A thought about JM lyrics....

[SnakeEyes]

I was just thinking about how long it's been since JM has had lyrics on a DT album.  Then, I got to thinking about how he probably HAS written lyrics, but just not presented them to the band.  He might even have a ton of great lyrics that he has been tweaking for the past ten years or so.  If so, I would imagine they're probably incredible.....

[JayOctavarium]

all the finest wines improve with age

[reneranucci]

I don't imagine him writting lyrics just for the sake of it.

[JayOctavarium]

I don't imagine him writting lyrics just for the sake of it.

why wouldnt he? Didn't most of his lyrics start off as poems that had to be worked into songs? I don't know about JMX... but I dont write on demand.. lol

[monk]

I don't imagine him writting lyrics just for the sake of it.

Why not? Lyrics without a melody are more or less poetry and poetry is still an art form and considering the style of JM's lyrics they mainly are more consistent with poetic ballads/epics rather than just normal verse-chrous-verse structure

[SnakeEyes]

As far as I know, a lot of JM's lyrics began as poetry that became songs.  I think that's why he hasn't had a song in a while, because they had insisted on that dumb "completed song" rule.  Portnoy said that no one in the band could just present poems or whatever and expect the other guys to turn it into a song. 

[SystematicThought]

As far as I know, a lot of JM's lyrics began as poetry that became songs.  I think that's why he hasn't had a song in a while, because they had insisted on that dumb "completed song" rule.  Portnoy said that no one in the band could just present poems or whatever and expect the other guys to turn it into a song. 

Nowadays, I bet he'd deny he ever said that, but it was a dumb rule. I don't mean to be rude or anything by saying that. I don't get why the band couldn't just work with the lyrics and kind of work them out to fit

[SnakeEyes]

My guess is that it was a Portnoy-led rule.....

[tri.ad]

Well, he definitely was the most vocal about it. I'm not sure if JP or JLB ever said something about it in public.

[userx]

completely off topic but I'd like an answer nonetheless.

Since I'm not a native speaker can someone tell me what does pocket refer to in JM's phrase from the documentary that "drummer is all when it comes to the pocket and the power"?

[Lowdz]

As far as I know, a lot of JM's lyrics began as poetry that became songs.  I think that's why he hasn't had a song in a while, because they had insisted on that dumb "completed song" rule.  Portnoy said that no one in the band could just present poems or whatever and expect the other guys to turn it into a song. 

Nowadays, I bet he'd deny he ever said that, but it was a dumb rule. I don't mean to be rude or anything by saying that. I don't get why the band couldn't just work with the lyrics and kind of work them out to fit

Good job Rush didn't have the same rule...
I also don't see the problem in working on JMX's lyrics, it's not like the lyric's they've been using are so great they don't need some help in that department. It's harder to start with a blank page than to tweak something already half-formed.
Let it out, let it out
Feel the empty Space
So insecure find the words and let it out

Staring down, staring down
Nothing comes to mind
Find the place turn the water into wine

But I feel I'm getting nowhere
And I'll never see the end

[PowerSlave]

completely off topic but I'd like an answer nonetheless.

Since I'm not a native speaker can someone tell me what does pocket refer to in JM's phrase from the documentary that "drummer is all when it comes to the pocket and the power"?

Hopefully I don't confuse you further with my explanation.

I think he's refering to the over all feel of the music and how it comes across to the listener. If the rythm section (drummer and bass player) aren't playing well together then the over all sound and feel to the music suffers. In simpler terms, a drummer can make the music exciting and fun to listen to (Rush) or they can bore the hell out of you (AC/DC) lol...

[hefdaddy42]

completely off topic but I'd like an answer nonetheless.

Since I'm not a native speaker can someone tell me what does pocket refer to in JM's phrase from the documentary that "drummer is all when it comes to the pocket and the power"?

"In the pocket" refers to how musicians (especially the bassist and drummer, but I've used it for other musicians as well) play together in such a way that there is a solid groove and a great feel, no one gets in anyone else's way, and there is room for everyone to play without being busy-sounding.

[VioletS16]

Honestly....FT's lyrics weren't that great.
There, I said it. They just didn't do anything for me. LtL really moved me, the lyrics were incredible, but FT is dissapointing. I hope that if he writes for the next album, they will be LtL quality.

MP's rule about songwriting is stupid...I have high respect for him as a drummer and as a person and great amazement that he "led" the band for so many years without a lot of help but I mean come on, is it so hard to have everyone sit down and say, "OK lets see what we can do to make these lyrics great"? I mean, I'm sure JMX has been wanting to write some lyrics, but I think that he knows they'll need tweaking and didn't want MP to get all riled...this isn't meant to offend anyone BTW, I'm just saying that I just think, "Hey, guys, you are not on a timer, if you need to take an extra 15 minutes out of your lives to help a band member fix some lyrics and change some things, by all means, do it! The fans will like it a lot more because then they have some great lyrics to listen to!"

[ariich]

Honestly....FT's lyrics weren't that great.
There, I said it. They just didn't do anything for me. LtL really moved me, the lyrics were incredible, but FT is dissapointing. I hope that if he writes for the next album, they will be LtL quality.

MP's rule about songwriting is stupid...I have high respect for him as a drummer and as a person and great amazement that he "led" the band for so many years without a lot of help but I mean come on, is it so hard to have everyone sit down and say, "OK lets see what we can do to make these lyrics great"? I mean, I'm sure JMX has been wanting to write some lyrics, but I think that he knows they'll need tweaking and didn't want MP to get all riled...this isn't meant to offend anyone BTW, I'm just saying that I just think, "Hey, guys, you are not on a timer, if you need to take an extra 15 minutes out of your lives to help a band member fix some lyrics and change some things, by all means, do it! The fans will like it a lot more because then they have some great lyrics to listen to!"

But why should they have to do that, rather than JM do it himself?

[tjanuranus]

ugh Portnoy...

[ariich]

ugh Portnoy...

Cut that crap out now.

[Zydar]

Regarding the Fatal Tragedy lyrics, I think it could be because he had to write them to fit the storyline of SFAM. If he was given "free reigns" to write about whatever he wants (LtL, ToT, LSOAD) perhaps they would've been better? I don't know, that's my theory.

That said, I personally have no problems with the FT lyrics.

[IdoSC]

Honestly....FT's lyrics weren't that great.
There, I said it. They just didn't do anything for me. LtL really moved me, the lyrics were incredible, but FT is dissapointing. I hope that if he writes for the next album, they will be LtL quality.

MP's rule about songwriting is stupid...I have high respect for him as a drummer and as a person and great amazement that he "led" the band for so many years without a lot of help but I mean come on, is it so hard to have everyone sit down and say, "OK lets see what we can do to make these lyrics great"? I mean, I'm sure JMX has been wanting to write some lyrics, but I think that he knows they'll need tweaking and didn't want MP to get all riled...this isn't meant to offend anyone BTW, I'm just saying that I just think, "Hey, guys, you are not on a timer, if you need to take an extra 15 minutes out of your lives to help a band member fix some lyrics and change some things, by all means, do it! The fans will like it a lot more because then they have some great lyrics to listen to!"

But why should they have to do that, rather than JM do it himself?

Because otherwise their lyrics look like they do in BCSL, SC, and other songs like Never Enough do. That's not really bad, but it's nowhere near the level of LTL, LSOAD, TOT and maybe even FT.

*In my opinion.

[ariich]

But why should they have to do that, rather than JM do it himself?

Because otherwise their lyrics look like they do in BCSL, SC, and other songs like Never Enough do. That's not really bad, but it's nowhere near the level of LTL, LSOAD, TOT and maybe even FT.

*In my opinion.

That doesn't have anything to do with my question.

[The Silent Cody]

completely off topic but I'd like an answer nonetheless.

Since I'm not a native speaker can someone tell me what does pocket refer to in JM's phrase from the documentary that "drummer is all when it comes to the pocket and the power"?

This. I don't really get the meaning of the "pocket" too... I'm not a native english speaker ;)but I talk english very flawless ;)help

[Ben_Jamin]

I hope he demoed a song, like he did with ToT.

[j]

Honestly....FT's lyrics weren't that great.
There, I said it. They just didn't do anything for me. LtL really moved me, the lyrics were incredible, but FT is dissapointing. I hope that if he writes for the next album, they will be LtL quality.

Like Zydar said, Fatal Tragedy's lyrics were constrained by the concept of SFAM.  I wouldn't say they're "disappointing" at all, they work just fine for the purpose they're supposed to serve, and that purpose limits them a bit.  But they definitely don't stand out in a "poetic" way like some of his others.

-J

[RuRoRul]

I'm hoping that the lyrics he writes will be good, but I think people might be overhyping them because of how few songs he has written. Trial Of Tears and Learning To Live were amazing lyrically and musically, but Fatal Tragedy (while also a great song) shows that his lyrics aren't always any better (and in fact I'd say they were worse) then Portnoy or Petrucci writing about the same thing. I know that they couldn't exactly be much better since they had to be about the story, but that's the point - not every song is a Learning To Live, and someone's got to write the lyrics to those songs too. And I don't think Myung will be able to produce dozens of lyrics for all sorts of songs, most of them not epics, and automatically make those songs amazing - he can't turn a drop of water into an ocean.

Basically I think he's benefited from only having wrote a couple of songs, so people think everything he writes will be pure gold. I mean if Portnoy had only wrote A Change Of Seasons, or Petrucci had only wrote Scarred, Lines In The Sand, or Voices (or insert whatever older song you think has his best lyrics) and then nothing for 20 years, people would be saying "I want to see some Portnoy lyrics on this album!"

[tjanuranus]

ugh Portnoy...

Cut that crap out now.

Why it's how i feel. Guy wants to take a 5 year break when they are already in their mid 40's and beyond and limits JMX's lyric writing? Not to happy with him.

[WildeSilas]

completely off topic but I'd like an answer nonetheless.

Since I'm not a native speaker can someone tell me what does pocket refer to in JM's phrase from the documentary that "drummer is all when it comes to the pocket and the power"?

To confuse you further (haha): The "pocket" is also a term used to describe how "groovy" a drummer and bass player play (it can be applied to any instrument actually). The term originated around the time of Gene Krupa, during the big band era. If you're counting beats in a measure, the snare typically plays on the 2 and 4 (assuming we're talking about 4/4 time signature). A drummer who plays "in the pocket" will typically lag just a micro-heartbeat behind the 2 and 4, rather than playing exactly on the beat, like a drum machine would. You can hear great examples of this type of playing in most Krupa recordings, and some of Buddy's Rich's big band stuff. Modern examples would be Bootsy Collins (the bass player for P-Funk, Parliament), and Stevie Wonder (particularly the drums and synclavier tracks on songs like Superstitious, Living For the City, or other "funk" numbers). Both Jon Bonham and more recently Jerry Gaskill are revered among drummers for their ability to play "deep in the pocket," which nearly forces the other instrumentalists to play with a more funky, groovy feel (check out "Groove Machine" by King's X).

To tie this into the DT situation: Many prog and technically oriented drummers play very precisely while ignoring this aspect of groove. Mike Portnoy and Neil Peart are two drummers in this genre that notoriously have not ignored it, and are proficient at playing very complex times and patterns while staying "deep in the pocket"). Probably the easiest to hear example of this is the drum intro on DT's 6:00, and on Rush's "Animate" from the Counterparts album. It is a subtle nuance, but if you've ever played bass with a variety of drummers, you realize how important it is for drummers to play in the pocket. Compare DT's "groove" with similar bands like Circus Maximus or Symphony X and you (or at least I) notice an immediate difference in the amount of groove, and IMO this is directly related to the rhythm section of DT consistently playing in the pocket.

Which is also IMO why Mike Mangini or Marco were the only logical replacements for MP in DT. Both have long histories of playing progressive music while maintaining the pocket. All apologies to fans of the other guys, but IMO Donati is the only other drummer (besides those 2) among the 7 that even comes close to MP's ability to play extremely complicated time changes while staying firmly in the pocket. Mangini especially demonstrates this on his work with Vai, but even more so on his tracks from Extreme's "Waiting For the Punchline" (there's an example of a guitar player who plays "deep in the pocket." Eddie Van Halen would be another).

Now you know more than you ever wanted to about the pocket. But it's a particularly relevant discussion related to replacing MP in a band like DT. I think it's one of the primary things that have set them apart from the rest of the prog-metal/rock bands around today. The reason that JMX would particularly be concerned about potential drummers being able to play in the pocket is because that issue would affect his playing more than anyone else (though Petrucci can nail the pocket when it's called for as well).

[Unimatrix]

"Hey, guys, you are not on a timer, if you need to take an extra 15 minutes out of your lives to help a band member fix some lyrics and change some things, by all means, do it! The fans will like it a lot more because then they have some great lyrics to listen to!"

Obviously I can't speak for DT, but from my own experience I can tell that trying to adjust other people's lyrical ideas is not an easy task and feels very awkward, because you're messing with a creative output that you usually cannot identify with completely. Writing complete lyrics of your own can be done faster than finding a workable adjustment to the lyrics of someone else. So probably the guys in DT did not refuse to help JM because they're lazy, but because they weren't comfortable with the process of messing with his art.

[Slain]

I'm hoping that the lyrics he writes will be good, but I think people might be overhyping them because of how few songs he has written. Trial Of Tears and Learning To Live were amazing lyrically and musically, but Fatal Tragedy (while also a great song) shows that his lyrics aren't always any better (and in fact I'd say they were worse) then Portnoy or Petrucci writing about the same thing. I know that they couldn't exactly be much better since they had to be about the story, but that's the point - not every song is a Learning To Live, and someone's got to write the lyrics to those songs too. And I don't think Myung will be able to produce dozens of lyrics for all sorts of songs, most of them not epics, and automatically make those songs amazing - he can't turn a drop of water into an ocean.

Basically I think he's benefited from only having wrote a couple of songs, so people think everything he writes will be pure gold. I mean if Portnoy had only wrote A Change Of Seasons, or Petrucci had only wrote Scarred, Lines In The Sand, or Voices (or insert whatever older song you think has his best lyrics) and then nothing for 20 years, people would be saying "I want to see some Portnoy lyrics on this album!"

I won't deny that things are being overhyped a bit, but people are just excited for JMX to possibly write some lyrics because a majority of DT fans have been disappointed with the lyrics in DT's last two albums. Although JMX hasn't written that many songs, he's still hope for some people that the quality can improve.

Personally, I like the Fatal Tragedy lyrics.

[ariich]

ugh Portnoy...

Cut that crap out now.

Why it's how i feel. Guy wants to take a 5 year break when they are already in their mid 40's and beyond and limits JMX's lyric writing? Not to happy with him.

He didn't limit JM's writing. JM's writing was not in a format that can be put into a song, and MP (and possibly others, nobody knows) was/were unwilling to play around with them to fit them into the music. Which, apparently, JM was also unwilling to do, so I don't see why MP takes all the blame for this.

Either way, Portnoy-bashing is not cool.

[Frosthawk]

It's hard to know exactly what to expect from his lyrics. I would agree that Fatal Tragedy is probably the weakest of his writing, but as Zydar said, that's because he had to write them to fit the storyline - and considering that, they were probably the only lyrics of his that weren't written in advance of the song (if that's true).

In fact, I think Dream Theater's lyrics in general kind of went downhill starting with SFAM. The lyrics on that album were less artful and more literal than the lyrics of the past (but they had to be cause, again, concept album). However, it seems like they've never really -stopped- being sort of literal and plain since then, with a few exceptions.  But Petrucci (for example) has written -awesome- lyrics in the past - Under a Glass Moon, A Mind Beside Itself, Scarred, Lines in the Sand. Sometimes it's easy to forget that in light of the less stellar lyrics on the recent albums.

So basically I hope the return of Myung sort of triggers a return to the writing style of old. If it doesn't, then I don't know.

[tjanuranus]

ugh Portnoy...

Cut that crap out now.

Why it's how i feel. Guy wants to take a 5 year break when they are already in their mid 40's and beyond and limits JMX's lyric writing? Not to happy with him.

He didn't limit JM's writing. JM's writing was not in a format that can be put into a song, and MP (and possibly others, nobody knows) was/were unwilling to play around with them to fit them into the music. Which, apparently, JM was also unwilling to do, so I don't see why MP takes all the blame for this.

Either way, Portnoy-bashing is not cool.

Ok you are the moderator so it's all good. As a 16 year DT fan i'm so frustrated by portnoy lately. It's now i feel i can't help it but i won't post those feelings if it's not wanted. Also about the lyrics, it seemed to be ok other DT songs that are GREAT. like LTL and TOT. I just think "taking the time" to transpose his poems is worth it... 

[WildeSilas]

I hope it's not a mish-mash of old style lyrics with in your face stuff like on BCSL. I have so much trouble getting into that album because it flip-flops back and forth between literal subject matter (ANTR) to esoteric (AROP), and back again (TSF followed by TCOT). Albums like that are very unfocused. One thing I can say for SC is that despite it being my least favorite album, they stuck with a fairly consistent theme of fantastical and symbolic language (with Repentance as a possible exception). I'd prefer all literal type stuff, like Six Degrees, or something like SC, not a mixture of both.

[ariich]

ugh Portnoy...

Cut that crap out now.

Why it's how i feel. Guy wants to take a 5 year break when they are already in their mid 40's and beyond and limits JMX's lyric writing? Not to happy with him.

He didn't limit JM's writing. JM's writing was not in a format that can be put into a song, and MP (and possibly others, nobody knows) was/were unwilling to play around with them to fit them into the music. Which, apparently, JM was also unwilling to do, so I don't see why MP takes all the blame for this.

Either way, Portnoy-bashing is not cool.

Ok you are the moderator so it's all good. As a 16 year DT fan i'm so frustrated by portnoy lately. It's now i feel i can't help it but i won't post those feelings if it's not wanted. Also about the lyrics, it seemed to be ok other DT songs that are GREAT. like LTL and TOT. I just think "taking the time" to transpose his poems is worth it... 

Don't get me wrong, feel free to express your opinions in a respectful manner, we have no problems with that.

But just his name and an angry face is hardly respectful or constructive.

[JPX]

completely off topic but I'd like an answer nonetheless.

Since I'm not a native speaker can someone tell me what does pocket refer to in JM's phrase from the documentary that "drummer is all when it comes to the pocket and the power"?

To confuse you further (haha): The "pocket" is also a term used to describe how "groovy" a drummer and bass player play (it can be applied to any instrument actually). The term originated around the time of Gene Krupa, during the big band era. If you're counting beats in a measure, the snare typically plays on the 2 and 4 (assuming we're talking about 4/4 time signature). A drummer who plays "in the pocket" will typically lag just a micro-heartbeat behind the 2 and 4, rather than playing exactly on the beat, like a drum machine would. You can hear great examples of this type of playing in most Krupa recordings, and some of Buddy's Rich's big band stuff. Modern examples would be Bootsy Collins (the bass player for P-Funk, Parliament), and Stevie Wonder (particularly the drums and synclavier tracks on songs like Superstitious, Living For the City, or other "funk" numbers). Both Jon Bonham and more recently Jerry Gaskill are revered among drummers for their ability to play "deep in the pocket," which nearly forces the other instrumentalists to play with a more funky, groovy feel (check out "Groove Machine" by King's X).

To tie this into the DT situation: Many prog and technically oriented drummers play very precisely while ignoring this aspect of groove. Mike Portnoy and Neil Peart are two drummers in this genre that notoriously have not ignored it, and are proficient at playing very complex times and patterns while staying "deep in the pocket"). Probably the easiest to hear example of this is the drum intro on DT's 6:00, and on Rush's "Animate" from the Counterparts album. It is a subtle nuance, but if you've ever played bass with a variety of drummers, you realize how important it is for drummers to play in the pocket. Compare DT's "groove" with similar bands like Circus Maximus or Symphony X and you (or at least I) notice an immediate difference in the amount of groove, and IMO this is directly related to the rhythm section of DT consistently playing in the pocket.

Which is also IMO why Mike Mangini or Marco were the only logical replacements for MP in DT. Both have long histories of playing progressive music while maintaining the pocket. All apologies to fans of the other guys, but IMO Donati is the only other drummer (besides those 2) among the 7 that even comes close to MP's ability to play extremely complicated time changes while staying firmly in the pocket. Mangini especially demonstrates this on his work with Vai, but even more so on his tracks from Extreme's "Waiting For the Punchline" (there's an example of a guitar player who plays "deep in the pocket." Eddie Van Halen would be another).

Now you know more than you ever wanted to about the pocket. But it's a particularly relevant discussion related to replacing MP in a band like DT. I think it's one of the primary things that have set them apart from the rest of the prog-metal/rock bands around today. The reason that JMX would particularly be concerned about potential drummers being able to play in the pocket is because that issue would affect his playing more than anyone else (though Petrucci can nail the pocket when it's called for as well).

I think Myung was referring more to the space around the drummer created by the offensive line. The better the line, the more time they have to play their beats.

[IdoSC]

But why should they have to do that, rather than JM do it himself?

Because otherwise their lyrics look like they do in BCSL, SC, and other songs like Never Enough do. That's not really bad, but it's nowhere near the level of LTL, LSOAD, TOT and maybe even FT.

*In my opinion.

That doesn't have anything to do with my question.

I have some answer to that but it's kinda hard to explain. Either way, my underline is I'd rather have Myung lyrics. I also can't tell you an objective reason of why he shouldn't just fit the lyrics to the melody himself, so if you're looking for an objective answer then I don't really have one.

My best argument is, at least in my opinion (and I believe most people think so, but go figure), they wrote better lyrics before making that rule and that's why I don't want them to continue following it. Maybe it's just because Myung doesn't write lyrics, maybe it's because of the rule, maybe it's just they didn't have an inspiration or something. But it really seems to me like they wrote better lyrics from SFAM and earlier.