Falling Into Infinity

[Ħ]

Hopefully, one day maybe for an anniversary or something, they relaunch the album in a special 2 cd version with all the material originally recorded, remastered & remixed the way the band originally wanted to. That would be epic.

Actually, with the DT empire stronger than ever, and with huge support from RR, I don't think this is impossible.

[bosk1]

Here's my take on the album:

First off, I don't think there is any widespread "hate" of the album.  A lot of fans may rank it lower than some other DT albums, but I think it is pretty widely appreciated by the fanbase.

Second, with regard to the label, IMO there were some really good decisions, and there were some really not-so-good decisions.  As a whole, it's a mixed bag.  And there is a lot of disagreement among the fanbase about which decisions fall into which category.  But at the end of the day, between the label release, the FII demos, and the Old Bridge show, we have every song that was recorded during those sessions and mostly have every finished arrangement of every song.  No point arguing over whether each and every decision the label made was the "right" one when we can listen to whichever version of whichever song form those sessions we want to listen to.

Lastly, just wanted to respond to this:

I think a lot of fans hate it because the band (especially MP) ragged on it for so long.

I actually don't think that's accurate.  There were definitely some who did that.  And if I remember correctly (although I may be confusing you with someone else), you came from MP.com, correct?  If so, you probably would have seen that over there more than here.  But in my experience, with regard to the fanbase as a whole, fans who panned the album simply because MP did are in the minority.  

Using myself as an example, it took me a long time to warm up to FII, and it had nothing to do with MP's thoughts on the album.  In fact, I had no idea MP had a lower opinion of it.  For whatever reason, I didn't buy the album right away and hadn't heard the entire thing until after SFAM was out.  Judging DT on the discography up to that point, although they definitely had some "softer" songs, they were primarily a progressive metal band in terms of sound and style.  FII sounded more progressive rock, and was very different in that regard.  The songs also had more of a mainstream vibe to them (even if they weren't completely mainstream songs).  There was just something that, to me (and to many others) sounded very different about the album.  That took a lot of getting used to.  I think a lot of other fans may have felt (and may still feel) that way.  But still, after getting used to it, I still rank it fairly low in the DT catalog.  It's definitely not a bad album.  I love it.  But I just find a lot of their other albums to be better.  

[Perpetual Change]

It also took me awhile to warm up to FII too. Not because it's bad, but because people's opinions on DT.com held me off from actually buying it until I had all the other ones.

[WildeSilas]

Here's my take on the album:

First off, I don't think there is any widespread "hate" of the album.  A lot of fans may rank it lower than some other DT albums, but I think it is pretty widely appreciated by the fanbase.

Second, with regard to the label, IMO there were some really good decisions, and there were some really not-so-good decisions.  As a whole, it's a mixed bag.  And there is a lot of disagreement among the fanbase about which decisions fall into which category.  But at the end of the day, between the label release, the FII demos, and the Old Bridge show, we have every song that was recorded during those sessions and mostly have every finished arrangement of every song.  No point arguing over whether each and every decision the label made was the "right" one when we can listen to whichever version of whichever song form those sessions we want to listen to.

Lastly, just wanted to respond to this:

I think a lot of fans hate it because the band (especially MP) ragged on it for so long.

I actually don't think that's accurate.  There were definitely some who did that.  And if I remember correctly (although I may be confusing you with someone else), you came from MP.com, correct?  

Actually, no - though I've lurked there some. I've been lurking here for about two years. I guess the only band member I've specifically heard pan FII is MP, while I got the impression that JP and JM were fine with it, and JLB was mostly just frustrated with his vocal problems following post-Awake food poisoning incident. The liner notes on the demos also indicate that Mike really disliked the official version of FII.

I have to admit that I didn't like it at first because it seemed overly keyboardish at the beginning, followed by YNM which was a bald-faced shot at mainstream radio. I didn't appreciate the album as a whole until I got into The Beatles and Yes, and accepted it as a prog-rock rather than prog-metal album (like you said) and recognized that they were drawing from a much wider range of influences. It wasn't really around ToT that I got online and started seeing retrospective comments from MP about it that made me consider the influence of the label, track arrangements, etc.

[Perpetual Change]

^^That

I remember actually, when I was getting into DT around 2002-4 (not really clear--- Budokan wasn't out but ToT was), one of the reasons I avoided it is exactly because Mike ragged on it too.

I totally get what WildeSilas is saying. ToT times was when I was getting into the band, and I only really remember two things about my participation in the DT community from that time. 2 albums constantly getting torn new assholes: FII and Train of Thought.

[bosk1]

...you came from MP.com, correct?  

Actually, no - though I've lurked there some. I've been lurking here for about two years. [/quote]

Oh, okay.  Sorry.  But there are a lot of new users here over the last few months, a lot of whom migrated over from MP.com.

[bosk1]

I remember actually, when I was getting into DT around 2002-4 (not really clear--- Budokan wasn't out but ToT was), one of the reasons I avoided it is exactly because Mike ragged on it too.

Hmm...well, you're not the first person in the thread to say that, so maybe I underestimated how many people may have fallen into that camp.  But while I may have been somewhat mistaken about that, I still don't think it is all that widespread. 

[iamtheeviltwin]

I picked up FII shortly after it was released.  At the time I was a bit disappointed with the album...I had been a huge fan of Awake and the harder sound of that album.  Also ACOS, a great lengthy epic.  Then came FII...it didn't really sound like the DT I had known and loved up to that point.  So FII got a few listens, but then sat on the shelf.  When SFAM came out I dusted it off and listened again.  I guess the passage of time, and the fact that SFAM had a different sound from my favorite DT (ragtime solo?), made me listen to FII with new ears.  Now it has some of my favorite singles when I just want to add some DT to my music mix.  The album shows far more of the DT "traditional" prog roots than many of their other albums and fits nicely alongside a Pink Floyd, Yes, Rush style mix.

[King Postwhore]

I think it falls in line with the people who love the older style prog rock like it, while the metal prog fans are not too keen on it or find it lukewarm.

Edit:  I also feel that's why some don't like Octavarium too.

[WildeSilas]

To be clear - I didn't intend to imply that MP goes on and on about it, or is disproportionately critical of FII. I totally understand his view, particularly when coupled with the political nonsense going on within the band, record company, and their management at the time. But his criticisms stand out more starkly because the other members have said so little, and very few artists would dare be so critical of their own product so soon after its release. That's probably why it sticks out in my memory so much.

[Ryzee]

Love FII, top 5 DT album for sure!  Regarding the two universally hated songs on the album, YNM is definitely one of DT's weaker tracks but I don't think it's as completely unlistenable as some make it out to be.  It's a whatever little rock tune, it's part of the album and I certainly don't skip it when listening to the album.  It is what it is.  BMS I like a little more, I dig the groove over the first verse and the keyboard solo is actually pretty freakin rockin if you ask me!  I consider it a part of the cycle that includes HK and LITS, and to me they kind of make up FII's version of A Mind Beside Itself.  So ya, YNM and BMS are weaker DT tracks for sure but not the utterly unlistenable garbage that some make them out to be.

[bosk1]

I will often skip YNM, but BMS definitely has some cool moments.  If not for the distorted mechanical voice and a couple of lyric choices, I think it would actually be a decent song.  I also tend to think it would have a lot of energy and go over well in a live setting, so I'm hoping they bring it out on tour in the not-too-distant future.

[Perpetual Change]

I think it falls in line with the people who love the older style prog rock like it, while the metal prog fans are not too keen on it or find it lukewarm.

Edit:  I also feel that's why some don't like Octavarium too.

I like prog way more than metal, but wouldn't rank either of those two albums that highly. Though, come to think of it, probably still higher than their more metal forward albums.

[Ryzee]

I will often skip YNM, but BMS definitely has some cool moments.  If not for the distorted mechanical voice and a couple of lyric choices, I think it would actually be a decent song.  I also tend to think it would have a lot of energy and go over well in a live setting, so I'm hoping they bring it out on tour in the not-too-distant future.

Yes!  I've always thought that too, I'd love to hear it live!

[Ħ]

I will often skip YNM, but BMS definitely has some cool moments.  If not for the distorted mechanical voice and a couple of lyric choices, I think it would actually be a decent song.  I also tend to think it would have a lot of energy and go over well in a live setting, so I'm hoping they bring it out on tour in the not-too-distant future.

Actually I would totally be excited for that!  I think it would be cool if they reworked it a bit, like they did with Hollow Years.  But it could be awesome.

[Ben_Jamin]

@Bosk: That's one reason I wanted Burning My Soul on the Maiden tour.

Also, This place is the only place where BMS is hated, everyone hear enjoys it more than HY, YNM, even PS.

[abydos]

One of their best albums. The weakest songs on it are at least as good as the best songs that came after ToT.

[mariocalin]

I Think it´s a very good album, but maybe the pressure of the company made it difficult and maybe worse than the album had been.

I love Trial of tears and Hell´s kitchen...And I also like You Not Me (please don´t hit me  )

[Cool Chris]

Some day people will accept the fact that lots of fans just dislike the album because, well, it just isn't very good, and stop blaming our dislike on MP's critique of it, the evildoers at the record label, Shirley, Desmond Child, etc....

One thing that always bugged me regarding the lack of DT font on the cover:  I guess the cover artist said he doesn't work with pre-existing fonts(?) That strikes me as really pretentious. The band has this font, that is part of their image. It isn't arbitrary. Don't be so high and mighty that you can't work it in to your cover art. You aren't Picasso.

[darkshade]

ToT times was when I was getting into the band, and I only really remember two things about my participation in the DT community from that time. 2 albums constantly getting torn new assholes: FII and Train of Thought.

Haha, I remember those days. ToT may have been the most controversial album they ever released. That's around the time I got into the band.

But anyway, I dont have much opinion on FII, except that when I eventually got it, I rarely listened to it. Only in the last few years have I come to appreciate it; but not before getting into basically everything else they've done.

When I listen to it, I listen to a playlist on my iPod that I made for the ultimate FII experience possible IMO

1. New Millennium
2. You Or Me
3. Peruvian Skies
4. Hollow Years
5. Hell's Kitchen
6. Lines In The Sand
7. Just Let Me Breath
8. Trial of Tears

9. Raise the Knife (Score version)

the rest I can do without, and didn't include anything from the FII demos because I like to keep the overall sound the same.

[WildeSilas]

Where's Anna Lee? WHERE'S ANNA LEE??!!!!! 

[legenden1]

I will never understand the hate against You not me. When the album first came out it was my favourite together with Peruvian Skies and Hollow years and all these years later not much have changed. Brilliant song

[DeanTheater]

I actually have followed DT since 92 with I&W release.  (I am an old bastard)  That being said, the problem I had with FII at the time, was that it followed AWAKE, which is like the koran for militant DT lovers.  I feel early DT fans tend to have a hard time with FII (opinion not fact).

The drastic change in the bands direction was difficult to swallow....at first. BUT,  I fell in love with half of the album and never stopped listening to it for months.  And HK and TOT are masterpieces and will always be part of DT lore.

It was just hard to adjust to at first.  Pour Moi.

[King Postwhore]

I actually have followed DT since 92 with I&W release.  (I am an old bastard)  That being said, the problem I had with FII at the time, was that it followed AWAKE, which is like the koran for militant DT lovers.  I feel early DT fans tend to have a hard time with FII (opinion not fact).

The drastic change in the bands direction was difficult to swallow....at first. BUT,  I fell in love with half of the album and never stopped listening to it for months.  And HK and TOT are masterpieces and will always be part of DT lore.

It was just hard to adjust to at first.  Pour Moi.

I think fans of I & W had a better time with FII then those who liked the direction of Awake.  I for one liked that the band was not pigeonholed.

[CrimsonSunrise]

Awesome album, one of the most "Listenable" for me, because of the production quality.  Some stellar songs like Lines, and Trial.  Lots of solid songs, and only 2 stinkers for me... Anna Lee and Burning my soul.  and for the record... You not me is a good tune, the lyrics remind me of my ex-wife...

[DeanTheater]

I actually have followed DT since 92 with I&W release.  (I am an old bastard)  That being said, the problem I had with FII at the time, was that it followed AWAKE, which is like the koran for militant DT lovers.  I feel early DT fans tend to have a hard time with FII (opinion not fact).

The drastic change in the bands direction was difficult to swallow....at first. BUT,  I fell in love with half of the album and never stopped listening to it for months.  And HK and TOT are masterpieces and will always be part of DT lore.

It was just hard to adjust to at first.  Pour Moi.

I think fans of I & W had a better time with FII then those who liked the direction of Awake.  I for one liked that the band was not pigeonholed.

Well, I dont fit in that category.  I loved the direction of Awake, but I&W,was still my all time favorite and FII was still hard to swallow, initially.  Also, the transition from I&W to AWAKE didnt pigeonhole DT at all. 2 totally different albums. I felt FII, with its poppy elements was the Album that came close to pigeonholing the band.  IMO

[King Postwhore]

People felt that after the fact.  I don't remember anybody thinking that the band was pigeonholes on FII until they read what the band said about the record company.

[jdprsaga]

Some day people will accept the fact that lots of fans just dislike the album because, well, it just isn't very good.

 

i'll fix it!  "Some day people will accept the fact that lots of fans just dislike the album because, well, it is just different."

and in my case.. i love it since the first listen to it.

[WildeSilas]

Since some people are admitting to liking YNM here, I'm gonna go ahead and come out of the closet. I *prefer* the album version to the demo version. The chorus is catchier and just works better IMO. Also I don't think the tempo serves the demo version very well.

There. I said it.

[skydivingninja]

I like or love every song on the album except for YNM and BMS (two of my least favorite DT songs).  If those two songs were replaced with Speak to Me, it would be one of my top DT albums.  But yeah, it gets more flak than it deserves, though I do understand the old fans were disappointed with it.  I probably would have been as well. 

[SjundeInseglet]

As far as I can recall there was a widespread dislike of FII when it came out back in 1997-1998. I was one of its most adamant supporters (I was a fairly recent fan back then as I had only gotten into DT in 1996) but I remember seeing it being panned left and right over at places like alt.music.dream-theater. People felt it paled in comparison to DT's previous work. Strangely enough, Sherinian's work on the album caught a lot of flack too (some people thought he had nothing on Kevin Moore technique-wise). I never did relate to that. To this day FII is still one of my favorite DT albums and I always liked what Derek did with DT.

[Bertielee]

I bought FII on release, but, honestly, the first time I heard it, my first intention was to bring it back to the store. It was so different, it was not the DT I loved. And then, I saw DT for the first time on the FII tour. It was in Toulouse back in 1998. And  it clicked! Now, I love that album and rank it much higher than the last 3 releases, albeit not as high as the others.

B.Lee

[skydivingninja]

Derek was a great keyboardist for DT.  He wasn't Kevin Moore, but it was good that he wasn't trying to be.

[Infinite Cactus]

I love this album. Top 4 for me. I do have to admit that I listen to the 2 disc version I made more often which easily pushes this into the Top 3. Lines in The Sand and Trial of Tears make my top 5 songs. I love Derek's playing on this album.

[Lowdz]

I like the variety in styles and sounds on FII. Different textures everywhere. I don't hate YNM but I quite like Desmond Child so I'm not predisposed to disliking it. I do hate that the record company made them do that and I don't hear a great difference between the two version so I hope they didn't pay him much. The version on FII feels tighter.
I'm not a big fan of JLMB or BMS but they're still ok.