The problem with Jordan........

[Bill Carson]

So lately I've been listening to Jordan's Notes on a Dream, some Kevin Moore stuff, Ludovico Einaudi and also Phamie Gow.
Just an observation but as incredible as Jordan is...and he is incredible, for me he lacks mood in his playing when compared to the others.

This would be a typical example;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyS8-YidgzM&feature=related
I feel his interpretation is a bit too cluttered for my liking. Most of the fast passages take me right out of the song, yes its technically great but the mood & ambience have been broken for me.
You compare that to, for example this piece from Phamie Gow;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOF2jNMe2VU
There's no hyper speed parts but the mood is so pure and consequently the emotional impact for me, is greater.
Seems that Rudess is always trying to blow you away with his technique that sometimes I wish he would just calm down, not worry about being voted the Wizard of the year, and just play from his heart.

[Perpetual Change]

Oh, this again.

[7StringedBeast]

Scenes from a Memory, nuff said.

[hefdaddy42]

He IS playing from his heart.

He's having a heart attack.

[kirbywelch92]

Jordan's a tricky player to relate to, because he possesses more talent and ability than even most concert pianists. I wouldn't say his pieces lack emotion, as his ability allows him to express emotion in a more virtuosic manner. When you listen to his work on say Through Her Eyes, About to Crash, and many others, you can tell he possesses a lot of emotion in his playing. However, his ability comes through more than others.

[7StringedBeast]

It's the style of the songwriting these days that is holding Jordan back from being more up front in the mix/doing more atmospheric moody things.  And even so, there have been great moments of emotion in his playing on the past few albums for sure. 

As DT moves to be heavier and heavier and less proggy, we will see the decline of the keyboard.  They are going for the shreddy thing with the keyboards as far as solos go right now.

The problem is not that jordan can't play with emotion.  It's that DT's songs have been getting more and more emotionless IMO.

[Mebert78]

I agree, Bill.  Your observation was been the foundation of many Kevin Moore/Jordan Rudess debates through the years.  While I'm one of the biggest KM fans out there, I have honestly come to appreciate Jordan and I feel that he's a really good fit in current DT.  However, I feel like Jordan's "clutter" problems are most evident mostly when he plays the piano, not the keyboard, and the first link you provided is a good example.

[Bill Carson]

Don't get me wrong, Jordan can play with emotion, he does have that in his locker.
My observation was based on stripping everything down to just a piano and comparing him to other pianists.
There was just a little immaturity that seemed to come through in his playing.

[hefdaddy42]

There's no immaturity in his playing.  You just don't like what he plays.

[In The Name Of Rudess]

Jordan's a tricky player to relate to, because he possesses more talent and ability than even most concert pianists.

That's not true. He's a decent pianist, but his abilities aren't even close to concert pianists' abilities.

I wouldn't say his pieces lack emotion, as his ability allows him to express emotion in a more virtuosic manner.

I would say some of his pieces lack emotion. Like you mentioned, he is quite capable of playing with emotion. However, in some pieces, including most of his piano improvisations I think he goes overboard.

Now, I'm not saying virtuosic playing means playing with no emotion. There are concert pianists who play works by Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, etc. that are many times more difficult than anything Jordan plays, but they still manage to touch me emotionally. When Jordan plays I usually just hear scales and arpeggio runs. A fast scale or arpeggio run is supposed to be an outburst of emotion. In Jordan's playing they seem to be almost mandatory, especially during his improvisations. Like he has to do a fast run every 2 seconds.

[JediKnight1969]

I miss Kevin for his songwriting. Images & words and Awake are masterpieces and in big part because of him: his influence is all around those classic records. When Derek arrived I thought the band was safe. The melody element was still there (and after listening Planet X, nobody can say anything about his skills). Then, Jordan. A beast. But, again: Scenes from a memory. One of the best albums of all time. Is not a testimony of Jordan´s songwriting but it definitely shows his playing versatility. He is indeed a monster.

[j]

It's the style of the songwriting these days that is holding Jordan back from being more up front in the mix/doing more atmospheric moody things.  And even so, there have been great moments of emotion in his playing on the past few albums for sure. 

As DT moves to be heavier and heavier and less proggy, we will see the decline of the keyboard.  They are going for the shreddy thing with the keyboards as far as solos go right now.

The problem is not that jordan can't play with emotion.  It's that DT's songs have been getting more and more emotionless IMO.

I think I agree with this.  The role of the keyboards in DT's more recent music does not appeal to me.

I also think it's dumb to say anybody "can't play with emotion".  What does that even mean?

Jordan's a tricky player to relate to, because he possesses more talent and ability than even most concert pianists.

That's not true. He's a decent pianist, but his abilities aren't even close to concert pianists' abilities.

Is this true?  I have no grasp of this type of thing, but based on my limited knowledge, I can't perceive a great difference in "talent" or "virtuosity" between Rudess and the concert pianists I've seen.

-J

[jsem]

Jordan's a tricky player to relate to, because he possesses more talent and ability than even most concert pianists.

That's not true. He's a decent pianist, but his abilities aren't even close to concert pianists' abilities.

I wouldn't say his pieces lack emotion, as his ability allows him to express emotion in a more virtuosic manner.

I would say some of his pieces lack emotion. Like you mentioned, he is quite capable of playing with emotion. However, in some pieces, including most of his piano improvisations I think he goes overboard.

Now, I'm not saying virtuosic playing means playing with no emotion. There are concert pianists who play works by Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, etc. that are many times more difficult than anything Jordan plays, but they still manage to touch me emotionally. When Jordan plays I usually just hear scales and arpeggio runs. A fast scale or arpeggio run is supposed to be an outburst of emotion. In Jordan's playing they seem to be almost mandatory, especially during his improvisations. Like he has to do a fast run every 2 seconds.

Well. I think Jordan could have become a concert pianist - one very successful one - had he only continued playing classical piano. He possesses some of the attributes one would find in a classical pianist, simply because that's how he started out. But you're right about him being miles away from the level of a concert pianist.

[emtee]

One of the most talked about subjects in every DT related forum since he joined the band.
There is no arguing about his talent and ability. He is among the elite few keyboardists.
All I can do is be honest and confess that I have never been able to connect with his
playing like I could with KM or DS. His gadgetry obsessed, hyper run, note bending
approach seems too similar from album to album. I would be VERY happy if he decided
to try a much more traditional sound on this next album. Give me emotion and soul and
leave behind the fingers moving at mach speed.

[orcus116]

When Jordan plays I usually just hear scales and arpeggio runs. A fast scale or arpeggio run is supposed to be an outburst of emotion. In Jordan's playing they seem to be almost mandatory, especially during his improvisations. Like he has to do a fast run every 2 seconds.

That's definitely his biggest problem. Thing is I wouldn't know what it's like to that skilled and I could very well imagine that not playing fast runs every few seconds could get boring.

[rumborak]

 I think boredom is a big one, and just pure habit. It seems he practiced arpeggios a lot when he learned to play piano, and it just became a fallback option that he probably now just considers part of his style.
I once read somebody say that the pauses in music are more important than the notes. I wish DT overall would take that advice to heart. They often overload their music.

rumborak

[In The Name Of Rudess]

Jordan's a tricky player to relate to, because he possesses more talent and ability than even most concert pianists.

That's not true. He's a decent pianist, but his abilities aren't even close to concert pianists' abilities.

Is this true?  I have no grasp of this type of thing, but based on my limited knowledge, I can't perceive a great difference in "talent" or "virtuosity" between Rudess and the concert pianists I've seen.

-J

Rudess's technique is quite limited when compared to concert pianists. Concert pianists can play the octave runs and scales/runs at 3 to 4 times the speed Rudess can. For example, here's Rudess's arpeggio runs played 3 times as fast with 2 hands at the same time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTjJjda31rc
Octave runs played about ten times as fast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8alxBofd_eQ&feature=related
And these aren't even nearly the hardest pieces in the concert pianists' repertoire. This is just the technique, there are other important factors like the tone, pedaling etc. which Jordan doesn't even have to think about.

When Jordan plays I usually just hear scales and arpeggio runs. A fast scale or arpeggio run is supposed to be an outburst of emotion. In Jordan's playing they seem to be almost mandatory, especially during his improvisations. Like he has to do a fast run every 2 seconds.

That's definitely his biggest problem. Thing is I wouldn't know what it's like to that skilled and I could very well imagine that not playing fast runs every few seconds could get boring.

I don't want to brag, but I can play most of the runs he does and I don't feel bored when playing slow parts. When I'm emotionally engaged in the music I feel no need to play fast. It could be that Jordan feels the need to play fast because he thinks he has to live up to the image people have of him as a "shredder" type keyboard player.

Don't get me wrong, Jordan can play with emotion, he does have that in his locker.
My observation was based on stripping everything down to just a piano and comparing him to other pianists.
There was just a little immaturity that seemed to come through in his playing.

There's no immaturity in his playing.  You just don't like what he plays.

From a classical point of view, there is indeed immaturity in his playing. Most concert pianists' careers start off as highly virtuosic with little content, then they learn to put more emotion and feeling into their playing. Usually this change occurs at around age 25 in concert pianists. So from that point of view Rudess's playing (playing fast for the sake of playing fast) is indeed immature.

[Orion1967]

I once read somebody say that the pauses in music are more important than the notes. I wish DT overall would take that advice to heart. They often overload their music.

rumborak

If I could think of anything in a consctuctive criticism way to ay of DT's music it would be this.  You are spot on rumbo.  I mean I abolutely love the complexity and techincality of JP and JR's work in solo's and such but one of my favorite solo's of JP's (I know we are talking about JR here but this is a good example) is the near end solo in CoT.  Soulful, follows the melody line and imho just right at the right place in the song.

Having said that, I still get a chubby when Jordan rips out what sounds like 32nd note arpeggios.  

[Cool Chris]

From a classical point of view, there is indeed immaturity in his playing. Most concert pianists' careers start off as highly virtuosic with little content, then they learn to put more emotion and feeling into their playing. Usually this change occurs at around age 25 in concert pianists. So from that point of view Rudess's playing (playing fast for the sake of playing fast) is indeed immature.

He doesn't play fast for the sake of playing fast, he plays fast because that is how he feels his talents are best used within the DT framework. And it is up to the listener to get his/her emotions out of the music, not to judge whether the artist is putting their emotion in to it.

I once read somebody say that the pauses in music are more important than the notes. I wish DT overall would take that advice to heart. They often overload their music.

rumborak

Nicholas Meyer (of Star Trek II fame) likes to say 'Art thrives on restrictions.' How do you best convey your story/message with the least amount of stuff (for lack of a better word) to work with. Lame example, but George Lucas had a meager budget for Star Wars Ep4, but it didn't hamper his ability to tell his story. Because he had limited resources to work with, he had to use more creativity. Conversely, did throwing $200+ million at each prequel make them any better from a story-telling standpoint?

[In The Name Of Rudess]

He doesn't play fast for the sake of playing fast, he plays fast because that is how he feels his talents are best used within the DT framework.

Fair enough, but he also plays fast in projects that have nothing to do with DT, like his piano improvisations. There, I do think he plays fast for the sake of playing fast.

And it is up to the listener to get his/her emotions out of the music, not to judge whether the artist is putting their emotion in to it.

In classical music, which I was talking about, it is very much up to the listener to judge whether the artist is putting their emotion into the music. In fact, the reason many virtuoso pianists (and other instrumentalists) never become well-known is because they have trouble putting their emotion into the music.

[LTE3]

I love is playing, but I don't love his preferred sound he goes to. I actually Think Derek had one of the best sounds and could make his keyboard ooze coolness. With Jordan we rarely get even a true hammond organ sound which in the rare case we do for me sounds great in the song. like the sound he used in Stargazer or Blind Faith (first solo after piano)
As the guys said in one of the DVD's he sticks with his space invader type sound too often in my opion. As far as the emotion comments listen to About to Crash and Solitary Shell.

[Valdor]

I once read an interesting take on how musicians progress.
1. Learn to play easy stuff
2. Learn to play complex stuff
3. Learn to play complex stuff so that it sounds easy
It kinda seems that JR has mastered stage 2 but is stuck there most of the time.

[rumborak]

This would be a typical example;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyS8-YidgzM&feature=related

There's also another thing, apart from all the flourishes. He seems to hit every note with a sledgehammer.

rumborak

[Vesper]

As a talented musician as he is, Jordan is using the keyboards with too much distortion and fast notes, sounding like a second guitar. This is related to a more "heavy" sound of DT in recent years. But I miss the more melodic and structure role of the keyboard in DT's music. 

[Ben_Jamin]

I want him to do what he did with Wither(piano version).

[Zukuduku]

I think accusing JR for always overplaying is nonsense. Just listen to Vacant or the intro of Best of Times and you will hear very beautiful and tasteful playing.

However, I agree that his solos and lead sounds have become more boring and repeating in the latest albums. Hopefully the next album will not be so "balls to the walls" any more, so he could experiment with the sounds a bit more. I am rather sure that his creativity is not yet exhausted.

[ariich]

Don't get me wrong, Jordan can play with emotion, he does have that in his locker.
My observation was based on stripping everything down to just a piano and comparing him to other pianists.
There was just a little immaturity that seemed to come through in his playing.

There's no immaturity in his playing.  You just don't like what he plays.

From a classical point of view, there is indeed immaturity in his playing. Most concert pianists' careers start off as highly virtuosic with little content, then they learn to put more emotion and feeling into their playing. Usually this change occurs at around age 25 in concert pianists. So from that point of view Rudess's playing (playing fast for the sake of playing fast) is indeed immature.

Concert pianists don't generally play rock/metal keyboard, and don't tend to improvise, so it's not a very relevant comparison.

Also, is it just me who finds it funny that the OP is comparing JR to two very minimalist musicians?

[2Timer]

I never heard that version of HY. I actually like it a lot more than I thought I would; the bluesy stuff he threw in at times was really cool, and I don't think he really overplayed. Of course, I'm judging that on a curve.
I do agree with the OP, though. I really wanted to buy his Christmas album. but when I previewed it, it was extremely overplayed. That sort of thing should especially be easier to listen to, and done with more taste than technique. I know he has great taste when he wants to, but he does tend to want to play a million notes a minute.
I friend of mine is a photographer who had the chance to meet JR at a gig, and he played a little for him. His description of seeing him play from a distance of about a foot was 'it was like watching math.' So it is impressive, but yeah, I agree that I'd love him more if he let it breathe more and not try as many notes as possible.

[jsem]

Some of the licks he used there were great, but at times I wish he woulda stuck to simplicity. It was still a wonderful arrangement though.

One thing that I noticed is that it wasn't completely on time in the beginning, but that was how he meant for it to be - but it was a bit annoying.

[KevShmev]

Rudess plays plenty of cool, melodic stuff, but my biggest criticism of him has always been how so many of his solos sound like he is trying to bend notes into submission.

Also, I hate it when he wanks up pre-1999 DT songs.  The example I always give is the brief instrumental section before the "likely or not..." section near the end of "Only a Matter of Time."  In the original, Kevin Moore plays a beautiful section, where the notes are sparse, but him simply holding each down gives them a resonance that works extremely well, but Rudess always adds tons of arpeggios to it, and it sounds like a jumbled mess.

[MarkFitDT]

Rudess plays plenty of cool, melodic stuff, but my biggest criticism of him has always been how so many of his solos sound like he is trying to bend notes into submission.

Also, I hate it when he wanks up pre-1999 DT songs.  The example I always give is the brief instrumental section before the "likely or not..." section near the end of "Only a Matter of Time."  In the original, Kevin Moore plays a beautiful section, where the notes are sparse, but him simply holding each down gives them a resonance that works extremely well, but Rudess always adds tons of arpeggios to it, and it sounds like a jumbled mess.

100% agree, I remember him butchering the OAMOT solo and the Trial of Tears solo although I did hear a later version which resembled Derek's solo a bit more than a bunch of random notes. 2 of the best solos (IMHO) in DT's catalogue and they should be left as they are.

[orcus116]

Nothing compares to that travesty of the "Take The Time" solo from CIM. It's like Jordan was purposely giving a "fuck you" to all the fans in destroying arguably the band's best keyboard solo.

[skydivingninja]

I miss Kevin for his songwriting. Images & words and Awake are masterpieces and in big part because of him: his influence is all around those classic records.

Not so much Awake actually, except for the songs he wrote lyrics for.  According to the other guys he was fairly detached from that album. 

I personally like Jordan quite a bit.  Sure he overplays on the piano sometimes and his keyboard solos aren't the best (most keyboard solos in metal songs aren't that great, tbh), he's still a master of them.  Those piano improvs he did on youtube shortly after MP left should convince anyone that he's a fantastic musician, not just a player.

[robwebster]

I miss Kevin for his songwriting. Images & words and Awake are masterpieces and in big part because of him: his influence is all around those classic records.

Not so much Awake actually, except for the songs he wrote lyrics for.  According to the other guys he was fairly detached from that album. 

Yeah... lots of people cite Awake as evidence that Kevin was a good songwriter, and while he was a good songwriter, the man's contribution to the album is fairly minimal. By all reports he'd already more or less signed off before the sessions started.

Good to like Awake. Good to like Kevin Moore. Both wonderful things, certainly. But the two have very little to do with one another.

[skydivingninja]

Well, besides 6:00, Lie, and Space Dye Vest.