The Shattered Fortress discussion thread

[Ben_Jamin]

I don't think its made to be climatic. Its about the 12 steps, not about MP's struggle through it. That's why it reprises TGP cause that's him lending his hand.

[BlackInk]

Would posting a youtube-video with a Shattered Fortress 8-string guitar remix be against the rules?

[Lucidity]

The Shattered Fortress is my favorite step of the suite and one of my favorite DT songs. It's extremely underappreciated. Jordan's solo is one of my favorites ever; every time I hear it coming I turn the volume way up and I have to headbang and play the air keyboard 

I think TSF is a great example of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. The others steps are alright (yes, the Glass Prison is just *alright*), but they are bogged down often because they have a few brilliant musical ideas that are then dragged out and then beaten to death. In TSF, the blows are fast and everything comes at you rapidly and cohesively, connecting all of the best parts of the previous steps. It's just such an awesome song. And I love that beginning riff.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

The Shattered Fortress is my favorite step of the suite and one of my favorite DT songs. It's extremely underappreciated. Jordan's solo is one of my favorites ever; every time I hear it coming I turn the volume way up and I have to headbang and play the air keyboard 

I think TSF is a great example of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. The others steps are alright (yes, the Glass Prison is just *alright*), but they are bogged down often because they have a few brilliant musical ideas that are then dragged out and then beaten to death. In TSF, the blows are fast and everything comes at you rapidly and cohesively, connecting all of the best parts of the previous steps. It's just such an awesome song. And I love that beginning riff.

I agree with some parts and disagree with others. While I find The Shattered Fortress to be a good song, it does feel a bit disjointed at times. I feel they were sometimes like..."omg we need to reprise this theme...and that one!! Oh, and that other one cool melody too!" the keyboard solo is indeed, amazing although I sometimes feel it's a little long. And now, the reason The Glass Prison is widely considered a better song is that it feels much more cohesive and packs far more punch. The structure of the song is more coherent than The Shattered Fortress, the ideas feel new and fresh while TSF feels like a big collage of recycled ideas. Don't take me wrong, I like Shattered a lot...and I think it does work pretty well as a closer to the AA songs, but it's in any way a rival to The Glass Prison as an individual composition.

[TheGreatPretender]

I don't think its made to be climatic. Its about the 12 steps, not about MP's struggle through it. That's why it reprises TGP cause that's him lending his hand.

I think the fact that it reprises TGP makes it even more climactic. It brings it full circle, and if you think about it in the grand scheme of it... I honestly can't think of a better way they could have ended it.

[Bolsters]

I agree with some parts and disagree with others. While I find The Shattered Fortress to be a good song, it does feel a bit disjointed at times. I feel they were sometimes like..."omg we need to reprise this theme...and that one!! Oh, and that other one cool melody too!" the keyboard solo is indeed, amazing although I sometimes feel it's a little long. And now, the reason The Glass Prison is widely considered a better song is that it feels much more cohesive and packs far more punch. The structure of the song is more coherent than The Shattered Fortress, the ideas feel new and fresh while TSF feels like a big collage of recycled ideas. Don't take me wrong, I like Shattered a lot...and I think it does work pretty well as a closer to the AA songs, but it's in any way a rival to The Glass Prison as an individual composition.

I agree with this. The song feels more like an amateur mash-up, where some guy just cut parts out of the other songs and put them together, not even taking care to make the sections fit at all. There are some absolutely horrific transitions in TSF. Not Dream Theater's signature "quick change-up" which usually works. And too much of it is straight copy/paste from other songs, instead of finding ways to reuse things, which makes the arrangement of the song seem incredibly lazy.

TSF has some good original riffs, and does contain some good riffs from previous 12-step songs, but I just can't bring myself to like it as a whole.

[BlackInk]

EDIT: Never mind.

[?]

I agree with Bolsters. TSF is like the medleys DT have played live: it combines some good sections from multiple songs, but I'd much rather listen to one of those songs in full instead of a mashup with weak transitions.

[TheGreatPretender]

I think TFS is like the opposite of Metropolis.
Whereas you have Metropolis, and then those ideas got heavily expanded on in SFAM, with the 12SS, you have these four songs, and then you take the best ideas from them and wrap them up into one sweet song that kind of embodies all of them.

As such, I don't see the point of saying, "I'd rather just listen to all those other songs," because to me, that would be like saying, "Why listen to Metropolis, when you can listen to Scenes From A Memory and just enjoy those recurring themes and ideas that they took from Metropolis?" It's a different song, that has some recurring themes, and I think it's extremely enjoyable because of that.

[?]

The difference is, Metropolis was first and it's a song that stands out on its own and includes a LOT of themes that aren't referenced in SFAM songs. TSF, on the other hand, is the final chapter of a suite and is for the most part based on riffs and melodies that were recycled from the previous 12SS songs. The problem is that it doesn't offer a lot of new stuff that would make it more than just a rehash. BC&SL was my first DT album, so I can't speak for myself, but I remember reading comments from people who were disappointed at the lack of original themes in TSF, and I understand their opinion, as I'd feel the same way if some song on the next DT albums was a 13-minute piece mostly based on stuff I've heard in older songs already.

[BlackInk]

Yeah the first time I heard it I was pretty disappointed by the lack of new stuff. All the other songs of the 12SS had brought a fair amount of cool original ideas with only a few moments reusing the themes from the previous ones. But The Shattered Fortress only has one about a minute long segment (that isn't even very good) of new stuff. That is not at all enough for a 13 minute long song.

[TheGreatPretender]

I love how it does reuse the same themes. And it doesn't just haphazardly rehash them. A lot of them are delivered in different ways. The recurring themes from Repentance and This Dying Soul are both delivered in pretty much completely different styles. One being much heavier and more energetic, the other being more melodic and mellow. And the main riff from The Root of All Evil and the intro to The Glass Prison are so iconic that hearing them again, pretty much as they were, was absolutely awesome. The Shattered Fortress is my favorite of the 12SS. It really sums the whole suite up and brings it full circle. Frankly, in terms of music and lyrics, it's the best track on the album.

[Lucidity]

I love how it does reuse the same themes. And it doesn't just haphazardly rehash them. A lot of them are delivered in different ways. The recurring themes from Repentance and This Dying Soul are both delivered in pretty much completely different styles. One being much heavier and more energetic, the other being more melodic and mellow. And the main riff from The Root of All Evil and the intro to The Glass Prison are so iconic that hearing them again, pretty much as they were, was absolutely awesome. The Shattered Fortress is my favorite of the 12SS. It really sums the whole suite up and brings it full circle. Frankly, in terms of music and lyrics, it's the best track on the album.

Everything this.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

As such, I don't see the point of saying, "I'd rather just listen to all those other songs," because to me, that would be like saying, "Why listen to Metropolis, when you can listen to Scenes From A Memory and just enjoy those recurring themes and ideas that they took from Metropolis?"

The difference for me is that the SFAM songs don't really sound like Metropolis or vice versa. There are occasional callbacks over the course of over an hour of music, but there isn't a single SFAM song that is more than 10-20% based on Metropolis. Likewise, Metropolis itself has plenty of elements that weren't really adopted into SFAM--the instrumental section that takes up around half the song, for one.

In contrast, TSF's content is probably closer to half borrowed from the earlier 12SS songs. Parts of it are cool, but I find the solos drag on a bit long for me. The transition into the Repentance section is very well-done, but the transition to the TROAE section doesn't work at all for me. And most of the rest of the song plods along, sounding pleasant but not fresh. I'm glad others like it, but while I don't really dislike it (there isn't really any DT music I flatout dislike), I also never find myself caring to hear it again.

[BlackInk]

The Shattered Fortress has 24.32% completely original ideas. Everything else is just stuff from before.

no you get a life..

[?]

*snip*

Agreed. TSF lacks freshness - if I had been in DT's place, I would've written something mostly new with just a couple of little references to the previous 12SS songs.

[MoraWintersoul]

A call-back to all the previous parts was somewhat necessary I guess - DT always does that sorta stuff - and I guess they wanted to put all the really good ones in there, so it outweighed the amount of original material. You also have to consider how fed up they must have been with doing the 12 step suite (and by they, I mostly mean MP, because he said that he should have predicted how long it would take him to finish the suite and just did all 12 steps in one song or something) by then.

If you think about it, considering the length, it's technically a concept album within five other Dream Theater albums, each part more or less consistent and purposeful to the sound and flow of each of the other albums. Given that, I can forgive them some missteps with it, such as TSF not containing much original material. Even though none of the suite songs besides TGP is a song I could say I *love* or listen to regularly (although that's partly due to me not listening to 8VM, SC or BCSL regularly), I like all of them.

[BlackInk]

This is The Shattered Fortress as it would sound of it was played on an 8-string.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlR1nK-8VBQ

I think the result sounds really heavy and cool.

[Onno]

This is The Shattered Fortress as it would sound of it was played on an 8-string.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlR1nK-8VBQ

I think the result sounds really heavy and cool.

I think it sounds like absolute garbage. But that's my opinion

[BlackInk]

Sounds pretty messy in the beginning but gets clearer later, I've replaced the regular version with this one on all my playlists. I think it came out awesome 

[DT05]

I think about this song quite a bit, and how it feels simultaneously satisfying to end the suite yet also a bit sad in thinking about how it's the only song that doesn't try to introduce as many new melodies and moments. Of course there's reprise to the previous songs in all entries, but this one feels majority reprise, where usually DT suites don't do this as much. Thinking about A Mind Beside Itself and how each song has its own atmosphere, then seeing how this one is like a buffet of the first four songs, I will say that I still wish this song was just a bit different. But, I like it.

[WilliamMunny]

Holy threadbumb, Batman!

You know, after all these years of living with these songs, my opinion has changed quite a bit.

I used to like them all in direct proportion to their release...TGP the most, TDS the second most, etc.

Now, if I were ranking them, it'd go like this:

1. "The Root of All Evil"

2. "This Dying Soul"

3. "The Shattered Fortress"

4. "The Glass Prison"

5. "Repentence"

[DT05]

Fascinating to see The Glass Prison so low but very happy to see some The Root of All Evil love. I remember a time when people said they didn't like that song as the opener for Octavarium, which is crazy to me, it's such a good way to start that record (also the only other time than TGP that a song from this suite is the opener of a whole album)

[WilliamMunny]

Fascinating to see The Glass Prison so low but very happy to see some The Root of All Evil love. I remember a time when people said they didn't like that song as the opener for Octavarium, which is crazy to me, it's such a good way to start that record (also the only other time than TGP that a song from this suite is the opener of a whole album)

I like all the songs, a lot, I just like some more than others

[Trav]

I would still rank them the say as I would have 15 years ago.

The Glass Prison
This Dying Soul
The Root of All Evil
The Shattered Fortress
Repentance

[crystalstars17]

I like The Root of All Evil.

The other four could fall into a black hole for all that I care. They do absolutely nothing for me.

[Ben_Jamin]

I think about this song quite a bit, and how it feels simultaneously satisfying to end the suite yet also a bit sad in thinking about how it's the only song that doesn't try to introduce as many new melodies and moments. Of course there's reprise to the previous songs in all entries, but this one feels majority reprise, where usually DT suites don't do this as much. Thinking about A Mind Beside Itself and how each song has its own atmosphere, then seeing how this one is like a buffet of the first four songs, I will say that I still wish this song was just a bit different. But, I like it.

I am one that sees the reprises as a part of the concept.

The Shattered Fortress is a summary of the end of AA. Where one reflects on how they have changed since beginning the path to sobriety and completing AA.

[Jamesman42]

TSF works great as a reprise-heavy song, and the "I am responsible" part adds the final awesome piece to complete it.

[DT05]

Yeah I see what you mean Ben, it's like an end-of-show overture reprise. I wonder if they will play it on any of the tour stops this world tour upcoming. Has that happened yet in DT history?

[Trav]

Are you asking if they've played it before? Yes, in 2014.

[Schurftkut]

Are you asking if they've played it before? Yes, in 2014.

i think he meant the whole 12-steps? I don't think DT did that, MP sure did yes

[DT05]

Yeah I should have worded that much better! The whole 12 steps as a single suite performance.

[macneil]

MP played the whole suite in it's entirety with Haken (+ Eric Gillette) in 2017, there are recordings on YouTube. DT never have, though maybe that might change one day now that he's back.

I used to think TSF was a bit reprise-heavy, but looking back I think it suits thematically. The first 2 tracks are still the best though (TGP, TDS) - the rest I could take or leave.

[Jamesman42]

Besides Repentance, which is just fine, the rest is stellar. TGP is a top 10 song and I might be one of the bigger fans of TSF here.

[DT05]

I'm really glad for Mike that he got to play it live with someone. It's kind of wild to think it's been played live but not by DT, very odd to hear Ross Jennings and Daniel Gildenlow be a part of it