Comparing songs from ADTOE with their I&W counterparts

[Chrissalix]

Lol at this thread again. This is so fucking daft.

You should all go dig out your Metallica albums and A>B any two of Fade To Black, Welcome Home Sanitarium and One. Then check the similarities, remind yourselves of how few people give a shit that these three classic metal songs BY THE SAME BAND ON CONSECUTIVE ALBUMS are all considered stone wall classics, then go and rethink your lives. If you want, you can do the same with any of the opening tracks on a Metallica thrash album. 5-7 minute long songs in E Minor with heavy use of the flatted 5th. It's called having a signature sound. Christ you lot.

[jdprsaga]

my thoughts on lost not forgotten - under a glass moon:  (not detailed)

Intro - Same technique guitar wise.. it is the same idea. (the only two songs with this).. different melody tho.
unison - uagm doesn't have one.
first verse: metal guitar riff driven (wow this is not new)
Chorus: not new
Mellow verse: Ok.. both have the same structure since lyrics started.
Chorus: not new.
Instrument section previous the solos: they have done it 50+ times..  again.. they are keeping about the same structure.
Guitar solo: both are long.. i think petrucci noticed that UAGM solo is famous because it covered lots of different techniques.. he did it on this one again but adding lots of different styles.
Keyboard Solo: OK.. this is more than obvious. they are almost the same.
Final Chorus: ok.. its a final chorus.. not much to say there.

So, i would say they definitely used UAGM  structure as a base for this one and I don't find anything wrong with that!

P.S. English is not my first language so i might have written the wrong "music term" for what i wanted to say, so don't be harsh with me. I think you all can understand my point.

[AngelBack]

I have taken the time to catalog all of DT's song structures since WDADU.  I have further calculated all possible permutations and combinations of structure left for them to use in order to have their next album considered something other than a desperate rewrite.

The bad news is their is only one structure left, so the next album will contain one 80 minute song with the following structure:

Outro
Intro
Solo
Chorus
V2
V3
V1
Unison
Solo
Sample from old movie

[TheGoodDoctor]

Thiago chose images and words because that's the meaning he wanted to make. If you desire to truly be objective about this, then go chart the entire discography. NOT ONE ALBUM!

[jdprsaga]

@ angelback

Hahahaha thas funny 

[theseoafs]

I have taken the time to catalog all of DT's song structures since WDADU.  I have further calculated all possible permutations and combinations of structure left for them to use in order to have their next album considered something other than a desperate rewrite.

The bad news is their is only one structure left, so the next album will contain one 80 minute song with the following structure:

Outro
Intro
Solo
Chorus
V2
V3
V1
Unison
Solo
Sample from old movie

[TheGoodDoctor]

"Take all of me
The desires that keep burning deep inside
Cast them all away
And help to give me strength to face another day
I am ready
Help me be what I can be"

- root of all evil

Notice that this theme gets repeated. Even hinted at musically and not lyrically. However, another blatant example:

"I am ready
Help me be what I can be"
-the shattered fortress

[Chrissalix]

"Take all of me
The desires that keep burning deep inside
Cast them all away
And help to give me strength to face another day
I am ready
Help me be what I can be"

- root of all evil

Notice that this theme gets repeated. Even hinted at musically and not lyrically. However, another blatant example:

"I am ready
Help me be what I can be"
-the shattered fortress

Not sure if serious...

[BlobVanDam]

I have taken the time to catalog all of DT's song structures since WDADU.  I have further calculated all possible permutations and combinations of structure left for them to use in order to have their next album considered something other than a desperate rewrite.

The bad news is their is only one structure left, so the next album will contain one 80 minute song with the following structure:

Outro - ROSEBUD
Intro
Solo
Chorus
V2
V3
V1
Unison
Solo
Sample from old movie - ROSEBUD

Citizen Kane?

[Priest of Syrinx]

I have taken the time to catalog all of DT's song structures since WDADU.  I have further calculated all possible permutations and combinations of structure left for them to use in order to have their next album considered something other than a desperate rewrite.

The bad news is their is only one structure left, so the next album will contain one 80 minute song with the following structure:

Outro
Intro
Solo
Chorus
V2
V3
V1
Unison
Solo
Sample from old movie

lollywood 

[Infinite Cactus]

Why are some of you so butthurt that some people see similarities in song structures? Most of us who see a few similarities are saying its a bad thing. Saying they don't exist at all or insinuating it's ridiculous that some of us think certain songs have a similar vibe makes you look like a pretentious douche. If you don't see it, that's fine, but why get on those who are having a discussion about it? I never said anything about it being negative. But I definitely see in in about 3 songs and I think it's cool as shit as a nugget/or basis for writing. If you don't think LNF, OTBOA and BAI, have a total UAGM, PMU, and LTL vibe that's cool mates. But don't shit on me because I think they have a similar vibe.

[duncan3dc]

I charted Outcry and Metropolis today:
(Metropolis Time Stamp on Left / Outcry on Right)

0:00  Intro with Keys   0:00
0:40  Intro Guitar Riff Over Keys (Full Band)  0:45
1:18  Transition to RIFF 1A  1:30
1:23  RIFF 1A   1:36
1:32  RIFF 1A w/Keys  1:47
1:42  RIFF 1B  1:58
1:51  Vocals RIFF 1B  2:10
2:13  Vocals PROGRESSION 1  2:33
2:28  Vocals 2A (Mellow Section)  3:10  <----In Metropolis this is clean guitar & in Outcry it's keys
3:08  Vocals 2B RIFF 2   3:30  <----In Outcry this sounds more like a Chorus
3:26  RIFF 1A Reprise for transition   3:52
3:36  Vocals RIFF 1A   4:03
3:59  Vocals PROGRESSION 1   4:26
4:13  End Vocal Sections   4:44
4:18  Instrumental Section Starts 4:53
7:23   Instrumental Section ending build-up   7:54
8:04   PROGRESSION 2 (mellow)   8:44   <----- in Metropolis this is clean guitar, in Outcry it's keys
8:16   Vocals PROGRESSION 2   9:07
8:28   Vocals RIFF 2   9:29
8:45   Vocals PROGRESSION 3   10:16
9:10   Ending Chord and Hold   10:49

That is such a common structure though! I'm sure loads of DT songs use that!

Seriously though, what I don't get is the people that don't care for this nugget. Why are you in the thread?
There are people here that think this is cool, and want to discuss it. Most of us aren't saying the band is out of ideas, or that this was some lame attempt to replicate the success of Images, we just think it's cool.

[Infinite Cactus]

I feel like if this had been brought up without MP insinuating anything, then there wouldn't be this much hostility and need to defend "nothing from no one."

[Chrissalix]

I feel like if this had been brought up without MP insinuating anything, then there wouldn't be this much hostility and need to defend "nothing from no one."

I just find it funny, because it makes MP a massive hypocrit. I suggest people A>B Never Enough and Stockholm Syndrome by Muse.

[Montsegur97]

Been following most of these threads here and on the MP forums, and I wonder if people understand that similar structure doesn't mean the songs sound the same.  Also, I do think most people are considering this a pretty cool thing overall if they did intentionally do it.  I've definitely noticed it, especially with OTBOA and PME and Breaking All Illusions vs Learning to Live, and it doesn't take anything away.  In fact, I probably enjoy most songs from ADTOE more so then I&W.

Did Thiago go overboard, oh ya, but the way he covers their songs and such, he'd really notice it.  You practice songs this long and complex by breaking them down.  Even he said he enjoyed the new album, I just think people are confusing structure and it sounding the same.  You could use the same structure on 5 songs and have all sound very different based on scales, modes, etc.

[BlobVanDam]

Great first post.

[Infinite Cactus]

Been following most of these threads here and on the MP forums, and I wonder if people understand that similar structure doesn't mean the songs sound the same.  Also, I do think most people are considering this a pretty cool thing overall if they did intentionally do it.  I've definitely noticed it, especially with OTBOA and PME and Breaking All Illusions vs Learning to Live, and it doesn't take anything away.  In fact, I probably enjoy most songs from ADTOE more so then I&W.

Did Thiago go overboard, oh ya, but the way he covers their songs and such, he'd really notice it.  You practice songs this long and complex by breaking them down.  Even he said he enjoyed the new album, I just think people are confusing structure and it sounding the same.  You could use the same structure on 5 songs and have all sound very different based on scales, modes, etc.

I agree with this

[duncan3dc]

I just find it funny, because it makes MP a massive hypocrit. I suggest people A>B Never Enough and Stockholm Syndrome by Muse.

I always thought the similarity was the riffs and the vocal style, but actually yeh they do share a very similar structure.
That makes Portnoy's comment even stranger. Although arguably that wasn't a conscious thing, but more that they were influenced by the sound of the muse track and didn't realise they'd taken it along the same structure.

[erciccio]

Why are some of you so butthurt that some people see similarities in song structures? Most of us who see a few similarities are saying its a bad thing. Saying they don't exist at all or insinuating it's ridiculous that some of us think certain songs have a similar vibe makes you look like a pretentious douche. If you don't see it, that's fine, but why get on those who are having a discussion about it? I never said anything about it being negative. But I definitely see in in about 3 songs and I think it's cool as shit as a nugget/or basis for writing. If you don't think LNF, OTBOA and BAI, have a total UAGM, PMU, and LTL vibe that's cool mates. But don't shit on me because I think they have a similar vibe.

The only problem that I see is that some people are looking at the similarities omitting the differences in the analysis, as if they were just not there. Greatest example is again LNF/ UAGM...you cannot just ignore that in LNF there is a (beautiful) piano intro, a (crazy) unison section, and a straigth 4/4 metal verse. And there is NOTHING like that in UGM structure. And I'm not talking about the vibe or anything else.

Thiago (not you...) arrived to the point of saying that some differences were put there just to hide the similarties in the structure.

It really sounds like saying that Beethoven's 9th has just the same structure in 3 movements as all the others simphonies. (ops, yeah, it's the first time in the history where there's a 4th movement ath the end with a chorus...but Ludwig put it there just to hide the fact that he was copying) 

[ResultsMayVary]

I just find it funny, because it makes MP a massive hypocrit. I suggest people A>B Never Enough and Stockholm Syndrome by Muse.

I always thought the similarity was the riffs and the vocal style, but actually yeh they do share a very similar structure.
That makes Portnoy's comment even stranger. Although arguably that wasn't a conscious thing, but more that they were influenced by the sound of the muse track and didn't realise they'd taken it along the same structure.

That makes MP look like he made that comment just as a jab towards DT. Too bad pretty much everyone notices that these kind of similarities were present during when he orchestrated how songs would be structured.

[AngelBack]

Why are some of you so butthurt that some people see similarities in song structures? Most of us who see a few similarities are saying its a bad thing. Saying they don't exist at all or insinuating it's ridiculous that some of us think certain songs have a similar vibe makes you look like a pretentious douche. If you don't see it, that's fine, but why get on those who are having a discussion about it? I never said anything about it being negative. But I definitely see in in about 3 songs and I think it's cool as shit as a nugget/or basis for writing. If you don't think LNF, OTBOA and BAI, have a total UAGM, PMU, and LTL vibe that's cool mates. But don't shit on me because I think they have a similar vibe.

The only problem that I see is that some people are looking at the similarities omitting the differences in the analysis, as if they were just not there. Greatest example is again LNF/ UAGM...you cannot just ignore that in LNF there is a (beautiful) piano intro, a (crazy) unison section, and a straigth 4/4 metal verse. And there is NOTHING like that in UGM structure. And I'm not talking about the vibe or anything else.

Thiago (not you...) arrived to the point of saying that some differences were put there just to hide the similarties in the structure.

It really sounds like saying that Beethoven's 9th has just the same structure in 3 movements as all the others simphonies. (ops, yeah, it's the first time in the history where there's a 4th movement ath the end with a chorus...but Ludwig put it there just to hide the fact that he was copying) 

Well Played, Sir.

[tweeg]

To my ears the structures sound very close, and in some songs exactly the same, as the I&W structures. In my opinion they had to do this intentionally. Not that I mind at all. The album sounds very modern and the ideas are all pretty new to my ears.

Look at a band like Van Halen (just a totally random example). The pretty much have the same structure for every song! So the fact that DT used some old charts isn't that big of a deal. And as mentioned in previous posts Metallica does this all the time. For example One and The Day that Never Comes are exact. Doesn't mean that Metallica's out of ideas. They just like writing within a certain musical form sometimes.

And I'd rather Lost Not Forgotten sounding like UAGM than being "strongly influenced" by Solsbury Hill on 6DOIT and The Spirit of Radio on the start of TBOT.

[ResultsMayVary]

What bothers me about this whole situation is that some people are pretty much convinced that they DID use the old charts. No one knows for sure if they specifically got out the chart for UAGM and said "hey, we can do this here and here," etc. For all we know from facts, it could be a coincidence. And that theory isn't ridiculous, seeing that the similarities only runs two or three sections in a row at a time (for like 2 or 3 total times).

And just because MP commented on this by saying they did that doesn't mean they did. MP is not in the band and he wasn't present at the writing sessions. I respect him that he would very well know all the older DT songs, but that does not give him the authority to say whether or not DT specifically took the charts from I&W and used them to help write the new songs.

[Orthogonal]

Come on guys, if you are one of the people that don't see any similarities or think this is overboard, just excuse yourself from this thread. The rest of us will sit here and analyze it to minute details and get tremendous satisfaction in seeing how well DT pulled this off. With the exception of Marla, everyone who sees the structural similiarities, whether intentional or an incredible coincidence, think its just plain awesome. Some songs are very closely structurally related, others less so, but the similarities remain.

Pretty much every group does this anyway with the standard pop song structure Intro-verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus-outro song structure. DT even has some like that, but for whatever reason, they decided to make another album that uses similar structures that happen to be more diverse than your standard mainstream song. No one is making bad value judgements of this, we are just enjoying that it happened.

[KevShmev]

The idea that DT sat down with the charts and mapped the songs out that way is just laughable.  Whatever structural similarities are there, it is likely that the I&W songs are deeply ingrained in all of their heads, inside and out, from playing most of them live non-stop for nearly 20 years, so if/when they decided to go a bit old school and familiar with the songwriting, it was easy to integrate the new melodies and riffs into a structure they knew had worked for them extremely well in the past.  Like I have said 934 times already, all bands do it.  It is not a big deal.

[Chrissalix]

I just find it funny, because it makes MP a massive hypocrit. I suggest people A>B Never Enough and Stockholm Syndrome by Muse.

I always thought the similarity was the riffs and the vocal style, but actually yeh they do share a very similar structure.
That makes Portnoy's comment even stranger. Although arguably that wasn't a conscious thing, but more that they were influenced by the sound of the muse track and didn't realise they'd taken it along the same structure.

That makes MP look like he made that comment just as a jab towards DT. Too bad pretty much everyone notices that these kind of similarities were present during when he orchestrated how songs would be structured.

Almost every band has songs with similar structures. Iron Maiden is another one. The Trooper and The Wicker Man also have very similar structures to name but one example. The overreaction to something that is very, very regular is hilarious.

[MarlaHooch]

Why are some of you so butthurt that some people see similarities in song structures? Most of us who see a few similarities are saying its a bad thing. Saying they don't exist at all or insinuating it's ridiculous that some of us think certain songs have a similar vibe makes you look like a pretentious douche. If you don't see it, that's fine, but why get on those who are having a discussion about it? I never said anything about it being negative. But I definitely see in in about 3 songs and I think it's cool as shit as a nugget/or basis for writing. If you don't think LNF, OTBOA and BAI, have a total UAGM, PMU, and LTL vibe that's cool mates. But don't shit on me because I think they have a similar vibe.

This.  And everyone should be entitled to their view. 

Under normal circumstances, I admit I'd think this was a cool idea.  My ONLY problem with them doing this is because MP had a hand in arranging the charts that they're re-using.  Even if, for the sake of argument, he only contributed to 10% of the arrangement process for "Under A Glass Moon", I don't think it's an appropriate time for the band to be doing something like this when they're supposedly moving on/better off without him/having a better time during the writing process.  If so, why not put out the first album without MP and have it be completely original?

*Cue people comparing it to putting out ACOS after Kevin Moore left, as if Kevin is comparable to MP or as if Kevin cares at all about his time or contributions with the band*

[ResultsMayVary]

I just find it funny, because it makes MP a massive hypocrit. I suggest people A>B Never Enough and Stockholm Syndrome by Muse.

I always thought the similarity was the riffs and the vocal style, but actually yeh they do share a very similar structure.
That makes Portnoy's comment even stranger. Although arguably that wasn't a conscious thing, but more that they were influenced by the sound of the muse track and didn't realise they'd taken it along the same structure.

That makes MP look like he made that comment just as a jab towards DT. Too bad pretty much everyone notices that these kind of similarities were present during when he orchestrated how songs would be structured.

Almost every band has songs with similar structures. Iron Maiden is another one. The Trooper and The Wicker Man also have very similar structures to name but one example. The overreaction to something that is very, very regular is hilarious.

I know, that's why its weird when MP suggests that's a bad thing. DT has done this before and so have every other band in the business as you listed a few.

[ResultsMayVary]

This.  And everyone should be entitled to their view. 

Under normal circumstances, I admit I'd think this was a cool idea.  My ONLY problem with them doing this is because MP had a hand in arranging the charts that they're re-using.  Even if, for the sake of argument, he only contributed to 10% of the arrangement process for "Under A Glass Moon", I don't think it's an appropriate time for the band to be doing something like this when they're supposedly moving on/better off without him/having a better time during the writing process.  If so, why not put out the first album without MP and have it be completely original?

*Cue people comparing it to putting out ACOS after Kevin Moore left, as if Kevin is comparable to MP or as if Kevin cares at all about his time or contributions with the band*

Everyone is entitled to their own view. No one is disputing that at all.

DT certainly isn't sitting down with the charts and saying "we can do this here and here..." etc. Kev says it the best:

The idea that DT sat down with the charts and mapped the songs out that way is just laughable.  Whatever structural similarities are there, it is likely that the I&W songs are deeply ingrained in all of their heads, inside and out, from playing most of them live non-stop for nearly 20 years, so if/when they decided to go a bit old school and familiar with the songwriting, it was easy to integrate the new melodies and riffs into a structure they knew had worked for them extremely well in the past.  Like I have said 934 times already, all bands do it.  It is not a big deal.

And also, it was MP's choice to leave the band. The idea that they shouldn't do something similar to an old school writing process simply because MP may have had a hand in helping with the structure is ridiculous. Dream Theater is Dream Theater, regardless of what member lineup you use in your argument. The fact that JP and JMX have been in DT for their entire career is a better representation of the DT sound, seeing as they probably wrote the majority UAGM along with KM.

And if we used your logic about the 'moving on' part of your post (which I don't agree with), then I would urge you to contact MP and tell them DT wants the riff from "Lie" back from A-Mob.

[BlobVanDam]

I know, that's why its weird when MP suggests that's a bad thing. DT has done this before and so have every other band in the business as you listed a few.

MP didn't say it was bad. He said it was sorta of neat if an intentional nugget, but sad if their motivation was to rewrite the past. Or something. To be honest, the comment doesn't really make sense. This whole thing is stupid.
There are some vague similarities. They may or may not have been intentional. They don't matter. The music is good. Let's all listen and enjoy it.

[Chrissalix]

I just find it funny, because it makes MP a massive hypocrit. I suggest people A>B Never Enough and Stockholm Syndrome by Muse.

I always thought the similarity was the riffs and the vocal style, but actually yeh they do share a very similar structure.
That makes Portnoy's comment even stranger. Although arguably that wasn't a conscious thing, but more that they were influenced by the sound of the muse track and didn't realise they'd taken it along the same structure.

That makes MP look like he made that comment just as a jab towards DT. Too bad pretty much everyone notices that these kind of similarities were present during when he orchestrated how songs would be structured.

Almost every band has songs with similar structures. Iron Maiden is another one. The Trooper and The Wicker Man also have very similar structures to name but one example. The overreaction to something that is very, very regular is hilarious.

I know, that's why its weird when MP suggests that's a bad thing. DT has done this before and so have every other band in the business as you listed a few.

Exactly. I'm not disagreeing with you. FWIW I reckon it was a shot at the band. MP was a great drummer and a massive part of the band we all love but he's not acted with any class since the split and you could argue he's been in a downward spiral in terms of egocentric behavior since Systematic Chaos. That's my opinion. I know you're not allowed to bash MP on here but whatever, that's what I think.

[Millais]

It is not a big deal.

There are some vague similarities. They may or may not have been intentional. They don't matter. The music is good. Let's all listen and enjoy it.

[MarlaHooch]

And also, it was MP's choice to leave the band. The idea that they shouldn't do something similar to an old school writing process simply because MP may have had a hand in helping with the structure is ridiculous. Dream Theater is Dream Theater, regardless of what member lineup you use in your argument. The fact that JP and JMX have been in DT for their entire career is a better representation of the DT sound, seeing as they probably wrote the majority UAGM along with KM.

And if we used your logic about the 'moving on' part of your post (which I don't agree with), then I would urge you to contact MP and tell them DT wants the riff from "Lie" back from A-Mob.

I disagree and wholly believe they intended to do this.  Ever see the early Seinfeld episode where the lady is talking about "small coincidences" vs. "big coincidences"?  While I appreciate and miss some of his stamps on the band, I'm no MP fanboy.  I really think AMob is terrible so far, but the "Lie" similarity is a "small coincidence" whereas lifting the entire chart for UAGM is a "big coincidence" under your theory that this was somehow an accident or in any way unintentional.  I'm quite sure - and I'm willing to bet JP will admit - that they intended to rebuild the song from the ground up. 

You're entitled to your view that it shouldn't be a big deal.  My argument is DT are BETTER THAN THIS.  That's an all-caps emphasized compliment right there.  They shouldn't be re-writing the past right as they're moving on from arguably their most influential/controlling member.  It'd be a cool idea for, say, a 20th anniversary tribute EP or something, but not for the first music right out of the gate with Mangini (who, in my opinion, is amazing and deserves better than this approach). 

Overall, my opinion of ADToE was originally that they made a mistake rushing to get an album out without Mangini's contributions and I felt the album sounded rather rushed and uninspired as a result, though by no means did I think it was a "bad" album.  Just a bit flat, perhaps.  Now that this "quirk" about the album has come to light, I'm just disappointed.  I think considering how lame MP has been in the press, the band had a real opportunity to handle this with class and release a badass album that showed they didn't need him to move on artistically.  I originally thought the album was a bit of a step back artistically, and now for me this is the proof.

Thank you for disagreeing in a way that isn't rude or insulting.  Cheers   

[TheGoodDoctor]

As far Octavarium sounding like Muse (panic attack, never enough; see Stockholm syndrome) they have commented on it being Muse inspired w/ MP saying it's one of his favorite modern bands. Why would he take issue with charting? DT has recycled themes before and it makes the music awesome to revisit those keepsakes. But charting? Get real.

I think we can all agree that what made i&w strong was the hooks. Same goes for ADTOE. Who gives a damn?

[reo73]

The idea that DT sat down with the charts and mapped the songs out that way is just laughable.  Whatever structural similarities are there, it is likely that the I&W songs are deeply ingrained in all of their heads, inside and out, from playing most of them live non-stop for nearly 20 years, so if/when they decided to go a bit old school and familiar with the songwriting, it was easy to integrate the new melodies and riffs into a structure they knew had worked for them extremely well in the past.  Like I have said 934 times already, all bands do it.  It is not a big deal.

KS...your act here is getting tiring.  It is obvious you have no understanding musically of what some of us are talking about and yet you feel the need to come in and bash those who want to discuss it and discount any meaningful piece of info we may throw out that sheds light on the topic.  The fact is, the structural similarities exist and by everything I know and understand about music in my 25 years of being a musician, and everything I know about DTs music this is no subconscious coincidental event  by the band.  It was intentional whether you like it or not and most of us agree that it is a very fascinating concept of how to create a song.

If you want to contribute then please provide a structural break down for me of both OTBOA/PMU or LNF/UAGM or Outcry/Metropolis and show me where we are completely wrong.  If not then please just leave at this point an let the rest of us get on with our analysis

Edit: retraction of the word 'fact'.  Use the word 'opinion'.