist any more. He would like to be recognized as a part of "Dream Theater" for ever, as least to him and current band members.

However, IMHO, as a lawyer, I always views that lawsuit should be the last resort for dispute resolution, when there is no other way that could be adopted. I am so sorry for all of them indeed.

[BlobVanDam]

It's a bit ironic that MP is lamenting the grind of 25 years of writing/touring with DT and needing a break while he is working on half a dozen side projects and touring with another band at the time. When MP wrote "Never Enough" to the fans, he should have looked in the mirror and instead wrote "Too Much". He just had too much on his plate and a burn-out was inevitable.

It's not ironic. From what I gather, it wasn't that he was tired of working at all, it was that he felt DT needed some time to refresh, which seems to have been brought on by playing with other bands and having much more fun with them. There is perhaps some irony in the fact that MP quit because he felt DT needed the break to reinvigorate them, and yet disagreeing and moving forth without him is exactly what achieved it for many people.

As much as I hate to admit it, this would have been the perfect time for the billionth rehash of the wife analogy.

[CodyWanKenobi]

I can just see MP in court now...

"But your honor... my dad named the band..."   

[Chrissalix]

[darkshade]

[ReaPsTA]

Bosk and Kon - Thank you for your legal explanations of this.

I can't lie, after some careful thought on this subject (I have absolutely no idea why I'm thinking carefully about this subject)... I think MP does deserve, after 25 years of helping build the bands popularity and proffesional connections, some residual compensation. No matter what happens as far as lawsuits and settlements, he does deserve some compensation. I think a lawsuit is well within his rights.

I don't appreciate him saying that he isn't standing in the way of the band while simultaneously suing them for the name rights. All he had to say was, "Legal issues need to be settled, and I wish them the best of luck."

More or less.  I don't see why MP wouldn't get money from DT.  If a lawsuit is what he has to do to get it, business is business.  I just hope he doesn't end up getting more money than any of the band members (like, if for some reason we found out MP was making more than a sixth of the band's money, I might scream with frustration about how even people leaving bands has no sense of justice).  I like to take Major Thirteenth's posts with a grain of salt (he's right about as often as he's wrong), but a world where Portnoy's paid more than Mangini to not be in Dream Theater does not compute.

Regardless of that, it's really none of my fucking business.

It wouldn't have been except he sued over the name.  Money's money.  Business is business.  Suing over the name for negotiating leverage means you're still acting like a scumbag.  Maybe I'm looking at this overly negatively, but MP winning control over the band's name would DESTROY their business.  As a fan of the band, the fact that MP even threatened to do this is frightening.

[jsem]

cough. 

*snip*

you just won the entire internet