Comparing songs from ADTOE with their I&W counterparts

[reo73]

Wow, I can't honestly say that this is what I intended to start when I created this thread.

1. OBVIOUSLY some of the songs are so different the comparisons don't even really make sense (BMUBMD v Surrounded)
2. OBVIOUSLY even the songs with similar structures sound very different.

I just thought it would be interesting to see how you all compared the songs (using Thiago's theory).

Now this conversation/pointless argument can hopefully end.

We tried to discuss it, I even posted a chart to help clarify my finding in similarities, but the nay-sayers are so offended by this idea that they keep coming in and ruining the topic.  Life is too short to worry about this, I made my position clear and I would love to discuss it more without the heckling, but until the band addresses the topic directly I doubt that will happen.  Until then I will focus my attention elsewhere.

[MarlaHooch]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_validation

This was never discussed, so I'll just quote it here. I was never familiar with the psychological concept, but it describes perfectly what's going on here.

Marla, what people here take issue with isn't that you believe this album has structural similarities to I&W (which are separate from similarities in arrangement, by the way). For the most part, we all agree. What we take issue with is that you believe and INSIST the band did this purposefully, which is something you'll never, ever, be able to prove, and which won't ever be proven because it's complete nonsense. There is no reason for them to have done this and "copying charts" - whatever that means, as a "chart" is not a strictly defined musical term - doesn't mean a whole lot because the vast majority of 7-12 minute Dream Theater songs since 6DOIT have followed the same rough skeleton.

You heard the similarities and are assigning the only meaning to it which makes sense to you: that they've lost their creative backbone, Portnoy, and are trying to come up with something clever to compensate. You would've come with another excuse to hate the album if there were no structural similarities. THAT'S why what you're saying is frustrating people.

Dude, seriously, whatever.  They did it on purpose, there is no nonsense, and I could care less if "structure" means something other than "arrangement" because everyone here knew exactly what I meant and you guys are grasping at straws.  Everyone who's seen a DT home video knows how MP charts out songs.  That's what a chart is in DT world.  For whatever reason (I can't prove their motive), they ripped off the charts to most of I & W on purpose to build songs for this new album.  I'm right, you're wrong, the end. 


P.S.  Sorry OP, I answered your question in the beginning and tried to leave it at that.  No such luck.

[orcus116]

lo

[Kotowboy]

Don't give a flying crap if the FORM for a few songs are the same. The Music is 100% different.

However...


If album 12 starts with a drum solo and two irish people nattering then....... 

[fibreoptix]

Man, I really need to hear this I&W y'all keep talking about.

[JustinSire]

as I commented in a thread of its own . . .

if Outcry is Metropolis Pt. 1, does that mean we can expect the concept album "Dramatic Scenes from an Uprising" in 3 albums times?



also: I think this whole idea that DT tried pulling a fast one by copying old songs is ludicrous. As a long time DT fan (new to forum however) this kind of recursion across their songs is something I've always trumpeted.

[chrisbDTM]

LNF was UAGM. but thats the only one that jumped out at me. the rest of the pairings werent that defined.

[TheGoodDoctor]

  I'm right, you're wrong, the end. 

I'd be shocked if you didn't have a lot of friends.

[abhimuscat]

i can see the similarities between otboa and pmu, lnf intro sounds very much like uagm, did anyone find breaking all illusions similar to ltl (aside from the fact JM wrote lyrics for both) intro riff sounds similiar, somewhere in between keyboards also sound like ltl and both of them have heartfelt acoustic passages, only thing missing is an F# but the rest of the song makes up for it

[Orthogonal]

LNF was UAGM. but thats the only one that jumped out at me. the rest of the pairings werent that defined.

This one jumps out to you probably due to the very similar style of the intro and a few other themes in the song. That's what a lot of people say, yet this highlights why most people don't understand what we are talking about when we are arguing that they are structurally similar. They don't even have to sound similar for them to have similar structures. I think this is why most people's eye's glaze over when the topic is brought up because they are hearing only the superficial similarities (or differences).

So far we've seen 3 of the songs tabbed out in a direct A/B comparison and they are quite striking. Maybe we're just seeing things because humans are programmed to find patterns, but it does seem rather compelling due to the coincidences. It is fully understood that this is arm chair speculation unless JP unambigously states otherwise, but in the mean time, those of us who do see the structural similarities would like to have some fun discussing the possibilities.

[senecadawg2]

Don't give a flying crap if the FORM for a few songs are the same. The Music is 100% different.

However...


If album 12 starts with a drum solo and two irish people nattering then....... 

Man, I really need to hear this I&W y'all keep talking about.

   

[chrisbDTM]

LNF was UAGM. but thats the only one that jumped out at me. the rest of the pairings werent that defined.

This one jumps out to you probably due to the very similar style of the intro and a few other themes in the song. That's what a lot of people say, yet this highlights why most people don't understand what we are talking about when we are arguing that they are structurally similar. They don't even have to sound similar for them to have similar structures. I think this is why most people's eye's glaze over when the topic is brought up because they are hearing only the superficial similarities (or differences).

it wasnt the notes jumping out. it was the chorus-tech-chorus, guitar solo with changing rhythm section, key solo with steady chords behind, last chorus without tech breaks

[hefdaddy42]

I'm right, you're wrong, the end. 

That's not the way things work around here. It's a discussion forum.  I don't care what your opinions are or what their validity may be.  This kind of behavior isn't necessary. Keep it up, and your exit will be as swift as your entrance.

[Adami]

Finally got the album today.

First off, I like it so far, minus that first ballad that drags on wayyyyy too long in the middle.

Anywho, aside from the intro's OTBOA and PMU have nothing in common that several other DT songs don't also have.


And aside from the part where the drums kick in, LNF and UAGM have nothing in common. There are tons of things in LNF that never happened in UAGM.

[CrimsonSunrise]

I hear some similarities with LNF and UaGM, also parts of Outcry compared to Met1, but that's ALL they are..... similarities.  They are completely different songs.

Has anyone else stopped to think if they intentionally made some structural similarities, it's for a reason?  I can for see some pretty bitchen (yeah...I said Bitchin) medley's blending or meshing some of these songs together live.

[theseoafs]

I'm right, you're wrong, the end. 

Wow.

[Adami]

Also, why are people all of the sudden crediting Mike Portnoy for the arrangement of every song DT has ever done till now?

So structures of a song is similar to a structure of an older song.........and this somehow ripping off MP? What if JP arranged all of those songs on I&W?

[ResultsMayVary]

Also, why are people all of the sudden crediting Mike Portnoy for the arrangement of every song DT has ever done till now?

So structures of a song is similar to a structure of an older song.........and this somehow ripping off MP? What if JP arranged all of those songs on I&W?

Exactly. I'd bet money on the fact JP, JMX, and KM arranged the majority of the songs on I&W, but alas that is my opinion. Hardly fair to credit MP with everything, though.

[ResultsMayVary]

I'm right, you're wrong, the end. 

Oh shit, you got me beat there.

[orcus116]

Also, why are people all of the sudden crediting Mike Portnoy for the arrangement of every song DT has ever done till now?

So structures of a song is similar to a structure of an older song.........and this somehow ripping off MP? What if JP arranged all of those songs on I&W?

And looking at the songs MP has had a bigger hand in arranging, especially on the latter few albums, it's pretty evident the mindset vs the one used to craft IAW is vastly different.

[Jamesman42]

Also, why are people all of the sudden crediting Mike Portnoy for the arrangement of every song DT has ever done till now?

So structures of a song is similar to a structure of an older song.........and this somehow ripping off MP? What if JP arranged all of those songs on I&W?

And looking at the songs MP has had a bigger hand in arranging, especially on the latter few albums, it's pretty evident the mindset vs the one used to craft IAW is vastly different.

True that orcuz

[CrimsonSunrise]

Also, why are people all of the sudden crediting Mike Portnoy for the arrangement of every song DT has ever done till now?

So structures of a song is similar to a structure of an older song.........and this somehow ripping off MP? What if JP arranged all of those songs on I&W?

MP was going to arrange the whole album, but he had his hands full with Prater....

[TJPNET]

Also, why are people all of the sudden crediting Mike Portnoy for the arrangement of every song DT has ever done till now?

So structures of a song is similar to a structure of an older song.........and this somehow ripping off MP? What if JP arranged all of those songs on I&W?

And looking at the songs MP has had a bigger hand in arranging, especially on the latter few albums, it's pretty evident the mindset vs the one used to craft IAW is vastly different.

This. All of it. Fine, structures are similar, but I think that making MP to be the mastermind behind I&W is where the argument suffers.

[orcus116]

Also, why are people all of the sudden crediting Mike Portnoy for the arrangement of every song DT has ever done till now?

So structures of a song is similar to a structure of an older song.........and this somehow ripping off MP? What if JP arranged all of those songs on I&W?

MP was going to arrange the whole album, but he had his hands full with Prater....

Who is actually someone who knew what they were talking about.

[Adami]

Now only if ADTOE would have had a triggered snare.

[gm5k]

Now only if ADTOE would have had a triggered snare.

Truly the ultimate homage 

[njdtfan]

 

[njdtfan]

Im not religious, but will say, Jesus fuckin Christ. GIVE it up already. That said, i will now returne to listening to ADTOE on my own terms.

[The Dark Master]

Honestly, the only songs that really stood out to me as very clearly have structural similarities are Lost Not Forgotten-Under A Glass Moon and the first halfs of Breaking All Illusions-Learning To Live.  Other then that, most of the others do have similarities to I&W songs, but they are also equally similar to other DT songs.  On The Backs Of Angels has no more in common with Pull Me Under then it does with As I Am, New Millennium or any other number of ~8 min DT metal songs that have a lengthy build up.  People here have already pointed out the similarities between Metropolis/Outcry/Endless Sacrifice, as well as Wait For Sleep+Learning To Live/Vacant+Stream of Consciousness/Far From Heaven+Breaking All Illusions.  Honestly, other then LNF and the first half of BAI, none of the other songs follow a chart structure that is unique to songs from I&W.  Far From Heaven doesn't really copy Wait for Sleep; it just serves a similar purpose in the sense that it is a short acoustic song that serves as a prelude to an epic in which it is musically reprised (which is not unique to WFS/LTL).  And that is really it.  Comparing Build Me Up,Break Me Down to Surrounded is preposterous, This Is The Life copied Another Day no more then any other DT power ballad, and Bridges in the Sky resembles Trial of Tears much more closely then Take the Time.

In conclusion, ADTOE as a whole does not resemble I&W any more or less then just about any other Dream Theater album.  Yeah, there are some structural similarities, but most of those structures are not unique to I&W, and this is hardly the first time Dream Theater has borrowed from their own past, intentionally or not. Something that really must be emphasized is that the actual music, the instrumental melodies, harmonies, and rhythms, and well as the lyrics and vocal melodies are completely new and original.  There is much more that defines a composition then it's structure.  If the charts are the only thing that makes a song unique, then pretty much 99% of pop/rock songs are the same because they all follow a intro-verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge/solo-chorus-coda structure, and that is a ludicrous assertion to make.  There are bands that have sought inspiration in the own past much more blatantly and on a much more regular basis then Dream Theater.  Motorhead, AC/DC, Symphony X, Stratovarius, Helloween, Iron Maiden, Manowar and countless others have all done the same. 

And before anyone mentions that it has never been done before on an entire album made up of lengthy, complex songs, remember those three Metallica albums from the 80's?  Not only did the songs on those albums follow the same structures, but the track order was replicated as well.  On three consecutive albums!  And those records had many proggish epics approximately 7-8-9 min in length.  Yet they are all considered to be classics because they are all high quality and well crafted records, and because at the time, both Metallica and their fans saw no reason to fuck with what clearly worked. 

But when Dream Theater borrows a few charts from an album that is almost 20 years old and writes new songs around their structures, that is an unforgivable musical sin that should lose them their careers?     Give me a fucking break!

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

lol it's like the Octavarium forum all over again.

[Perpetual Change]

Some artists constantly release disc after disc of songs with the same "intro/choru/verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/chorus/outro" structure, and people don't even take that into account when judging whether they like the songs or not.

John Petrucci releases two songs with the same slightly more complicated song structure, and for some fans the world ends.

[orcus116]

Over halfway through "Lost Not Forgotten" and even looking for hints of "Under A Glass Moon" I'm at a complete loss. Did people just pick two random songs off each album to find nonexistent similarities? Are some of the techniques in the guitar solo what they're talking about?

[The Dark Master]

lol it's like the Octavarium forum all over again.

Funny you should mention that, because when I first heard ADTOE, Octavarium was the first album that popped into my head, not I&W.  Based off the musical style, I think that album is much more similar to this new record then I&W.  But then again, that is probably because I was listening primarily to, and actually enjoying, the music, and not really dissecting the song structures.

[MarlaHooch]

I'm right, you're wrong, the end. 

That's not the way things work around here. It's a discussion forum.  I don't care what your opinions are or what their validity may be.  This kind of behavior isn't necessary. Keep it up, and your exit will be as swift as your entrance.

You're right and I apologize.  I made my point fine without that little nugget at the end.  Too far.  Won't happen again.

[Jamariquay]

The Shattered Fortress. Reused riffs over a new structure.

A Dramatic Turn Of Events. New riffs over reused structures.

I don't think either one of these things is inherently better or worse than the other. In fact, I think both are pretty cool devices in their own right.

Not really going anywhere with this, just thinking out loud.