Does The Shattered Fortress really need to come full circle?

[FlashCE]

It makes no sense. Is Mike an alcoholic again? I don't see a reason why they needed to bring TGP's riff back in the end. I understand doing it for Octavarium since that's the concept of the album, but using it in TSF kinda makes it seem like an amateur band wanting to be like their favourite band and so the band decides to do what their fave band has done, for the heck of it (or to be prog and deep or whatever).

If anyone wants to check out a good usage of the full circle or reprisal theme, check out Pain of Salvation's BE album. The way they use it makes sense lyrically and as part of the story.

Maybe I'm missing out on something related to AA? Do you need to "repractise" step 1 after step 12? If so that'd make sense and actually be kinda cool. 

[Adami]

It was just a cool musical idea. That's all.

[GuineaPig]

I think a lot of the reprises in TSF sounded forced, and it would have been a better song if it had not been hell bent on rehashing every riff of the previous 4 songs.

[Quadrochosis]

I think a lot of the reprises in TSF sounded forced, and it would have been a better song if it had not been hell bent on rehashing every riff of the previous 4 songs.

This. The AA Suite is overrated anyway. Seriously, how could ANYONE sit through the entire thing live? I would probably fall asleep, and in my opinion it would be a massive waste of almost an entire Evening With set. I pray they decide to NOT play the entire Suite in a live setting.

[ZBomber]

It wouldnt bore me, I just think it doesn't flow well at all. TGP, ROAE, and parts of TDS would be cool to see though.

[Sigz]

They're not my favorite DT songs, but I think live it would be fucking awesome.

[AwakeFromOctavarium]

blah blah blah

If anyone wants to check out a good usage of the full circle or reprisal theme, check out Pain of Salvation's BE album. The way they use it makes sense lyrically and as part of the story.

blah blah blah

OK!

[kirbywelch92]

I don't see a reason why they needed to bring TGP's riff back in the end.

Cuz it's

That's pretty much it.

[The Letter M]

It makes no sense. Is Mike an alcoholic again? I don't see a reason why they needed to bring TGP's riff back in the end. I understand doing it for Octavarium since that's the concept of the album, but using it in TSF kinda makes it seem like an amateur band wanting to be like their favourite band and so the band decides to do what their fave band has done, for the heck of it (or to be prog and deep or whatever).

If anyone wants to check out a good usage of the full circle or reprisal theme, check out Pain of Salvation's BE album. The way they use it makes sense lyrically and as part of the story.

Maybe I'm missing out on something related to AA? Do you need to "repractise" step 1 after step 12? If so that'd make sense and actually be kinda cool. 

To me, reprising the opening (and subsequently the closing) of Step I is indicative of the person who has just finished the 12 steps helping others who are in need of help. The final step is named "Responsible", in which the person who just went through all the steps now takes responsibility to help others - "I am responsible / When anyone, anywhere  / Reaches out for help / I want my hand to be there". Playing that section again shows that this person is seeking out to help those who are just beginning their journey through the 12 steps and that, while you may finish these steps, they continue through you by helping others who are going through those steps themselves, and when they're done, they will do the same. It's an endless cycle that is passed along.

It's not so much the "full circle" thing, but rather that the cycle itself repeats linearly, not in a closed way.

-Marc.

[axeman90210]

all I know is that the TROAE drum reprise at the end totally ruins what is otherwse an awesome and symmetric way to close the 12 Step Suite.

[Adami]

all I know is that the TROAE drum reprise at the end totally ruins what is otherwse an awesome and symmetric way to close the 12 Step Suite.

I agree, well....it doesn't ruin it, but it certainly isn't necessary.

[orcus116]

I think a lot of the reprises in TSF sounded forced, and it would have been a better song if it had not been hell bent on rehashing every riff of the previous 4 songs.

Definitely. Some of the newer material sounded cool but it never got fleshed out because of the constant barrage of rehashed stuff.

[RoeDent]

To me, reprising the opening (and subsequently the closing) of Step I is indicative of the person who has just finished the 12 steps helping others who are in need of help. The final step is named "Responsible", in which the person who just went through all the steps now takes responsibility to help others - "I am responsible / When anyone, anywhere  / Reaches out for help / I want my hand to be there". Playing that section again shows that this person is seeking out to help those who are just beginning their journey through the 12 steps and that, while you may finish these steps, they continue through you by helping others who are going through those steps themselves, and when they're done, they will do the same. It's an endless cycle that is passed along.

It's not so much the "full circle" thing, but rather that the cycle itself repeats linearly, not in a closed way.

-Marc.

Good way to think of it.

[veronica]

Also, Mike actually got his 10-year coin from AA the other day! 10 years sober, way to go

I'm not saying anything about the music, what I mean has probably already been said

[Darkes7]

To me, reprising the opening (and subsequently the closing) of Step I is indicative of the person who has just finished the 12 steps helping others who are in need of help. The final step is named "Responsible", in which the person who just went through all the steps now takes responsibility to help others - "I am responsible / When anyone, anywhere  / Reaches out for help / I want my hand to be there". Playing that section again shows that this person is seeking out to help those who are just beginning their journey through the 12 steps and that, while you may finish these steps, they continue through you by helping others who are going through those steps themselves, and when they're done, they will do the same. It's an endless cycle that is passed along.

It's not so much the "full circle" thing, but rather that the cycle itself repeats linearly, not in a closed way.

-Marc.

This is one way to look at it, and it makes a lot of sense. Another idea I have:
You're smart enough for me to trust go live your life now
Just keep these steps in your life and you'll know how
The point isn't to move on and repeat the same mistakes, the point is to remember the steps and use the experience to avoid repeating them. Remember it's not addiction alone, it's also all the consequences (and reasons) connected, see the entire Repentance for example.

This. The AA Suite is overrated anyway. Seriously, how could ANYONE sit through the entire thing live? I would probably fall asleep, and in my opinion it would be a massive waste of almost an entire Evening With set. I pray they decide to NOT play the entire Suite in a live setting.

I wonder how could anyone fall asleep. Four out of five songs are amazing progressive metal songs among DT's most dynamic. Repentance is a moment of breath and an incredibly atmospheric and emotional piece.

Also I don't see how is it overrated in any way, as TGP is the only one of the five which is often cited as people's favourite on the album, the others are all seriously controversial, only The Root of All Evil seems to be liked without much controversy.

[Mladen]

I think a lot of the reprises in TSF sounded forced, and it would have been a better song if it had not been hell bent on rehashing every riff of the previous 4 songs.

This. Not to mention the dragged keyboard solo...

[KevShmev]

The AA Suite is overrated anyway. Seriously, how could ANYONE sit through the entire thing live? 

Agreed.  I would dig "The Glass Prison" and "The Shattered Fortress," but "This Dying Soul" is a bottom tier DT song in my eyes, "The Root of All Evil" is okay, but nothing special, and "Repentance" is really good, but too mellow to be an ass-kicker live, so the 2nd, 3rd and 4th songs would be about 30 minutes of disinterest for me, at least in a live setting. 

[hefdaddy42]

I'm with M and Darkes7 on this one.  I love The Shattered Fortress, and can't wait until we get to see the whole thing performed live.

[bosk1]

I'm with M and Darkes7 on this one.  I love The Shattered Fortress, and can't wait until we get to see the whole thing performed live.

Same.  And I have to respectfully disagree with Kev, although I see his point and I understand not everyone would enjoy the entire thing live.  Agreed that The Glass Prison would be awesome.  I got to see it a long while back, and it was as amazing as one might expect.  Even though I like TDS, I agree that it is lower-tier for DT.  BUT, it is a terrific live tune, and I expect it to have tons of energy.  The middle section of the saga will probably be a bit of a lull.  I like TROAE a lot, and I'm sure it will be good live, but will probably feel like a bit of a let-down after the first two songs.  Yeah, Repentence is mellow and atmospheric, but I think that will actually be perfect in a live setting at this point in the song.  And then to close it with TSF?  I think the energy will come right back up.

[hefdaddy42]

The funny thing for me about TDS is that I've heard all the reasons that some people dislike the song, and I even agree with some of them, but I still like it a lot anyway.  I suppose everyone has some songs or movies that are like that.

For instance, I really like the film Hudson Hawk.  Yes, I know.

[bosk1]

The funny thing for me about TDS is that I've heard all the reasons that some people dislike the song, and I even agree with some of them, but I still like it a lot anyway.  I suppose everyone has some songs or movies that are like that.

For instance, I really like the film Hudson Hawk.  Yes, I know.

No, I get that.  I really like it as well--I just rank it a lot lower than other stuff I like a lot more.  Without getting specific, my biggest criticism of the song is that it has the promise of being completely awesome, but there are just some little nitpicky things here and there that I feel detract from the awesomeness and knock it down a bit, and those things are completely unnecessary (such as, e.g., the Blackened part--normally I have no problem with DT giving a nod to their influences, even to the point of borrowing directly from songs, but this one just rubs me the wrong way for some reason).

[KevShmev]

I have zero interest in any of the Star Wars or Lords of the Ring movies, but love Teen Wolf, Summer School and Weekend at Bernie's.

[BRGM]

I think a lot of the reprises in TSF sounded forced, and it would have been a better song if it had not been hell bent on rehashing every riff of the previous 4 songs.

This. The AA Suite is overrated anyway. Seriously, how could ANYONE sit through the entire thing live? I would probably fall asleep, and in my opinion it would be a massive waste of almost an entire Evening With set. I pray they decide to NOT play the entire Suite in a live setting.

Quad, we know u hate the 12 step suite, but I like it it's good, and I'd love to see that song live on day!

[orcus116]

No, I get that.  I really like it as well--I just rank it a lot lower than other stuff I like a lot more.  Without getting specific, my biggest criticism of the song is that it has the promise of being completely awesome, but there are just some little nitpicky things here and there that I feel detract from the awesomeness and knock it down a bit, and those things are completely unnecessary (such as, e.g., the Blackened part--normally I have no problem with DT giving a nod to their influences, even to the point of borrowing directly from songs, but this one just rubs me the wrong way for some reason).

Much of the second half just kills it which is a shame because the first half is incredibly good. Once it gets into the soloing I just lose interest.

[bosk1]

Yeah, I can understand that.  I really like the soloing and instrumental sections in both TGP and TDS, but I feel that both slightly overstay their welcome (TDS a bit more than TGP).

[antigoon]

I feel the same way about TDS as Orcus and Kev. It could have been a great song but all the stuff in the second half makes it one of DT's worst just because I can't ever stand to sit through it. The rest of the suite is top notch, though, and I think it's safe to say that TSF is one of my favorite DT songs.

[RoeDent]

Quad, can I ask why you seem to dislike the 12SS?

[Scrub206]

i absolutly love the whole AA Suite.. its soo 

i think im the only one here who likes TSF in its entirety. i thought it was a really cool way to incorp everything that it was about. nothing dissapointed me about it.

unless i was singing along and totally got fucked with the lyrics LOL

[KevShmev]

i think im the only one here who likes TSF in its entirety.

I do, too.  I do think they went a little overboard with the reprises from other songs, but I almost never listen to TDS or TROAE, anyway, so the best parts of those songs being included in TSF all but makes those two songs useless to me now.  See, it all works out.

[Adami]

The only part of TSF I don't like is the keyboard solo. Only because it goes on and on and on and doesn't seem to serve any kind of puprose at all. But beyond that, I like it a lot. Reprises and all.

[Quadrochosis]

Quad, can I ask why you seem to dislike the 12SS?

It's just too samey for me. I have no problems with any of the individual songs per say (except TDS which is easily the worst part of it), and I'm sure any of them would be a treat live. But sitting through a song that has the same riffs going throughout it for 60+ minutes just sounds like it would become incredibly boring.

Basically for me, the parts are greater than the sum. Seeing them all together would just be a huge waste of time in my opinion.

[RoeDent]

Quad, can I ask why you seem to dislike the 12SS?

It's just too samey for me. I have no problems with any of the individual songs per say (except TDS which is easily the worst part of it), and I'm sure any of them would be a treat live. But sitting through a song that has the same riffs going throughout it for 60+ minutes just sounds like it would become incredibly boring.

Basically for me, the parts are greater than the sum. Seeing them all together would just be a huge waste of time in my opinion.

I'm guessing you don't really like SFAM then?

-------------------------------

i absolutly love the whole AA Suite.. its soo 

i think im the only one here who likes TSF in its entirety. i thought it was a really cool way to incorp everything that it was about. nothing dissapointed me about it.

I love TSF. The first part of the 12SS I heard was TRoAE, and I was particularly attracted by the 'Take all of me' chorus from a musical standpoint, so I was excited to hear that again in TSF. However, it only really works in the context of the suite. As a stand alone track (which it was never intended to be of course), it is rather mish-mashy. Loads of different sections with no major development.

[hefdaddy42]

In all fairness, that isn't quite the same.

[glaurung]

I understand doing it for Octavarium since that's the concept of the album,

[Quadrochosis]

I'm guessing you don't really like SFAM then?

Are you seriously comparing the 12SS to SFAM? The 12SS feels like one giant 60 minute song with forced theme reprisals every 10 minutes, whereas SFAM is a concept album with many different songs that sound wildly different, and the theme reprisals occur at the end of the album and neither sound forced nor out of place.