Comparing songs from ADTOE with their I&W counterparts

[Orthogonal]

[ My biggest problem is that people aren't consistent with what they're arguing.

I think there's only one person in this thread guilty of that... The rest of us discussing the topic are doing so with great appreciation and respect for what the band has done.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

That was an amazing post.

[duncan3dc]

What some have seen as attack and insult, is the sort of stuff college theory nerds discuss at lunch. lol Because we know what Beethoven did, we're hardly going to damn DT for doing it too. lol 

This whole quote (which I took out of the quote to minimize space) is a very good respresentation of the respectable argument from that side. The above bolded part is a point i've been trying to convey for the past few pages. The fact that DT has done this for years, that no one should be surprised or extremely pissed off because it. And if they are mad about it, then the outrage should span over the MP-era songs as well. My biggest problem is that people aren't consistent with what they're arguing.

Do you have some examples of times they've done this over the years? I'm really keen to take a look at them

[ResultsMayVary]

[ My biggest problem is that people aren't consistent with what they're arguing.

I think there's only one person in this thread guilty of that... The rest of us discussing the topic are doing so with great appreciation and respect for what the band has done.

Indeed, hence why I haven't posted in a while before the post you quoted. I didn't have anything constructive to add to the respectful discussion that was going on over the past few pages. 

[ResultsMayVary]

What some have seen as attack and insult, is the sort of stuff college theory nerds discuss at lunch. lol Because we know what Beethoven did, we're hardly going to damn DT for doing it too. lol 

This whole quote (which I took out of the quote to minimize space) is a very good respresentation of the respectable argument from that side. The above bolded part is a point i've been trying to convey for the past few pages. The fact that DT has done this for years, that no one should be surprised or extremely pissed off because it. And if they are mad about it, then the outrage should span over the MP-era songs as well. My biggest problem is that people aren't consistent with what they're arguing.

Do you have some examples of times they've done this over the years? I'm really keen to take a look at them

Off the top of my head, Endless Sacrifice/Metropolis, Disappear/Space Dye-Vest, Never Enough/Stockholm Syndrome, etc. These have the same amount of structural similarities that the current discussion songs do.

[Metabog]

What some have seen as attack and insult, is the sort of stuff college theory nerds discuss at lunch. lol Because we know what Beethoven did, we're hardly going to damn DT for doing it too. lol 

This whole quote (which I took out of the quote to minimize space) is a very good respresentation of the respectable argument from that side. The above bolded part is a point i've been trying to convey for the past few pages. The fact that DT has done this for years, that no one should be surprised or extremely pissed off because it. And if they are mad about it, then the outrage should span over the MP-era songs as well. My biggest problem is that people aren't consistent with what they're arguing.

Yeah, I've been making fun of people dissecting the album, but this has converted me.

[jsem]

1. OTBOA vs PMU
2. Lost Not Forgotten vs UAGM
3. This Is the Life vs. Another Day
4. Far From Heaven/BAI vs WFS/LTL
5. Outcry vs Metropolis Pt. 1
6. Bridges in the Sky vs Take the Time
7. BMUBMD vs Surrounded

7-0 for I&W.

[reo73]

The only problem I have with all this is that the OP started this thread for those of us who want to legitimately dissect and discuss the similarities, but a lot of other people came into this thread to "heckle" those of us who were doing it and forced us to get into this type of convincing type debate.

[duncan3dc]

Do you have some examples of times they've done this over the years? I'm really keen to take a look at them

Off the top of my head, Endless Sacrifice/Metropolis, Disappear/Space Dye-Vest, Never Enough/Stockholm Syndrome, etc. These have the same amount of structural similarities that the current discussion songs do.

Endless Sacrifice/Metropolis - I was kinda with you up until the 2nd chorus, but after the instrumental section from each song, I really can't match anything up
Disappear/Space Dye-Vest - Again I'm with you until the "Dry in Houston" part, but after that I can't tie anything else up.
If you'd post your breakdowns of these songs maybe I could follow those, but right now I don't see that they're on the same level as what we're talking about here

Never Enough/Stockholm Syndrome - I'm not really interested in them using structures from other bands, to me that's completely separate from what I love about Dramatic Turn.

[MarlaHooch]

The only problem I have with all this is that the OP started this thread for those of us who want to legitimately dissect and discuss the similarities, but a lot of other people came into this thread to "heckle" those of us who were doing it and forced us to get into this type of convincing type debate.

This.  And the post from the MP forum is spot on as far as how musicians dissect the similarities and it was very well-written.  There are obviously differences of opinion as to the band's intent/motive for doing this, but the parallels are most certainly (intentionally) there and it's not complicated at all.

[senecadawg2]

i just listened to Build Me Up, Break Me Down again. I'm starting to hear the similarities between it and Surrounded.

[Orthogonal]

i just listened to Build Me Up, Break Me Down again. I'm starting to hear the similarities between it and Surrounded.

Careful, I don't think this thread is ready for that type of statement, we're just starting to get people to come around to LNF/UAGM and Outcry/Metropolis comparisons.

[senecadawg2]

Sarcasm is pretty difficult to pick up on an online thread...  I think

[reo73]

I Charted 'This Is the Life' to 'Another Day' if anyone cares...

AD Time stamp on left / TITL on right

0:00  INTRO 1: Acoustic Arpeggio   0:00
0:14  INTRO 2: Guitar Solo over Full Band playing  0:17
0:30  VERSE 1A: Piano Only w/vocals  0:44
0:41  VERSE 1A:  Guitar Volume Swells Enter  1:02
0:57  VERSE 1B:  Progression changes, clean guitar overlay  1:17
1:11  TRANSITION:  Intro 1 Reprise w/solo  1:45

(Note for TRANSITION:  In AD this is the intro chords with the sax solo.  In TITL they expand on this with a Mark Knopfler style guitar solo first and then the Keys solo over the Intro Chords starting at 2:03)

1:24  VERSE 2A:  Full Band  2:19
1:51  VERSE 2B:  VERSE 1B Reprise w/Full Band.  Music Builds   2:36
2:03  BRIDGE 1A:  Sustained Guitars Chords w/keys (No Vocals)   3:04
2:19  BRIDGE 1A:  Vocals Enter  3:25
2:32  BRIDGE 1B:  Progression Changes and builds  3:42
2:58  GUITAR SOLO:  Guitar Solo over verse progression power chords  4:25
3:27  VERSE 2B REPRISE:  Full Band w/Vocals  5:03
3:44  OUTRO:  Intro w/solo over  5:50 

(Note for OUTRO:  In AD this is the Intro 1 chords with sax solo over.  In TITL they wind down with Intro 2 Reprise first then go to Intro 1 starting at 6:26)

Overall, the structure is very similar, enough that I do believe it was another intentional nod to the existing chart for AD, but they did embellish along the way and the sections in TITL are longer and more expanded, especially in the Bridge sections.

Flame Away  

[Orthogonal]

I like how you add the relevant play times to the structure. It makes it a lot easier to see. Please do more charts if you have the time.

Some songs seem to follow the I&W counterpart quite rigidly, others are less so, but with enough similarities to acknowledge the influence. 

[SystematicThought]

Any comparisons, I felt were slight nods to an album. The ending of Outcry reminded me of the end of SDOIT. I saw that as a nod and not a "Let's copy that song, we are out of ideas!" I found it cool actually

[Perpetual Change]

What some have seen as attack and insult, is the sort of stuff college theory nerds discuss at lunch. lol Because we know what Beethoven did, we're hardly going to damn DT for doing it too. lol 

This whole quote (which I took out of the quote to minimize space) is a very good respresentation of the respectable argument from that side. The above bolded part is a point i've been trying to convey for the past few pages. The fact that DT has done this for years, that no one should be surprised or extremely pissed off because it. And if they are mad about it, then the outrage should span over the MP-era songs as well. My biggest problem is that people aren't consistent with what they're arguing.

Yeah, the problem isn't the idea itself, but the people's attitudes. Even though none of the songs are the or remoately sound the same, I can see how maybe three of the songs have similar structures. The rest, not really. So, basically, the problem is that posters like Marlahooch are making 3 solid connections and 5 really, really tenuous ones, and then when people tell him he's reaching he sticks out his tongue and runs off for his premature victory lap. It's pretty silly.

[Enc3f4L0]

I never said the SONGS are exactly the same.  I said the ARRANGEMENTS are.  I'm quite sure you know it too.  Wow you're annoying.  Now we have three people on this board that I'm never responding to again.  You're welcome!

I thought you said you have been studying musical theory for years?

You said structures before, then arrangements, then structures, and now arrangements again. You do know that structures and arrangments are two COMPLETELY different concepts in music theory, right? The arrangements could not be more different between all these songs that you are comparing. The structures, however, are similar in a few back-to-back sections.

For someone who is nitpicking at the difference between arrangement and structure, you seem to be VERY confused about the differences between "EVIDENCE" and "CONFESSION/STATEMENT".

Let's do a little exercise:

Watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otBFsw3O8VA

It features Mr. Ex-President Bill Clinton saying "I did not have sexual relations with that woman".
Now, the hard part... Is that "EVIDENCE" or a "STATEMENT" in your understanding?

If you answer correctly, we'll move on to another exercise, featuring Mr. O.J. Simpson.

[MarlaHooch]

What some have seen as attack and insult, is the sort of stuff college theory nerds discuss at lunch. lol Because we know what Beethoven did, we're hardly going to damn DT for doing it too. lol 

This whole quote (which I took out of the quote to minimize space) is a very good respresentation of the respectable argument from that side. The above bolded part is a point i've been trying to convey for the past few pages. The fact that DT has done this for years, that no one should be surprised or extremely pissed off because it. And if they are mad about it, then the outrage should span over the MP-era songs as well. My biggest problem is that people aren't consistent with what they're arguing.

Yeah, the problem isn't the idea itself, but the people's attitudes. Even though none of the songs are the or remoately sound the same, I can see how maybe three of the songs have similar structures. The rest, not really. So, basically, the problem is that posters like Marlahooch are making 3 solid connections and 5 really, really tenuous ones, and then when people tell him he's reaching he sticks out his tongue and runs off for his premature victory lap. It's pretty silly.

Um, actually, I can only vouch for PMU/OTBoA and UAGM/LNF and I haven't even looked for the connections to Surrounded, Another Day, or WFS/LTL.  I don't agree with the Outcry/Metropolis connection with the exception of the beginning through the first verse.  With all due respect, reading my posts would help, because putting words in people's mouths is silly 


I'm not reaching with those two comparisons.  Once again, my only argument can be expressed in Rush terms:  If Neil Peart quit the band, Geddy and Alex subsequently went on a press junket claiming they were a new band with a new beginning and that the writing process was so much smoother without Peart around...and then proceeded to release a record containing songs built off the exact structures to "The Spirit Of The Radio" and "Tom Sawyer", which Peart contributed to, I'd think that was pretty lame.  Same exact analogy here.  I don't understand why having that opinion is so controversial.  I never said DT suck, I never said the album was bad, I just said I thought it was an embarrassing/ill-timed thing for them to do and that it could affect their career.  Then I get responses either like yours, or others saying I'm some MP fanboy who would come up with any reason to hate the album (I don't), etc.  It's ridiculous.


P.S.  To the above poster - love it!  Hilarious.

[The Dark Master]

So today, I listened to the album while actually trying to look for similarities, even going so far as to actually play some songs back to back with their I&W counterparts.  Here's my opinions:

On the Backs of Angels & Pull Me Under

Ok, listening to this song with PMU in mind, and I can definitely see the same song structure.  From the moment that acoustic melody starts, virtually every OTBOA section has an equivalent in PMU.  Hell, you can practically sing PMU over this song.   I guess these two do have a lot more in common then I had originally thought, so I'll give in on this one.

Build Me Up, Break Me Down & Surrounded 

  These two songs have virtually nothing in common.  Even based purely on structure, Surrounded had very irregular verses, while BMUBMD has a very symmetrical verse-chorus-verse-chorus pattern.  No way in hell

Lost Not Forgotten & Under A Glass Moon

Well, this one I noticed the similarities from the beginning.  Aside from the piano intro and some bits in the instrumental section, LNF is clearly based off the UAGM skeleton.

This Is The Life & Another Day

I'm on the fence about this one.  On the one hand, the first half of this song syncs up very well with the first half of Another Day.  Once we reach the main solo section, though, the song branches off in a very different direction, and even when the chorus is reprised after the solo, the ending coda is built in a way that bears little resemblance to the finale of Another Day.  I'm will to accept the notion that this TITL took some inspiration from AD, but only the first half has a similar structure.

Bridges In The Sky &  Take the Time

Once the main riffs start kicking in, I can see a resemblance here.  However, the arrangement of the verses are totally different.  TTT had two completely different verses followed by a chorus followed by a new verse followed by a chorus followed by a unique fourth verse, while BITS has a very symmetrical verse-pre-chorus-chorus structure, with repeat of the main riffs after the first chorus that has no equivalent in TTT.  The instrumental sections are rather different, and the endings have very little in common.  So I guess they took some inspiration from the TTT riffs, but the overall structure of the songs are far from the same.

Outcry & Metropolis

Much like with OTBOA, once I went back to listen it's I&W sibling in mind, the similar charting stuck out like a sore thumb, and I could practically sing the Metropolis lyrics while listening.  The thing is, though, Outcry seems to have a chorus of sorts that follows each of the first two choruses, while Metropolis had no real "chorus".  Other then that, the rest of the songs are pretty similar base purely on structure, but the arrangements of the vocal sections is a pretty major deviation.  I'm willing to concede that Outcry is at least based off the Metropolis chart, but they defiantly took some liberties with the vocal parts in the beginning to make room for an actual, repeating verse, and in doing so, fundamentally changed the structure of the song as a whole. 

Far From Heaven & Wait For Sleep

I can kind of see the similarities here, but I'm not fully convinced this song was directly based of off WFS.  FFH has much more fully developed choruses and endings, and even has a closing vocal part that WFS clearly lacks.  Much like the TITL/AD comparison, I'm still not decided on whether or not I agree that these were based off the same charts.  There are some structural similarities, but there are also some pretty dramatic differences, and the similarities are not very distinctive to WFS (consider Vacant), so I'm not so sure on this one. 

Breaking All Illusions & Learning To Live

Along with  LNF/UGAM, this was one of the few comparisons I could hear right from the beginning.  While there are some liberties taken in the second half of the song, by and large, the composition as a whole follows the same structure as LTL.  Aside from some different instrumental sections thrown in here and there throughout the second half, the abrupt ending after the final chorus is also a major deviation from the famous lengthy finale to LTL.  Overall, though, there is clearly some structural referencing here, so I willingly acknowledge this one as well.

Conclusion

So we have one song that pretty much follows an I&W chart verbatim (OTBOA) and two that are closely based of I&W songs, if not exact structural replicas (LNF, BAI), and one (Outcry) that is strongly based off an I&W song, but makes some drastic changes to the original structure.  Beyond that, TITL and FFH may have taken some structural inspiration from AD and WFS, respectively, but as a whole deviate far enough from the original to the point where I would consider them to be new song structures in their own right.  BITS bears only the most passing of resemblances to TTT, certainly not enough to convince me that they are based off the same charts (more likely BITS just takes some inspiration from TTT in it's riffage).  Lastly, BMUBMD and Beneath the Surface have no real equivalents on I&W.

Overall, while four direct comparisons are rather striking, the album as a whole does not really resemble I&W.  Beyond issues of charts and structure, musically, the albums are very different, and when considering the entire record, I really do not see how Dream Theater can be accused any lack of originality.  They are some very smart guys in that band, and I really don't think they do anything by accident, but writing new songs around old structures was probably just some nod and wink to the hardcore fans, rather then "desperate attempts of secretly re-writing the past".  If they had really wanted to replicate Images and Words, then the would have done just that, and crucially, they would have used the same structure for the album as a whole.  The four songs that are undeniably based of off I&W compositions are, with the exception of OTBOA, not even in the same place on the album as their I&W counterparts.  I guess you could argue that both BAI and LTL are track 8 but the fact that BAI is not the album ender is a fairly significant deviation in the overall structure of the album, as ending the album with a ballad rather then an epic is a pretty significant difference.

So I'm done here.  If I do hear more of a resemblance with any more tracks, I'll come back and say so, but my original opinion on the record as a singular work still stands: the differences vastly outweigh the similarities, and there are many bands that have borrowed from their own past far more blatantly the Dream Theater has on this album.  Compared to the AC/DCs, Motorheads and Metallicas of the world, Dream Theater is far from being a band that just tries to re-make the same album ad-nausea.

[Enc3f4L0]

The fact that Mr. James Labrie twitted "Hey he's having fun, beyond that, I think absolutely nothing of it. Take care." and people take it as evidence to dismiss any theories about the ADToE / I&W similarities is what to me is "laughable".

What the hell does that mean any way? "Hey he's having fun" I get that part... and yes, I am having fun, or at least trying to with other like-minded people, in the midst of all the hate coming from nay-sayers who attempt to lock up every thread started on the matter.

"I think absolutely nothing of it." is the part I don't get... Is that supposed to mean "He's wrong!"?
To me that statement (key word: statement, not evidence) is much closer to a "No comment." than anything else.

IMO, if he wanted to flat out dismiss my crack-head theories he could've just said "He's just a fan having fun, but no, the band did not make use of any I&W charts!"
But then again... that would be making a comittment, and a "No comment" is always a smart thing to do for a public person in a difficult spot (it buys the band time to evaluate the situation, pros and cons, and agree on a common answer).

Anyway...
I am now pretty sure the band will not come forward and confirm the use of any I&W charts. Not because I don't think it happened (I still strongy believe it did), or because it wasn't intentional (IMO it was intentional, I don't believe in a coincidence of this magnitude, you might however), but because I now think all of this was never meant see the light of day and be discussed by the fans. What leads me to this conclusion? They are being vague on interviews, running around the subject when it's brought up, and haven't come out in public so far with a strong decided answer. That and the fact that I received an email from a very pissed off insider, accusing me of some pretty unfair things, in a way only someone who is typing with an (infuriated) heart - and no thought - would do (I don't think even MP wore his heart so up front on his sleeves like this, sort of way).

Let's just say that if the band does come out confirming any of this I will be VERY SURPRISED at this point.

Having said that, regardless of their official public statement on the matter, I'll stand by my conclusions.
A statement isn't proof. It's just that, a statement.
If statements solved cases, people would just ask suspects if they are guilty or not and sentence them according to their answers.

Unfortunately, people are a little more complicated than that.

You have to keep in mind that Dream Theater is a business. It's a money making machine, and the 5 musicians are just the tip of the iceberg.
Not everything that goes on behind the scenes of a business is allowed to be revealed to the public, and with a band it's no different. Some things are in the best interest of the band to remain hidden, for whatever reasons. The reasons might be anything from legal issues, sale/marketing strategies, band's image development... There are lawyers and press people to help out the band in elaborating the "correct" answers for every delicate situation when they arrise.

This is getting longer than I expected, but my point is, if you honestly think than an "official statement" from a band/enterprise the caliber of Dream Theater is the judge's hammer to a case, then I strongly suggest you to be just a little bit more skeptical with how you deal with life in general, before you hurt yourself in any way.

Note that I am not calling Dream Theater liars should they respond to these theories negatively. Just that I won't think less of my discoveries because of it.
I believe in my ears, and I believe in the musical knowledge I've acquired so far.

I am however very interested in this debate, and will enjoy reading any post from people that disagree with my conclusions if they intelligently attempt to present evidence to back up their statements (such as charts from those who claim "A Rite of Passage" is as similar to "Pull me Under" as "On the Backs of Angels" is) instead of trying to diqualify/ridicule/offend us and ending our threads because you don't feel this should be discussed.

[theseoafs]

Note that I am not calling Dream Theater liars should they respond to these theories negatively. Just that I won't think less of my discoveries because of it.
I believe in my ears, and I believe in the musical knowledge I've acquired so far.

JLB's "I think nothing of it" tweet was in fact denying the copying of the charts; it was much less of a "no comment" and much more of a casual dismissal. At this point, you're getting awfully close to calling him a liar.

[Orthogonal]

It probably is more of a "no comment" on JLB's part. If it were true he wouldn't spill the beans since song composition is JP's department.

[Enc3f4L0]

However, look at the bolded section there, what Portnoy (and Hooch) and many others have done is use this similarity as a launching point to attack the current output of the band.  They have used it as a way of diminishing the new album and thereby diminishing the quality of the music.  Even Thiago, whose initial analysis is highly flawed overall, may not have "intended" it to be a launching point, he very quickly jumped on the bandwagon to diminish the band's work.   ADTOE is not I&W pt.2, it isn't even structured the same as an album and I think what rankles some is that those who are most loudly making the comparisons seem to be doing it not out of love of the music or band, but out of some malice to the current line-up of the band.

Really? I "jumped on the bandwagon to diminish the band's work"? 
You think just because I don't post here often you can claim shit and not have anything to back it up?

Please quote me where I've diminished the band's work because of my theories.
If anything, I've been repeating myself endlessly to fans with reading/interpreting issues of how much I liked the album regardless of how they wrote it, and that I thought the I&W nuggets were cool.

[theseoafs]

However, look at the bolded section there, what Portnoy (and Hooch) and many others have done is use this similarity as a launching point to attack the current output of the band.  They have used it as a way of diminishing the new album and thereby diminishing the quality of the music.  Even Thiago, whose initial analysis is highly flawed overall, may not have "intended" it to be a launching point, he very quickly jumped on the bandwagon to diminish the band's work.   ADTOE is not I&W pt.2, it isn't even structured the same as an album and I think what rankles some is that those who are most loudly making the comparisons seem to be doing it not out of love of the music or band, but out of some malice to the current line-up of the band.

Really? I "jumped on the bandwagon to diminish the band's work"? 
You think just because I don't post here often you can claim shit and not have anything to back it up?

Please quote me where I've diminished the band's work because of my theories.
If anything, I've been repeating myself endlessly to fans with reading/interpreting issues of how much I liked the album regardless of how they wrote it, and that I thought the I&W nuggets were cool.

While you're here, a quick question for you: you said that you believed the piano intro to Lost Not Forgotten was composed after the rest of the song had been composed based on Under a Glass Moon's skeleton. Why should they have done this, if they were just "cool nuggets"? Doesn't that make it seem like they should have been hiding it?

That's one of several ideologically messy things in your essay which did indeed diminish the band's work.

[Ħ]

I don't really think you can compare the two albums at all.  They're so different.

[Perpetual Change]

***

I think all James was saying is that you're reaching and jumping to conclusions, but have it if you enjoy doing that.

That's pretty much what most people are saying.

[Enc3f4L0]

Note that I am not calling Dream Theater liars should they respond to these theories negatively. Just that I won't think less of my discoveries because of it.
I believe in my ears, and I believe in the musical knowledge I've acquired so far.

JLB's "I think nothing of it" tweet was in fact denying the copying of the charts; it was much less of a "no comment" and much more of a casual dismissal. At this point, you're getting awfully close to calling him a liar.

I'd hate to call the man a liar.
In that case, here's my tweet about his tweet.

"ThiagoCamposVRA: Regarding @piratecjs ' tweet, I think absolutely nothing of it."

Better?

[Perpetual Change]

Better?

Honestly, you're coming across as extremely bitter.

I'm not trying to be mean or insulting, but just helpful, so please don't take this the wrong way or as a personal attack. But dude: get over yourself.  Your observations about ADTOE are not scripture, and your conclusions (especially in terms of 'the charts') are strained as many people have pointed out many times.

[Adami]

Does anyone else's copy of OTBOA end abruptly? I think mine's broken.

[wolfking]

I really don't understand why all this is getting compared so much.  OTBOA is a little similar to PMU as far as structure goes, but that's really about it IMO.  And even if they are, most bands stick to a similar style and structure.  A lot of bands can have songs that are identical in structure, melodies, length etc.

[theseoafs]

Note that I am not calling Dream Theater liars should they respond to these theories negatively. Just that I won't think less of my discoveries because of it.
I believe in my ears, and I believe in the musical knowledge I've acquired so far.

JLB's "I think nothing of it" tweet was in fact denying the copying of the charts; it was much less of a "no comment" and much more of a casual dismissal. At this point, you're getting awfully close to calling him a liar.

I'd hate to call the man a liar.
In that case, here's my tweet about his tweet.

"ThiagoCamposVRA: Regarding @piratecjs ' tweet, I think absolutely nothing of it."

Better?

Sure, that's fair. I always found your analysis interesting and well-intentioned, but I'd maybe lay off the "they did all of this intentionally" stuff, because all signs are currently pointing to them NOT having done it intentionally. Until one of the band members directly gives us a reason to believe otherwise, we can assume it's coincidence.

That it is a coincidence isn't completely unlikely, anyway. I think it's perfectly rational and legal that JP and JR, during the Great Portnoy Debacle, spun I&W a few times, whose unique structural quirks then got stuck in their heads as they set out to compose the new album. This is called "being influenced by something". This sort of thing happens to artists all the time and I don't find fault with the composers. If anything it gives the hardcore DT listener an intimate look into their compositional minds. Not to mention that the music is 100% original and no particular track calls to mind another artist; it's classic DT all the way through. Structural similarities, meanwhile, mean next to nothing in the world of artistic ethics; the claim that another artist had "stolen another's structure" would not hold water in a lawsuit. Here, something happened which could be mistaken for something else, but if that something else had happened it wouldn't even be that much of a problem.

When it comes right down to it, Dream Theater has (ideally) never been the kind of group to write a verse and a chorus and then repeat them until they fill a four-minute track. They just play what sounds good to them, and what sounded good to them in '91 is still going to sound good to them in '11. DT sounding like DT is not a problem.

[Adami]

The only comparison I can possibly find that might be intentional was the very very few references to UAGM. Of course it's limited to the first drum beat, the chorus and the guitar solo. But that's it. Nothing else on the album.

[Pinga]

Note that I am not calling Dream Theater liars should they respond to these theories negatively. Just that I won't think less of my discoveries because of it.
I believe in my ears, and I believe in the musical knowledge I've acquired so far.

JLB's "I think nothing of it" tweet was in fact denying the copying of the charts; it was much less of a "no comment" and much more of a casual dismissal. At this point, you're getting awfully close to calling him a liar.

I'd hate to call the man a liar.
In that case, here's my tweet about his tweet.

"ThiagoCamposVRA: Regarding @piratecjs ' tweet, I think absolutely nothing of it."

Better?

You're making a fool out of yourself. You made some accusations (whether you intended to or not) by saying the songs used the I&W charts for writing ADToE. I think James reacted quite coolly, all things considered.

[Enc3f4L0]

However, look at the bolded section there, what Portnoy (and Hooch) and many others have done is use this similarity as a launching point to attack the current output of the band.  They have used it as a way of diminishing the new album and thereby diminishing the quality of the music.  Even Thiago, whose initial analysis is highly flawed overall, may not have "intended" it to be a launching point, he very quickly jumped on the bandwagon to diminish the band's work.   ADTOE is not I&W pt.2, it isn't even structured the same as an album and I think what rankles some is that those who are most loudly making the comparisons seem to be doing it not out of love of the music or band, but out of some malice to the current line-up of the band.

Really? I "jumped on the bandwagon to diminish the band's work"? 
You think just because I don't post here often you can claim shit and not have anything to back it up?

Please quote me where I've diminished the band's work because of my theories.
If anything, I've been repeating myself endlessly to fans with reading/interpreting issues of how much I liked the album regardless of how they wrote it, and that I thought the I&W nuggets were cool.

While you're here, a quick question for you: you said that you believed the piano intro to Lost Not Forgotten was composed after the rest of the song had been composed based on Under a Glass Moon's skeleton. Why should they have done this, if they were just "cool nuggets"? Doesn't that make it seem like they should have been hiding it?

That's one of several ideologically messy things in your essay which did indeed diminish the band's work.

I see what you mean, and since you're asking it in a respectfull manner, I'll adress:

When I mentioned I believed the chopinesque intro was added after the fact it was just my personal "intuition" of how it went, based on writing music myself and being a DT fan for 12 years and watching many of their videos, how they work, write down music ("charts"), etc. I didn't state that as a fact. In fact, none of it was stated as a fact. All of it was what I believed or was suspecting, based on listening to and A/Bing the albums.

I don't think they added the piano intro as a way to unlink LNF from UAGM, because it does a very poor job at it, and it would've been even more naive to think it would be an effective move than it is to think no fan would ever suspect any similarity at all.

Following the steps of my conclusion that LNF was based on UAGM I simply figured that intro was Jordan improvising over the main intro/outro theme on the piano, as we all know he loves doing. I figured they liked it and opted to add as an intro. Again, this is not factual. Just my own train of thought of suspections based on not so unprobable conclusions.

The added bit I wrote "(this is only present on "Lost not Forgotten" and actually attempts to throw you off. I personally believe this  "chopin" moment was added after the song was done)" was unfortunate.
I did not mean it as the band trying to disguise the match in any way. The "IT" I refer to from "actually attempts" is supposed to be the "SECTION", as if it was an animated being trying to be tricky and misguide you. This was just one of the many attempts of me being funny (as in proclaiming I play soccer well) and make the text less boring.

If I had any idea how blown out of proportion this thing would get I would've definitely removed all "funnies" and tripple-checked my note to make sure it strictly used technical terms and evidence backed up propositions (this means not even mention anything I'm suspecting, just what I've concluded). But really, how often do you write something on facebook and expect it to be on blabbermouth the next day?

I could edit the text and remove all these distracting details so people would stop nitpicking at them and focus on THE BIG PICTURE, but then people will criticize me for having edited it (now that it's quoted all over the place) and accuse me of pulling back on my words.

Another example of obtuse interpretation of my text is evident when people focus on the "BMU/BMD" / Surrounded and BITS and TTT associations and try to disqualify me and void my article intirely because of them. If you read (my UNEDITED TEXT) you'll notice I wrote a paragraph specifically for these songs, and clearly stated I was just SUSPECTING the matches, because of how the rest of the album paired up with I&W and these were the 2 that were left. I also clearly stated that more research had to be done on these, but still some of the nay-sayers talk as if I my text only attempted to prove these matches, and don't even mention the other 6 songs...