Comparing songs from ADTOE with their I&W counterparts

[Chrissalix]

The idea that DT sat down with the charts and mapped the songs out that way is just laughable.  Whatever structural similarities are there, it is likely that the I&W songs are deeply ingrained in all of their heads, inside and out, from playing most of them live non-stop for nearly 20 years, so if/when they decided to go a bit old school and familiar with the songwriting, it was easy to integrate the new melodies and riffs into a structure they knew had worked for them extremely well in the past.  Like I have said 934 times already, all bands do it.  It is not a big deal.

KS...your act here is getting tiring.  It is obvious you have no understanding musically of what some of us are talking about and yet you feel the need to come in and bash those who want to discuss it and discount any meaningful piece of info we may throw out that sheds light on the topic.  The fact is, the structural similarities exist and by everything I know and understand about music in my 25 years of being a musician, and everything I know about DTs music this is no subconscious coincidental event  by the band.  It was intentional whether you like it or not and most of us agree that it is a very fascinating concept of how to create a song.

If you want to contribute then please provide a structural break down for me of both OTBOA/PMU or LNF/UAGM or Outcry/Metropolis and show me where we are completely wrong.  If not then please just leave at this point an let the rest of us get on with our analysis

Lol. Dude, every band structures songs in a similar way. It happens. The band said they were gonna go back the albums that made them great and they did that. Just like when Metallica put out Death Magnetic, they had a song that used the same structure as One, another song that borrowed structure and even tonality from Blackened etc. It's no different and really not a big deal. Everyone in this thread should just chill out, acknowledge the influence of I&W on this album and stop nit picking over something that really, really doesn't matter in the slightest.

Also, I like how you seem to know for a fact that it was intentional. Care to shed any light on how you know that?

[ResultsMayVary]

I disagree and wholly believe they intended to do this.  Ever see the early Seinfeld episode where the lady is talking about "small coincidences" vs. "big coincidences"?  While I appreciate and miss some of his stamps on the band, I'm no MP fanboy.  I really think AMob is terrible so far, but the "Lie" similarity is a "small coincidence" whereas lifting the entire chart for UAGM is a "big coincidence" under your theory that this was somehow an accident or in any way unintentional.  I'm quite sure - and I'm willing to bet JP will admit - that they intended to rebuild the song from the ground up. 

You're entitled to your view that it shouldn't be a big deal.  My argument is DT are BETTER THAN THIS.  That's an all-caps emphasized compliment right there.  They shouldn't be re-writing the past right as they're moving on from arguably their most influential/controlling member.  It'd be a cool idea for, say, a 20th anniversary tribute EP or something, but not for the first music right out of the gate with Mangini (who, in my opinion, is amazing and deserves better than this approach). 

Overall, my opinion of ADToE was originally that they made a mistake rushing to get an album out without Mangini's contributions and I felt the album sounded rather rushed and uninspired as a result, though by no means did I think it was a "bad" album.  Just a bit flat, perhaps.  Now that this "quirk" about the album has come to light, I'm just disappointed.  I think considering how lame MP has been in the press, the band had a real opportunity to handle this with class and release a badass album that showed they didn't need him to move on artistically.  I originally thought the album was a bit of a step back artistically, and now for me this is the proof.

Thank you for disagreeing in a way that isn't rude or insulting.  Cheers   

But do you have any solid proof from any guys in the band that says "hey, we built the song around this" or "we used the structures from I&W", etc? There is no evidence of this at all, which makes it your opinion. You can be convinced all you want, but the argument doesn't hold much validity when you basically say "I know they did it. I KNOW IT."

I don't know if your familiar with Occam's Razor, but it's usually summarized as "the simpliest explanation is most likely the correct one." I know that this isn't always true, but it certainly holds some weight here. There is no evidence that any of the guys sat down with the I&W charts and said "hey, let's do this here or here." That fact that MP suggested that is his comment just goes to show he wants to go after the ADTOE regardless because of the widely positive reaction to the album. MP certainly can't be taken as the authority on the decision since he was present during the writing process, as I stated before.

Your opinion of ADTOE is your own and I respect that, although I do not agree with it. I think ADTOE is a fantastic album and a representation of how Dream Theater still has it in them to write a very good album with songs that are all very well written and filled with so many moments of all types of emotions.

And I still disagree with your point here:

I think considering how lame MP has been in the press, the band had a real opportunity to handle this with class and release a badass album that showed they didn't need him to move on artistically.

The band went back to their core writing, composing all new arrangements and material, while usually the same core structure that they used in their prime as a band (I&W seems to be regarded overall as one of DT's best). Metallica has done this, Iron Maiden has done this, and so does SO many bands. I don't know why this is such a huge problem for you when so many bands do this with a working formula that produces so many classic albums. And the fact you give MP more credit for UAGM then JP, JMX, and KM isn't exactly fair. Keep in mind, JP, JMX, and KM deserve an equal amount of credit (if not more) for UAGM.

[reo73]

The idea that DT sat down with the charts and mapped the songs out that way is just laughable.  Whatever structural similarities are there, it is likely that the I&W songs are deeply ingrained in all of their heads, inside and out, from playing most of them live non-stop for nearly 20 years, so if/when they decided to go a bit old school and familiar with the songwriting, it was easy to integrate the new melodies and riffs into a structure they knew had worked for them extremely well in the past.  Like I have said 934 times already, all bands do it.  It is not a big deal.

KS...your act here is getting tiring.  It is obvious you have no understanding musically of what some of us are talking about and yet you feel the need to come in and bash those who want to discuss it and discount any meaningful piece of info we may throw out that sheds light on the topic.  The fact is, the structural similarities exist and by everything I know and understand about music in my 25 years of being a musician, and everything I know about DTs music this is no subconscious coincidental event  by the band.  It was intentional whether you like it or not and most of us agree that it is a very fascinating concept of how to create a song.

If you want to contribute then please provide a structural break down for me of both OTBOA/PMU or LNF/UAGM or Outcry/Metropolis and show me where we are completely wrong.  If not then please just leave at this point an let the rest of us get on with our analysis

Lol. Dude, every band structures songs in a similar way. It happens. The band said they were gonna go back the albums that made them great and they did that. Just like when Metallica put out Death Magnetic, they had a song that used the same structure as One, another song that borrowed structure and even tonality from Blackened etc. It's no different and really not a big deal. Everyone in this thread should just chill out, acknowledge the influence of I&W on this album and stop nit picking over something that really, really doesn't matter in the slightest.

Also, I like how you seem to know for a fact that it was intentional. Care to shed any light on how you know that?

None of us are saying it's a BAD thing.  See, here in lies the problem.  It may not matter to YOU in the slightest but to some of us it does matter from the standpoint that it is a fascinating subject and we want to discuss it.  But every time we try to discuss it a whole bunch of people come in, get offended by the mere mention that a previous chart was used to construct a current song and then proceed to call this laughable, out of control, anal, ridiculous, etc.   And above all none of you have given any meaningful evidence to the contrary.

So, how do I know they used the same charts for a fact?  Because I actually charted the songs and saw with my own eyes how the two matched up.  And stop with the argument "all bands do it" because not all bands write 10 minute prog metal songs that twist and turn every 30 seconds.  And when you discover that all the twists and turns align up in both songs your realize that it was intentional because the music for PMU, UAGM, and Metropolis is too varied for it to be a subconscious coincident.

Edit: Retraction of the word 'fact.'  Insert word opinion.

[KevShmev]

The idea that DT sat down with the charts and mapped the songs out that way is just laughable.  Whatever structural similarities are there, it is likely that the I&W songs are deeply ingrained in all of their heads, inside and out, from playing most of them live non-stop for nearly 20 years, so if/when they decided to go a bit old school and familiar with the songwriting, it was easy to integrate the new melodies and riffs into a structure they knew had worked for them extremely well in the past.  Like I have said 934 times already, all bands do it.  It is not a big deal.

KS...your act here is getting tiring.  It is obvious you have no understanding musically of what some of us are talking about and yet you feel the need to come in and bash those who want to discuss it and discount any meaningful piece of info we may throw out that sheds light on the topic.  The fact is, the structural similarities exist and by everything I know and understand about music in my 25 years of being a musician, and everything I know about DTs music this is no subconscious coincidental event  by the band.  It was intentional whether you like it or not and most of us agree that it is a very fascinating concept of how to create a song.

If you want to contribute then please provide a structural break down for me of both OTBOA/PMU or LNF/UAGM or Outcry/Metropolis and show me where we are completely wrong.  If not then please just leave at this point an let the rest of us get on with our analysis

Don't tell me what to do.  I will post in this thread if I want to, and considering that I have done so without breaking any rules thus far, I doubt any of the mods will have a problem with it (although you never know about Nick ). 

Second, please prove that it was intentional.  Please demonstrate intent.  Please show me where any of the band members said it was intentional (as opposed to following a similar guideline of how to construct songs based on past works).  TIA.

Third, as for showing you where you are wrong, then burden of proof is on the accuser, and even though a handful of you think you have proven your case, you haven't.  If this were a courtroom case, your case would have been obliterated to shreds already.  And then the judge would say, "Why am I wasting my time on a case where no crime was committed?"

[reo73]

The idea that DT sat down with the charts and mapped the songs out that way is just laughable.  Whatever structural similarities are there, it is likely that the I&W songs are deeply ingrained in all of their heads, inside and out, from playing most of them live non-stop for nearly 20 years, so if/when they decided to go a bit old school and familiar with the songwriting, it was easy to integrate the new melodies and riffs into a structure they knew had worked for them extremely well in the past.  Like I have said 934 times already, all bands do it.  It is not a big deal.

KS...your act here is getting tiring.  It is obvious you have no understanding musically of what some of us are talking about and yet you feel the need to come in and bash those who want to discuss it and discount any meaningful piece of info we may throw out that sheds light on the topic.  The fact is, the structural similarities exist and by everything I know and understand about music in my 25 years of being a musician, and everything I know about DTs music this is no subconscious coincidental event  by the band.  It was intentional whether you like it or not and most of us agree that it is a very fascinating concept of how to create a song.

If you want to contribute then please provide a structural break down for me of both OTBOA/PMU or LNF/UAGM or Outcry/Metropolis and show me where we are completely wrong.  If not then please just leave at this point an let the rest of us get on with our analysis

Don't tell me what to do.  I will post in this thread if I want to, and considering that I have done so without breaking any rules thus far, I doubt any of the mods will have a problem with it (although you never know about Nick ). 

Second, please prove that it was intentional.  Please demonstrate intent.  Please show me where any of the band members said it was intentional (as opposed to following a similar guideline of how to construct songs based on past works).  TIA.

Third, as for showing you where you are wrong, then burden of proof is on the accuser, and even though a handful of you think you have proven your case, you haven't.  If this were a courtroom case, your case would have been obliterated to shreds already.  And then the judge would say, "Why am I wasting my time on a case where no crime was committed?"

I already laid out the chart for Outcry/Metropolis in this thread.  I laid out the chart for OTBOA/PMU a couple months back.  And Thiago already laid out the chart for LNF/UAGM in his FB post.  I am not providing any more proof.  If you listen to both songs and follow the charts maybe you will see it, if not I am not proving anything else to you.

And no, the band has not talked about this issue, but just as we can all recognize the same melody in songs such as the Wait for Sleep part in LTL or the Space Dye Vest part in the Mirror and understand this is not coincidence, some of us can recognize the same structure between two songs even though the music is completely different and understand it is also not coincidence.

[AngelBack]

Not to stir up any more s#%$, but I heard a rumour that the band may have been using the same 13 notes for over 25 years.  Now I can't confirm this ,  just sayin'.....

[Orthogonal]

I charted Outcry and Metropolis today:
(Metropolis Time Stamp on Left / Outcry on Right)

0:00  Intro with Keys   0:00
0:40  Intro Guitar Riff Over Keys (Full Band)  0:45
1:18  Transition to RIFF 1A  1:30
1:23  RIFF 1A   1:36
1:32  RIFF 1A w/Keys  1:47
1:42  RIFF 1B  1:58
1:51  Vocals RIFF 1B  2:10
2:13  Vocals PROGRESSION 1  2:33
2:28  Vocals 2A (Mellow Section)  3:10  <----In Metropolis this is clean guitar & in Outcry it's keys
3:08  Vocals 2B RIFF 2   3:30  <----In Outcry this sounds more like a Chorus
3:26  RIFF 1A Reprise for transition   3:52
3:36  Vocals RIFF 1A   4:03
3:59  Vocals PROGRESSION 1   4:26
4:13  End Vocal Sections   4:44
4:18  Instrumental Section Starts 4:53
7:23   Instrumental Section ending build-up   7:54
8:04   PROGRESSION 2 (mellow)   8:44   <----- in Metropolis this is clean guitar, in Outcry it's keys
8:16   Vocals PROGRESSION 2   9:07
8:28   Vocals RIFF 2   9:29
8:45   Vocals PROGRESSION 3   10:16
9:10   Ending Chord and Hold   10:49

That is such a common structure though! I'm sure loads of DT songs use that!

Seriously though, what I don't get is the people that don't care for this nugget. Why are you in the thread?
There are people here that think this is cool, and want to discuss it. Most of us aren't saying the band is out of ideas, or that this was some lame attempt to replicate the success of Images, we just think it's cool.

KevShmev, please give us your honest opinion of Reo73's breakdown and comparison of Outcry vs. Metropolis. Is he just seeing things that don't exist, or is there really a structural similarity? Many of us want to talk about this as a positive nugget in the DT library, but it's hard to do when people just come in here and dismiss it out of hand. If you don't want to have meaningful contributions, please just don't post.

From now on, I'm just going to ignore those who want to derail the thread. Lets just keep discussing this great find. 

Second, please prove that it was intentional.  Please demonstrate intent.  Please show me where any of the band members said it was intentional (as opposed to following a similar guideline of how to construct songs based on past works).  TIA.

That doesn't exist, hence we are just having a discussion about it in this thread. Just like any other thread...

Third, as for showing you where you are wrong, then burden of proof is on the accuser, and even though a handful of you think you have proven your case, you haven't.  If this were a courtroom case, your case would have been obliterated to shreds already.  And then the judge would say, "Why am I wasting my time on a case where no crime was committed?"

This is pretty compelling evidence. No one is forcing you to believe it, but if you want to dismiss it, that's fine, just move on to another thread.

[KevShmev]

Metropolis and Outcry both have an intro with keys?  Congratulations, so do many other DT songs.  And Metropolis' intro is not just keys, while Outcry's is (assuming JR is doing those electronic bits on his keyboard), so acting like the intros are exactly similar is absurd.  Besides, Metropolis' intro is a slow build to the entire band then coming in with the main theme, while Outcry's intro stands on its own and then BAM here comes the full band suddenly playing the main theme. 

Outcry has a chorus we hear at least three times (not counting how it is repeated at the end).  Metropolis does not have a chorus.  The structure of the vocal sections being similar is superficial at best, and a major stretch at worst.

And reo73 even admitted that the instrumental sections aren't that similar, so what else are we left with? 

Shall I go on?

[ResultsMayVary]

I already laid out the chart for Outcry/Metropolis in this thread.  I laid out the chart for OTBOA/PMU a couple months back.  And Thiago already laid out the chart for LNF/UAGM in his FB post.  I am not providing any more proof.  If you listen to both songs and follow the charts maybe you will see it, if not I am not proving anything else to you.

And no, the band has not talked about this issue, but just as we can all recognize the same melody in songs such as the Wait for Sleep part in LTL or the Space Dye Vest part in the Mirror and understand this is not coincidence, some of us can recognize the same structure between two songs even though the music is completely different and understand it is also not coincidence.

You laid out the charts that shows structural similarities. And DT has been using similar structures for decades as well as every other band in existence. Why do you just have a problem with the similarities present on this album? What about Endless Sacrifice? What about Never Enough? What about over half of Dream Theater's discography? What about (basically) the entire Metallica, Iron Maiden, AC/DC, and others' discographies? Why are you so mad at JUST this album? Since the band has not talked about the issue and there is absolutely no evidence to prove they specficially went out of their way to re-use charts, then they didn't do it. If you have any hard evidence that proves they did this intentionally, then by all means, please post it. Otherwise, it doesn't prove that they did this intentionally.

[Chrissalix]

The idea that DT sat down with the charts and mapped the songs out that way is just laughable.  Whatever structural similarities are there, it is likely that the I&W songs are deeply ingrained in all of their heads, inside and out, from playing most of them live non-stop for nearly 20 years, so if/when they decided to go a bit old school and familiar with the songwriting, it was easy to integrate the new melodies and riffs into a structure they knew had worked for them extremely well in the past.  Like I have said 934 times already, all bands do it.  It is not a big deal.

KS...your act here is getting tiring.  It is obvious you have no understanding musically of what some of us are talking about and yet you feel the need to come in and bash those who want to discuss it and discount any meaningful piece of info we may throw out that sheds light on the topic.  The fact is, the structural similarities exist and by everything I know and understand about music in my 25 years of being a musician, and everything I know about DTs music this is no subconscious coincidental event  by the band.  It was intentional whether you like it or not and most of us agree that it is a very fascinating concept of how to create a song.

If you want to contribute then please provide a structural break down for me of both OTBOA/PMU or LNF/UAGM or Outcry/Metropolis and show me where we are completely wrong.  If not then please just leave at this point an let the rest of us get on with our analysis

Lol. Dude, every band structures songs in a similar way. It happens. The band said they were gonna go back the albums that made them great and they did that. Just like when Metallica put out Death Magnetic, they had a song that used the same structure as One, another song that borrowed structure and even tonality from Blackened etc. It's no different and really not a big deal. Everyone in this thread should just chill out, acknowledge the influence of I&W on this album and stop nit picking over something that really, really doesn't matter in the slightest.

Also, I like how you seem to know for a fact that it was intentional. Care to shed any light on how you know that?

None of us are saying it's a BAD thing.  See, here in lies the problem.  It may not matter to YOU in the slightest but to some of us it does matter from the standpoint that it is a fascinating subject and we want to discuss it.  But every time we try to discuss it a whole bunch of people come in, get offended by the mere mention that a previous chart was used to construct a current song and then proceed to call this laughable, out of control, anal, ridiculous, etc.   And above all none of you have given any meaningful evidence to the contrary.

So, how do I know they used the same charts for a fact?  Because I actually charted the songs and saw with my own eyes how the two matched up.  And stop with the argument "all bands do it" because not all bands write 10 minute prog metal songs that twist and turn every 30 seconds.  And when you discover that all the twists and turns align up in both songs your realize that it was intentional because the music for PMU, UAGM, and Metropolis is too varied for it to be a subconscious coincident.

Dude, you have no idea about the band's intentions. Were you in the room when this stuff was written? I'd wager you weren't as you are not any of JR, JLB, JMX or JP. Unless you are one of those 4 people, you have no  more of an idea than the next fan as to whether they went back to the arrangements and copied them or not so i'd stop stating it as fact, charts or no charts. Yes, as the poster above me has (rightly) mentioned, Images was most probably used by the band as a guideline (inspiration corner, anyone?) but to say they took 3 songs from that album and consciously rewrote them from the old structures they wrote out in 1992 section by section? Seems a little far-fetched, don't you think? Images.. would have been in their minds as an influence (no more than Pantera on TGP or Muse on Octavarium) but I reckon there is no way in hell they sat down and consciously and meticulously plagiarised themselves to the extent you're suggesting. I don't know for certain that they didn't obviously, but it sure seems unlikely. I suggest you go write out some "charts" to compare "The Dark Eternal Night" with "The Glass Prison" or "A Rite of Passage" with "Endless Sacrifice". You will probably find more similarities than you'd think. If you want to discuss it then great but there really isn't that much to discuss. Plus it's horribly overthinking music that is just there to be enjoyed.

[KevShmev]

You laid out the charts that shows structural similarities. And DT has been using similar structures for decades as well as every other band in existence. Why do you just have a problem with the similarities present on this album? What about Endless Sacrifice? What about Never Enough? What about over half of Dream Theater's discography? What about (basically) the entire Metallica, Iron Maiden, AC/DC, and others' discographies? Why are you so mad at JUST this album? Since the band has not talked about the issue and there is absolutely no evidence to prove they specficially went out of their way to re-use charts, then they didn't do it. If you have any hard evidence that proves they did this intentionally, then by all means, please post it. Otherwise, it doesn't prove that they did this intentionally.

I would say I don't get why this continues to be ignored (despite being pointed out by numerous peeps over the past few days), but ignoring it makes it easier to cling to the idea that DT suddenly starting stealing song structures from themselves, as if they (or every other band) had never done it before.

[ResultsMayVary]

KevShmev, please give us your honest opinion of Reo73's breakdown and comparison of Outcry vs. Metropolis. Is he just seeing things that don't exist, or is there really a structural similarity? Many of us want to talk about this as a positive nugget in the DT library, but it's hard to do when people just come in here and dismiss it out of hand. If you don't want to have meaningful contributions, please just don't post.

Most people who are arguing against you (me included) see some of these similarities. No one that I've seen is dismissing them outright (i.e. THERE ARE NO SIMILARITIES). My argument, summarized, is that the structures are not the "EXACT. SAME. THING." that some people are arguing here. And these small similarities have been done dozens of times in Dream Theater's entire career and probably *millions* of times if you want to count the similarities between Metallica, Iron Maiden, AC/DC, and others' discographies that show structural similar songs in their respective catalogues.

[Chrissalix]

You laid out the charts that shows structural similarities. And DT has been using similar structures for decades as well as every other band in existence. Why do you just have a problem with the similarities present on this album? What about Endless Sacrifice? What about Never Enough? What about over half of Dream Theater's discography? What about (basically) the entire Metallica, Iron Maiden, AC/DC, and others' discographies? Why are you so mad at JUST this album? Since the band has not talked about the issue and there is absolutely no evidence to prove they specficially went out of their way to re-use charts, then they didn't do it. If you have any hard evidence that proves they did this intentionally, then by all means, please post it. Otherwise, it doesn't prove that they did this intentionally.

I would say I don't get why this continues to be ignored (despite being pointed out by numerous peeps over the past few days), but ignoring it makes it easier to cling to the idea that DT suddenly starting stealing song structures from themselves, as if they (or every other band) had never done it before.

Backed hard.

[ResultsMayVary]

You laid out the charts that shows structural similarities. And DT has been using similar structures for decades as well as every other band in existence. Why do you just have a problem with the similarities present on this album? What about Endless Sacrifice? What about Never Enough? What about over half of Dream Theater's discography? What about (basically) the entire Metallica, Iron Maiden, AC/DC, and others' discographies? Why are you so mad at JUST this album? Since the band has not talked about the issue and there is absolutely no evidence to prove they specficially went out of their way to re-use charts, then they didn't do it. If you have any hard evidence that proves they did this intentionally, then by all means, please post it. Otherwise, it doesn't prove that they did this intentionally.

I would say I don't get why this continues to be ignored (despite being pointed out by numerous peeps over the past few days), but ignoring it makes it easier to cling to the idea that DT suddenly starting stealing song structures from themselves, as if they (or every other band) had never done it before.

Exactly. I would love to see my above point addressed, but everyone has seemed to ignore it.

[KevShmev]

KevShmev, please give us your honest opinion of Reo73's breakdown and comparison of Outcry vs. Metropolis. Is he just seeing things that don't exist, or is there really a structural similarity? Many of us want to talk about this as a positive nugget in the DT library, but it's hard to do when people just come in here and dismiss it out of hand. If you don't want to have meaningful contributions, please just don't post.

Most people who are arguing against you (me included) see some of these similarities. No one that I've seen is dismissing them outright (i.e. THERE ARE NO SIMILARITIES). My argument, summarized, is that the structures are not the "EXACT. SAME. THING." that some people are arguing here. And these small similarities have been done dozens of times in Dream Theater's entire career and probably *millions* in times if you want to count the similarities between Metallica, Iron Maiden, AC/DC, and others' discographies that show structural similar sounds in their respective catalogues.

Bingo. 

The beginning of Lost Not Forgotten (after the piano intro) is obviously very similar to the beginning of Under a Glass Moon. 

The quirky keyboard part around the 5-minute mark of Breaking All Illusions (that serves as a bridge between the vocals and the instrumental section) is obviously stylistically similar to the part around 4:45 in Learning to Live.

I doubt anyone else is not hearing these things.  And I am sure 99% of us don't have a problem with it. 

[Chrissalix]

KevShmev, please give us your honest opinion of Reo73's breakdown and comparison of Outcry vs. Metropolis. Is he just seeing things that don't exist, or is there really a structural similarity? Many of us want to talk about this as a positive nugget in the DT library, but it's hard to do when people just come in here and dismiss it out of hand. If you don't want to have meaningful contributions, please just don't post.

Most people who are arguing against you (me included) see some of these similarities. No one that I've seen is dismissing them outright (i.e. THERE ARE NO SIMILARITIES). My argument, summarized, is that the structures are not the "EXACT. SAME. THING." that some people are arguing here. And these small similarities have been done dozens of times in Dream Theater's entire career and probably *millions* in times if you want to count the similarities between Metallica, Iron Maiden, AC/DC, and others' discographies that show structural similar sounds in their respective catalogues.

Bingo. 

The beginning of Lost Not Forgotten (after the piano intro) is obviously very similar to the beginning of Under a Glass Moon. 

The quirky keyboard part around the 5-minute mark of Breaking All Illusions (that serves as a bridge between the vocals and the instrumental section) is obviously stylistically similar to the part around 4:45 in Learning to Live.

I doubt anyone else is not hearing these things.  And I am sure 99% of us don't have a problem with it.

Yeah, and there's that huge build culminating in a JLB F#5 moment in Breaking All Illusions. And there are no repeating parts in outcry. And those polyrhythms that are all over Pull Me Under...

[reo73]

You know what, I backed up my points with the charts.  I have discussed how DT is different then a band like AC/DC in how they construct songs, and never did I infer that what DT did was a negative thing, in fact I am actually thinking it is kind of cool thing.  At first i was a bit hesitant about it but the more I get into these new songs I like what they did.

We are all going to just need to agree to disagree on this.  I will be on the side that thinks DT used existing charts along with Thiago, MP, and a number of other people here and you can be on the side that thinks we are all ridiculous.  I stand by my conclusions.

And let me just add that the charts are the same on an overall structural level, enough that I believe it was intentional, but they do not follow exact in the minute details of everything.

[Orthogonal]

We all agree that repeat usage of song structures is a common thing for every band, DT included. The difference here is that the vast majority of the ADTOE structural similarities are patterned after songs from a single album instead of being littered throughout the DT back catalog which is why there is increased discussion about it.  No one yet knows if it was intentional or not, but this is seems too coincidental to be an aberration. It's just something fun to talk about.

[ResultsMayVary]

We are all going to just need to agree to disagree on this.  I will be on the side that thinks DT used existing charts along with Thiago, MP, and a number of other people here and you can be on the side that thinks we are all ridiculous.  I stand by my conclusions.

And let me just add that the charts are the same on an overall structural level, enough that I believe it was intentional, but they do not follow exact in the minute details of everything.

You can believe that DT re-used charts, but that does not make it fact since there is zero evidence from the band that they intentionally did that. I respect your opinion and I found this entire discussion to be very civil compared to the last thread on this topic. However, there is no evidence that DT intentionally copied charts for songs on this album. You can agree with Thiago and MP all you want, but that doesn't make it true. If you have statements from the band or any members saying and proving they did use the charts, then post them and I would gladly agree with you. But, due to the extreme lack of evidence that they did it intentionally, I will disagree and continue to disagree with you.

[ResultsMayVary]

We all agree that repeat usage of song structures is a common thing for every band, DT included. The difference here is that the vast majority of the ADTOE structural similarities are patterned after songs from a single album instead of being littered throughout the DT back catalog which is why there is increased discussion about it.  No one yet knows if it was intentional or not, but this is seems too coincidental to be an aberration. It's just something fun to talk about.

I've only seen three comparisons that actually have some similar sections. UAGM to LNF, PMU to OBTOA, and LTL to BAI. This is three songs out of an album of nine. Hardly the majority of the album. Songs like BMU, BMD, TITL, BITS, Outcry, FFH, and BTS do not have any similarities to any I&W save maybe a single transition or two (which dozens and dozens of DT songs share the same transitions from a structural point of view). And even those comparisons between those three songs are not huge anyway.

[Cruithne]

MP and MarlaHooch using the term "re-writing the past" really hacks me off. I don't believe for a second that they don't understand the connotations behind the phrase and how it isn't appropriate in this situation.

(MP I'm more willing to give the benefit of the doubt since it's obvious he posts without having engaged his brain more often than not. MarlaHooch's posts are too well written for me to want to give the benefit of the doubt).

Until members of DT actually confirm or refute the fact that the structural (and it is structural, not arrangement) similarities were intentional then making decrees to that end are complete nonsense.

For all I know "inspiration corner" had one album in it this time and that album was I&W and thus the way they put together songs at the time they made that album rubbed off on them more than they realised. It might be that this is just how JP's mind works when he's writing songs without MP's overt influence. It might be that they explicitly put parts in to rekindle the spirit of I&W...

...whatever the case (and I'm staying open minded until members of DT directly comment and part of me hopes they never do), if it's the case that they were more influenced by their own writing than whatever albums of the moment a certain individual thrust upon them then that works for me. I'm still absorbing the album and it'll be months before I can really judge how good this album is, but so far I'm loving it and for the first time since SFaM I can listen to the entire album without cringing at anything and without wanting to skip parts (ok... maybe aside from the throat burp...).

So far it's two big thumbs up for this album from me.

[reo73]

We are all going to just need to agree to disagree on this.  I will be on the side that thinks DT used existing charts along with Thiago, MP, and a number of other people here and you can be on the side that thinks we are all ridiculous.  I stand by my conclusions.

And let me just add that the charts are the same on an overall structural level, enough that I believe it was intentional, but they do not follow exact in the minute details of everything.

You can believe that DT re-used charts, but that does not make it fact since there is zero evidence from the band that they intentionally did that. I respect your opinion and I found this entire discussion to be very civil compared to the last thread on this topic. However, there is no evidence that DT intentionally copied charts for songs on this album. You can agree with Thiago and MP all you want, but that doesn't make it true. If you have statements from the band or any members saying and proving they did use the charts, then post them and I would gladly agree with you. But, due to the extreme lack of evidence that they did it intentionally, I will disagree and continue to disagree with you.

Fair enough, I will retract my usage of the word 'Fact' until one of the band members confirms it and use the term 'opinion' and we can all get on with life.

[MarlaHooch]

I disagree and wholly believe they intended to do this.  Ever see the early Seinfeld episode where the lady is talking about "small coincidences" vs. "big coincidences"?  While I appreciate and miss some of his stamps on the band, I'm no MP fanboy.  I really think AMob is terrible so far, but the "Lie" similarity is a "small coincidence" whereas lifting the entire chart for UAGM is a "big coincidence" under your theory that this was somehow an accident or in any way unintentional.  I'm quite sure - and I'm willing to bet JP will admit - that they intended to rebuild the song from the ground up. 

You're entitled to your view that it shouldn't be a big deal.  My argument is DT are BETTER THAN THIS.  That's an all-caps emphasized compliment right there.  They shouldn't be re-writing the past right as they're moving on from arguably their most influential/controlling member.  It'd be a cool idea for, say, a 20th anniversary tribute EP or something, but not for the first music right out of the gate with Mangini (who, in my opinion, is amazing and deserves better than this approach). 

Overall, my opinion of ADToE was originally that they made a mistake rushing to get an album out without Mangini's contributions and I felt the album sounded rather rushed and uninspired as a result, though by no means did I think it was a "bad" album.  Just a bit flat, perhaps.  Now that this "quirk" about the album has come to light, I'm just disappointed.  I think considering how lame MP has been in the press, the band had a real opportunity to handle this with class and release a badass album that showed they didn't need him to move on artistically.  I originally thought the album was a bit of a step back artistically, and now for me this is the proof.

Thank you for disagreeing in a way that isn't rude or insulting.  Cheers   

But do you have any solid proof from any guys in the band that says "hey, we built the song around this" or "we used the structures from I&W", etc? There is no evidence of this at all, which makes it your opinion. You can be convinced all you want, but the argument doesn't hold much validity when you basically say "I know they did it. I KNOW IT."

I don't know if your familiar with Occam's Razor, but it's usually summarized as "the simpliest explanation is most likely the correct one." I know that this isn't always true, but it certainly holds some weight here. There is no evidence that any of the guys sat down with the I&W charts and said "hey, let's do this here or here." That fact that MP suggested that is his comment just goes to show he wants to go after the ADTOE regardless because of the widely positive reaction to the album. MP certainly can't be taken as the authority on the decision since he was present during the writing process, as I stated before.

Your opinion of ADTOE is your own and I respect that, although I do not agree with it. I think ADTOE is a fantastic album and a representation of how Dream Theater still has it in them to write a very good album with songs that are all very well written and filled with so many moments of all types of emotions.

And I still disagree with your point here:

I think considering how lame MP has been in the press, the band had a real opportunity to handle this with class and release a badass album that showed they didn't need him to move on artistically.

The band went back to their core writing, composing all new arrangements and material, while usually the same core structure that they used in their prime as a band (I&W seems to be regarded overall as one of DT's best). Metallica has done this, Iron Maiden has done this, and so does SO many bands. I don't know why this is such a huge problem for you when so many bands do this with a working formula that produces so many classic albums. And the fact you give MP more credit for UAGM then JP, JMX, and KM isn't exactly fair. Keep in mind, JP, JMX, and KM deserve an equal amount of credit (if not more) for UAGM.

Hahaha, dude, I appreciate your civil tone, but I'm not going to continue to try to convince you that the copying occurred.  I have been a musician for over 15 years now, I have perfect pitch, I've taken music theory courses, etc.  You can believe what you want, it's obvious that you're not going to change your opinion.  Sooner or later, the band are going to have to own up to this, and hopefully you'll believe it when it's straight from their mouths. 

All the proof I need is in my ears with further corroboration from the meticulous charts that others have spent their time creating.

My problem, again, is they are not simply playing in their style as these other bands do (Metallica, AC/DC, etc.)  They are intentionally re-using specific songs with all of their dozens of specific quirks, changes, etc.

And, again, my ONLY problem is they're choosing to do this right when one of their biggest members leaves who arguably took part in writing those old songs.  My questions, again - why now?  Why not just admit it?  Why not do this as some 20th anniversary tribute EP and make a real original album with Mangini contributing if they are indeed a new band experiencing a new beginning?

I just find it unethical.  As a songwriter, I think it is a cheap/lazy move.

[Chrissalix]

We all agree that repeat usage of song structures is a common thing for every band, DT included. The difference here is that the vast majority of the ADTOE structural similarities are patterned after songs from a single album instead of being littered throughout the DT back catalog which is why there is increased discussion about it.  No one yet knows if it was intentional or not, but this is seems too coincidental to be an aberration. It's just something fun to talk about.

I raise you Octavarium. Hysteria = Panic Attack. Stockholm Syndrome = Never Enough. Both from Absolution by Muse.

[KevShmev]

All the proof I need is in my ears with further corroboration from the meticulous charts that others have spent their time creating.

Do you mean the charts, which feature flaws that I pointed out above, but that you will probably ignore? 

And the ones originally written by the guy who called Build Me Up, Break My Down a keyboard-driven song, and said it was probably similar to Surrounded? 

[ResultsMayVary]

And, again, my ONLY problem is they're choosing to do this right when one of their biggest members leaves who arguably took part in writing those old songs.  My questions, again - why now?  Why not just admit it?  Why not do this as some 20th anniversary tribute EP and make a real original album with Mangini contributing if they are indeed a new band experiencing a new beginning?

I just find it unethical.  As a songwriter, I think it is a cheap/lazy move.

I wasn't going to respond because we had both reached a point where we weren't going to change eachother's minds until I read the above passage.

Once again, where is your outrage at Endless Sacrifice, Never Enough, and other songs that are MP-era songs? Where is the outrage on that? DT did the "EXACT. SAME. THING.", to use your popular phrase, between the structural similarities between those MP-era songs and the ADTOE songs. And if you actually took the time (hehe) to look through the DT catalgoue, you would find a bunch of songs that share this type of structural similarity between two or more other songs. And guess what, MP basically got what he wanted when he was in the band (you can't deny this since he has admitted this time and time again), so that means MP has gone out of his way to either re-use ideas/charts for structurally similar passages when he was in the band or it was a coincidence that the songs ended up that way. I'm inclined to believe the latter for both situations as there is no evidence to say that they copied in both situations (this includes all MP-era songs as well the ADTOE songs). And by simple logic, this is probably the way the guys write and thats how their brains work. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise, so all you are conveying is your personal *opinion* and no hard facts that have 100% supporting evidence to back them up. And that is fact. If you would like to dispute that fact, please post evidence (either from MP or the other DT guys for when MP was in the band, or the DT guys now for their latest album).

[reo73]

All the proof I need is in my ears with further corroboration from the meticulous charts that others have spent their time creating.

Do you mean the charts, which feature flaws that I pointed out above, but that you will probably ignore? 

And the ones originally written by the guy who called Build Me Up, Break My Down a keyboard-driven song, and said it was probably similar to Surrounded?

There is not a flaw in the chart I posted.  Both songs follow the description given at the time stamp.  You are just interpreting it to be meaningless.

[Indiscipline]

I still owe you people the UaGM thingy, I know. Fock.

Try to forget that for a bit and let me drop a couple of vodka soaked cents.


If the Pointy Hatted Logician from the In The wake of Poseidon cover tells me there are similarities ... Fock, I do believe him.

I can hear Under a Glass Moon inside Lost Not Forgotten

I can hear Learning to Live inside Breaking All Illusions

For what is worth, I can also hear Burning My Soul inside Build Me Up Break Me Down, when I can be arsed to listen to that misshapen thing, that is.


BUT


I can also hear Baby Jesus calling me from my oven, if I want.

See where I'm going?

Lucky bastard, focking give me a clue then.


There are structural similarities. Deny it and you have problems with Lady Fabric o' Reality.

There are structural differences. Deny it - or ignore it - and you have got an agenda. Yes you do.

"They are recycling shit from the Sacred Portnoy Manpurse!"


Really?


I can play that game too:

"Mommy, little bro has two arms, two knees and one dick! Just like me!"

"I know honey, yet you both are wonderfully unique creatures of love."

"Silence, hag! You are recycling Daddy's shit!"


See? I am The Theorist! Hear me theor!



(My old thread ... Lost, not Forgotten. Have faith.)

[KevShmev]

reo, how is 0:00 - 0:40 in Metropolis just an "Intro with Keys"?  Yeah, and guitar.  And drums.  And bass.

If you want to say that both intros are around 40 seconds or so, that is fine, and that can probably be applied to quite a few DT songs, but implying that they are both Intro with Keys is either factually incorrect (as it implies the intro is JUST keys) or it is intentionally misleading.

And I'll ask for 195th time: Where is the chorus in Metropolis?

[MarlaHooch]

And, again, my ONLY problem is they're choosing to do this right when one of their biggest members leaves who arguably took part in writing those old songs.  My questions, again - why now?  Why not just admit it?  Why not do this as some 20th anniversary tribute EP and make a real original album with Mangini contributing if they are indeed a new band experiencing a new beginning?

I just find it unethical.  As a songwriter, I think it is a cheap/lazy move.

I wasn't going to respond because we had both reached a point where we weren't going to change eachother's minds until I read the above passage.

Once again, where is your outrage at Endless Sacrifice, Never Enough, and other songs that are MP-era songs? Where is the outrage on that? DT did the "EXACT. SAME. THING.", to use your popular phrase, between the structural similarities between those MP-era songs and the ADTOE songs. And if you actually took the time (hehe) to look through the DT catalgoue, you would find a bunch of songs that share this type of structural similarity between two or more other songs. And guess what, MP basically got what he wanted when he was in the band (you can't deny this since he has admitted this time and time again), so that means MP has gone out of his way to either re-use ideas/charts for structurally similar passages when he was in the band or it was a coincidence that the songs ended up that way. I'm inclined to believe the latter for both situations as there is no evidence to say that they copied in both situations (this includes all MP-era songs as well the ADTOE songs). And by simple logic, this is probably the way the guys write and thats how their brains work. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise, so all you are conveying is your personal *opinion* and no hard facts that have 100% supporting evidence to back them up.

Read my point about this being their first album without MP and borrowing heavily (way more than they ever have before) from their previous work that he was included on.

If DT with MP want to recycle ideas that DT with MP created or they want to borrow from their influences perhaps a bit too much, okay, maybe a little lame after a while, but fair enough.  They just replicated the charts from at least half of an album (featuring MP's contributions) from 20 years ago and passed it off as "a new beginning without MP."  A little different than an odd nod to the past here and there.  DT, particularly James and Jordan, are in the press saying the writing process was much smoother without MP, that they're a new band that's moving on, and that they're evolving.  Really?  This sort of negates that for me.

I've made my points and I think you're sort of picking and choosing what you find convenient to pay attention to.

And actually, it's not my opinion that they used the UAGM chart for LNF.  It's 100% provable fact and it has been proven.  You choose not to believe it.  Stare at the ocean horizon and you'd be pretty certain there was no solid evidence that the earth was round.

Feel free to PM me when JP admits this is what they intended to do.  I'll understand 

P.S. Nice pun.  And I have to ask, is your SN a reference to that Limp Bizkit album?  hahahaha

[Orthogonal]

I've only seen three comparisons that actually have some similar sections. UAGM to LNF, PMU to OBTOA, and LTL to BAI. This is three songs out of an album of nine. Hardly the majority of the album. Songs like BMU, BMD, TITL, BITS, Outcry, FFH, and BTS do not have any similarities to any I&W save maybe a single transition or two (which dozens and dozens of DT songs share the same transitions from a structural point of view). And even those comparisons between those three songs are not huge anyway.

In Thiago's original message, he also posted A/B tabs for TITL/Another Day. Also, it has been noted the similarity both structurally and song order wise for FFH/WFS transitioning into BAI/LTL.

All in all, 6 songs are alleged to be structurally similar to I&W counterparts.

[ResultsMayVary]

I've only seen three comparisons that actually have some similar sections. UAGM to LNF, PMU to OBTOA, and LTL to BAI. This is three songs out of an album of nine. Hardly the majority of the album. Songs like BMU, BMD, TITL, BITS, Outcry, FFH, and BTS do not have any similarities to any I&W save maybe a single transition or two (which dozens and dozens of DT songs share the same transitions from a structural point of view). And even those comparisons between those three songs are not huge anyway.

In Thiago's original message, he also posted A/B tabs for TITL/Another Day. Also, it has been noted the similarity both structurally and song order wise for FFH/WFS transitioning into LTL/BAI.

All in all, 6 songs are alleged to be structurally similar to I&W counterparts.

Just because FFH and WFS are both vocals/piano, doesn't mean their structurally similar. But they both do have recurring themes in their following songs.

[reo73]

reo, how is 0:00 - 0:40 in Metropolis just an "Intro with Keys"?  Yeah, and guitar.  And drums.  And bass.

If you want to say that both intros are around 40 seconds or so, that is fine, and that can probably be applied to quite a few DT songs, but implying that they are both Intro with Keys is either factually incorrect (as it implies the intro is JUST keys) or it is intentionally misleading.

Like I said earlier, this is a overall structural analysis but the music is different and the instrumentation is not suppose to match up.  Both songs have keys as the main theme with other things going on underneath.  In the Metropolis it's the keys with a guitar doing those delay power chords and the kick drum.  In Outcry its the keys with an electronic synth beat behind it.  And the time stamps aren't suppose to match,  they are just there to give guidance as you listen.

[KevShmev]

I've made my points and I think you're sort of picking and choosing what you find convenient to pay attention to.

You are the one talking with sweeping statements like, "The songs are exactly the same," but when some of us point out things that aren't the same, you call it picking and choosing.  That is hysterical.

And actually, it's not my opinion that they used the UAGM chart for LNF. 

Actually, it is.  Even if they are exactly alike, you have no proof that the band actually used a chart to do it.

[reo73]

I've only seen three comparisons that actually have some similar sections. UAGM to LNF, PMU to OBTOA, and LTL to BAI. This is three songs out of an album of nine. Hardly the majority of the album. Songs like BMU, BMD, TITL, BITS, Outcry, FFH, and BTS do not have any similarities to any I&W save maybe a single transition or two (which dozens and dozens of DT songs share the same transitions from a structural point of view). And even those comparisons between those three songs are not huge anyway.

In Thiago's original message, he also posted A/B tabs for TITL/Another Day. Also, it has been noted the similarity both structurally and song order wise for FFH/WFS transitioning into BAI/LTL.

All in all, 6 songs are alleged to be structurally similar to I&W counterparts.

I've concluded that BAI and LTL are more thematically similar but when i tried to chart them they did not line up nearly as I thought they would.  But oddly, they are the 2 songs that seem the most the same by casual listen.