Hugh Syme is at it again

[Stadler]

I'm sorry Bosk but according to your logic, we shouldn't care about wars happening in other countries, human trafficking, or starving children because it doesn't affect us directly (or probably the majority of members here). Of course, the situation at hand doesn't have the same moral impact, but the principle remains. I think it is normal for fans who care about the band to be somewhat outraged about what happened. Hugh has been criticized for doing lazy work for years, at this point, it doesn't take much for the fans' dissatisfaction to manifest.

On another note, I'm not convinced that re-using the artwork was a mistake. Both pieces are slightly different, notably the number of shadowy figures on top of the stairs. At some point, there was a definitive version 1 of this artwork that has been altered to version 2 and delivered to DT presumably. Now, I don't know Hugh's process, but does he create a bank of generic artwork in advance that he can give to bands with minimum editing when required? Maybe, but I find that improbable. Nonetheless, if that's the case I can understand a mistake happening, but at the same time, it should be a simple matter of properly cataloging images, i.e.: removing a file from the "available" folder. Simple error with huge consequences. It still points to a questionable work ethic.

After years of controversies with Hugh's work, I hope DT chooses a different artist for their next album. If they really love Hugh's style, I'm sure they can find someone else who would do an incredible job in that same style without all the lazy shortcuts. 

Orion, sorry for the situation. Thank you for sharing it with us and being transparent. I'm listening to your album as I type this, it rocks! Love the vibe!

Bosk can speak for himself, but as one that tends to agree with him on this point, It's one thing to have a gut reaction, but it's another thing entirely to have an INFORMED, KNOWLEDGEABLE opinion on a subject in order to justify conclusions like "injustice".  I am seeing things being said in this thread that are, in my opinion at best inconsistent, at worst, untrue.  Do we get, then, to have our "feelings" control even if they don't reflect reality? 

To the example above; I can generally be against "war"; I am personally abhorred by the loss of life.  However, when we dig into the FACTS, things can change.  I'm not as harsh with my judgement of, say, the landing on Normandy given what I know now about the circumstances in Europe at the time. 

Humans are imperfect, imprecise, inconsistent beings.  I get that some disagree with me on this point, but I don't believe that we can always correctly perceive things from patterns we think we observe from a distance.  If I've cheated on a partner in the past, is EVERY intimate conversation with a woman a red flag?  If I've never cheated on a partner in the past, is EVERY intimate conversation with a woman innocuous?  What if my wife cheated; does that change the calculus?  What if we've reached an agreement on an open marriage; does that change the calculus?  There's a reason that "prior bad acts" are generally inadmissible in a U.S. court room.

[Thoughtspart3]

Sadly, the artwork is identical, including the number of shadowy figures.

It might be tricky to see in the image I shared on Facebook, but a fan has since sent me a close up video of the DT art book, and the image used is identical. I also said to Hugh that they are identical, and he didn't dispute it.

Thanks stinks. I didn't think it was identical initially.

[Thoughtspart3]

but it's another thing entirely to have an INFORMED, KNOWLEDGEABLE opinion on a subject in order to justify conclusions like "injustice".

We do need to be careful not to speculate about things which we can't know. As the facts come out we can have a more informed take.

Orion joining us is a big help. Thank you! We can get info directly from someone involved.

Ultimately this will get worked through. It is not the end of the world. However, I am sure it is stressful in the short term for those involved.
 

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

We do need to be careful not to speculate about things which we can't know. As the facts come out we can have a more informed take.

Orion joining us is a big help. Thank you! We can get info directly from someone involved.

Ultimately this will get worked through. It is not the end of the world. However, I am sure it is stressful in the short term for those involved.
 

What has to be worked through? Are you saying they might have to recall the box sets that included the art? I already got mine in the mail, so if anything it might mean that those versions of the release end up in the annals of rare merchandise, similar to the WTC Bleeding Heart cover of the Live Scenes in NY - Which I also have a signed copy of by all original members and even Derek and Mike Mango

[Orion - Music]

What has to be worked through? Are you saying they might have to recall the box sets that included the art? I already got mine in the mail, so if anything it might mean that those versions of the release end up in the annals of rare merchandise, similar to the WTC Bleeding Heart cover of the Live Scenes in NY - Which I also have a signed copy of by all original members and even Derek and Mike Mango

Whilst I'm not really a gambling man, I'd say the odds of a recall sit at a solid zero 

[Orion - Music]

Before I forget, I do appreciate that everyone is being most level headed (at least since I've been here). I've responded to hundreds of notifications since this all went off, and I've encountered a lot of unreasonable behaviour, including one actual stalker.

[ZirconBlue]

So, here's the thing:  There are over 40 pieces of art in the Parasomnia boxed set.  Based on what was stated in the unboxing video, it seems that Syme showed them a bunch of pieces and they, essentially, decided to use all of them.  It seems very unlikely to me that Syme created 40+ custom pieces of art for DT.  That would be a lot of work on speculation.  Rather, it sounds like he gathered up some pieces he already had that fit the theme, maybe customized a few of the pieces and did a couple new pieces, and sold them all to DT.  If that is the case, then (A) it doesn't seem too outlandish that he accidentally had a previously-sold pic in there, especially considering (2) if he had 40+ pieces that fit the Parasomnia them, how many hundreds or thousands of other works does he have sitting in his portfolio?  

So, IMHO, it's certainly plausible that it was just an honest mistake.  Hopefully, the situation will be resolved to Orion's satisfaction.


A couple of semi-related notes:  (1) For SFaM, they picked a Dave McKean piece from his portfolio that they liked, but he created a new, similarly-constructed piece for the album, because the photo they picked was already in use on a Sandman trade paperback cover.  But, it doesn't sound like they were upset by the idea of using artwork that wasn't specifically created for them.  (B) Wasn't one of the art pieces they rejected for FII re-used for a Pink Floyd cover?  It doesn't seem like it's always expected that artists will create completely new art for every album that comes along.

[CraftyCaleb2483]

I guess it's time for me to step in.

Can I just say, I've never seen a post with 31 likes before 

[illusionist]

Very interesting and useful info ZirconBlue.
I knew neither what you said about SFaM cover nor the FII one.
These are the comments i look forward to when reading this forum.
Thanks!

[Orion - Music]

Can I just say, I've never seen a post with 31 likes before 

Perhaps it's an accolade I can add to my next promo pack 

[CraftyCaleb2483]

Perhaps it's an accolade I can add to my next promo pack 

[gzarruk]

A couple of semi-related notes:  (1) For SFaM, they picked a Dave McKean piece from his portfolio that they liked, but he created a new, similarly-constructed piece for the album, because the photo they picked was already in use on a Sandman trade paperback cover.  But, it doesn't sound like they were upset by the idea of using artwork that wasn't specifically created for them.  (B) Wasn't one of the art pieces they rejected for FII re-used for a Pink Floyd cover?  It doesn't seem like it's always expected that artists will create completely new art for every album that comes along.

It's the one used for Echoes: The Best of Pink Floyd, but a quick search shows there's two different covers for that release, no idea which one was suggested for DT.

[durga2112]

So, here's the thing:  There are over 40 pieces of art in the Parasomnia boxed set.  Based on what was stated in the unboxing video, it seems that Syme showed them a bunch of pieces and they, essentially, decided to use all of them.  It seems very unlikely to me that Syme created 40+ custom pieces of art for DT.  That would be a lot of work on speculation.  Rather, it sounds like he gathered up some pieces he already had that fit the theme, maybe customized a few of the pieces and did a couple new pieces, and sold them all to DT.  If that is the case, then (A) it doesn't seem too outlandish that he accidentally had a previously-sold pic in there, especially considering (2) if he had 40+ pieces that fit the Parasomnia them, how many hundreds or thousands of other works does he have sitting in his portfolio? 

I can't lie, I really thought you were going to ask how many other works of his are going to show up in other albums. 

[Thoughtspart3]

What has to be worked through? Are you saying they might have to recall the box sets that included the art? I already got mine in the mail, so if anything it might mean that those versions of the release end up in the annals of rare merchandise, similar to the WTC Bleeding Heart cover of the Live Scenes in NY - Which I also have a signed copy of by all original members and even Derek and Mike Mango

I don't know if there's going to be recalls or anything like that. I'm more mean the parties involved just need to work through the discrepancy and decide how to handle it amongst themselves. One important thing would be to have clarity that the art is exclusive to the band for future projects and that the art is double checked before going to print that it's not used in a past project.

[Mebert78]

Regarding the artwork, I've watched a lot of DT interviews on YouTube in recent weeks, but I haven't seen anyone ask them if the girl on the cover is supposed to an adaptation of the girl from the cover of Images and Words. My instinct says it's supposed to her, when you consider the similarities in her hair and nightgown. Plus, the room itself and the windows have similarities.

[Northern Lion]

Regarding the artwork, I've watched a lot of DT interviews on YouTube in recent weeks, but I haven't seen anyone ask them if the girl on the cover is supposed to an adaptation of the girl from the cover of Images and Words. My instinct says it's supposed to her, when you consider the similarities in her hair and nightgown. Plus, the room itself and the windows have similarities.

Who knows, it might be. There are other international throw backs in the music, so I think it's certainly possible.

[MirrorMask]

So, here's the thing:  There are over 40 pieces of art in the Parasomnia boxed set.  Based on what was stated in the unboxing video, it seems that Syme showed them a bunch of pieces and they, essentially, decided to use all of them.  It seems very unlikely to me that Syme created 40+ custom pieces of art for DT.  That would be a lot of work on speculation.  Rather, it sounds like he gathered up some pieces he already had that fit the theme, maybe customized a few of the pieces and did a couple new pieces, and sold them all to DT.  If that is the case, then (A) it doesn't seem too outlandish that he accidentally had a previously-sold pic in there, especially considering (2) if he had 40+ pieces that fit the Parasomnia them, how many hundreds or thousands of other works does he have sitting in his portfolio? 

So, IMHO, it's certainly plausible that it was just an honest mistake.  Hopefully, the situation will be resolved to Orion's satisfaction.

Yeah this is the most likely explanation.

Still, not a good outcome for Syme, 'cause the "mistique" kinda falls apart... you get the artist that made Rush covers and what is the end result? someone who doesn't even remember which kind of art he already sold to which band. Yeah mistakes can happen but when you have a big name in the industry they shouldn't happen. Anyone can forget a riff used already for a song of 15 years ago but if Dream Theater reused note for note a complete riff from Dramatic or DT12 they'd be heavily criticized for it.

[Dedalus]

So, here's the thing:  There are over 40 pieces of art in the Parasomnia boxed set.  Based on what was stated in the unboxing video, it seems that Syme showed them a bunch of pieces and they, essentially, decided to use all of them.  It seems very unlikely to me that Syme created 40+ custom pieces of art for DT.  That would be a lot of work on speculation.  Rather, it sounds like he gathered up some pieces he already had that fit the theme, maybe customized a few of the pieces and did a couple new pieces, and sold them all to DT.  If that is the case, then (A) it doesn't seem too outlandish that he accidentally had a previously-sold pic in there, especially considering (2) if he had 40+ pieces that fit the Parasomnia them, how many hundreds or thousands of other works does he have sitting in his portfolio? 

So, IMHO, it's certainly plausible that it was just an honest mistake.  Hopefully, the situation will be resolved to Orion's satisfaction.

I think it's quite likely that it was carelessness on his part, which ended up causing him to forget that he had already sold the artwork.

Especially because this involves a very famous band. Hugh literally sold an already used artwork to the biggest prog metal band out there, a band that certainly expected exclusive artwork (in fact, as MP said... if they knew it had already been used, they wouldn't have used it). And since he sold the artwork for the second time to a band the size of DT, it was kind of impossible that Orion wouldn't find out about it sooner or later.

I have to say that if it were artwork involving two more obscure bands, it would look like someone trying to double the amount of money with a single effort.

There seems to be some plausibility in the claim that it was a mistake. But he needs to fix this mistake. If I were a member of either of the TWO BANDS, I would demand it from him.

A couple of semi-related notes:  (1) For SFaM, they picked a Dave McKean piece from his portfolio that they liked, but he created a new, similarly-constructed piece for the album, because the photo they picked was already in use on a Sandman trade paperback cover.  But, it doesn't sound like they were upset by the idea of using artwork that wasn't specifically created for them.  (B) Wasn't one of the art pieces they rejected for FII re-used for a Pink Floyd cover?  It doesn't seem like it's always expected that artists will create completely new art for every album that comes along.

But this has nothing to do with what happened.

In A, DT was already aware that Dave McKean had done a similar piece of art. It wasn't part of the expectation that it would be an exclusive piece (from a conceptual point of view). They knew it would be a recreation.

And after SFAM, Dave had already recreated the same piece of art a few more times.

Now they expected an original piece of art, as MP made clear. Besides, it's not the same concept used more than once. It's the same piece of art.

In B, however, we have something very common. The artist tries to sell the piece of art to a client, who doesn't accept it. So the artist tries to sell it to another client, who may accept it. And it will still be an exclusive piece of art, since it hasn't been used before.

It has no relation to the event being discussed here.

[wolfking]

I guess it's time for me to step in.

Some people have also gone on to say that I should be happy that this has happened, and that I am greatly benefiting from all of this. Now, I can understand why someone would make such a misguided statement, but it is exactly that; misguided.

Hey mate, cheers for stepping in here and posting, big props to you.  I'm on board with everything that it's a complete farce that he has made this error.  Yes, mistakes happen, but this shouldn't be one that happened.  I hope the outcome works in your favour also.

Main reason for my reply is the point above, I know I alluded to this fact on page 2, but that was more an off the cuff thinking out loud kind of statement and reading your reply here, yes, that off the cuff comment was out of order, so apologies because as I said, and as per my other posts, you have every right to be pissed about the situation.  We can all be at fault at making comments without having any involvement or knowing the full story so apolgoies.

Also will check your band out regardless! 

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

Also will check your band out regardless! 

Check 'em out! I loved it

[CodyWanKenobi]

Well, maybe this ends up being a good thing for us DT fans who haven't been liking Hugh's work lately - if DT decides to stop using him for the foreseeable future. I'm not interested in supporting artists who get paid lots of money for commissions but won't spend the money for the rights to licensed images, or who use cheap AI to generate the imagery, or who reuse artwork they've already been paid for. It would be nice to not feel compelled to buy albums with his art on the cover. There are plenty of smaller artists who would bust their ass off to create amazing work for a band like DT for a fraction of what they're likely paying Hugh.

[JediKnight1969]

Two words: George Grie

https://george-grie.pixels.com/

This could have been Train of Tought

https://george-grie.pixels.com/featured/the-way-out-or-suicidal-ideation-george-grie.html

[Orion - Music]

Hey mate, cheers for stepping in here and posting, big props to you.  I'm on board with everything that it's a complete farce that he has made this error.  Yes, mistakes happen, but this shouldn't be one that happened.  I hope the outcome works in your favour also.

Main reason for my reply is the point above, I know I alluded to this fact on page 2, but that was more an off the cuff thinking out loud kind of statement and reading your reply here, yes, that off the cuff comment was out of order, so apologies because as I said, and as per my other posts, you have every right to be pissed about the situation.  We can all be at fault at making comments without having any involvement or knowing the full story so apolgoies.

Also will check your band out regardless! 

Honestly, it's fine. It's something a number of people have said, and across a few different platforms. So I certainly wasn't trying to highlight anyone specific 

I hope you enjoy what you hear.

[hefdaddy42]

I hope you enjoy what you hear.

FWIW, I listened to your new album yesterday afternoon and liked it a lot.  Very nice job! 

[Orion - Music]

FWIW, I listened to your new album yesterday afternoon and liked it a lot.  Very nice job! 

It's always nice when people enjoy it. Oddly, I'm also fine if people don't enjoy it     

[hefdaddy42]

It's always nice when people enjoy it. Oddly, I'm also fine if people don't enjoy it   

Hey, people like what they like.

[Orion - Music]

Hey, people like what they like.

For sure. There are plenty of times where even I don't like my music.

[illusionist]

Two words: George Grie

https://george-grie.pixels.com/

This could have been Train of Tought

https://george-grie.pixels.com/featured/the-way-out-or-suicidal-ideation-george-grie.html

Wow, great work!
His art definitely fits with the Parasomnia concept, as well as the DT world in general!
Thanks!

[CraftyCaleb2483]

Listening to your album now. I'm liking the guitar tone    

[ZirconBlue]

Hey, people like what they like.

I don't.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't.

Well then

[TAC]

Not Hugh Syme related per se, but I am wondering why the album cover has a young girl on the cover when it seems like the songs are about a male subject?

[MinistroRaven]

Not Hugh Syme related per se, but I am wondering why the album cover has a young girl on the cover when it seems like the songs are about a male subject?

Why can't it be a young boy with long hair? Are you judging him based on his appearance? 


Direct from TSMI lyrics:

He can feel his stare
Intruder in the room
But no one's there
He could hardly move
Frozen like a stone

Another verse:

She's half asleep
Bedroom window open wide
Can hardly breathe
As a figure creeps inside

__

What if it's a she-boy? Does that change things?

[voncorn]

Not Hugh Syme related per se, but I am wondering why the album cover has a young girl on the cover when it seems like the songs are about a male subject?

BC&SL had a young boy on the cover, so naturally the follow-up with the same lineup needed to have a girl. Like how I&W had a girl and ACOS had a boy. This also reflects MP being the father of one girl and one boy.

NUGGETZ!!!

[Mebert78]

Just saw someone post on Facebook that one of the fenale characters in the album booklet has an extra finger. Could be an homage to 6DOIT though.