Dream Theater's New Producer: John Petrucci

[TAC]

Just in case anyone missed it James said in an interview they're letting JP produce the album.

I'm glad that question was asked.

[MykeHavoc]

To clarify, James said that JP is totally capable of doing the job alone, but he didn't rule out an outside producer. JP himself said in his initial spring of Q&A's that he's not apposed to the idea and that we'll just have to wait and see what route they go. Remember, JP was a lot more open to that sort of thing and didn't seem to get nearly as upset over it as Mike did.
I would assume that financially it would be smarter to let JP do it solo, or maybe bring in Jordan too. But artistically, it wouldn't be a bad move. And going on 14 years with only minor suggestions from engineers might mean something. Not sure what JP's honest opinions on the last 2 records are, but I feel they are a step down in certain respects and feel a bit false at times. I am almost certain that by bringing in somebody, this would change.  I hate to say it, but get Prater back in there. Recapture some of the magic from I&W and ACOS. Mike and Kevin (and to a degree James) seemed to be the ones with issues, or him having issues with them. I don't remember JP or JMX having any real issues with him. And it would be a first for him and Jordan. I don't know, just an idea.

[Vivace]

I think Shirley would still be a good choice. FII is still one of the best sounding albums and MP and JP have already proven they can throw out a clipped album (SC).

[ReaPsTA]

Why would anyone say bring back Prater? There's a strong mutual loathing between him and DT. How are they supposed to work together?

[MykeHavoc]

Why would anyone say bring back Prater? There's a strong mutual loathing between him and DT. How are they supposed to work together?

Because some of the best art of all time has risen from such scenarios. Case in point, Images & Words and A Change of Seasons.

I think Shirley would still be a good choice. FII is still one of the best sounding albums and MP and JP have already proven they can throw out a clipped album (SC).

I don't know, I like Kevin, but I'm not to keen on him. I'd actually prefer if Paul Northfield got to move on up to co-producer. That's actually my guess, as he'll likely engineer the record anyway, so I imagine he'd simply have more input.

[Perpetual Change]

Jens Borgen

[ariich]

Just in case anyone missed it James said in an interview they're letting JP produce the album.

No he didn't.

[hefdaddy42]

Just in case anyone missed it James said in an interview they're letting JP produce the album.

No he didn't.

This.

[orcus116]

Why would anyone say bring back Prater? There's a strong mutual loathing between him and DT. How are they supposed to work together?

Because some of the best art of all time has risen from such scenarios. Case in point, Images & Words and A Change of Seasons.

This. Plus wasn't it Portnoy that had the main beef with Prater?

[PlaysLikeMyung]

Just in case anyone missed it James said in an interview they're letting JP produce the album.

No he didn't.

This.

Actually, he pretty much did. James said that they'd all given JP the nod to produce, saying he's 'definitely able' and the like.

However, they haven't ruled out an outside producer at this point, as they're still discussing all the options

[Perpetual Change]

Here's a newflash guys:

David Prater isn't, nor has he ever been, a great producer. The production of Images and Words isn't really that great, either, and A Change of Seasons, simply put, sounds terrible. It has no punch. I really think people's nostalgia for those albums get in their way of accurately accessing them.

Plus, the vague promise that DT could possibly go back to the Images and Words style, even with someone like Prater at the helm, is just unrealistic. I wouldn't want Prater producing the album: not because I don't think he can do it or because I don't want him to challenge the band (lord knows they could use someone challenging them from time to time) but because, simply put, he's not the best guy for the job. Nor would I even say that he's a good guy for the job.

My personal pick for a producer is Jens Borgen. He's a relatively new guy, but he's already proved to me to be more than apt.

For those of you who don't know, he co-Produced Opeth's Watershed and Ghost Reveries. He also mixed those albums, James Labrie's new album, Symphony X's Paradise Lost and both of Kataonia's last records. No one I've heard does a better job at getting an awesome "modern heavy" sound than him.

He comes from the newer school, so if JP were playing the primary producer I'm sure someone like Jens Borgen could handle the technical aspects while giving the band some ideas about how to "be contemporary" without sounding like they're trying to hard.

I think, at this point, it's unlikely that DT would hire a full time creative-producer. It just doesn't make sense for them. Even if some fans complain, their albums are selling better than ever. It doesn't make sense for them to pay extra to have someone give them ideas when (at least) the numbers say they don't need to (and I agree that, for the most part, they don't). Best case scenario is someone with more of a "new school" prog perspective like Jens comes into do mixing and mastering and gives minor suggestions when he can (like, that RORORORO is really dumb guys).

[faizoff]

Just in case anyone missed it James said in an interview they're letting JP produce the album.

No he didn't.

This.

Actually, he pretty much did. James said that they'd all given JP the nod to produce, saying he's 'definitely able' and the like.

However, they haven't ruled out an outside producer at this point, as they're still discussing all the options

I guess I should've worded it that way. There may still be some wiggle room for an outside producer. But my take from what he said was as things stand now JP is going to produce the album.

[orcus116]

I think, at this point, it's unlikely that DT would hire a full time creative-producer. It just doesn't make sense for them. Even if some fans complain, their albums are selling better than ever. It doesn't make sense for them to pay extra to have someone give them ideas when (at least) the numbers say they don't need to (and I agree that, for the most part, they don't). Best case scenario is someone with more of a "new school" prog perspective like Jens comes into do mixing and mastering and gives minor suggestions when he can (like, that RORORORO is really dumb guys).

Who gives a shit about the numbers? It's no secret their last few albums have grown increasingly stale stylistically and they haven't given any indication it's going to change, though with Portnoy leaving who knows how that'll end up. I know there is a lot of people that love the new stuff for whatever reason but there is still a fair number of people who agree that what those albums need disparately is some hardcore editing.

[Perpetual Change]

Who gives a shit about the numbers?

Obviously they do. They're not gonna pay someone to come in and give them a new creative perspective when the last album was generally hailed as being a significant improvement over the last three and is the best selling to date (I think). Bands just don't DO that are the point in their careers DT are at. Even if Black Clouds sucked from a critical and financial perspective, they wouldn't do it.

It's no secret their last few albums have grown increasingly stale stylistically

See though, even if I agree with you (which I don't really), it's kinda hard getting that across when the albums keeps selling more and more. How do you justifying hiring another hand in the studio when that's the case? I mean, and even if that weren't the case, critical and fan reactions to BC&SL were soo much better than the last 3 albums. BC&SL was really the first album since SDOIT that didn't get torn a new one by 1/3rd of the fans as soon as it came out.

[orcus116]

I partially believe it didn't get ripped apart merely because it was an improvement over its predecessor (which wasn't hard to do) so any step in a better direction is somewhat of a sigh of relief. I really can't figure out why the damn thing sold so well and it's great for DT and the fact that their exposure has blown up but as long as they keep churning out the same type of record I'm gonna stay adamant in saying a new perspective is desperately needed. Makes me curious as to what the mindset behind something like Six Degrees was because they were essentially in the same situation (same guys, self produced) and that album has much more staying power and freshness to it.

[robwebster]

I think, at this point, it's unlikely that DT would hire a full time creative-producer. It just doesn't make sense for them. Even if some fans complain, their albums are selling better than ever. It doesn't make sense for them to pay extra to have someone give them ideas when (at least) the numbers say they don't need to (and I agree that, for the most part, they don't). Best case scenario is someone with more of a "new school" prog perspective like Jens comes into do mixing and mastering and gives minor suggestions when he can (like, that RORORORO is really dumb guys).

Who gives a shit about the numbers?

Er - everyone?

There's no such thing as a barometer of quality. It doesn't exist. You either like something or you don't. You can argue until the cows come home, but nobody can ever objectively tell you that X is good or that Y is bad. It's impossible.

So! Safe in the knowledge that I don't actually own a barometer of quality, but not dissuaded from finding out how well the band are doing, I'm going to have to find a substitute.

Option 1.
Sales figures. Now, the flaw here is fairly obvious, as sales are based on awareness. Make 60,000,000 people aware of Katy Perry's music, and even if only 1% of them can so much as stand the song she's still topped the singles chart. But, accepting this flaw, Dream Theater - on an increasing, but still fairly puny tide of publicity - have been climbing up the chart at an alarming rate, album upon album. Keep in mind that the era following Images and Words marked the height of their publicity, and yet Awake's sales were disappointing at best. Again, this could be because the record label didn't publicise Awake, or that the appetites of the public have changed, but by Flawed Measure 1, Dream Theater are doing better than ever.

Option 2.
Critical acclaim. Music critics know a fair bit about music. It's their job. Which doesn't mean that what they say goes, not by a long shot - their ideas are no more valid than ours, and landing a job as a journo is two parts luck at the best of times - but have you seen their reviews lately? Reactions to Images and Words were fairly mixed, in spite of garnering a hefty fanbase on its coat-tails. I don't have Lifting Shadows to hand, at the moment, but Awake was, critically, something of a flop. Falling Into Infinity didn't buck the trend. Systematic Chaos and BCSL both received thoroughly impressive ratings across the board, and mark a fairly dramatic upswing. By Flawed Measure 2, Dream Theater are doing better than ever.

Option 3.
Fans. Fans are the most biased people of all, as they bring their prejudices to the table. It's where the disappointed go to moan - and more than anyone else, the fans have preconceptions as to what a Dream Theater album should sound like, they have a wishlist that goes on for ages, and they can spends months upon months going in circles, discussing exactly what DT are doing wrong with their careers. The new stuff always does get a fairly bad rap in any fanbase, too. It'll either be too similar to what preceded, or too different. This is because fans are fans of the old stuff - it's already their favourites. When Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence was released, Misunderstood had a stupid ending and The Great Debate was long and droney and Disappear couldn't hold a candle to Space-dye Vest, and it was the beginning of the end. An old album is history, and if you're a fan you've already survived that transition. A new album is dangerous and must be stopped. By Flawed Measure 3, Dream Theater aren't doing any better than ever, but that's kind of how fandom's wired. Name a single band whose latest album is hailed as a masterpiece! Name a band whose latest album hasn't brought a selection of volatile opinions into the mix. And now name any other band of a vintage even approaching Dream Theater's who's still churning out fan favourites on a regular basis? The Count of Tuscany is much loved. By Flawed Measure 3, DT ain't quite cutting the mustard, but they're beating the shit out of any other band you could name.

They're selling better. They're more acclaimed than ever. The fans, by and large, are fairly warm to BCSL. The best way to measure the success of a band is to total them all up. Lots of shit stuff is popular. Lots of well-acclaimed stuff is alienating. Dream Theater are somehow combining prestige with popularity, and still pleasing the fanbase, by and large.

I'm sorry you're not entirely satisfied with what the band are churning out, but in such a subjective medium there are plenty of good reasons to add up the numbers. I give a shit about them. And, in fairness, they're striking a lot of home runs.

[Perpetual Change]

Yeah, I think that pretty much covers it all.

[Shadow2222]

Rob, you never fail to have an intelligent post when needed. 

[orcus116]

I was under the impression the reviews for both Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds were mixed with maybe BC receiving slightly more positive ones. Anyone know of a site that collects music reviews?

Metacritic seems to have at least 6 reviews clocking in at a 68 for Black Clouds:

https://www.metacritic.com/music/black-clouds-silver-linings

[robwebster]

I was under the impression the reviews for both Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds were mixed with maybe BC receiving slightly more positive ones.

Possibly on the internet, but publicationwise it's been fairly glowing - or at least, as far as I can tell. I've been going from the anecdotal information collected in Lifting Shadows (which isn't entirely unbiased) combined with my own scouting for interviews whenever I get excited about an album (also not entirely unbiased). I've never seen a negative review published.

Don't know of a music review site. Metacritic's the closest, but it's only got any records for BCSL. Which has got unanimously positive reviews. [EDIT: Ah! I see it considers four of them mixed. I'm going by absolutes. + or -.]

[faizoff]

Rob that's the most sane and brilliant write up I've seen on this endless battle of opinions of each DT album.

While I personally don't relate much to 8V and SC I still bought them and play them and bought their accompanying DVDs. I still support the band no matter how their output appeals to me. With every progressing album reaching to a wider audience and making new fans and getting DT more success I couldnt be more happier for the guys.

[robwebster]

Rob that's the most sane and brilliant write up I've seen on this endless battle of opinions of each DT album.

Thank you! I wasn't sure if I drifted into crusade territory. I'll admit that I'm a little biased.

I just think fandom's gotta be taken with a pinch of salt, 'cause it mutates so slowly. Awake was one of the most alienating albums of their career, and completely interrupted their streak of success - as I think Derek Oliver said in Lifting Shadows, it lacked a really obvious punch in the gut. There's no obviously fantastic song. And yet look at it now! All shiny and popular.

A fan who likes the band that released When Dream and Day Unite and Images & Words isn't necessarily going to like Awake. Then they'll go away. In their droves, possibly.

Then, a few years later, the new fans who come along will be fans of that band that released WDADU, IAW, Awake, A Change of Seasons and Falling Into Infinity. There aren't many people hanging around who were disillusioned by FII, because they stopped hanging around. The ones who replaced them will have heard FII before they ever decided to post on a board, and while the opinions will be diverse, they can't have been too put off.

So, on that basis, you've kind of got to look at the numbers. Fans are always behind the times. Actually, I tend to believe that if there's not at least a small faction of fans who like the earlier stuff a lot more, you probably don't have much of a career. Good new music should have a sneaky little hatedom.



Also, I'm aware that I'm ragging on fandom a lot, so I feel like I should even it out. Another flaw in evaluating an album based on its reviews is that critical journalists have an agenda to push. They want to look like they're on the pulse - Q don't want their journalists to have the same taste in music as your granddad, so if something's building a bit of a fanbase the reviewers are more likely to play it safe and go "yeah! those Dream Theater guys. pretty good, eh?" It's a self-perpetuating phenomenon. Not to mention that they've got x number of albums to get through, and y number of hours in the day. They can't spend years upon years dissecting each album - they don't get a chance to inhabit the album, and really embrace its virtues and flaws. There's no perfect barometer of success. Far from it. I think the best thing you can do is look at the sales, look at the reviews, look at the word of mouth, and then have a giggle at the fans as they get in a tizz, before nodding along with the saner ones.

Bah! You prompted me to squeeze a bit more out of the tube. I like the sound of my own voice way too much. Ah well, it's a while since I made a post of any real substance.

[hefdaddy42]

Obviously they do. They're not gonna pay someone to come in and give them a new creative perspective when the last album was generally hailed as being a significant improvement over the last three and is the best selling to date (I think).

It MAY have been the best selling of the last three, but their biggest seller ever is Images & Words.

[faizoff]

Agreed again Rob, the barometer of success line particularly rings true.

[2Timer]

Thomas Bodin would be an interesting and possible pretty cool choice.

[MajorMatt]

Jens Borgen did a great job on JLB's solo album, I think it would be interesting to see what he could do with DT.

He gets my vote, although I wouldn't be against Kevin Shirley making a return.

Matt

[emindead]

https://www.classicrockmagazine.com/news/dream-theater-have-a-new-drummer-but-theyre-not-saying-who-it-is/

Can you divulge who will produce? With Mike now gone, will you handle things alone?

“I’m gonna continue as the producer, yeah. We talked about it, and it’s a passion of mine so I will continue with the reins. Paul Northfield, who has done the last two records, will engineer with us. The only thing different is that it will be mixed by somebody else in order to gain a bit of outside perspective.”

So I guess this is it.

Not that excited about this, tbh.

/Thread

[robwebster]

"I'm gonna continue as the producer, yeah. We talked about it, and it's a passion of mine so I will continue with the reins. Paul Northfield, who has done the last two records, will engineer with us. The only thing different is that it will be mixed by somebody else in order to gain a bit of outside perspective."

So I guess this is it.

Not that excited about this, tbh.

Ahh! I dunno. I still reckon it'll be interesting. Maybe not as fascinatingly different as it could've been, but it'll be nice to see how the band changes under the sole leadership of The Trooch.

[Metabog]

Andy. Sneap.

[Bertielee]

To clarify, James said that JP is totally capable of doing the job alone, but he didn't rule out an outside producer. JP himself said in his initial spring of Q&A's that he's not apposed to the idea and that we'll just have to wait and see what route they go. Remember, JP was a lot more open to that sort of thing and didn't seem to get nearly as upset over it as Mike did.
I would assume that financially it would be smarter to let JP do it solo, or maybe bring in Jordan too. But artistically, it wouldn't be a bad move. And going on 14 years with only minor suggestions from engineers might mean something. Not sure what JP's honest opinions on the last 2 records are, but I feel they are a step down in certain respects and feel a bit false at times. I am almost certain that by bringing in somebody, this would change.  I hate to say it, but get Prater back in there. Recapture some of the magic from I&W and ACOS. Mike and Kevin (and to a degree James) seemed to be the ones with issues, or him having issues with them. I don't remember JP or JMX having any real issues with him. And it would be a first for him and Jordan. I don't know, just an idea.

And you don't see bringing back Prater as a problem because he had something against JLB only? Look, JLB has been told to sing what others wanted on the last 3 albums at least, the last one being the worst for him (If I remember it well, he didn't come into the studio before recording his vocals). Can you just imagine for a second he would go through all that again now MP is gone (if that's what happened with Prater anyway)? Just listen to SI again and hear what he can do when free to do what he wants to.
Now, I'm not saying that JP won't tell him to sing some things he wants to hear, but I don't want JLB to leave because someone cocky comes back to produce.

B.Lee

[Perpetual Change]

Guys, Prater isn't coming back, and it's not like he was actually that good anyway.

[Bertielee]

Guys, Prater isn't coming back, and it's not like he was actually that good anyway.

You're right, he's not that good (not good in my books for that matter).

B.Lee

[sneakyblueberry]

Andy. Sneap.

No. 

That is all.

[ddtonfire]

Jem Godfrey!!!!

[Jamesman42]

Jem Godfrey!!!!

Best post in thread.