Discuss everything about Mike Mangini's ADTOE performance

[Millais]

I think the mix will take some getting used to.  I mean, we are so used to having the drums very high up in the mix, that having them now in a normal range is something we all have to get used to.  I agree that there are a few moments where I wish they were higher up in the mix, like when doing a drum roll or hitting the toms, but overall, the level they are at is just fine, albeit different for DT. 

I think the mix is fine for the general stuff, but because there are more dynamics in the drums rather than being more compressed, the nuances get lost. So you can hear him pounding out a beat at a level that's just fine, but occasionally I've found myself sort of half missing a cool fill because it disappears into the background a bit, especially the really crazy fast stuff where he perhaps can't hit as hard as a regular beat.
So the dynamics of the drums are a bit of a double edged sword, I think.

that

this!

[Stoneyman]

Mangini did a great job for his first effort with DT.  MP's drums sat VERY high in the mix and Im sure that is the way they wanted them THEN.  However, I think that the new drum mix is more laid back so the other instruments get a chance to be heard.  Prior to this this, the sound had to be too hot just to hear everything.

I'd rather have a more laid back drum mix and hear Myung loud and clear than the way it used to be.

ADTOE has win written all over it.  The playing, production, hype, and promise of a cool new future is awesome.

The coolest band ever.

[Kotowboy]

I think the mix will take some getting used to.  I mean, we are so used to having the drums very high up in the mix, that having them now in a normal range is something we all have to get used to.  I agree that there are a few moments where I wish they were higher up in the mix, like when doing a drum roll or hitting the toms, but overall, the level they are at is just fine, albeit different for DT. 

I think the mix is fine for the general stuff, but because there are more dynamics in the drums rather than being more compressed, the nuances get lost. So you can hear him pounding out a beat at a level that's just fine, but occasionally I've found myself sort of half missing a cool fill because it disappears into the background a bit, especially the really crazy fast stuff where he perhaps can't hit as hard as a regular beat.
So the dynamics of the drums are a bit of a double edged sword, I think.

that

this!

those !

[Super Dude]

I can see what people mean about MM being low in the mix.  In my car I could hear him just fine, but then on my computer I couldn't hear him as well.  Now I'm listening on my iPod and I can't hear any of the fills or anything cool.

[johncal]

The album needed more cowbell.

Just saying.



-Marc.

He uses 6 of them in the beginning of one of the songs. I forget which one he said, but That's enough for me

[johncal]

I can see what people mean about MM being low in the mix.  In my car I could hear him just fine, but then on my computer I couldn't hear him as well.  Now I'm listening on my iPod and I can't hear any of the fills or anything cool.

Quick, get back to your car!

[Kotowboy]

I can see what people mean about MM being low in the mix.  In my car I could hear him just fine, but then on my computer I couldn't hear him as well.  Now I'm listening on my iPod and I can't hear any of the fills or anything cool.

Quick, get back to your car!

ADTOE sounds smoking in Lars Ulrich's car. 

[Cruithne]

Overall I really like it! The bag of tricks had gotten pretty picked over in the last few albums and its nice to hear some new ideas.

Some nitpicks though:

The hi-hats. Don't care for their sound and they are used too frequently and too boringly. There are several points in the album where I'm thinking (though I'm not a drummer), "shouldn't there be some ride here instead of hats?" or "couldn't he be a little more adventurous with the cymbals"?

Yeah, this. I think this is what produces a slight feeling that I can best describe as "stiffness" in some of the playing.

Overall I do like the drumming and from what other people are saying I think the quality of the playing might simply take slightly longer to reveal itself (for the likes of me, at least) than MP's in-your-face style normally did with DT. This I neither see as a good or bad thing, it's just different.

[WildeSilas]

I mentioned in two previous threads about Magnini playing in two time signatures (sometimes 3) at the same time. Someone (I don't recall who) responded that I "obviously didn't know what I was talking about," and re-explained what I had said in such a way that it actually was not what I meant. Here's an excerpt from Mangini's Music Radar interview today where he explains in his own words what I was trying to say:

How exactly do you approach polyrhythms in regards to Dream Theater?

"It's a fairly wide topic, but the number one goal is to be the connective tissue in Dream Theater. For instance, if there are two separate lines being played by any of the other four guys – this includes vocal parts, too – then what I do is tie the band's parts together. By default, this creates other rhythms but not necessarily polyrhythms. Sometimes there are polyrhythms created.

"Now, the way I approach it is, I'm playing in a different time signature than the rest of the band. For example, in the song Outcry, the band is changing time signatures over 10 times during one of the repetitive lines. They're changing between 2 and 3 – two notes and three notes. While they're doing that, I'm also doing it with my feet, but my hands are in 7/16 – a completely different time signature. It's both a math thing, but it's something that's a lot of fun, too."

This explains my defense of MM when people call his playing "simplistic" or by the numbers on ADTOE. He does the above in many places on the album - it is a subtle, but extremely difficult task that requires more independence between the limbs and separation of mind than most are capable of. Compare it to watching 4-5 documentaries at the same time and trying to absorb them all perfectly. The human mind simply does not work this way without an intense amount of very difficult self-discipline and practice, and I'm not even sure it can be learned - it might be that he was just born with a brain wired to handle the task. Either way, drummers do not play like this.

This, my friends, is what MM brings to the table for DT. He has been playing this way for ages, and it's what's made him famous in the drumming world. To hear it now applied to songs written by DT is just a dream come true. But make no mistake, the man is frequently playing in 2, if not 3 time signatures at the same time, which is fucking ridiculous. It may not sound as flashy as some of MP's signature stuff, but if applied to the writing process of the next DT album, that album may in fact cause the mind of every single living organism on the planet to explode.

edit: it should be noted that MM slipped a single moment of this polyrhythmic playing into Extreme's Waiting For The Punchline, and once or twice with Vai, but obviously he is off the leash with DT and can apply it wherever he deems it necessary. This speaks HUGE FUCKING VOLUMES about his freedom to re-imagine JP's drum machine parts because as a guitar player, polyrhythms have never even been on JP's radar, much less something he would try to create with a drum machine. This comes from MM listening to the instruments very carefully and applying his signature style to the blend of those instruments.

[7StringedBeast]

I approve this post ^^

[ronrule]

While the polyrhythms are admittedly impressive from a technical ability standpoint, do they add to the compositions? At this point I'm not so sure. Because for ADTOE, those multiple time signatures are already "there" for the most part, right?

They are impossible for mortals to play, but are they challenging to compose? All you need to do is take some weirdo riffs JP, Wiz, and Ninja are composing, and match them to your toms, hats, kicks, respectively. relatively easy to compose with drum software; difficult to play with one brain!

It would be like if JP could play rhythm and lead for the TITL intro at the same time with one hand. Would that bare fact make the individual parts better or more interesting?

[ronrule]

This speaks HUGE FUCKING VOLUMES about his freedom to re-imagine JP's drum machine parts because as a guitar player, polyrhythms have never even been on JP's radar, much less something he would try to create with a drum machine. This comes from MM listening to the instruments very carefully and applying his signature style to the blend of those instruments.

I don't agree with this. Polyrhythms would be on any accomplished musician's radar. And we know from interviews that JP was pretty proud of the complexity of some of his drum software compositions, even wondering if one part was "even physically possible to play". But we also know that Mangini is *very* into them and into matching what others are playing. I'm just not sure it tells us much either way about who composed what and whether it's better that way.

[johncal]

While the polyrhythms are admittedly impressive from a technical ability standpoint, do they add to the compositions? At this point I'm not so sure. Because for ADTOE, those multiple time signatures are already "there" for the most part, right?

They are impossible for mortals to play, but are they challenging to compose? All you need to do is take some weirdo riffs JP, Wiz, and Ninja are composing, and match them to your toms, hats, kicks, respectively. relatively easy to compose with drum software; difficult to play with one brain!

It would be like if JP could play rhythm and lead for the TITL intro at the same time with one hand. Would that bare fact make the individual parts better or more interesting?

I guess that's hard to determine. Part of what Mike Margini said (in his newest interview) was "Dream Theater songs aren't like that. The old songs take extraordinary periods of time for memorization, and the new songs are no different. Plus, I'm doing something physically ultra-difficult, which is the use of coordination and polyrhythms. This is new for the band." So he's added somthing new which is now new for the band. So I'm guessing that while DT already had been using multiple time signatures, they're now doing new things with them because of Mike's capabilities, which is pretty cool.

[WildeSilas]

Yes, the polyrhythms are "already there" but very few drummers (MM is the only one I know of) actually delve in and play them. Mostly it's because they can't. I'm not saying JP can't think or play that way, I just can't cite any examples of him doing it, which makes it unlikely that he programmed them like that. I'm not even claiming that everyone will enjoy or appreciate what it brings to the songs. But to call his drumming "meh" or pedestrian is criminal and severely understating his abilities.

[johncal]

Yes, the polyrhythms are "already there" but very few drummers (MM is the only one I know of) actually delve in and play them. Mostly it's because they can't. I'm not saying JP can't think or play that way, I just can't cite any examples of him doing it, which makes it unlikely that he programmed them like that. I'm not even claiming that everyone will enjoy or appreciate what it brings to the songs. But to call his drumming "meh" or pedestrian is criminal and severely understating his abilities.

Calling Mike Mangini's drumming "meh" or pedestrian may not be criminal, but it is an opinion that clearly runs counter to proven fact.

[zipporaid]

I find that his playing is MUCH more complementary to the band as a whole, which I think lends
to a lot of the tracks sounding different from what MP would have done.  Whereas MP would take
the lead of the band and add a huge fill here and there, MM mirrors and unisons a LOT of cool
runs with either JP, JR.  I can also tell (as a bass player) that he's dddeeeeffffnintely locking
in with JMX more than portnoy did.

[Jamesman42]

I really like his style. I think he was really restricted just because he wasn't a songwriter. He did great for what he could contribute. i can't wait to see how his presence in the songwriting influences the next DT album.

[gm5k]

My personal favorite Mangini moment is his fill at 8:44 on BAI.  Just...perfection     He's so damn tasteful 

[Cranky]

I agree with the general consensus,
he played great for the most part, but his drums were turned down way too much in the mix.. And the guitar is turned up way too loud, along with the vocals, and then everything else that is on top of that just drowns the drums out.
He actually shines on the more simple songs, or more straight-forward parts because he just brings so much conviction in his playing.

To follow the forum trend of rating everything DT related, I'll rate Mangini's drumming on this album a 8.6/10.
This puts it just behind BC&SL and SFAM in my rankings of best percussion on albums by DT.

[reneranucci]

I don't find his parts especially fun to listen to.

[CrimsonSunrise]

I think the mix will take some getting used to.  I mean, we are so used to having the drums very high up in the mix, that having them now in a normal range is something we all have to get used to.  I agree that there are a few moments where I wish they were higher up in the mix, like when doing a drum roll or hitting the toms, but overall, the level they are at is just fine, albeit different for DT.

This  EGGZACTLY.  We are so used to the over the top mix, that this sounds weak in comparrison.  Actually, now the mix is proper, will just take some getting used to.  I also agree things might be a bit diff. on the next album if he writes his own parts and has creative input into the arrangements.

[MajorMatt]

I think it takes a few listens at least to comprehend what he's doing behind the kit. Some of the stuff he's doing is really insane but he makes it sound so effortless, and I think that's part of the reason his playing is being underated on this album.

[rumborak]

Yeah, this ^^^

I think it's like with Gavin Harrison, who will specifically work on making his drumming fit like a glove with the rest of the music, despite that it might be in a completely different time signature. MP's drumming is much more explicit in that regard, you know every single fill and roll when it's played.

rumborak

[Perpetual Change]

The first couple times listening to the album, I didn't really notice him. But last night I decided to just lay in bed and listen solely to what he was doing and... my mind is officially blown. 

If you really pay attention to what he's doing, it's pretty mind-blowing. On the surface, his drumming is "just there", but the minute you decide to really listen to what he's doing, it becomes apparent how fantastic of a player he is. It definitely does remind me of listening to Gavin Harrison, actually.

[cramx3]

I very much enjoy MM's drums on this album.  I agree that the mix is a little too low and it makes you have to pay close attention to hear all the drums, but I think someone had to be turned down to turn the bass up a bit.  I think the balance is better for the overall album, but since Ive been used to listening to DT with the drums louder, its a bit different.  Im not sure if I would have known someone else was playing drums if you didn't tell me, but I think that works in DTs favor.  MP was a big part of the band and if there was a big change in the drumming, it might be tough to swallow for the first album.  I think DT did it right, the band works really well right now.

[MajorMatt]

I think (as others have said) that the drum mix is perfect as it is, it's just we're so used to it being so loud. I love the mix on this album, once you are used to it it sounds great - very balanced - its awesome!

[MarlaHooch]

I'm starting to think it's half that the drums are mixed too low and half that Mangini's playing is so awesome and the drum sound is so good that I want it to be louder.

Either way he is the man.

[Priest of Syrinx]

I'm starting to think it's half that the drums are mixed too low and half that Mangini's playing is so awesome and the drum sound is so good that I want it to be louder.

Either way he is the man.

+1

[Rainee100]

Just saying that I loved MP's playing and showmanship BUT:
Where MP inspired you to pick up drumsticks, MM inspires you to simply put them back down and sit in awe.

That happened to me with guitar and John. 

[randymarsh]

LNF my friends. Awesome drumming 

[ReaPsTA]

Just saying that I loved MP's playing and showmanship BUT:
Where MP inspired you to pick up drumsticks, MM inspires you to simply put them back down and sit in awe.

That happened to me with guitar and John. 

[CrimsonSunrise]

I have a real bad habit of just cranking the volume when listening to new music (actually all music    )  I'm here at work all night and have my earbuds in, at very low volume so I can hear my work radio.  What I'm hearing at reduced volume is some incredible articulated, tasty drumming.  Picking up so much more than when I'm cranking it up.  He's really done a spectacular job 

[axeman90210]

I dig MM's playing, but the more subtle style and the lower mix don't make all the awesome jump out at you right from the first listen. I don't know what it is, but there's just something about the fill he plays halfway through the first chorus Bridges in the Sky that I absolutely love.

[?]

The machine-gun double bass at the end of BITS makes me

[FlashCE]

Mangini's playing isn't really that creative on here, but then again JP wrote most of it I would imagine.