Mike Mangini and Elements of Persuasion

[ReaPsTA]

I've seen this post pop up on the forum a lot:

I didn't know anything about Mangini so I looked up some of his drum solos on Youtube.

This sounds condescending, but does anyone here know he performed the drums on EoP?  If you want a sense of his abilities, that's what you want to hear.  

And for what it's worth, I think it's a very, very good performance.  There aren't a lot of really big moments, but many of the grooves are memorable for being so solid and musical at the same time (chorus for Alone, everything in Lost, the melancholy percussion in Smashed, the verse grooves in the first half of "In Too Deep), plus the fills have a great sense of the moment (check out Alone especially).

In a broader sense, it seems like everyone's judging the pool of drummers from their Youtube solos and instructional video clips.  This makes no sense to me.  I haven't heard any actual song Minneman's played on.  Same with Thomas Lang (not to be lame, because I think Stork is one of the coolest things ever, but his stuff feels more like demos for his drumming).  I've heard some of Donati's work and thought it was okay.  Except for Mangini, honestly the drummer I liked the most was Macaluso.  The songs on his solo album (available legitimately for free on his website) are pretty cool and feature very creative/technical drumming.

Just because he doesn't have a great Youtube solo video, Mangini's treated as this unknown quantity.  But he's the only drummer who makes me think "holy crap, I remember him from this album, and it's awesome."

[darkshot]

I think the reason is, the first instinct people get when they hear about a musician they never heard of, is look him up on youtube.  It just so happens that 90% of the videos that come up on a search for him are drum clinics or drum solos for Steve Vai, etc.  So people watch those since its the first thing to come up.

I agree that watching drum solos alone is a bad way to get a sense of the drummer's abilities, but things like Elements of Persuasion don't show up at all under a search for Mike Mangini on youtube, unless you go in a few pages deep.

I honestly didn't know he played on Elements of Persuasion until a few weeks ago.

[Big Crouton]

I was actually having this same thought yesterday.  I really dig mangini on Waiting For The Punchline and EOP, but I even find myself thinking sometimes that I don't like him as much as some of the other drummers because his drum solos aren't nearly as interesting to me.  Drums solos are just such a useless indicator of how a drummer will function within a band, yet they can be the most memorable aspect of a drummer if they're great at them.

That said, most of my love for Marco Minnemann stems from the work he did with Paul Gilbert on Burning Organ and Space Ship One.  I strongly prefer Minnemann to Bowders, though that is neither here nor there.

[ReaPsTA]

That said, most of my love for Marco Minnemann stems from the work he did with Paul Gilbert on Burning Organ and Space Ship One.

Potentially good combination of musicians.  I might check it out.

[skydivingninja]

I didn't think his EoP performance was all that great.  I mean it was good, but compared to the flash in MP's drumming it sorta falls flat, so if that's his typical metal style (and if he's just going to go fastfastfast on DT songs like he does in drum solos), then I'm not going to be too excited.  If it is him though, of course I'll still give the band a chance. 

[Aniland]

But remember, EoP wasn't that proggy of a release. James' songs on that album were pretty standard in their structure, so I mean... I wouldn't rule his abilities out thanks to that.

[Big Crouton]

That said, most of my love for Marco Minnemann stems from the work he did with Paul Gilbert on Burning Organ and Space Ship One.

Potentially good combination of musicians.  I might check it out.

Do it!  Especially Burning Organ.  Space Ship One was good, but not nearly on the same level as Burning Organ as far as I'm concerned.

[wolfking]

I enjoyed his drumming immensely on that album, more so than Peter on SI.  He great great grooves and wonderful feels throughout, listen to Lost, then listen to Crucify, then listen to Drained, all great drumming.  I really enjoyed the sound of his drums too in the production.  If they sound like that on the next DT release, it should be good, as I feel MP's drum sound has been very flat lately.

[Lotion]

I found this comment on youtube about Mike's performance at this album.

At the time it came out, Mike told me in a lesson he had roughly 2 days to learn and track the Elements of Persuasion album. He said that included getting the drum sounds! So you can only imagine how he would sound having several months to work on the new Dream Theater album! Everyone would be blown away- trust me I know what he is capable of!

This can be pure bullshit. But I didn't really enjoy the drums on EoP that much, so I hope this is one of the reasons.

[dongringo]

But remember, EoP wasn't that proggy of a release. James' songs on that album were pretty standard in their structure, so I mean... I wouldn't rule his abilities out thanks to that.

Exactly. EoP is a straight ahead metal album. I'm totally confident that MM will be a different animal within the DT progressive and more complex style.

[Adami]

He's also on both Mullmuzzler albums, not heavy but very nice none the less with some interesting grooves and fills.

[hefdaddy42]

He's also on both Mullmuzzler albums, not heavy but very nice none the less with some interesting grooves and fills.

This, there is some really cool stuff on those albums.

If it Mangini, DT will be fine.

[emindead]

I think that I never noticed Mangini that much because he is really low in the mix.

[wolfking]

He's also on both Mullmuzzler albums, not heavy but very nice none the less with some interesting grooves and fills.

This, there is some really cool stuff on those albums.

If it Mangini, DT will be fine.

Yep, great albums with some different, interesting styles too.  I'm gonna revisit those albums I think.

[YtseBitsySpider]

didn't he tour with Extreme once too?

[wolfking]

didn't he tour with Extreme once too?

Yep, around 95 I think.

[emtee]

He sounds like a drum machine on EOP.

[Bertielee]

He sounds like a drum machine on EOP.

That is something he's been reproached for. He's really developed the technical side of his drumming and it can sound a little "clinical" at times.

B.Lee

[jdprsaga]

i've been listening his work with annihilator and i think it's more solid than eop and i think there is potentially a good fit for DT.

I think what the OP said about listening to what they have recorded and not just their solos and i do think mangini have a better portfolio than Lang and
minnemann...

My vote was Lang but sure i'll support mangini

[King Postwhore]

didn't he tour with Extreme once too?

Yes.  I saw him with them on the Waiting For the Punchline Tour.  He blew me away.

[Brand X]

Hey guys - First post here....

If it is Mike Mangini, then none of us should be worried about Dream Theater post-Portnoy.........he's an amazing drummer - you don't get to be in Steve Vai's band if your not (take a listen to Fire Garden Suite off Vai's live cd......).

The only thing I think may be tough is filling the void of MP's stage presence - that's where Mike excelled and most if not all candidates would have the same problem.

[rumborak]

He sounds like a drum machine on EOP.

That is something he's been reproached for. He's really developed the technical side of his drumming and it can sound a little "clinical" at times.

B.Lee

I just started listening to EOP, and yeah, I really get the same impression. And frankly, that impression has somewhat surfaced in almost all recordings I've heard of him. He approaches drumming from a very mechanical angle.

rumborak

[darkshot]

He sounds like a drum machine on EOP.

That is something he's been reproached for. He's really developed the technical side of his drumming and it can sound a little "clinical" at times.

B.Lee

I just started listening to EOP, and yeah, I really get the same impression. And frankly, that impression has somewhat surfaced in almost all recordings I've heard of him. He approaches drumming from a very mechanical angle.

rumborak

My thoughts exactly.  Its frustrating because when you say this, people say "Oh well you obviously just haven't heard him play <insert song here>, that one is much better than the other ones you heard."  But sorry, still not feeling it, still sounds a bit too stiff and mechanical.  That seems to me to be just his general style no matter what genre he is adapting it to.

[ReaPsTA]

Elements of Persuasion is stiff?

[darkshot]

Elements of Persuasion is stiff?

Yes it is, to me.  Thats just the feeling I get when I listen to it.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Elements of Persuasion is stiff?

I get the stiff impression too. Then again, Mangini is a SESSION drummer there, so it's not like you really get the best idea of his style there. It'd be like using A7X's Nightmare to evaluate MP. I'm still reserving judgment until we see what the guy actually comes up with in a DT context, particularly if he has a large amount of say in his parts.

[rumborak]

It varies on the album, but there's definitely several songs where he plays so clinically on-time and with repeatable velocity that it sounds like a drum machine.

I'm personally just concerned that with Mangini they would have invited yet another person who has issues with playing natural. I mean, we get the idea, DT can play stuff to a level of perfection that not many other bands can play. I think DT would do well stepping back from that aspect a bit.

rumborak

[rumborak]

delteted

[darkshot]

Elements of Persuasion is stiff?

I get the stiff impression too. Then again, Mangini is a SESSION drummer there, so it's not like you really get the best idea of his style there. It'd be like using A7X's Nightmare to evaluate MP. I'm still reserving judgment until we see what the guy actually comes up with in a DT context, particularly if he has a large amount of say in his parts.

Thats why I've given up on trying to find things I like about all the new speculated drummers.  I will wait until I hear the final release of DT11, since really thats all that matters in this case.  If he sounds great in DT, but not as great in other bands, then I know DT made the right choice.

Edit: Something that hasn't been really brought up.  I was thinking that once the new drummer has to learn all of Portnoy's drumming parts in every DT song, I think he will be able to fit in with the band a lot better than he would in Elements of Persuasion as a session drummer.  As a session drummer they basically tell him what to play for the most part, so he doesn't get the chance to really connect with the band and with the music.  As a permanent member I don't think we'll have to worry about these problems, they will get ironed out pretty quick, and before we know it, we will forget why we even had this argument.

[emtee]

For me it's more of an engineer/producer issue with EOP. Very little dynamics. Very sterile, triggered sounding
bass drums. Toms are very compressed. Whole thing is very compressed sounding and it really sounds like
a machine to me.

[jdprsaga]

I like this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00GXRzoJbiI

Not that it's his best drumming technically but at least i see less stiffness (?)...

[emtee]

That vid is very impressive. No doubt the man has superb interdependance and hand speed.

[gmillerdrake]

I like this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00GXRzoJbiI

Not that it's his best drumming technically but at least i see less stiffness (?)...

After watching that I am really hoping that the rumors are TRUE. Just seems like he'd fit right in.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

I like this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00GXRzoJbiI

Not that it's his best drumming technically but at least i see less stiffness (?)...

After watching that I am really hoping that the rumors are TRUE. Just seems like he'd fit right in.

Agreed. Not that I expected anything less from somebody whom the DT guys deem to be a good fit.

[pain of occupation]

i'm surprised how many people on this board aren't very familiar with his work. we all own the discs he's done with vai and have spun em 666+ times, haven't we?

between that AND his work with james...