Hugh Syme is at it again

[EvantheMotel6Owmer]

A lot of people, actually. I can buy a bag of fresh coffee beans that will last me a week for that price, but to each their own.

Yeah, we do the same. Buy beans in bulk and then we have a coffee machine that automatically grinds them.

[Madman Shepherd]

Maybe he's looking for some free publicity. Or maybe he wants to get ahead of future issues - I don't know if it's my fault, but I discovered today that there's a band called Orion. Dream Theater are obviously more famous than them, so maybe the guy thought "sooner or later someone will notice it, and will come to the conclusion that we stole from Dream Theater" and he wants to set the record straight.

I checked out his original post and he was kind of distraught. People were suggesting he contact Hugh to discuss it and he basically said he wants to be he's too dumbfounded to find the words. I think he did email him eventually.

Why should anyone care what a school's plagiarism policy is?  We're not talking about school kids getting busted for writing a paper and passing off someone's work as their own.  We're talking about the definition of words and how they are used by adults in the real world.  "Plariarism" just doens't fit this situation. 

Right, and that's a you problem, and not a Hugh Syme problem.  You don't like it?  Cool.  That and $6 will get you a cup of coffee.  Otherwise, nobody cares.

I mean, people clearly care and it is possibly damaging Hugh's brand so I think it is a Hugh problem. Whether it should be as big of one as some people are making it out to be is another discussion.

[bosk1]

now I remember why I post once in every 16 years here. It's the admins and this kind of cocky attitude and addressing people.

See you in 2041.

[TAC]

I knew it would be you that asked this.

Noone else thinks that's nuts?

[Madman Shepherd]

Thinking this is "not a big problem" is a pathway to mediocrity and stagnation, towards which this band has been steadily declining for a while now.

Have they? I don't even like the new album that much but I wouldn't say they've been declining.

[Madman Shepherd]

Good enough.

Classy acknowledgement from Portnoy. Perfect way to address something uncomfortable like this. 👍

[hefdaddy42]

Classy acknowledgement from Portnoy. Perfect way to address something uncomfortable like this. 👍

Exactly. Case closed, as far as I'm concerned. 

[Madman Shepherd]

Delete

[Stadler]

You were the one who brought up the definition of plagiarism  If you're not a fan of The University of Oxford's definition, you can also check Wikipedia, under "Self-plagiarism" (there are sources there too!).

That said, I'm not looking to stir anything up, and it's not that important to me that we agree on this. So let's just agree to disagree

Bosk can defend himself, but first, it "CAN" be self-plagiarism; doesn't necessarily mean it IS self-plagiarism.

Second (from the Wiki page, properly cited, and so not plagiarism . ), "self-plagiarism is considered a serious ethical issue in settings where someone asserts that a publication consists of new material, such as in publishing or factual documentation".  I don't know that anyone - including Syme - has made that assertion. 

Three, the very concept of "self-plagiarism", especially in today's "blog" age, is a disputed concept, generally, and so not everyone agrees that it's a problem.

Personally, I too think this is a non-issue.  If you start looking at album covers/album artwork that, let's say "overlaps", we'll be here all day.  Sabbath has I think three albums that fall into that category alone.  Anyone ever see the "London Calling" album cover and then compare it to Elvis's debut album?  About half the Kiss albums aren't strictly plagiaries, but mimic and/or pay homage to Beatles covers.   Hipgnosis - Zeppelin, Pink Floyd - has recycled images and concepts for YEARS.  Look at Falling Into Infinity and then compare to Skunkworks. 

[TAC]

About half the Kiss albums aren't strictly plagiaries, but mimic and/or pay homage to Beatles covers.   Hipgnosis - Zeppelin, Pink Floyd - has recycled images and concepts for YEARS. 

What are the Kiss/Beatles comparisons?


Zeppelin and Floyd have recycled images?

[ReaperKK]

so, where's the new forum theme? Or did you guys also hire Hugh?

[SeRoX]

MP handled it nicely.

[voncorn]

Personally, I too think this is a non-issue.  If you start looking at album covers/album artwork that, let's say "overlaps", we'll be here all day.  Sabbath has I think three albums that fall into that category alone.  Anyone ever see the "London Calling" album cover and then compare it to Elvis's debut album?  About half the Kiss albums aren't strictly plagiaries, but mimic and/or pay homage to Beatles covers.   Hipgnosis - Zeppelin, Pink Floyd - has recycled images and concepts for YEARS.  Look at Falling Into Infinity and then compare to Skunkworks. 

I feel like you are entirely missing the point... nobody here is accusing anyone of laziness or plagiarism by relying on tried-and-true aesthetics or creating something that is a clear homage/tribute.

The picture for the DT artbook uses the exact same photo from another project he had already submitted. Keeping in line with the school analogy, this is Hugh getting caught submitting the same essay he wrote for a class from last year for an entirely different class.     

[Stadler]

What are the Kiss/Beatles comparisons?

Kiss - With The Beatles
Dynasty (and Asylum) - Let It Be
Dressed To Kill - Live At The BBC (though that came out decades later, the photo was well known).
Destroyer - Help

Zeppelin and Floyd have recycled images?

The pictures on Presence - with the object - I've heard were actually from National Geographic magazines.  There are images in Dark Side of the desert that got used elsewhere.  There's a 10cc record that, if it doesn't use the same picture, it uses the idea.

[impolybius]

Bosk can defend himself, but first, it "CAN" be self-plagiarism; doesn't necessarily mean it IS self-plagiarism.

Second (from the Wiki page, properly cited, and so not plagiarism . ), "self-plagiarism is considered a serious ethical issue in settings where someone asserts that a publication consists of new material, such as in publishing or factual documentation".  I don't know that anyone - including Syme - has made that assertion. 

I mean, MP just mentioned that they didn't know it was reused artwork, so Syme might not have explicitly claimed that it's new material, but he also hasn't clarified that it's reused artwork either, has he?

Three, the very concept of "self-plagiarism", especially in today's "blog" age, is a disputed concept, generally, and so not everyone agrees that it's a problem.

No worries. We don't need to agree on whether it's a problem.

Personally, I too think this is a non-issue.  If you start looking at album covers/album artwork that, let's say "overlaps", we'll be here all day.  Sabbath has I think three albums that fall into that category alone.  Anyone ever see the "London Calling" album cover and then compare it to Elvis's debut album?  About half the Kiss albums aren't strictly plagiaries, but mimic and/or pay homage to Beatles covers.  Hipgnosis - Zeppelin, Pink Floyd - has recycled images and concepts for YEARS.  Look at Falling Into Infinity and then compare to Skunkworks. 

The fact that you personally think it's a non-issue doesn't bother me, but I would personally categorize the London Calling and Skunkworks examples as homages rather than plagiarism. In this case, however, the artwork is identical, so it's not really the same situation—at least in my view.

[Stadler]

I feel like you are entirely missing the point... nobody here is accusing anyone of laziness or plagiarism by relying on tried-and-true aesthetics or creating something that is a clear homage/tribute.

The picture for the DT artbook uses the exact same photo from another project he had already submitted. Keeping in line with the school analogy, this is Hugh getting caught submitting the same essay he wrote for a class from last year for an entirely different class.   

I get it. I understand what an "homage" is.  Unless Orion bought the exclusive rights, or bought ownership outright - both of which I would be surprised at, given the relative popularities of Orion and Hugh Syme - I still don't see the problem.  (By the way, "homage" doesn't make that which is illegal, legal.)

[TAC]

Kiss - With The Beatles
Dynasty (and Asylum) - Let It Be
Dressed To Kill - Live At The BBC (though that came out decades later, the photo was well known).
Destroyer - Help

But not Love Gun-Sgt Peppers?

Ok, I just did an image search on those Beatles albums. I mean, I guess I can see it, though not with Asylum.


I know Kiss were big Beatles fans. Is this something that they've talked about, or just a fan seeing some perceived similarities?

[noxon]

IMO, this is a pretty big deal. The package of an album is telling a story, and I as a band would assume when an artist is commissioned for a job like this, that the images submitted for the project aren't being made available for other clients simultaneously. Even if there's not exclusivity clause signed for the images, I would have an expectation of the image not being similarly used for another client.

After all, this is about branding. The artwork connected to an album is a brand. (btw, this is why i dont like the ToT artwork as DT artwork, since many of the images are available elsewhere and therefore not DTs brand - but this was a choice DT made when they bought the rights to use Jerry Uelsmanns artwork). The brand is tarnished if another band uses the same artwork.

I don't put any sort of blame on DT - they wouldnt have known...

[voncorn]

I get it. I understand what an "homage" is.  Unless Orion bought the exclusive rights, or bought ownership outright - both of which I would be surprised at, given the relative popularities of Orion and Hugh Syme - I still don't see the problem.  (By the way, "homage" doesn't make that which is illegal, legal.)

I don't think anyone here is concerned about the legality/copyright aspect. You've made it clear that it's a non-issue to you, but considering DT's (and their fans') penchant for high standards and attention to detail, it's disappointing to see such blatant half-assedness make it into the final product.

 

[XJDenton]

In honour of Hugh Sykes work, the new Forum Theme will now be the same as the old one.

(Not really, new one is still coming, just had server issues on my test bed which  has delayed things.)

[TAC]

We should use the theme of Orion's website.

[Nel_Annette]

The top of the forum theme should be Portnoy's grin, and the rest of the page should just be a big blue beard stretched from corner to corner. Welcome back, buddy!

[wolfking]

$6 for a coffee?? Who does that?

Fucking amen!  Outrageous. 

[wolfking]

MP knows about this.

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fguy-reports-on-fb-hugh-copy-pasted-his-own-albums-artwork-v0-7ypmjqs70she1.png%3Fwidth%3D750%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D04c98ed8b23353485dbae36a2de1b877a3245568

 

Not much more MP can say. Props to him acknowledging it though and saying they would have not used it if they knew. 

A bit dodgy from Syme regardless but whatever, it's up to the band to address it with him if they choose to.

[ganpondorodf]

There is a part of me that is of the 'who cares as long as the music is good' school, but at the same time... if the artwork was amazing, NOBODY would be saying the artwork doesn't matter

[Dedalus]

What really surprised me was to learn that DT does not buy ORIGINAL AND EXCLUSIVE ART from Hugh Syme.

I understand when they like non-exclusive art and decide to pay for the rights to use it, like in ToT. But to have any art by Hugh Syme and it not even be exclusive? Wow...

Anyway, I hope Hugh at least removed the watermark from the images he purchased before selling them to two bands.

[wolfking]

Symes probably banking on both no one knowing who Orion is as well as Orion not being DT fans. 

[SeRoX]

A silver lining on that matter, I learn a band Orion and give a listen.

[wolfking]

A silver lining on that matter, I learn a band Orion and give a listen.

That's another thing, if I were Orion, I'm not sure how mad I'd be as it would be somewhat cool having the same artwork as a DT image along with exposure they never would have gotten in the first place.

[PMSummer]

Anyway, I hope Hugh at least removed the watermark from the images he purchased before selling them to two bands.

Luckily for him, AI usually doesn't leave one.

Speaking of which, I solved the problem by "making" a new one for one of the two bands to use 

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

This is a real question from someone who doesn't know the history of album art:

Why is Hugh Syme even considered a thing in this area? Did he do something that was universally acclaimed?

I have a bunch of vinyls with album art I love including Kiss Destroyer, Bold as Love,  Rust in Peace. I never thought DT album art was in any way good historically.

[The Letter M]

This is a real question from someone who doesn't know the history of album art:

Why is Hugh Syme even considered a thing in this area? Did he do something that was universally acclaimed?

I have a bunch of vinyls with album art I love including Kiss Destroyer, Bold as Love,  Rust in Peace. I never thought DT album art was in any way good historically.

He made a name for himself with Rush, starting with Caress Of Steel. Since then, he's given album art to Iron Maiden, Megadeth, Saga, Styx, Altered State, Fates Warning, Whitesnake, Queensrÿche, Aerosmith, and of course, Dream Theater (who seem to ponder the question "What Would Rush Do?" quite often).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Syme

-Marc.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Thanks. There are some covers in there I like but it's interesting to me DT has gone back to him as much as they have.

[T-ski]

A silver lining on that matter, I learn a band Orion and give a listen.

Orion's new album The Lightbringers is really good, shocked it hasn't been talked a out on this forum.

[Northern Lion]

Although this situation makes me scratch my head, I'm still pretty easy to please when it comes to album art.

I'm not nit picky at all. I don't care if stock images are used, I don't care if AI is used etc. If I think the picture looks good then I like it.

Personality, I like Hugh's art and his style.  DT12 and d/t are among my very favorite album covers of any band let alone DT.

And I was very impressed seeing the iterations View's cover went through when it was being discussed here.

As far as this goes, I guess we'll see. But I also think he's criticized a little too much here in the forums. Everyone likes what they like of course, but regardless, I contend he is not only a good artist but a great artist.