What's the obsession with Kevin Moore?

[farsight]

please don't stone me, but I liked Derek Sherinian more than I liked Kevin Moore. There's just something about his keyboard sounds that brush me the wrong way, like the whole Learning to Live intro. IMO, DS is arguably just as tasteful as KM and sounds and complements JP's tone better.

[ACID_FOX]

In the context of Dream Theater, DS was my favourite. But as an overall musician, it's KM hands down.

[WildeSilas]

I was really disappointed that they let DS go for JR at first. I'd heard LTE and thought his playing was very wanky at times, while DS plays very tastefully, both on FII and on the two Platypus albums with JM. JR's playing actually put me off of SFAM and SDOIT. It wasn't until ToT came out and I really liked it that I was willing to go back and give the previous two albums a more focused listening. Glad I did, as they're both great, but there are still very, very few memorable JR riffs that have stuck with me when compared to KM, or especially anything DS did on FII - NM, LITS, Totears - all just incredible, timeless key tracks from DS. Octavarium and Solitary Shell are probably the only two tracks that stand out to me in terms of JR having a distinctive melody riff or solo section.

[wammabe]

I love the sounds Derek Sherinian used. Trial of Tears has some of my favorite keyboard texture-ish parts of all time, mainly behind Petrucci's awesome solo and the old-west-ish part after the instrumental section. The keyboard sounds in A Change of Seasons are also amazing.

[?]

I like Jens' work with Stratovarius and he's one of my favorite keyboardists but he wouldn't have been the right choice for DT.

[Magikernandy]

derek was better for the band than jens... johansson is all solos

He is a brilliant allround keyboardist, hammondplayer and pianist.

He would do great in DT.

Many people tend to underrate him.

[CrimsonSunrise]

Moore is to Rudess
as
David Gilmour is to Steve Vai

The Perfect analogy.....

On a side note....  How much of the Keys part of ACOS did DS write? 

[YtseJam]

They all did excellent work and made the albums what they are.

Kevin def had some moments I wish I could go in and delete.

Derek had some totally annoying tones but came up with some great stuff. New Millenium, Trial of tears etc just perfect.

Jordan has the biggest balls of them all. He's not afraid to take risks whether it be really odd moments that you say wtf the first time you hear like he did in SFAM yet he nailed that album. 6doit sounded like sesame street on ice the first time I heard it but I fell in love with it quickly. Def has his wanker moments but he is the best fit for DT IMO.

My whole reason for starting this thread was because I'm surprised so many people still wish he was in the band when we've had all of these other creations that would never exist if it weren't for the other guys & their influence. I'm sure there'll be threads like this on MP and MM too soon enough
Love hearing everyone's feedback though

[orcus116]

What KM sections would you get rid of? I've never heard that criticism before.

[Ħ]

Kev in DT always struck me as a background player.  He's not often at the forefront.  He's mostly just supplementing the others.  But JR is more of a lead.

[j]

Kev in DT always struck me as a background player.  He's not often at the forefront.  He's mostly just supplementing the others.  But JR is more of a lead.

I think that's a big part of the reason some people prefer Moore.  Personally, I'm not a huge fan of keyboards as a "lead" instrument in general.

-J

[IdoSC]

Kev in DT always struck me as a background player.  He's not often at the forefront.  He's mostly just supplementing the others.  But JR is more of a lead.

I think that's a big part of the reason some people prefer Moore.  Personally, I'm not a huge fan of keyboards as a "lead" instrument in general.

-J

I think that, the reason why many fans appreciate JR over KM, and the reason why DT feel better with Jordan, is that in this band each member needs to take the spotlight at some points of a record. Every member needs to have the desire to jam and improvise when performing live. To me, it feels like KM was quite lacking in those areas.

[orcus116]

Uhh, have you even listened to the albums KM was on? He takes the spotlight when he needs to and backs off when he needs to. The band members at that point were taking the spotlight whenever they needed to. You're crazy, dude.

[ReaPsTA]

Especially given that it's the album KM supposedly had nothing to do with, he carries a lot of parts of it.  6:00 is practically all him, he provides virtually all the non-vocal leads in CIAW, lots of leads in IF, same with Erotomania.  Voices he drives the ambiances of the song almost all by himself.  The Mirror has a few keyboard breaks, Lifting Shadows and Scarred both have lots of string leads, and Space Dye Vest is Space Dye Vest.

[KevShmev]

The last two posts prior to this one (by orcus and Reap) are both deadly accurate.

Kev in DT always struck me as a background player.  He's not often at the forefront.  He's mostly just supplementing the others.  But JR is more of a lead.

I think that's a big part of the reason some people prefer Moore.  Personally, I'm not a huge fan of keyboards as a "lead" instrument in general.

When it comes to metal, that is almost always the case for me (which is why I dislike a lot of prog metal, I suspect). 

[j]

The last two posts prior to this one (by orcus and Reap) are both deadly accurate.

Kev in DT always struck me as a background player.  He's not often at the forefront.  He's mostly just supplementing the others.  But JR is more of a lead.

I think that's a big part of the reason some people prefer Moore.  Personally, I'm not a huge fan of keyboards as a "lead" instrument in general.

When it comes to metal, that is almost always the case for me (which is why I dislike a lot of prog metal, I suspect). 

^Yeah I should have been more clear, I was referring to keyboards in rock/metal.

-J

[YtseJam]

What KM sections would you get rid of? I've never heard that criticism before.

Really? Just listen to Metropolis pt1

[pogoowner]

What KM sections would you get rid of? I've never heard that criticism before.

Really? Just listen to Metropolis pt1

You mean one of the most beloved songs they've ever released? Not sure you're gonna get much support on this one.

[farsight]

What KM sections would you get rid of? I've never heard that criticism before.

I'd definitely get rid of the LtL intro, particularly the part that sounds like a gameboy, I love the rest of the song though. but having to skip to 1:15 everytime I play it is preventing me from enjoying the greatness of that song.

[Bill Carson]

I think its unfair to compare the sounds KM was using on I&W to JR or DS. I mean you have to think of the time period they were recorded.
It would have been much different now

The reason why I have always preferred KM is that, IMO, he is a much more MATURE musician than JR.
Look no further than the latest DT song to see the evidence e.g. Piano break - He almost ruins the mood that he was meant to be setting with all the fast piano breaks.
We know he can play fast but we don't need to be beaten over the head with it everytime, it just takes the listener out.
If that was KM, he would feel no need to play a zillion notes when the chords added with a few tasteful embellishment would do.

[BlobVanDam]

The piano sets the mood beautifully. I am baffled that anyone considers the piano in OTBOA over the top.
It's a solo piano passage, so it's written to take the spotlight, and doesn't need to sit in the background like it would in a whole band situation where it could overshadow the other instruments. And because it's solo, it needs to add more depth so it doesn't sound empty.

[MarkFitDT]

The piano sets the mood beautifully. I am baffled that anyone considers the piano in OTBOA over the top.
It's a solo piano passage, so it's written to take the spotlight, and doesn't need to sit in the background like it would in a whole band situation where it could overshadow the other instruments. And because it's solo, it needs to add more depth so it doesn't sound empty.

agree 100% - there is absolutely nothing wrong with the solo piano passage in OTBOA.

[chrisgazpacho]

The piano sets the mood beautifully. I am baffled that anyone considers the piano in OTBOA over the top.

I wouldn't say it as over the top, more overused.  JR loves doing those piano flourishes and after hearing them for the 100th time it's kinda like, we get the point.  I think had he played that section more based on the chords and gave it some space it would have had way more weight and feel, would have made that section a little darker.

I like Jordan a lot but I will take Kev any day of the week in DT.  I loved his sounds, and feel.  His lead playing on I&W is so memorable and melodic which is what a solo should do.  I don't think there is a single solo JR has recorded that I like as much as any of Kev's solos on I&W.  Technically there is no doubt that JR is a genius and play circles around KM, but that's not always what it's all about.

I am looking forward to the new record though and was excited to hear Jordan say he really tried to come up with parts over JP's riffs instead of doubling them one of his "pig" sounds.  The counter parts that KM use to play I think are a big part of the classic DT sound and I think this approach of JR's has a lot to do with the "old school" comments with OTBOA.

That's my 2 cents.

Chris

[BlobVanDam]

The piano sets the mood beautifully. I am baffled that anyone considers the piano in OTBOA over the top.

I wouldn't say it as over the top, more overused.  JR loves doing those piano flourishes and after hearing them for the 100th time it's kinda like, we get the point.  I think had he played that section more based on the chords and gave it some space it would have had way more weight and feel, would have made that section a little darker.

I like Jordan a lot but I will take Kev any day of the week in DT.  I loved his sounds, and feel.  His lead playing on I&W is so memorable and melodic which is what a solo should do.  I don't think there is a single solo JR has recorded that I like as much as any of Kev's solos on I&W.  Technically there is no doubt that JR is a genius and play circles around KM, but that's not always what it's all about.

I am looking forward to the new record though and was excited to hear Jordan say he really tried to come up with parts over JP's riffs instead of doubling them one of his "pig" sounds.  The counter parts that KM use to play I think are a big part of the classic DT sound and I think this approach of JR's has a lot to do with the "old school" comments with OTBOA.

That's my 2 cents.

Chris

When was the last time Jordan really did that style of piano? I can't think of any off hand on BCASL. The piano in TBOT was extremely restrained. I don't recall that SC had any either. 8V had a fair bit of piano, but again that was quite restrained. The most recent I can think of that comes close is the outro to ITNOG, from 2003. Further back, I can think of examples on SDOIT and SFAM, but that's basically 8 years since he's played any piano parts this prominent. Far from overused. In fact, I constantly hear people complain that his piano abilities have been largely underutilized in favour of the heavier sounds.

I'm not going to argue against less can be more (lol wordplay), but none of KM's piano playing has much feel or emotion to me. They were all good, memorable, melodic piano parts, but JR's emotional expression on a piano is untouched by KM. Even listen to when JR is playing a straightforward simple part with no embellishment, such as TBOT, or SS, and JR has a real feel for dynamics, and tempo.

I know it comes down to personal taste for what is or isn't over the top, but JR's piano playing has always fitted well to me. The only one I'd possibly consider pushing the boundary is One Last Time, and I still love that one too. But I feel the OTBOA piano part fits the song nicely, and I'll be glad if his piano talents are being fully utilized on the new album similarly.

[j]

The only one I'd possibly consider pushing the boundary is One Last Time, and I still love that one too.

To me, that's arguably his best piano passage with DT, possibly excluding the Blind Faith break.  I don't have a problem with the piano break in OtBoA, but it's definitely in Rudess's "flurry of notes" style, which can be a little much in a lot of contexts.

-J

[Elaitch]

JR has the ability to play what KM could, but he's more skilled at every level. Need proof? Listen to any live recording of a DT-with-KM-song featuring JR playing the keyboard part. He stays true to the parts in those songs, and sometimes even perfected the sound with his own patches. KM close to never provided speed and/or technically based keyboard parts because... he probably couldn't; he just wasn't skilled enough. Also, KM might be a little more mature a musician than JR were or is, but JR has actually kept the aspects KM gave to Dream Theater, but added some spice on the top. And man, did it become tasty. Some of you guys are too hung up on the sometimes over-the-top solos JR has provided over the years, but I would like to remind all of you that it was JR that for example:

- Is the one who plays the atmospheric intro to Octavarium, totally on his own for about 4 minutes
- Is the one who plays the awesome Honky-Tonk piano solo in The Dance of Eternity
- Is the one who plays the mysterious keyboard part in Disappear
- Wrote the Overture to Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence in all it's orchestraic glory

etc.

And on top of this, he can easily play anything that KM ever wrote with Dream Theater. Once again I refer to live rcordings of older songs featuring him. In conclusion, there are more musical sides to JR than there were with KM, at least as far as contributions to Dream Theater is concerned.

[chrisgazpacho]

JR has the ability to play what KM could, but he's more skilled at every level. Need proof? Listen to any live recording of a DT-with-KM-song featuring JR playing the keyboard

I would never argue this for a second.  JR could play circles around KM.  The thread title is what's the obsession with KM, I was just stating why I prefer him as a player.  It's a matter of preference that's all.  I liked what KM did in his time with DT.  MM is clearly more skilled than MP, and I would prefer MP.  Same thing, just a matter of preference.  Skill is not always a deciding factor on what makes someone a great musician.

[KevShmev]

Yep, being a more skilled player does not necessarily make you a more enjoyable one to listen to, generally speaking, especially when we are talking about players at the level of both Moore and Rudess. 

Also:

JR has the ability to play what KM could, but he's more skilled at every level. Need proof? Listen to any live recording of a DT-with-KM-song featuring JR playing the keyboard part. He stays true to the parts in those songs, and sometimes even perfected the sound with his own patches.

I could not disagree more.  I lost count at how many times I've heard Rudess play a part from a KM-era DT song and thought, "Good grief, why did he ruin it by playing it like that?"  Sure, it might have been faster and/or more technical, but who cares?  Music is not a contest to see who can play the fastest.  And I say that, being someone who enjoys most of JR's work in the band (a good number of solos notwithstanding).  I just hate when he feels the need to "wank up" a KM keyboard part that was originally more about feel and emotion than speed and technique.

[BlobVanDam]

Kev, what ones does he "wank up"? Looking through all of the KM era songs, he plays them all note for note that I can think of.

[KevShmev]

The one example I've always given the most (because it stuck out so much) is the section from 4:19 -4:32 in the studio version of Only a Matter of Time (before the final vocal section of the song: "likely or not...").  Listen to Rudess do it on the Budokan or WDADR shows; he destroys that little section with arpeggios out the wazoo, turning a beautiful little segue into a wankfest.

[BlobVanDam]

Ah, well I didn't even look at WDADU, as I don't know any of it, so I've got nothing to say there. But I know the bit you mean, and I actually like it, but yeah, I can see your point on that one.

But for the vast majority of piano stuff, like Another Day, Wait For Sleep, Voices, he plays them spot on and respects the original parts. It's mostly solo leads where he takes liberties with changing or adding notes.

[Elaitch]

JR has the ability to play what KM could, but he's more skilled at every level. Need proof? Listen to any live recording of a DT-with-KM-song featuring JR playing the keyboard

I would never argue this for a second.  JR could play circles around KM.  The thread title is what's the obsession with KM, I was just stating why I prefer him as a player.  It's a matter of preference that's all.  I liked what KM did in his time with DT.  MM is clearly more skilled than MP, and I would prefer MP.  Same thing, just a matter of preference.  Skill is not always a deciding factor on what makes someone a great musician.

What I meant when I said "skilled" is that he possesses a higher level of musicianship on every level, considering he can play KMs parts the way KM did, but manages to add his own unique flavour to it, and on top of that he's also a more "skilled" player when it comes to technique, speed and so on, and is able to add a side to DT that KM never would've managed. But not only because of his higher technical skill, as I stated in my previous post;

[...] but JR has actually kept the aspects KM gave to Dream Theater, but added some spice on the top.

Further:

I could not disagree more.  I lost count at how many times I've heard Rudess play a part from a KM-era DT song and thought, "Good grief, why did he ruin it by playing it like that?"  Sure, it might have been faster and/or more technical, but who cares?  Music is not a contest to see who can play the fastest.  And I say that, being someone who enjoys most of JR's work in the band (a good number of solos notwithstanding).  I just hate when he feels the need to "wank up" a KM keyboard part that was originally more about feel and emotion than speed and technique.

I would like an example.

Also, I like how you guys just abruptly disregarded the second part of my post You just kind of proved my point that you are hung up on the small things when it comes to comparing KM and JR, like how JR physically plays some songs live rather than other, more significant things he has provided, for example the things I listed, that proves that he's not all about technical skill, but adds things to DT that KM would never have been able to. For example, I doubt that KM possesses the level of musicianship required to write a thoroughly orchestraic piece like Overture.

In any case, I looked through some clips where JR plays KM keyboard parts, and he basically stays true to it, but he adds some extra to them sometimes. It's only proof of a good musician to take another musicians work, being able to reproduce it but also have the guts to add your own signature to it. I didn't hear anyone complain when they heard how MM had enhanced MPs drum parts... and it's exactly the same situation.

[Bill Carson]

With regards to JR doin KM's solo's, I'd say that's the issue....KM's solo's are so memorable that they become an important part of the song. So when JR changes them it is very noticeable.

[reo73]

Look, there is no right or wrong answer here.  JR and KM are very different players and we all have our preference.  KM is mine but I do appreciate a lot Rudess has contributed to the band, especially Octavarium.  On the other hand he does "wank" it up a lot which bothers me, like the piano break in OTBOA.

My main issue with the Rudess era, and this is more of a commentary on ToT onward, is that they wrote their riffs and instrumental sections more in the vein of LTE stuff than their previous non-Rudess era music which is what I fell in love with in the first place.

[nikatapi]

With regards to JR doin KM's solo's, I'd say that's the issue....KM's solo's are so memorable that they become an important part of the song. So when JR changes them it is very noticeable.

I couldn't agree more. Rudess is certainly an amazing player, but when he changes KM's solos i really dislike them (Take the time, Under a glass moon for example). Just wanky and ruining the song for me.
The irony is that during the drummer auditions he talked about some drummers changing song that people are used to listen to in a certain way, but he is the one changing some of the best keyboard solos into a blurried mix of notes.