A thought about JM lyrics....

[ariich]

But why should they have to do that, rather than JM do it himself?

Because otherwise their lyrics look like they do in BCSL, SC, and other songs like Never Enough do. That's not really bad, but it's nowhere near the level of LTL, LSOAD, TOT and maybe even FT.

*In my opinion.

That doesn't have anything to do with my question.

I have some answer to that but it's kinda hard to explain. Either way, my underline is I'd rather have Myung lyrics. I also can't tell you an objective reason of why he shouldn't just fit the lyrics to the melody himself, so if you're looking for an objective answer then I don't really have one.

My best argument is, at least in my opinion (and I believe most people think so, but go figure), they wrote better lyrics before making that rule and that's why I don't want them to continue following it. Maybe it's just because Myung doesn't write lyrics, maybe it's because of the rule, maybe it's just they didn't have an inspiration or something. But it really seems to me like they wrote better lyrics from SFAM and earlier.

Maybe you like the lyrics less because JM hasn't been writing anyway, but blaming the rule is ridiculous. The rule essentially says "if you're not going to put the effort in to turn this poetry into lyrics, then we're not going to do it for you".

[IdoSC]

But why should they have to do that, rather than JM do it himself?

Because otherwise their lyrics look like they do in BCSL, SC, and other songs like Never Enough do. That's not really bad, but it's nowhere near the level of LTL, LSOAD, TOT and maybe even FT.

*In my opinion.

That doesn't have anything to do with my question.

I have some answer to that but it's kinda hard to explain. Either way, my underline is I'd rather have Myung lyrics. I also can't tell you an objective reason of why he shouldn't just fit the lyrics to the melody himself, so if you're looking for an objective answer then I don't really have one.

My best argument is, at least in my opinion (and I believe most people think so, but go figure), they wrote better lyrics before making that rule and that's why I don't want them to continue following it. Maybe it's just because Myung doesn't write lyrics, maybe it's because of the rule, maybe it's just they didn't have an inspiration or something. But it really seems to me like they wrote better lyrics from SFAM and earlier.

Maybe you like the lyrics less because JM hasn't been writing anyway, but blaming the rule is ridiculous. The rule essentially says "if you're not going to put the effort in to turn this poetry into lyrics, then we're not going to do it for you".

I also like JP's lyrics pre-SDOIT better, don't know if it has anything to do with it. MP's lyrics, they were mostly great most of the time.

[userx]

To confuse you further (haha): The "pocket" is also a term used to describe how "groovy" a drummer and bass player play (it can be applied to any instrument actually). The term originated around the time of Gene Krupa, during the big band era. If you're counting beats in a measure, the snare typically plays on the 2 and 4 (assuming we're talking about 4/4 time signature). A drummer who plays "in the pocket" will typically lag just a micro-heartbeat behind the 2 and 4, rather than playing exactly on the beat, like a drum machine would. You can hear great examples of this type of playing in most Krupa recordings, and some of Buddy's Rich's big band stuff. Modern examples would be Bootsy Collins (the bass player for P-Funk, Parliament), and Stevie Wonder (particularly the drums and synclavier tracks on songs like Superstitious, Living For the City, or other "funk" numbers). Both Jon Bonham and more recently Jerry Gaskill are revered among drummers for their ability to play "deep in the pocket," which nearly forces the other instrumentalists to play with a more funky, groovy feel (check out "Groove Machine" by King's X).

To tie this into the DT situation: Many prog and technically oriented drummers play very precisely while ignoring this aspect of groove. Mike Portnoy and Neil Peart are two drummers in this genre that notoriously have not ignored it, and are proficient at playing very complex times and patterns while staying "deep in the pocket"). Probably the easiest to hear example of this is the drum intro on DT's 6:00, and on Rush's "Animate" from the Counterparts album. It is a subtle nuance, but if you've ever played bass with a variety of drummers, you realize how important it is for drummers to play in the pocket. Compare DT's "groove" with similar bands like Circus Maximus or Symphony X and you (or at least I) notice an immediate difference in the amount of groove, and IMO this is directly related to the rhythm section of DT consistently playing in the pocket.

Which is also IMO why Mike Mangini or Marco were the only logical replacements for MP in DT. Both have long histories of playing progressive music while maintaining the pocket. All apologies to fans of the other guys, but IMO Donati is the only other drummer (besides those 2) among the 7 that even comes close to MP's ability to play extremely complicated time changes while staying firmly in the pocket. Mangini especially demonstrates this on his work with Vai, but even more so on his tracks from Extreme's "Waiting For the Punchline" (there's an example of a guitar player who plays "deep in the pocket." Eddie Van Halen would be another).

Now you know more than you ever wanted to about the pocket. But it's a particularly relevant discussion related to replacing MP in a band like DT. I think it's one of the primary things that have set them apart from the rest of the prog-metal/rock bands around today. The reason that JMX would particularly be concerned about potential drummers being able to play in the pocket is because that issue would affect his playing more than anyone else (though Petrucci can nail the pocket when it's called for as well).

1. I'm not that easily confused (unless smn is being confusing)
2. I'm majoring in English so I shouldn't get confused easily:) (however, I've never heard about "the pocket" in this sense until now so I was just curious as to what it refers to
3. Thank you for an extremely elaborate explanation
4. I'd like just to check if I got things right:
- so, the pocket basically refers to playing a pattern that is slightly irregular with respect to expected/usual/normal beats but still staying in whichever meter is being played? More specifically, it doesn't refer to odd time signatures but to an another level of "oddness". In other words, playing in the pocket is doing irregular beats in 4/4 but also playing irregular beats even for an odd time signature like 5/8. Conclusively, playing in the pocket means irregular beats regardless of the time signature.

If this is so, I don't see this happening in all DT's songs all the time, meaning, MP doesn't always play "in the pocket". Am I right or am I right? And this would mean that JM was referring to a broader aspect of playing "in the pocket" (the one happening all the time) which again escapes me


I hope I got it right and I'm sorry for such an extensive off topic. (still, I don't think it deserves its own thread)

[Adami]

But why should they have to do that, rather than JM do it himself?

Because otherwise their lyrics look like they do in BCSL, SC, and other songs like Never Enough do. That's not really bad, but it's nowhere near the level of LTL, LSOAD, TOT and maybe even FT.

*In my opinion.

That doesn't have anything to do with my question.

I have some answer to that but it's kinda hard to explain. Either way, my underline is I'd rather have Myung lyrics. I also can't tell you an objective reason of why he shouldn't just fit the lyrics to the melody himself, so if you're looking for an objective answer then I don't really have one.

My best argument is, at least in my opinion (and I believe most people think so, but go figure), they wrote better lyrics before making that rule and that's why I don't want them to continue following it. Maybe it's just because Myung doesn't write lyrics, maybe it's because of the rule, maybe it's just they didn't have an inspiration or something. But it really seems to me like they wrote better lyrics from SFAM and earlier.

Maybe you like the lyrics less because JM hasn't been writing anyway, but blaming the rule is ridiculous. The rule essentially says "if you're not going to put the effort in to turn this poetry into lyrics, then we're not going to do it for you".

I could have sworn the rule said that aside from being properly formatted, the writer had to demo himself singing the song (hence why we have JPs Wither and MPs TBOT). I can see why JM wouldn't want to demo himself singing the songs.

Also, I think the fact that he is now, all of the sudden writing lyrics, might mean that the rule has been overturned.

[ariich]

I could have sworn the rule said that aside from being properly formatted, the writer had to demo himself singing the song (hence why we have JPs Wither and MPs TBOT). I can see why JM wouldn't want to demo himself singing the songs.

I have never heard of that being the case.

Also, I think the fact that he is now, all of the sudden writing lyrics, might mean that the rule has been overturned.

Except that he was already talking about writing lyrics again way before MP left. True, the rule may still have been overturned and JP may be fitting JM's words into lyrical format, but from what JM said in that interview a year or so ago, it sounds like it was HE who was now willing to do that himself, and so the rule becomes irrelevant anyway, whether it is enforced or not.

[scorpa65]

He will be doing a song or two. From what i read recently it seems he has done just that. I loved his Trial Of Tears. Great song. 

[The Silent Cody]

completely off topic but I'd like an answer nonetheless.

Since I'm not a native speaker can someone tell me what does pocket refer to in JM's phrase from the documentary that "drummer is all when it comes to the pocket and the power"?

To confuse you further (haha): The "pocket" is also a term used to describe how "groovy" a drummer and bass player play (it can be applied to any instrument actually). The term originated around the time of Gene Krupa, during the big band era. If you're counting beats in a measure, the snare typically plays on the 2 and 4 (assuming we're talking about 4/4 time signature). A drummer who plays "in the pocket" will typically lag just a micro-heartbeat behind the 2 and 4, rather than playing exactly on the beat, like a drum machine would. You can hear great examples of this type of playing in most Krupa recordings, and some of Buddy's Rich's big band stuff. Modern examples would be Bootsy Collins (the bass player for P-Funk, Parliament), and Stevie Wonder (particularly the drums and synclavier tracks on songs like Superstitious, Living For the City, or other "funk" numbers). Both Jon Bonham and more recently Jerry Gaskill are revered among drummers for their ability to play "deep in the pocket," which nearly forces the other instrumentalists to play with a more funky, groovy feel (check out "Groove Machine" by King's X).

To tie this into the DT situation: Many prog and technically oriented drummers play very precisely while ignoring this aspect of groove. Mike Portnoy and Neil Peart are two drummers in this genre that notoriously have not ignored it, and are proficient at playing very complex times and patterns while staying "deep in the pocket"). Probably the easiest to hear example of this is the drum intro on DT's 6:00, and on Rush's "Animate" from the Counterparts album. It is a subtle nuance, but if you've ever played bass with a variety of drummers, you realize how important it is for drummers to play in the pocket. Compare DT's "groove" with similar bands like Circus Maximus or Symphony X and you (or at least I) notice an immediate difference in the amount of groove, and IMO this is directly related to the rhythm section of DT consistently playing in the pocket.

Which is also IMO why Mike Mangini or Marco were the only logical replacements for MP in DT. Both have long histories of playing progressive music while maintaining the pocket. All apologies to fans of the other guys, but IMO Donati is the only other drummer (besides those 2) among the 7 that even comes close to MP's ability to play extremely complicated time changes while staying firmly in the pocket. Mangini especially demonstrates this on his work with Vai, but even more so on his tracks from Extreme's "Waiting For the Punchline" (there's an example of a guitar player who plays "deep in the pocket." Eddie Van Halen would be another).

Now you know more than you ever wanted to about the pocket. But it's a particularly relevant discussion related to replacing MP in a band like DT. I think it's one of the primary things that have set them apart from the rest of the prog-metal/rock bands around today. The reason that JMX would particularly be concerned about potential drummers being able to play in the pocket is because that issue would affect his playing more than anyone else (though Petrucci can nail the pocket when it's called for as well).

This is what I call an explanation
Thank you 

[orcus116]

Except that he was already talking about writing lyrics again way before MP left. True, the rule may still have been overturned and JP may be fitting JM's words into lyrical format, but from what JM said in that interview a year or so ago, it sounds like it was HE who was now willing to do that himself, and so the rule becomes irrelevant anyway, whether it is enforced or not.

Or his response could've been one of those "yeah it might happen in the future" generic responses someone gives whenever they wanna skirt around a topic. Since there's no definitive answer from that I can see why you keep using this to confirm that the rule wasn't hindering anything.

[Adami]

Can anyone else back me up on the whole "the rule says that they have to demo the songs" thing?

[champbassist]

He didn't limit JM's writing. JM's writing was not in a format that can be put into a song, and MP (and possibly others, nobody knows) was/were unwilling to play around with them to fit them into the music.

I agree with this (the fact that it was probably difficult putting JM's writing to music), but I'm not entirely convinced JM could have gone ahead and placed a 'poem' before the other guys without any musical structure, essentially saying 'Hey guys! Let's write music for this.' It's somewhat impractical to expect your band mates to write music from scratch over your lyrics and I can't imagine Myung behaving in such a manner.

[inoku]

Can anyone else back me up on the whole "the rule says that they have to demo the songs" thing?

by demo you meant that they have to come up with the vocal melodies?

[kaelvin]

A little googling about 'playing in the pocket' gives me this
https://learnbass.net/2008/11/what-does-playing-in-the-pocket-mean/

which is slightly broader than WildeSilas's explanation:

Whether you are playing ahead (front) of the beat, or behind (back) of the beat, or right on top (middle) of the beat, as long as two musicians (ie. bassist and drummer) feel the downbeat at the same time, they'll be in the pocket.

[The Silent Cody]

A little googling about 'playing in the pocket' gives me this
https://learnbass.net/2008/11/what-does-playing-in-the-pocket-mean/

[ariich]

Except that he was already talking about writing lyrics again way before MP left. True, the rule may still have been overturned and JP may be fitting JM's words into lyrical format, but from what JM said in that interview a year or so ago, it sounds like it was HE who was now willing to do that himself, and so the rule becomes irrelevant anyway, whether it is enforced or not.

Or his response could've been one of those "yeah it might happen in the future" generic responses someone gives whenever they wanna skirt around a topic. Since there's no definitive answer from that I can see why you keep using this to confirm that the rule wasn't hindering anything.

Except that it wasn't, because it specifically mentioned writing lyrics again after a long time not doing it. Can't remember the exact wording but I know that pretty much all of us interpreted it as there being JM lyrics within the next album or two.

But that's still besides the point. The rule is there because at least MP and possibly the others didn't want to do JM's work for him. I don't know why that's so hard to understand or accept.

[SnakeEyes]

When you're in a band and you're writing songs, there is none of this: "that's YOUR job, this is MY job" (aside from actually playing your instrument, obviously).  Being in a band isn't like working at Target or a grocery store, where you [most likely] aren't intrinsically motivated to perform a task.  Instead, it's extremely common (and totally acceptable) for a musician to say to other musicians, "Hey I have this poem (or, riff or lick or chord progression or drum beat or whatever) ..... does anyone have any ideas for what we can DO with it?"  So, no, there are no "jobs" when it comes to being in a band.  I think, judging from working in my own band that plays mostly original music, that such a mindset would be EXTREMELY inhibiting to being creative.  

[jamhet]

JM's lyrics on DT11:

I can't control my shakes, how the hell did I get here?
Something about this, so very wrong
I have to laugh out loud, I wish I didn't like this
Is it a dream or a memory?

I felt the hate rise up in me
Kneel down and clear the stone of leaves
I wander around where you can't see
Inside my shell, I wait and bleed

[ariich]

When you're in a band and you're writing songs, there is none of this: "that's YOUR job, this is MY job" (aside from actually playing your instrument, obviously).  Being in a band isn't like working at Target or a grocery store, where you [most likely] aren't intrinsically motivated to perform a task.  Instead, it's extremely common (and totally acceptable) for a musician to say to other musicians, "Hey I have this poem (or, riff or lick or chord progression or drum beat or whatever) ..... does anyone have any ideas for what we can DO with it?"  So, no, there are no "jobs" when it comes to being in a band.  I think, judging from working in my own band that plays mostly original music, that such a mindset would be EXTREMELY inhibiting to being creative. 

You still don't get it though. I'm not talking about different people having different jobs, I'm talking about JM not being willing to turn his poetry into lyrics, so there's no reason why the others should have to do that for him. You can call it a "rule" if you like, but fundamentally it's not a rule so much as a "we're not going to do that for you, do it yourself if you want to write lyrics".

[SnakeEyes]

um

edit....

(sorry, that was to the lyrics post, not you ariich)

[ariich]

um

edit....

(sorry, that was to the lyrics post, not you ariich)

Yeah that lyrics post is a bit... weird

[SnakeEyes]

You still don't get it though. I'm not talking about different people having different jobs, I'm talking about JM not being willing to turn his poetry into lyrics, so there's no reason why the others should have to do that for him. You can call it a "rule" if you like, but fundamentally it's not a rule so much as a "we're not going to do that for you, do it yourself if you want to write lyrics".

No, I get it perfectly fine.  First of all, who says JM isn't "willing" to turn his poetry into lyrics?  Maybe he's just not good at it.  Maybe his strength is stringing phrases and thoughts together that are symbolic and philosophical ..... or whatever..... but, his strength is NOT putting those thoughts into a song format.  Secondly, why is it about whether the other guys, "should have to" do something?  The part that you're missing, in my opinion, is that they're all part of the same band.  If helping someone to turn their idea into a song - whether it be poetry or something else - is for the greater good of the band and will BENEFIT the band (i.e. a potentially awesome new song), then, in my opinion, your argument shouldn't exist.  

[ariich]

But who is to say that it's for the greater good of the band? A few cynical fans?

I'm sure the vast, vast majority of lyricists would prefer to write something of their own than adapt someone else's creative work. Admittedly JP does that a lot anyway with his lyrics, so probably could have worked with JM, and indeed could have done so even under this rule, but as for the others, they write about things that are important to them. Adapting someone else's lyrics is awkward and uncomfortable, while writing about something that matters to you is creatively rewarding.

[SnakeEyes]

But who is to say that it's for the greater good of the band? A few cynical fans?

Well, I certainly wouldn't consider myself a "cynical fan."  To answer your question, though, I think it's pretty obvious that, when the band worked on JM ideas, they became awesome songs.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't "Learning to Live" become one of the DT classics? 

Adapting someone else's lyrics is awkward and uncomfortable....

Maybe to you it is, which is fine.  Maybe that's not one of your strengths.  But, there's a word for this: it's called arranging.  It's NO different than if JM brought in a riff or a chord progression and asked the other guys to jam on it and help develop it into a song.  That's what musicians do when they create music together. 

....while writing about something that matters to you is creatively rewarding.

Of course.  But, how do you know that what JM writes about isn't something that matters to at least one of the other guys?  For example: Lifting Shadows off a Dream.  The other guys seem to be very close to their wives - you don't think that "the spiritual connection between a man and a woman" matters to the other guys?   

[ariich]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't "Learning to Live" become one of the DT classics? 

Indeed, but so is The Count of Tuscany. I don't think the lyrics are the be all and end all.

Maybe to you it is, which is fine.  Maybe that's not one of your strengths.  But, there's a word for this: it's called arranging.  It's NO different than if JM brought in a riff or a chord progression and asked the other guys to jam on it and help develop it into a song.  That's what musicians do when they create music together. 

Absolutely, and like I said JP does that sort of thing a lot anyway and so could easily have worked with JM on this, but presumably didn't bother for whatever reason. This "rule" would not have stopped him doing that. MP is clearly not a fan of doing it and I get the impression JLB wouldn't be comfortable with it either. All the "rule" apparently says is that when the lyrics are presented they have to be in lyrical format with accompanying melodies - in no way does this stop two people working together on them. I absolutely agree with you that they could have collaborated more, regardless of this rule, but they didn't, and blaming MP for that is preposterous.

.Of course.  But, how do you know that what JM writes about isn't something that matters to at least one of the other guys?  For example: Lifting Shadows off a Dream.  The other guys seem to be very close to their wives - you don't think that "the spiritual connection between a man and a woman" matters to the other guys?   

It's really not the same as writing your own lyrics, I can assure you.

[SnakeEyes]

Fair enough. 

[FretMuppet]

Indeed, but so is The Count of Tuscany. I don't think the lyrics are the be all and end all.

I don't even see how lyrics could ruin and repress such a fantastic masterpiece (TCOT), I mean, the lyrics aren't even as bad as everyone makes them out to be...
Just 'cause they're quite literal and funky (probably not the right word to describe them) doesn't mean they're not effective. I quite enjoyed them when I first heard the song, and its wasn't until I read other people's comments about it that I realised how unpopular they are  

DT make some good lyrics imo, regardless of who writes them

[Ben_Jamin]

@Fretmuppet: Its most likely the word choice and the way they're sung.

[Infinite Cactus]

On the subject of JM not submitting lyrics in lyric format, my drummer flat out can not sing at all. But he does have a pretty good talent for writing. He usually presents the words to me(when he writes,) and I craft the melodies to the song. Sometimes I'll ask "Do you mind if I move this here or there" but it is by no means any extra burden on me(I'm saying this as lead guitarists, vocalist, and keyboardist). I get that not everyone works that way, but I do agree with the consensus that it was kind of a needless rule. If somethings good it's worth working for. John Myung maybe can't sing and craft melodies. But to say it must be brought in complete is lols/the opposite of how they write everything else anyway. Let JLB do it. It just seems asinine but that again I don't really know first hand how it was.

-speculation/rambling done.

[Ben_Jamin]

Yeah, Which is what I said about it back then. JLB could have came up with his own melodies, working with myung on things. But for how fast they worked in the studio, it was not possible.

[ariich]

Yeah, Which is what I said about it back then. JLB could have came up with his own melodies, working with myung on things. But for how fast they worked in the studio, it was not possible.

I don't see why not. BC&SL was written prior to recording. Plus, even when it was all done at once, if JM already had some stuff written then he could have worked with one of the others before presenting them as lyrics.

I'm not saying that it's not possible that he wasn't put off by the rule or general attitude, but in no way should it have actually stopped him. Unfortunately a lot of people feel they need someone to blame, and MP is the easy target.

[Ben_Jamin]

I'm not hatin' on the playa, I'm hatin' on the game.

Yeah, he probably didn't feel like doing that. Now, they probably asked him if he had something or presented something.

[orcus116]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't "Learning to Live" become one of the DT classics? 

Indeed, but so is The Count of Tuscany.

Yeah, by default as the favorite off Black Clouds. It's not great, just "well, it's better than anything off Systematic Chaos". That being said it has some moments of absolute greatness (intro, E-bow solo) but I dunno if there's enough consistency to really call it a classic. If anything its legacy lays in how absurd it is.

[ariich]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't "Learning to Live" become one of the DT classics? 

Indeed, but so is The Count of Tuscany.

Yeah, by default as the favorite off Black Clouds. It's not great, just "well, it's better than anything off Systematic Chaos". That being said it has some moments of absolute greatness (intro, E-bow solo) but I dunno if there's enough consistency to really call it a classic. If anything its legacy lays in how absurd it is.

Based on how many people express their love for it, and how highly it has been rated in my DTF ratings project, I would say that it's a bonafide classic now.

[slycordinator]

But that's still besides the point. The rule is there because at least MP and possibly the others didn't want to do JM's work for him. I don't know why that's so hard to understand or accept.

And the rule shouldn't be there because it limits the overall creativity of the band plus there's the possibility of the process leading to a better composition than would've been created otherwise.

Also, just because I want the rule gone doesn't mean I can't grasp/accept the reasons why it was put into place to begin with...

[orcus116]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't "Learning to Live" become one of the DT classics? 

Indeed, but so is The Count of Tuscany.

Yeah, by default as the favorite off Black Clouds. It's not great, just "well, it's better than anything off Systematic Chaos". That being said it has some moments of absolute greatness (intro, E-bow solo) but I dunno if there's enough consistency to really call it a classic. If anything its legacy lays in how absurd it is.

Based on how many people express their love for it, and how highly it has been rated in my DTF ratings project, I would say that it's a bonafide classic now.

Well I can't really deny the love for it, I just don't get it. I still wonder how well it would've been received if not for the pre-release mystique. I've never seen that much buzz over a song just over how goofy its title was.

[ariich]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't "Learning to Live" become one of the DT classics? 

Indeed, but so is The Count of Tuscany.

Yeah, by default as the favorite off Black Clouds. It's not great, just "well, it's better than anything off Systematic Chaos". That being said it has some moments of absolute greatness (intro, E-bow solo) but I dunno if there's enough consistency to really call it a classic. If anything its legacy lays in how absurd it is.

Based on how many people express their love for it, and how highly it has been rated in my DTF ratings project, I would say that it's a bonafide classic now.

Well I can't really deny the love for it, I just don't get it. I still wonder how well it would've been received if not for the pre-release mystique. I've never seen that much buzz over a song just over how goofy its title was.

Definitely agree about the pre-release buzz, but I think people just genuinely love the song. There's nothing wrong with not getting the hype over something; I don't understand why there is so much fuss around Scarred, but whatever. People like what they like.