What's the obsession with Kevin Moore?

[BlobVanDam]

With regards to JR doin KM's solo's, I'd say that's the issue....KM's solo's are so memorable that they become an important part of the song. So when JR changes them it is very noticeable.

I couldn't agree more. Rudess is certainly an amazing player, but when he changes KM's solos i really dislike them (Take the time, Under a glass moon for example). Just wanky and ruining the song for me.
The irony is that during the drummer auditions he talked about some drummers changing song that people are used to listen to in a certain way, but he is the one changing some of the best keyboard solos into a blurried mix of notes.

There's a difference between changing the foundation of the rhythm section of the song, and changing a solo on top. In fact, they're opposite ends of the spectrum. A solo is like icing on a cake, whereas the drums are more like the cake mixture itself.

[nikatapi]

You are right, there is a difference, but to me, these solos are essential to the structure of the songs and are really well writen, so it is a bit annoying to see them "butchered" in live performances.
I'm not trying to be offensive against JR, and i really like some of his work, but i guess this obsession with KM still exists because he didn't overplay and he was a great composer offering a simplistic song oriented approach to an otherwise over the top band.
JR on the other hand, is an amazing musician and has created some great stuff during his time with DT, but to me he sometimes lacks the feeling of KM.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

You are right, there is a difference, but to me, these solos are essential to the structure of the songs and are really well writen, so it is a bit annoying to see them "butchered" in live performances.
I'm not trying to be offensive against JR, and i really like some of his work, but i guess this obsession with KM still exists because he didn't overplay and he was a great composer offering a simplistic song oriented approach to an otherwise over the top band.
JR on the other hand, is an amazing musician and has created some great stuff during his time with DT, but to me he sometimes lacks the feeling of KM.

This. But also this:

The piano sets the mood beautifully. I am baffled that anyone considers the piano in OTBOA over the top.
It's a solo piano passage, so it's written to take the spotlight, and doesn't need to sit in the background like it would in a whole band situation where it could overshadow the other instruments. And because it's solo, it needs to add more depth so it doesn't sound empty.

Rudess' piano stuff is generally great, except for the ridiculous ragtime bit in TDEN. Was thrilled to see that come in on OTBOA. I feel like he's at his best either on the piano or continuum, actually, as far as leads go.

I do agree with Blob that JR stays true to KMs rhythm/backing parts, and that he creates excellent ones on his own. The choir part on OTBOA gives me chills every time, and there are a ton of other examples of JR being an excellent support player.

I feel like 99% of complaints about Rudess boil down to his solos--in a genre this technical, so much of the attention gets directed there, for better or worse. And I have to say, there aren't a whole lot of Rudess solos that I consider truly memorable. While Moore was obviously not as skilled of a player, I found most of his solos to be very memorable because they were so tied-in with what the rest of the band was doing. So many of Rudess' solos seem to just overwhelm everything beneath them and rob the song of momentum. There are some exceptions--ANTR, TDOE, FT, TGD, BTL, to name a few--but I feel like over half of Rudess' solos don't enhance the song. Some of that may be due to Portnoy's OMG TRADEOFFS arrangement shtick, but there's just not a whole lot of memorable melody in those solos. I mean, in Rudess-era DT, if I had to rank all the solos played by any members, I'd probably list six or seven Petrucci solos, if not more, before getting to Rudess' best. With Moore (pre-Awake anyway) I felt like the keyboards and guitars had near-equal levels of excellence in the solos.

But that's just me, of course. I can't help what sticks in my head and what doesn't, and if somebody finds JRs stuff to really resonate with them more than KMs, it's certainly not my place to say "BUT NO!"

[Ħ]

ohherewego.jpg

[orcus116]

Kev, what ones does he "wank up"? Looking through all of the KM era songs, he plays them all note for note that I can think of.

"Take The Time" off of Chaos In Motion. I dunno if that was a Zen Riffer moment but it's such a tremendous hack job that I can't even listen to that version of the song any more. Moore's solo is one of the reasons I anticipate listening to that song so to hear it butchered upsets me a bit.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Kev, what ones does he "wank up"? Looking through all of the KM era songs, he plays them all note for note that I can think of.

"Take The Time" off of Chaos In Motion. I dunno if that was a Zen Riffer moment but it's such a tremendous hack job that I can't even listen to that version of the song any more. Moore's solo is one of the reasons I anticipate listening to that song so to hear it butchered upsets me a bit.

Funny thing is, I find this to be one of his better improv jobs. The worst offender to me is the circus break in UaGM on Score.

[Setebos]

Can't understand the obsession either.
Yes, not everything Rudess does is golden, but he has given us so much stuff that really is (One Last Time! Disappear! Blind Faith! Octavarium! TCOT! And much more...)

And one should not forget, that KM was only involved in three records, whereas Jordan has done six (with ADTOE seven).
I'm sure, if there would have been as many albums with KM as with Jordan, there would have been a few more stinkers as well (although probably not due to excessive wankery )

[The Presence of Frenemies]

I'm sure, if there would have been as many albums with KM as with Jordan, there would have been a few more stinkers as well (although probably not due to excessive wankery )

But see, that's the thing. If it didn't fit, Moore didn't use it. That's pretty much been his shtick his whole career--his post-DT work takes it to an extreme. It's tough to make a keyboard part legitimately BAD if it's just texture, and Moore's track record with solos was good.

I will say, though, that the idea of being "obsessed" with KM over JR is kind of ridiculous. Then again, I don't think many of the DTF users really are. It's one thing to prefer Moore's playing and thus defend it whenever keyboard arguments come up--it's quite another to be stuck 17 years into the past. I certainly don't listen to Rudess-era stuff and go "Man, I wish Moore were around," especially since Moore's post-DT output does nothing for me.

[ricky]

I'm sure, if there would have been as many albums with KM as with Jordan, there would have been a few more stinkers as well (although probably not due to excessive wankery )

I will say, though, that the idea of being "obsessed" with KM over JR is kind of ridiculous.

that's not what the op said, though. im obsessed with kevmo, but i don't think he is better than rudess.

[MetropolisxPt1]

KM has made more mistakes playing his own lines then Jordan has since he has been in the band.

KM is great is his own right but is almost incomparable to Jordan, stylistically you couldn't get any two more different players.

[Implode]

Kev, what ones does he "wank up"? Looking through all of the KM era songs, he plays them all note for note that I can think of.

"Take The Time" off of Chaos In Motion. I dunno if that was a Zen Riffer moment but it's such a tremendous hack job that I can't even listen to that version of the song any more. Moore's solo is one of the reasons I anticipate listening to that song so to hear it butchered upsets me a bit.

I agree. I love JR, but in my opinion he completely butchered that solo in that performance. KM's solo in Take the Time is my favorite keyboard solo in all of DT.

[KevShmev]

I could not disagree more.  I lost count at how many times I've heard Rudess play a part from a KM-era DT song and thought, "Good grief, why did he ruin it by playing it like that?"  Sure, it might have been faster and/or more technical, but who cares?  Music is not a contest to see who can play the fastest.  And I say that, being someone who enjoys most of JR's work in the band (a good number of solos notwithstanding).  I just hate when he feels the need to "wank up" a KM keyboard part that was originally more about feel and emotion than speed and technique.

I would like an example.

I gave one before this reply of yours.  To repeat it:

The one example I've always given the most (because it stuck out so much) is the section from 4:19 -4:32 in the studio version of Only a Matter of Time (before the final vocal section of the song: "likely or not...").  Listen to Rudess do it on the Budokan or WDADR shows; he destroys that little section with arpeggios out the wazoo, turning a beautiful little segue into a wankfest.

Take the Time has also been mentioned since, which is another good example.

 
Also, I like how you guys just abruptly disregarded the second part of my post You just kind of proved my point that you are hung up on the small things when it comes to comparing KM and JR, like how JR physically plays some songs live rather than other, more significant things he has provided, for example the things I listed, that proves that he's not all about technical skill, but adds things to DT that KM would never have been able to. For example, I doubt that KM possesses the level of musicianship required to write a thoroughly orchestraic piece like Overture.

Hung up on small things?  Is this your way of dismissing any slight criticism we have as being "just a small thing"? 

Also, your comment about Moore not having the musicianship to write something like Overture is pure speculation, and given Moore's very strong compositional skills, it has very little merit since Moore has shown himself to be an outstanding writer (within a band AND on his own).

In any case, I looked through some clips where JR plays KM keyboard parts, and he basically stays true to it, but he adds some extra to them sometimes. It's only proof of a good musician to take another musicians work, being able to reproduce it but also have the guts to add your own signature to it. I didn't hear anyone complain when they heard how MM had enhanced MPs drum parts... and it's exactly the same situation.

Maybe, and I am just speculating here (like you like to do ), Mangini does a better job of enhancing on previously-written parts than Rudess does.  Not all enhancing is created equal.

With regards to JR doin KM's solo's, I'd say that's the issue....KM's solo's are so memorable that they become an important part of the song. So when JR changes them it is very noticeable.

I'd agree with that. 

With regards to JR doin KM's solo's, I'd say that's the issue....KM's solo's are so memorable that they become an important part of the song. So when JR changes them it is very noticeable.

I couldn't agree more. Rudess is certainly an amazing player, but when he changes KM's solos i really dislike them (Take the time, Under a glass moon for example). Just wanky and ruining the song for me.
The irony is that during the drummer auditions he talked about some drummers changing song that people are used to listen to in a certain way, but he is the one changing some of the best keyboard solos into a blurried mix of notes.

There's a difference between changing the foundation of the rhythm section of the song, and changing a solo on top. In fact, they're opposite ends of the spectrum. A solo is like icing on a cake, whereas the drums are more like the cake mixture itself.

That's true, but the irony was still rather delicious...like cake often is.

I feel like 99% of complaints about Rudess boil down to his solos--in a genre this technical, so much of the attention gets directed there, for better or worse. And I have to say, there aren't a whole lot of Rudess solos that I consider truly memorable. While Moore was obviously not as skilled of a player, I found most of his solos to be very memorable because they were so tied-in with what the rest of the band was doing. So many of Rudess' solos seem to just overwhelm everything beneath them and rob the song of momentum. There are some exceptions--ANTR, TDOE, FT, TGD, BTL, to name a few--but I feel like over half of Rudess' solos don't enhance the song. Some of that may be due to Portnoy's OMG TRADEOFFS arrangement shtick, but there's just not a whole lot of memorable melody in those solos. I mean, in Rudess-era DT, if I had to rank all the solos played by any members, I'd probably list six or seven Petrucci solos, if not more, before getting to Rudess' best. With Moore (pre-Awake anyway) I felt like the keyboards and guitars had near-equal levels of excellence in the solos.

But that's just me, of course. I can't help what sticks in my head and what doesn't, and if somebody finds JRs stuff to really resonate with them more than KMs, it's certainly not my place to say "BUT NO!"

*golf clap*  Very well-said!

I will say, though, that the idea of being "obsessed" with KM over JR is kind of ridiculous. Then again, I don't think many of the DTF users really are. It's one thing to prefer Moore's playing and thus defend it whenever keyboard arguments come up--it's quite another to be stuck 17 years into the past. I certainly don't listen to Rudess-era stuff and go "Man, I wish Moore were around,"

Amen to that! 

[BlobVanDam]

Kev, what ones does he "wank up"? Looking through all of the KM era songs, he plays them all note for note that I can think of.

"Take The Time" off of Chaos In Motion. I dunno if that was a Zen Riffer moment but it's such a tremendous hack job that I can't even listen to that version of the song any more. Moore's solo is one of the reasons I anticipate listening to that song so to hear it butchered upsets me a bit.

I'd already mentioned solos, as they're obviously different, and I can at least understand why people take issue there.
I was referring to the rest of the songs (such as the piano parts, which we were discussing). As I said earlier, aside from solos he plays things 99% the same. In fact, he often goes to great lengths to play the parts closer to the album than KM ever did or could. Take the ending of PMU. KM played the strings. JR played the two handed organ part and the octave string parts at once. There's also the crazy harmony lead in Metropolis where he plays both parts at once instead of just the one like KM did. So JR's ability is not always used just to wank it up. Often being the better player means he can play it closer to the album, and not just additions for the sake of showing off. 

He's not just changing parts for the sake of it. Understandably he changes solos to add his own feel, as happens often with people taking over solos in a band. Obviously some people here take issue with his decision to do that, and that's fine. But Jordan clearly has a lot of respect for the parts Kevin Moore wrote.

[FlyingBIZKIT]

Dude, it's Kevin Moore.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Kev, what ones does he "wank up"? Looking through all of the KM era songs, he plays them all note for note that I can think of.

"Take The Time" off of Chaos In Motion. I dunno if that was a Zen Riffer moment but it's such a tremendous hack job that I can't even listen to that version of the song any more. Moore's solo is one of the reasons I anticipate listening to that song so to hear it butchered upsets me a bit.

I'd already mentioned solos, as they're obviously different, and I can at least understand why people take issue there.
I was referring to the rest of the songs (such as the piano parts, which we were discussing). As I said earlier, aside from solos he plays things 99% the same. In fact, he often goes to great lengths to play the parts closer to the album than KM ever did or could. Take the ending of PMU. KM played the strings. JR played the two handed organ part and the octave string parts at once. There's also the crazy harmony lead in Metropolis where he plays both parts at once instead of just the one like KM did. So JR's ability is not always used just to wank it up. Often being the better player means he can play it closer to the album, and not just additions for the sake of showing off. 

He's not just changing parts for the sake of it. Understandably he changes solos to add his own feel, as happens often with people taking over solos in a band. Obviously some people here take issue with his decision to do that, and that's fine. But Jordan clearly has a lot of respect for the parts Kevin Moore wrote.

Funny how, when you get down to it, most disagreements are just each side misunderstanding what the other has to say. Your first sentence says it all, and there's no questioning the rest.

[nikatapi]

I guess sometimes the criticism is not only about JR's interpretation of old songs (and as Blob said he sometimes plays the parts better than KM himself did), but also about the creativity.
JR has written some really good stuff, but some really mediocre as well. My personal opinion is that he was confined by the "ass and balls" approach if the music, and given he is not so much a metal fan, he did what he could, not always succesfully.
On the more melodic songs, is where he really shines. And he sometimes can also create some sentimental parts, such as in Disappear and Through My Words.

[Bill Carson]

Some very good points being made here from both sides.....however.....I still have an issue which I'd like to point out again;
My problem with JR is.....OTBOA (exhibit A), lets go back to that piano break,
The problem is that its not a solo !!! Its a section of the music that breaks down & resides, its the calm before the storm (JP solo).
Now JR comes in with some beautiful chords but his embellishments are often fast scalar runs.
This is where the problem lies for me.
As soon as he does one of those runs it takes the listener out, out of the mood that was & should be set.
I put this down to a slight immaturity in his playing. He has this tendency to forget the song and just think of his parts as...his solo parts.
KM would never do that, everything he did served the song and that's what I do miss.
Its like the "humorous" parts that JR has added in the past e.g Endless Sacrifice (exhibit B) - he totally disregards the mood set in the song so that he can have his 5 seconds of fun.
I know I'm being a bit overly harsh but JR has shown that he can play for the song, no better example then the Count of Tuscany. And when you've been that good, there's no excuse for dropping away from that !

[BlobVanDam]

Some very good points being made here from both sides.....however.....I still have an issue which I'd like to point out again;
My problem with JR is.....OTBOA (exhibit A), lets go back to that piano break,
The problem is that its not a solo !!! Its a section of the music that breaks down & resides, its the calm before the storm (JP solo).
Now JR comes in with some beautiful chords but his embellishments are often fast scalar runs.
This is where the problem lies for me.
As soon as he does one of those runs it takes the listener out, out of the mood that was & should be set.
I put this down to a slight immaturity in his playing. He has this tendency to forget the song and just think of his parts as...his solo parts.
KM would never do that, everything he did served the song and that's what I do miss.
Its like the "humorous" parts that JR has added in the past e.g Endless Sacrifice (exhibit B) - he totally disregards the mood set in the song so that he can have his 5 seconds of fun.
I know I'm being a bit overly harsh but JR has shown that he can play for the song, no better example then the Count of Tuscany. And when you've been that good, there's no excuse for dropping away from that !

OTBOA doesn't take me out of the song at all. In fact it completely establishes the mood going into the new section. It is the start of an entirely new section, so there is no established mood coming in, and the part before is not the intended mood of the new section. You can't say what the mood "should" be, when that piano section is solely responsible for what the mood is and is supposed to be.
And it is a solo. It starts off unaccompanied, which is the purest definition of a solo, then when the rest of the band comes back in, he is still the intended focal point of the section until the guitar solo comes in. And it gradually pulls back leading to the guitar solo. The arrangement could not be any clearer about his purpose.
I don't see how his playing in this particular song can be taken as immature. It's a piano solo, so he plays some fast runs. Then the guitar solo comes in, and he resumes his place in the background as mere accompaniment, with some basic piano chords. At no point does he overstep the bounds of the song.

[Bill Carson]

You are right in that he does not overstep his bounds but what i'm talking about is more about the feel....which I guess is down to pure taste.
I'm listening to the flow of the song and for me, the song breaks down at the piano part. Its not a new bit its the continuation of the song.
And the song calls for a mellow piano, now his fast runs take me out of that particular piece. I do not see what he has added by playing those fast passages, all I can hear is what it has taken away.
I appreciate it does not have the same effect on you but with me it does.

[BlobVanDam]

It is down to taste, because there's no right or wrong for what the section calls for. That's up to the band. You think it calls for a mellow piano, but I feel the upfront piano is the perfect fit for the section.
Obviously it's a continuation of the song, since it's still maintaining the rough tempo and key, but the rest of the band completely stops, and the mood changes, so to me it's an entirely new section. Before that point, it's a pretty regular heavy track, so I don't know what he's taking away from the song at that point. To me his job is to transition into the solo section. And I think his approach works well. Fast playing does not automatically take away from a song.

[nikatapi]

It is down to taste, because there's no right or wrong for what the section calls for. That's up to the band. You think it calls for a mellow piano, but I feel the upfront piano is the perfect fit for the section.
Obviously it's a continuation of the song, since it's still maintaining the rough tempo and key, but the rest of the band completely stops, and the mood changes, so to me it's an entirely new section. Before that point, it's a pretty regular heavy track, so I don't know what he's taking away from the song at that point. To me his job is to transition into the solo section. And I think his approach works well. Fast playing does not automatically take away from a song.

Ι agree with you Blob, i believe the piano section is awesome and really fitting to the song.

[tri.ad]

I don't mind the piano solo either, JR does a pretty good job with it. I find it remarkable, though, that once the drums kick back in, he lets go of the more rubato-like style (including the half-arpeggiated chords) and rather goes with the groove, not to say that he restrains himself a bit.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Some very good points being made here from both sides.....however.....I still have an issue which I'd like to point out again;
My problem with JR is.....OTBOA (exhibit A), lets go back to that piano break,
The problem is that its not a solo !!! Its a section of the music that breaks down & resides, its the calm before the storm (JP solo).
Now JR comes in with some beautiful chords but his embellishments are often fast scalar runs.
This is where the problem lies for me.
As soon as he does one of those runs it takes the listener out, out of the mood that was & should be set.
I put this down to a slight immaturity in his playing. He has this tendency to forget the song and just think of his parts as...his solo parts.
KM would never do that, everything he did served the song and that's what I do miss.
Its like the "humorous" parts that JR has added in the past e.g Endless Sacrifice (exhibit B) - he totally disregards the mood set in the song so that he can have his 5 seconds of fun.
I know I'm being a bit overly harsh but JR has shown that he can play for the song, no better example then the Count of Tuscany. And when you've been that good, there's no excuse for dropping away from that !

The OTBOA piano is fine. Doesn't take me out of the song at all. That's not to say that your "mellow piano" suggestion WOULDN'T work, but I don't think I'd get much, if any, more out of that than what he actually wrote. Endless Sacrifice is weird, but at least that whole instrumental section is kind of zany. I'd cite the TDEN piano breaks, the keyboard break in TROAE, or the circus break in Score UAGM as better examples of what you're talking about...not to mention AROP.

Do I think Rudess adds in things that don't "fit with the song" sometimes? Absolutely, and I dislike those sections. But let's not get carried away with calling all of his fast parts inappopriate just because some are (although it is, of course, a matter of taste).

[ehra]

Kinda on topic; does KM no longer stream is stuff on his Chroma Key site or am I just dumb? All I can find is stuff on his newest album. I was always telling myself I need to buy those albums, I guess this would be my motivation if he took the songs down 

[Mosh]

He also does Standup Comedy now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-1v1LPzKQ8&feature=related

[MetropolisxPt1]

He also does Standup Comedy now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-1v1LPzKQ8&feature=related

Now wait a minute maann




kevroll'd

[Mosh]