The problem with Jordan........

[Remco]

It's true. Jordan was so great once. SFAM/SDoiT was obviously brilliant, but a lot of Train of Thought too.(Stream of Consciousness, ItNoG, Vacant, As I Am) He was still very tasteful/creative (sound and playingwise) back then. Octavarium was okay too I guess. Things went wrong since SC. I've lost interest in Jordan his playing since then (Also in DT, but that's another discussion). The creativity overall is gone. Listen to The Great Debate, About to Crash (reprise) and Misunderstood. Stuff like that. SO brilliant. It's really sad to listen to stuff like The Ministry of Lost Souls or A Nightmare to Remember (love the song, but JR his playing just isn't that interesting).
I think he went from being equal to John Petrucci, creative wise to more of an accompanying keyboardist with a sporadic tasteless solo.

[i_am_here_]

Count Of Tuscany      Some of his best work on BCSL IMO. I definantly agree though that it seems his writing with DT isn't as emotional capturing as Kevin Moore, but I think it's that nowadays he's taking on a more second guitar type role. His work with LTE is still some of my favorite work from him.

[dongringo]

I certainly feel the emotion in his playing on Notes On A Dream. As far as DT, his playing tends to get lost in the mix, especially on the recent stuff. When I listen using my best headphones, dac, and headphone amp I hear the keys (and everything else) much clearer and appreciate it more.

[KevShmev]

  His work with LTE is still some of my favorite work from him.

Same here.  This might be hard for some to believe, given that I am critical of Rudess (over)playing at times, but when it was announced that he was joining DT, I was excited as anyone, because I loved his LTE work so much.  "Liquid Dreams" is just stupid good.

[SnakeEyes]

Oh, this again.

Oh no!  Not another..... OPINION!  Not that again! 

[tri.ad]

I also fall under the "love JR's playing in LTE" category. His work in Freedom Of Speech is absolutely amazing.

Also, I mostly agree with what Kev and orcus said. However, when JR shines, he shines really bright. I love his parts in Blind Faith and TCOT. He really did some great solos (also great ones that are in a metal song, see The Glass Prison), but they often tend to be kind of samey, uninteresting and - what irks me the most - groove-lacking. The latter is especially when he relies on pitch-bending and similar stuff (Honor Thy Father, ANTR).

[ariich]

Oh, this again.

Oh no!  Not another..... OPINION!  Not that again! 

I think it's more this particular topic that PC was referring to. Which is fair enough, it's come up so many times.

[wolfking]

I have always prefered Derek and Kevin to Jordan, but I have accepted his place in the band.

[Bertielee]

I have always prefered Derek and Kevin to Jordan, but I have accepted his place in the band.

I can see it : otherwise, you wouldn't have posted more than 5000 times on the forum!

B.Lee

[wolfking]

I have always prefered Derek and Kevin to Jordan, but I have accepted his place in the band.

I can see it : otherwise, you wouldn't have posted more than 5000 times on the forum!

B.Lee

That's not necessarily true, n00b!!! 

[In The Name Of Rudess]

Don't get me wrong, Jordan can play with emotion, he does have that in his locker.
My observation was based on stripping everything down to just a piano and comparing him to other pianists.
There was just a little immaturity that seemed to come through in his playing.

There's no immaturity in his playing.  You just don't like what he plays.

From a classical point of view, there is indeed immaturity in his playing. Most concert pianists' careers start off as highly virtuosic with little content, then they learn to put more emotion and feeling into their playing. Usually this change occurs at around age 25 in concert pianists. So from that point of view Rudess's playing (playing fast for the sake of playing fast) is indeed immature.

Concert pianists don't generally play rock/metal keyboard, and don't tend to improvise, so it's not a very relevant comparison.

I would say from experience that over 95% of concert pianists do improvise. A lot. The cadenzas in many classical pieces are usually improvised by the pianist. And I was talking about his piano improvisations/solo piano work, not about his keyboard work in DT. So I think my comparison is correct.

[YtseBitsySpider]

I think boredom is a big one, and just pure habit. It seems he practiced arpeggios a lot when he learned to play piano, and it just became a fallback option that he probably now just considers part of his style.
I once read somebody say that the pauses in music are more important than the notes. I wish DT overall would take that advice to heart. They often overload their music.

rumborak

Post of the fucking decade.

Derek was better than both of them. His playing had pauses, tone, and some flaws. It was the mixture of these imperfections that made for some really great music from DT. What I liked the most about Kevin was the way you could hear him...and not hear him at the same time. A very difficult thing to pull of.

[Bertielee]

I have always prefered Derek and Kevin to Jordan, but I have accepted his place in the band.

I can see it : otherwise, you wouldn't have posted more than 5000 times on the forum!

B.Lee

That's not necessarily true, n00b!!! 

Call me noob as much as you want, I don't consider myself one, being on DTF from the first. You, postaholic!

B.Lee

[Metabog]

I think boredom is a big one, and just pure habit. It seems he practiced arpeggios a lot when he learned to play piano, and it just became a fallback option that he probably now just considers part of his style.
I once read somebody say that the pauses in music are more important than the notes. I wish DT overall would take that advice to heart. They often overload their music.

rumborak

Post of the fucking decade.

Derek was better than both of them. His playing had pauses, tone, and some flaws. It was the mixture of these imperfections that made for some really great music from DT. What I liked the most about Kevin was the way you could hear him...and not hear him at the same time. A very difficult thing to pull of.

How do pauses and flaws make a better musician than one with no pauses and flaws?

I don't think Derek had more "flaws" than JR, he's equally great at what he does, he just has a different style. I think JR fits the new style Dream Theater a lot better, but hearing ACOS/FII is a pretty nostalgic thing to do, and Derek does have an instantly recognizable sound, but that's all in the past now and it's not coming back. It's not a matter of who's better. Steven Wilson has maybe 1% of John Petrucci or Steve Vai's guitar skill but he's an equally great musician, and I don't hear him make any mistakes in his playing, and that's what matters. He puts all of his skill into creating amazing sounds with the skills he's got, and it's an instantly recognizable sound.

I think JR could do some awesome stuff in DT if he wasn't forced by the rest of the music into just playing solos. Some of the stuff he does in the background during the songs is amazing, but it's all buried in the mix. Just pick up the BC&SL stems and listen to Jordan's keys in Wither, it's a whole different song.

[dongringo]

Some of the stuff he does in the background during the songs is amazing, but it's all buried in the mix. Just pick up the BC&SL stems and listen to Jordan's keys in Wither, it's a whole different song.

[/quote]

That's exactly what I was trying to say. I don't know why he gets buried so deep in the mix. Not everyone has audiophile grade gear to bring it out. The average ipod listener is missing out unfortunately.

[ronrule]

Yep, some of this is a criticism of Jordan's style, which I can agree with.  But perhaps an equal part is the overall production and JP's developed (or devolved?) musical role.  I remember years ago reading JP's column in Guitar World (around Awake?) and he talked about how as a guitar player, he's considers himself a second keyboardist or something.  A very supporting role -- not always leading with riffs.  We all know how this has changed in the last few albums.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

That's true. The BC&SL mix is too drum/guitar happy and the keys often get lost in between.

[ricky]

I have always prefered Derek and Kevin to Jordan, but I have accepted his place in the band.

you asked for it.

[ricky]

[jsem]

 

[wolfking]

Sorry call me slow but I admit, what did I say? 

[Adami]

Rudess's technique is quite limited when compared to concert pianists. Concert pianists can play the octave runs and scales/runs at 3 to 4 times the speed Rudess can. For example, here's Rudess's arpeggio runs played 3 times as fast with 2 hands at the same time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTjJjda31rc
Octave runs played about ten times as fast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8alxBofd_eQ&feature=related
And these aren't even nearly the hardest pieces in the concert pianists' repertoire. This is just the technique, there are other important factors like the tone, pedaling etc. which Jordan doesn't even have to think about.

Wow. I'm pretty sure I can see Jordan playing that Chopin piece, but that second clip was just mind blowing.

[ddtonfire]

Rudess's technique is quite limited when compared to concert pianists. Concert pianists can play the octave runs and scales/runs at 3 to 4 times the speed Rudess can. For example, here's Rudess's arpeggio runs played 3 times as fast with 2 hands at the same time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTjJjda31rc
Octave runs played about ten times as fast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8alxBofd_eQ&feature=related
And these aren't even nearly the hardest pieces in the concert pianists' repertoire. This is just the technique, there are other important factors like the tone, pedaling etc. which Jordan doesn't even have to think about.

Bah, no emotion in those clips. All wankery and showing off. Where's the feeling?

[j]

Rudess's technique is quite limited when compared to concert pianists. Concert pianists can play the octave runs and scales/runs at 3 to 4 times the speed Rudess can. For example, here's Rudess's arpeggio runs played 3 times as fast with 2 hands at the same time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTjJjda31rc
Octave runs played about ten times as fast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8alxBofd_eQ&feature=related
And these aren't even nearly the hardest pieces in the concert pianists' repertoire. This is just the technique, there are other important factors like the tone, pedaling etc. which Jordan doesn't even have to think about.

Wow. I'm pretty sure I can see Jordan playing that Chopin piece, but that second clip was just mind blowing.

No joke, good Christ that was inhuman!  Would you say there are a decent number of concert pianists capable of that?

-J

[ariich]

I would say from experience that over 95% of concert pianists do improvise. A lot. The cadenzas in many classical pieces are usually improvised by the pianist. And I was talking about his piano improvisations/solo piano work, not about his keyboard work in DT. So I think my comparison is correct.

Many write their own cadenzas, but that's not the same as improvising. Classical piano is one thing, whereas JR does everything, so of course he won't be as perfect at every style as those who specialise in one thing.

Rudess's technique is quite limited when compared to concert pianists. Concert pianists can play the octave runs and scales/runs at 3 to 4 times the speed Rudess can. For example, here's Rudess's arpeggio runs played 3 times as fast with 2 hands at the same time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTjJjda31rc
Octave runs played about ten times as fast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8alxBofd_eQ&feature=related
And these aren't even nearly the hardest pieces in the concert pianists' repertoire. This is just the technique, there are other important factors like the tone, pedaling etc. which Jordan doesn't even have to think about.

Wow. I'm pretty sure I can see Jordan playing that Chopin piece, but that second clip was just mind blowing.

No joke, good Christ that was inhuman!  Would you say there are a decent number of concert pianists capable of that?

-J

Hard to say, concert pianists come in all shapes and sizes (and styles) but a lot are technically ridiculously good. They don't tend to be very versatile though, which is a completely different sort of skill.

[Bill Carson]

Some really interesting points, especially from 'In The Names Of Rudess' I've learnt a lot about the concert pianist that's for sure.
My intention was not to go down the usual, who's better for DT; Jordan, Kevin or Derek...as we ALL know its clearly Kevin lol !
Anyway my point was that after listening to a load of acoustic piano stuff, Jordan's playing seemed immature in places.
My comparison was Phamie Gow (I could of used Einaudi but that really would be unfair), no one has commented on her piece of music, but her playing seems so much more mature to me.

Which leads onto a wider question.....does the type of music DT create and their standing in this genre, lend itself to them trying to be top dog in the technical brilliance stakes ?
And by doing so is that the reason why this immaturity (assuming you think there is any) comes into play ?

Didn't mean to pick on Jordan as I guess this could apply to any of the other members, but I noticed it more with him that's all.

[YtseBitsySpider]

It's a matter of taste.
If you like the music full of technical wankery then it's jr.
If you like great songs that may lack alot of the wankery but seem to flow better as a song. Then it's Derek.
If you don't to hear any keyboards then it's Kevin.

[nikatapi]

If you don't to hear any keyboards then it's Kevin.

[Perpetual Change]

If you like the music full of technical wankery then it's jr.
If you like great songs that may lack alot of the wankery but seem to flow better as a song. Then it's Derek.
If you don't to hear any keyboards then it's Kevin.

I like all three, and this is a terrible post.

[In The Name Of Rudess]

No joke, good Christ that was inhuman!  Would you say there are a decent number of concert pianists capable of that?

-J

This is standard concert repertoire, basically all concert pianists are capable of playing these pieces. There are many pieces in the repertoire that are way harder than this. The woman in the second video (Yuju Wang) was only 21 at the time of recording, so she's not even at her pinnacle yet, technique-wise.

They don't tend to be very versatile though, which is a completely different sort of skill.

This used to be true until 20-30 years ago. Before 1975 or so most classical pianists only played classical music, but many of them are now branching out into jazz/funk/pop music. There are even "hybrid"-pianists now, who are virtuosos in both jazz and classical music (Keith Jarrett, Chick Corea, Bill Mays, Kirill Gerstein etc.).

Many write their own cadenzas, but that's not the same as improvising. Classical piano is one thing, whereas JR does everything, so of course he won't be as perfect at every style as those who specialise in one thing.

In the light of my previous point, I would say it is definitely possible to be "perfect" at multiple styles.

[Tomislav95]

It's matter of you.I more like Moore than Jordan but Jordan is great, too.Some of his solos are annoying for me, some are great

[robwebster]

It's a matter of taste.
If you like the music full of technical wankery then it's jr.
If you like great songs that may lack alot of the wankery but seem to flow better as a song. Then it's Derek.
If you don't to hear any keyboards then it's Kevin.

Looks like I'm the only one who thought this line was hilarious. Love it.

[Bertielee]

It's a matter of taste.
If you like the music full of technical wankery then it's jr.
If you like great songs that may lack alot of the wankery but seem to flow better as a song. Then it's Derek.
If you don't to hear any keyboards then it's Kevin.

Looks like I'm the only one who thought this line was hilarious. Love it.

No, I find it hilarious too.

B.Lee

[Bone_Daddy]

I once read somebody say that the pauses in music are more important than the notes. I wish DT overall would take that advice to heart. They often overload their music.

rumborak

They have some great pauses in "Surrounded". The song actually breathes IMHO.

[Bone_Daddy]

There's also another thing, apart from all the flourishes. He seems to hit every note with a sledgehammer.

rumborak

Do you mean when he is playing with DT? Then, maybe, perhaps he does. However, listening to Notes on a Dream, it is quite the reverse.