Mike's response to an open letter on his forum

[Nic35]

0. Says he doesn't like James' voice publically.
1. Leaves band.
2. Cry about being forced to leave.
3. Get mad over discussions of possible future drummers on his forum.
4. Delete threads with such discussions.
5. Says that the rest of the band would need to put 110% into everything they do to fill his shoes.
6. Says that it would be a tragedy if he never plays with the band again.
7. Bitch about Blabbermouth taking things out of context yet fall into their trap and remove James' tour dates.
8. Posts an apology in a half hearted way "okay fine whatever sorry".
9. Calls himself a victim.

Literally still have fans that defend him wow.

0. He said he wasn't into that style of singing anymore. Not that he doesn't like it.
2. He didn't cry at all. Total bullshit. He and the band said that all went down in a very friendly way.
3. He said in a polite way that it was hard for him to see discussions about the next drummer, that's why he asked to avoid the subject for now.
4. It's just normal. It's HIS forum. Like I said, he asked it in a polite way. His 'fans' should've understood how he felt.
5. He never said that.
6. It would be a tragedy because he loves DT and loves the guys, that's why it would be a tragedy. He didn't say that in an arrogant way.
7. That wasn't actually bright from MP.
8. The letter was ridiculous. What did you expect?
9. Because he is a victim of thousands of people (like you) that are bitching him.

Wtf is wrong with you?

[The Letter M]

0. Says he doesn't like James' voice publically.
1. Leaves band.
2. Cry about being forced to leave.
3. Get mad over discussions of possible future drummers on his forum.
4. Delete threads with such discussions.
5. Says that the rest of the band would need to put 110% into everything they do to fill his shoes.
6. Says that it would be a tragedy if he never plays with the band again.
7. Bitch about Blabbermouth taking things out of context yet fall into their trap and remove James' tour dates.
8. Posts an apology in a half hearted way "okay fine whatever sorry".
9. Calls himself a victim.

Literally still have fans that defend him wow.

0. He said he wasn't into that style of singing anymore. Not that he doesn't like it.
2. He didn't cry at all. Total bullshit. He and the band said that all went down in a very friendly way.
3. He said in a polite way that it was hard for him to see discussions about the next drummer, that's why he asked to avoid the subject for now.
4. It's just normal. It's HIS forum. Like I said, he asked it in a polite way. His 'fans' should've understood how he felt.
5. He never said that.
6. It would be a tragedy because he loves DT and loves the guys, that's why it would be a tragedy. He didn't say that in an arrogant way.
7. That wasn't actually bright from MP.
8. The letter was ridiculous. What did you expect?
9. Because he is a victim of thousands of people (like you) that are bitching him.

Wtf is wrong with you?

IIRC, he said something about the "110%" thing on his interview with Eddie Trunk. It was just some gross exaggeration about how much he did in the band and that the new drummer, and/or the rest of the band would have "big shoes to fill" because of his absence.

-Marc.

[Weymolith]

You know, I actually think I will put it back.

[Nic35]

Oh okay then. I didn't hear that interview.

[Ħ]

Can someone provide me a source to where he has said he doesn't like JLB's voice?

[elmatto]

Holy cow. I certainly wasn't expecting this much drama to unfold. Last I checked they had just announced the thing. Come back a few weeks later and shit hits the fan.
I certainly hope this doesn't get worse.

[ariich]

Rich, there is no way that open letter was "good" if by "good" you mean "good apology".

Any apology consisting of the lines highlighted by Orcus above is not a good one. It actually reminds me of a Curb Your Enthusiasm episode.

His post covered a lot of different stuff. Regarding the misunderstanding, he apologised for it. If you want to not believe it, fine, but don't go trying to turn everyone else cynical as well.

[Perpetual Change]

Rich, I have no idea how anyone could construe Portnoy's post as an "apology." He stated several times that he "didn't know what he was supposed to be sorry for," but he was "sorry" the fans were upset and "sad" about it. He hasn't even admitted there was a misunderstanding as far as I've read, either. His post still carried the off-base belief that his stuff was gone from DT.net. From what I can tell, he still misunderstands the situation as much as he did when he made his first post.

It was totally a "I'm sorry that your upset, but I'm not sorry for how I've acted" moment for him. There's a big difference between actually apologizing and "being sorry someone is upset."

Heck, Portnoy even BLAMED JAMES for not calling him before responding to his post. What's that all about???

Sorry, I don't think it has anything to do with cynicism. While I'm glad Portnoy's walking away from this and think it's for his own good and for the good of DT and the fans, what he posted was definitely not an apology in any meaningful sense of the word. I agree it's useless for us fans to keep beating his shortcomings in the ground, especially as long as he keeps his promise to stop posting this stuff, but let's not fool ourselves by pretending Portnoy's post actually conveyed any sense of having admitted any responsibility.

Can someone provide me a source to where he has said he doesn't like JLB's voice?

It's in Lifting Shadows. However, if you look through Portnoy's "prog blog" you'll find an initial harsher and more "off the cuff" version of how he feels about James' singing. You'll have to do that on your own because I'm too lazy.

[ariich]

Did you even read my post? And the original interactions between MP and the forumer? He said that stuff about other factors (like why he owed the fans an apology, which he doesn't, and which the forumer confirmed wasn't what he meant).

Yes he explained why he posted publicly (that JLB hadn't replied to him) but it's a stretch ton construe that to "blaming" JLB. It was just the reason he posted publicly, and he acknowledged that it was a misunderstanding and he apologised. As I have said, and had to quote because it was apparently ignored, if the cynics want to not believe the apology, fine, whatever. But the FACT is that he apologised, which I can't remember him doing before. I think that says a lot, as apologies obviously don't come easily to him.

[Perpetual Change]

EDIT: Hope you haven't already read my post and are responding, ariich.

The point is, we can disagree with whether the apology was a good one or not, but I don't think most people who, like me, disagree with the notion that it was a *real* apology¹ are being cynical. It's just not fair to act like Mike's response wasn't questionable at the very least. If anything, construing Mike's post as a "real apology" requires just as much "optimism" as construing it as more self-serving banter from Mike requires some "cynicism."

My feelings about this all are, in the end,  neither cynical nor optimistic. I'm just glad he's walking away from it all. Glad in a very DT-discussion drained "I hope this shit never happens again" kind of way.

¹A real apology, at least to James, who it should have been directed to, rather than the fans-- who where angry at Mike for throwing James under like that, since he apparently still doesn't 'get what he did wrong.'

[IdoSC]

However, if you look through Portnoy's "prog blog" you'll find an initial harsher and more "off the cuff" version of how he feels about James' singing. You'll have to do that on your own because I'm too lazy.

Can you please tell me the date of this post? I tried looking for it, but that "blog" has 28 pages...I have no idea where it could be.

Also, couldn't find an introduction thread, so hey guys.

[ScioPath]

Can someone provide me a source to where he has said he doesn't like JLB's voice?

Way before all this other shit happened. I think Mike said something about James no longer being 'the voice of DT' and that he no longer imagines his voice when he writes lyrics for the band.

[Perpetual Change]

I'm not sure what he said exactly, but that's definitely not it.

[ScioPath]

Oh, well. I'm constantly wrong.

[Perpetual Change]

I just think it was more along the lines of "James isn't always my cup of tea, but he's the voice of DT, which is all that matters."

[TAC]

In my opinion MP did what he needed to do..admit to taking it out of context and to publicly apologize to James. All the other crap..like I said I'm giving him a pass on.

I can understand that he'd be sad, but to me, if it was as bad or as tough a working relationship.. and he decided that he couldn't continue, don't you think he be more "relieved" than anything else. He doesn't come across as someone who's had this great weight lifted on his shoulders, but rather as somone who has had one placed...

[Progmetty]

My first time commenting on anything since MP left.
I think everyone is entitled to some stupid comments after a big decision like this, both from DT and from MP side.
The problem being the involvement of the fans on the internet, I feel a lot of the fans are having way too much entertainment with all the drama even if they act like what's happening is awful.
Even though it's a completely different scenario but I'd recall the time when Newsted left Metallica and a couple years later when they were recording St. Anger he had a couple bad comments about them -also on Blabbermouth- and Lars responded by making fun of Jason on a few occasions on Metallica's JumpInTheStudio  videos they had going while recording, the whole thing was over and quickly forgotten because neither side spoke to the fans, fans were nothing but spectators.
This close contact with fans is never good, I think 90% of the rage that drives Mike to act this way is fueled by the door he leaves open by having the fans on his forums feel he's reading -and might respond to- everything they talk about.
I feel bad for the man cause he had to respond politely to that post, it almost feels like he thinks he's slipping and falling from grace big time and he doesn't deserve that.
I also can't help but think that Petrucci should step in somehow, call Mike and have a mutual agreement about a post that dismisses any bad blood.
Maybe all this could have been avoided if DT kept the official forums and didn't have MP's forums as the closest thing to an official forum DT had, this generated too much of the confusion and the topics Mike should have been reading on his own forums like who's replace him, etc.

[Zydar]

My first time commenting on anything since MP left.
I think everyone is entitled to some stupid comments after a big decision like this, both from DT and from MP side.
The problem being the involvement of the fans on the internet, I feel a lot of the fans are having way too much entertainment with all the drama even if they act like what's happening is awful.
Even though it's a completely different scenario but I'd recall the time when Newsted left Metallica and a couple years later when they were recording St. Anger he had a couple bad comments about them -also on Blabbermouth- and Lars responded by making fun of Jason on a few occasions on Metallica's JumpInTheStudio  videos they had going while recording, the whole thing was over and quickly forgotten because neither side spoke to the fans, fans were nothing but spectators.
This close contact with fans is never good, I think 90% of the rage that drives Mike to act this way is fueled by the door he leaves open by having the fans on his forums feel he's reading -and might respond to- everything they talk about.
I feel bad for the man cause he had to respond politely to that post, it almost feels like he thinks he's slipping and falling from grace big time and he doesn't deserve that.
I also can't help but think that Petrucci should step in somehow, call Mike and have a mutual agreement about a post that dismisses any bad blood.
Maybe all this could have been avoided if DT kept the official forums and didn't have MP's forums as the closest thing to an official forum DT had, this generated too much of the confusion and the topics Mike should have been reading on his own forums like who's replace him, etc.

I would like to see this, I think JP could calm things down by doing this.

[TAC]

I also can't help but think that Petrucci should step in somehow, call Mike and have a mutual agreement about a post that dismisses any bad blood.

At first I thought..sure..but MP's original statement and the Band's original release has already provided this. MP left with his dignity, and I for one feel that there was more at play here than just MP "stepping aside". I believe that they were willing to give him that "out".
What happens now is in MP's control, and JP shouldn't have to be there everytime MP sets himself on fire.

[Perpetual Change]

Off topic:

I feel bad for the man

Why do people constantly refer to Mike as "the man." Especially on MP.com when they're defending him about something? I'm sorry, it's just so funny recounting all the times I've read

"The man just needs..." "Give the man a break..." "The man has spoke..." "The man himself said..." "You can't blame the man for...." "A man can feel," etc.

People refer to Mike Portnoy like old-fogeys refer to their long-term business partners. "Bring the man a cigar!"

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Rich, there is no way that open letter was "good" if by "good" you mean "good apology".

Any apology consisting of the lines highlighted by Orcus above is not a good one. It actually reminds me of a Curb Your Enthusiasm episode.

His post covered a lot of different stuff. Regarding the misunderstanding, he apologised for it. If you want to not believe it, fine, but don't go trying to turn everyone else cynical as well.

An apology is only good when the person apologizing recognizes what they did wrong, feels genuinely bad about it and then says that they are sorry.

In his apology, Portnoy explicitly says that he does not know what he did wrong and that he is not even sure who he owes the apology to.

If a friend came up to me and said,

"Apparently I'm supposed to apologize to someone. Not sure who, but I'm guessing it's you. Sorry for what I did, even though honestly I'm not sure what I did wrong"

I wouldn't take the apology seriously.

I understand Portnoy covered lots of other stuff. But as far as the JLB issue goes, his letter was weak.

Oh, and, I don't appreciate being called cynical or trying to turn everyone cynical. It says I am being somehow unreasonable and am not meant to be taken seriously.

[rumborak]

I also can't help but think that Petrucci should step in somehow, call Mike and have a mutual agreement about a post that dismisses any bad blood.

At first I thought..sure..but MP's original statement and the Band's original release has already provided this. MP left with his dignity, and I for one feel that there was more at play here than just MP "stepping aside". I believe that they were willing to give him that "out".
What happens now is in MP's control, and JP shouldn't have to be there everytime MP sets himself on fire.

Absolutely. Only a few days ago, the waves had essentially settled about this whole thing, including most of the speculation about the exact break-up. And both sides came out pretty well I would say. This whole shit storm is of MP's making (I did not interpret James' interview in any other way than positive-looking-forward), and it's really not JP's job to come to the rescue every time MP "sets himself on fire" (love that analogy ).
And in fact, if JP is smart, he should not enter this whole thing. MP is currently unpredictable in what he does, and there is very little to gain to JP and the rest of the gang. They look great in the eye of the public, and if MP is not smart enough to tend to his public perception well, that's his problem.

rumborak

[ReaPsTA]

Interesting thing - Read the lyrics of Constant Motion in the context of all this.

[Zook]

What's wrong with removing MP related info on DT.net? They have to keep things up to date.

[rumborak]

Honestly, I think it's because MP still can't believe with how little fanfare this whole thing went down. DT is looking forward with their own endeavors, and everybody returned to business as usual. In the end, Mike made the same experience that thousands of people who quit their job have made. You think without you the place will crash and burn, and then you find out that it's doing just fine without you.

rumborak

[ReaPsTA]

Honestly, I think it's because MP still can't believe with how little fanfare this whole thing went down. DT is looking forward with their own endeavors, and everybody returned to business as usual. In the end, Mike made the same experience that thousands of people who quit their job have made. You think without you the place will crash and burn, and then you find out that it's doing just fine without you.

rumborak

In fairness, the other members of DT defied the expectations of pretty much everyone and moved in immediately to fill the PR gap.

[Chino]

Honestly, I think it's because MP still can't believe with how little fanfare this whole thing went down. DT is looking forward with their own endeavors, and everybody returned to business as usual. In the end, Mike made the same experience that thousands of people who quit their job have made. You think without you the place will crash and burn, and then you find out that it's doing just fine without you.

rumborak

In fairness, the other members of DT defied the expectations of pretty much everyone

But they pretty much all stated the following day that they were excited for the future. Most people still hadn't even heard by then.

[rumborak]

I don't know, I didn't have too much doubt they would fill the gap. JLB, JP and JR are very vocal and thoughtful people when asked. When asked. MP had decided to make himself the face of DT, so the others just stood behind that screen.
And let's face it, every band on this planet manages to have a half-decent public face, and that includes bands with completely retarded members. So, DT with 3 remaining vocal members was clearly not going to have an issue. I think it's just that MP fell into the trap of doing something for such a long time that he fooled himself into thinking he's the only one who can do it. Again, you see that stuff everywhere in the work place.

rumborak

[Dublagent66]

How's that saying go?  An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure?  If so, MP is gonna need about a couple of tons!  Being in a band is a TEAM effort.  I've been there and done it.  Not only in a band, but in sports and my occupation as well.  One thing that a TEAM player never does, is imposed their will on the other players (or give them an ultimatum).  It doesn't work that way.  Players come and go, and teams move on all the time.  The strength of the whole depends on the contributions of its players.  I commend Dream Theater for not being willing to compromise the strength of the TEAM.

As far as an apology goes from MP, that's a matter of interpretation.  What is the apology addressing?  Is it for one's actions after the fact?  If I was in that position, I would have to go back to the source of how this all started first.  I get the impression that MP thought he was indispensable due to his demanding role in the band's activities.  That being said, he probably also thought of himself as the leader and that's fine. A lot of people did.  But, a true leader of a TEAM draws upon the other players for its strength and balance.  A leader never tries to take ALL of the responsibility.  Apologizing for that would've been a good place to start.

Ultimately, none of us knows all the details surrounding this situation.  All we can do is try to formulate our own interpretations as the information allows.  In my mind, this mess could've been easily avoided if the proper steps (no pun intended) had been taken, regardless of the reason why.  I really do hope that MP learns a valuable lesson from this because I really like him a lot, flaws and all.

[KevShmev]

An apology is only good when the person apologizing recognizes what they did wrong, feels genuinely bad about it and then says that they are sorry.

In his apology, Portnoy explicitly says that he does not know what he did wrong and that he is not even sure who he owes the apology to.

If a friend came up to me and said,

"Apparently I'm supposed to apologize to someone. Not sure who, but I'm guessing it's you. Sorry for what I did, even though honestly I'm not sure what I did wrong"

I wouldn't take the apology seriously.

I understand Portnoy covered lots of other stuff. But as far as the JLB issue goes, his letter was weak.

Oh, and, I don't appreciate being called cynical or trying to turn everyone cynical. It says I am being somehow unreasonable and am not meant to be taken seriously.

*golf clap*

And I totally agree about the cynical crack that ariich has pulled out a few times.  That would be like me or you saying, "Well, some of us aren't so gullible as to believe that fake apology."  There is a way of disagreeing without being condescending.

What's wrong with removing MP related info on DT.net? They have to keep things up to date.

Itchy actually posted at mp.com yesterday and said he did that, and that the band had nothing to do with the moving of Portnoy's projects at dt.net, so, yeah.

[ariich]

And I totally agree about the cynical crack that ariich has pulled out a few times.  That would be like me or you saying, "Well, some of us aren't so gullible as to believe that fake apology."

Well yeah, that's pretty much what a number of people have been doing. You yourself Kev used the "Are you honestly saying..." line on me.

@TOX: Again, I'm wondering whether you read the mp.com posts in question, or if you're just going by a couple of single sentence quotes in here. MP recognised that he made a mistake in jumping to conclusions, which is why he apologised. The "I don't know what I did wrong" was in reference to other aspects. I feel like we're arguing over two completely different things here.

The point is, we can disagree with whether the apology was a good one or not, but I don't think most people who, like me, disagree with the notion that it was a *real* apology¹ are being cynical.

I don't get it. I'm not disagreeing that it wasn't a very good apology; as I have said at least twice, he obviously isn't very good at apologies and doesn't feel comfortable with them, which fits in with the fact that I can't remember him ever apologising for his actions in the past. But you are insisting that it's not a real apology, which I think is wrong, and very unfair on him.

It's just not fair to act like Mike's response wasn't questionable at the very least. If anything, construing Mike's post as a "real apology" requires just as much "optimism" as construing it as more self-serving banter from Mike requires some "cynicism."

Mike has always been very open and genuine with his internet posting. Too much so on occasions, in my opinion. So I'm not sure why we should suddenly all start assuming that he's being deceitful. I'm basing my opinions not on optimism but on prior experience coupled with the things we know for certain.

¹A real apology, at least to James, who it should have been directed to, rather than the fans-- who where angry at Mike for throwing James under like that, since he apparently still doesn't 'get what he did wrong.'

The apology was directed at James, and I'm sure if and when he gets the chance to do it privately, he will do so too.

[rumborak]

The thing that really didn't sit well with me was

I do agree there as well....and it's probably nobody's business, but after reading that Blabbermouth headline, I emailed all 4 guys and none of them ever responded....
(and they still havent...)
I would've loved to have kept it private and hoped they would've responded when I reached out to them all, but they never did.....but then again, that's between us, so that's the last I will comment on that...

There's just so many things wrong with that passage (especially the bolded parts), I don't even know where to start.

rumborak

[Seventh Son]

And I totally agree about the cynical crack that ariich has pulled out a few times.  That would be like me or you saying, "Well, some of us aren't so gullible as to believe that fake apology."

Well yeah, that's pretty much what a number of people have been doing. You yourself Kev used the "Are you honestly saying..." line on me.

@TOX: Again, I'm wondering whether you read the mp.com posts in question, or if you're just going by a couple of single sentence quotes in here. MP recognised that he made a mistake in jumping to conclusions, which is why he apologised. The "I don't know what I did wrong" was in reference to other aspects. I feel like we're arguing over two completely different things here.

The point is, we can disagree with whether the apology was a good one or not, but I don't think most people who, like me, disagree with the notion that it was a *real* apology¹ are being cynical.

I don't get it. I'm not disagreeing that it wasn't a very good apology; as I have said at least twice, he obviously isn't very good at apologies and doesn't feel comfortable with them, which fits in with the fact that I can't remember him ever apologising for his actions in the past. But you are insisting that it's not a real apology, which I think is wrong, and very unfair on him.

It's just not fair to act like Mike's response wasn't questionable at the very least. If anything, construing Mike's post as a "real apology" requires just as much "optimism" as construing it as more self-serving banter from Mike requires some "cynicism."

Mike has always been very open and genuine with his internet posting. Too much so on occasions, in my opinion. So I'm not sure why we should suddenly all start assuming that he's being deceitful. I'm basing my opinions not on optimism but on prior experience coupled with the things we know for certain.

¹A real apology, at least to James, who it should have been directed to, rather than the fans-- who where angry at Mike for throwing James under like that, since he apparently still doesn't 'get what he did wrong.'
[/quote]The apology was directed at James, and I'm sure if and when he gets the chance to do it privately, he will do so too.
[/quote]


1. Growing up as a kid, if you were expected to apologize, it had to be sincere. If it wasn't, then it wasn't an apology, plain and simple. And you were likely to continue being forced to apologize until everyone was convinced that you were sorry. And not a pathetic, sniveling kind of sorry either. You really did have feel sorry for what you had done. You really had to want the other person's forgiveness even if you had to beg for it. Otherwise, you were making pathetic excuses as far as my parents were concerned. Maybe its not the nicest way to go about things, but when I think about, I kind of see Mike in the same light. So no, I'm not convinced Mike is really apologizing in the same sense that a child being forced to apologize by their parents may believe that they are sorry, but the parents aren't convinced. I realize not everyone grew up this way   But its a thought, and I'm sure its something to do with why some people are convinced with his apology and others were not.

2. I was never good at apologies either rich. I'm still not. Didn't excuse me from making very bad ones as a child and expecting everyone around me to believe it. My parents only viewed "I"m bad at making apologies" as a really bad excuse and was not valid. It didn't matter how good or bad you were at making them, you were expected to make an apology. And a damn good one at that.

3. I'm pretty sure this is just a product of my childhood, but if my parents looked at that apology they'd have some words for him that I'd probably get banned for repeating here  . So I do have a very hard time accepting Mike's apology as truly sincere. I don't doubt he thinks it is sincere, not at all. I just can't help but feel he could make it more apparent that he truly feels saddened for his comment against James. Because from what I've seen from his statements, I get the a very strong impression that he doesn't feel that bad for what he said, he's sorry about the backlash he's received. That's not to say he doesn't truly feel bad, but going by his statements alone, he doesn't give that impression at all.

And for the record, the backlash against Mike that he's gotten is the same backlash I'd expect from my parents if I pulled shit like this  

[ariich]

The thing that really didn't sit well with me was

I do agree there as well....and it's probably nobody's business, but after reading that Blabbermouth headline, I emailed all 4 guys and none of them ever responded....
(and they still havent...)
I would've loved to have kept it private and hoped they would've responded when I reached out to them all, but they never did.....but then again, that's between us, so that's the last I will comment on that...

There's just so many things wrong with that passage, I don't even know where to start.

rumborak

Yeah that bit didn't sit very well with me either, seems extremely impatient of him. Unless quite a bit of time passed, but if that was the case then he surely had time to read/listen to the full interview.

[orcus116]