Would you ever turn your own child in to the police if they'd committed a crime?

[Dave_Manchester]

So a story was doing the rounds earlier today of a father who turned his teenaged son in to the police because he'd vandalised a WW1 memorial with pro-Palestine graffiti. I'm not linking to it because I don't want this thread to stray into political territory or a discussion of the on-going student protests.

What I do want is to hear some opinions from parents and non-parents alike on whether there are any circumstances in which you can see yourselves shopping your own kid to the cops. I became a father a couple of years ago and my own instinctive reaction when reading the story was that there are no circumstances whatsoever that would lead me to turn my child in. But that was an emotional response, not a considered one.

I've tried to cover the 3 broad responses in the poll, and I want to be clear that the discussion is for everyone, not just parents. Those who don't have kids can imagine their hypothetical reaction to the question.

I don't currently have a firm answer for myself, beyond the instinctive "never" I just mentioned. My child is not yet 3 years old so the prospect of criminal behaviour is still far into the future. For the record I'm not someone who believes that children from good homes - as I like to think my child is - don't grow up to be criminals, because this is obviously not true. Let's assume for the sake of this discussion that anyone's kid could one day commit a crime, including the most serious crimes.

So what would you do? Some stuff to consider: would it depend in any way on the severity of the crime? And if you would turn them in, why? As a scare tactic (if the crime was minor)? Do you think handing them over to the police would have a net positive effect on their future behaviour (I currently live in Russia and my answer to that is "hell no, it would likely make them worse")? What if it was a very serious crime and your kid would face severe punishment (I'm thinking of the Brian Laundrie/Gabby Petito case from a few years ago where Laundries' parents seem to have covered up for his murdering his girlfriend)? Here's a tough scenario: you discover your teenaged kid has been harming animals and writing some disturbing stuff online. Family discussion, psychologist, or straight to cops? 

Sorry for the unfocused post but there's a bunch of stuff in my head right now concerning this issue and I wanted to get some opinions on it. 

[Jamesman42]

In addition to the crime itself, I think age is a factor here. A 15 year old who shoplifted is different from a 20 year who raped someone. And vice versa. Being a teen under someone's care versus being a legal adult who might still need to learn how to be a law-abiding adult. Some things can be resolved at a low-level consequence (shoplifting, for example - my sister actually did this as a teen and she had to go apologize to the store owner and a cop drove her home, it scared the shit out of her). Some things harm others or cause a loss of value and necessitate a need for law enforcement (theft, rape, assault, etc).

Going on your tough scenario with animal abuse, there would need to be steps in place. I will not claim to know the exact order or what needs to be done, but removing the threat to the animals is first, then I think I would ask friends for advice for the next step. Psychologist seems likely, but I would gather advice on involving law enforcement before making that decision. But overall, I think there are steps to this and it's not necessarily cut and dry to generalize for all crimes.

[wgrio]

I'd go with "Possibly. It would depend on some factors." because, let's be real, situations can get complicated.

[MirrorMask]

I'd go with "Possibly. It would depend on some factors." because, let's be real, situations can get complicated.

Same here, I don't have children but it's easy to give definite, absolute answers when you're not living the situation firsthand. It depends on the circumstances leading to the crime, and the gravity of the crime itself. Murder, sexual assault, hurting children..... those are unforgivable. Relatively minor crimes like vandalism..... depends on the situation and you'll never know until you live it.

[El Barto]

I'm gonna have to go with a hard not-a-chance. Not out of any sense of familiarity, but because nothing good would come of it. We really suck at rehabilitation, and we suck even harder at actual treatment. I have zero faith in the criminal justice system in this country to do anything but punish people who may or may not need to be punished. 

[wolfking]

I don't have children so probably not the best perspective but since you said non-parents, if my kid committed a solid enough crime I would probably be the one getting locked up for child abuse.

If it's something minor and a somewhat victimless crime, I'd probably handle it myself the first time but if something happened again or seems like a certain road they could be heading down, I'd seriously think about it.

[jammindude]

I’d give my child an ultimatum.  You have x amount of time to turn yourself in or I’m doing it for you.

[WilliamMunny]

Dave, you and I are in super similar boats (my little boy will turn 3 in October), and my gut is the same as yours.

Ultimately, however, I went with 'it depends.'

I will say this–I would need to believe that my child was a continued 'serious' threat to others.

Vandalizing a memorial probably wouldn't make the cut...

[Jamesman42]

I forgot to say "it depends". Many great points above me. Mummy especially makes a good point:

I will say this–I would need to believe that my child was a continued 'serious' threat to others.

[Stadler]

My problem is that I agree with Barto, but as the father of two daughters (and two young grandsons) there's the problem of the "victim" and their families.

I honestly don't know how I'd act if given the scenario, but I feel like there would come a time where I'd have to consider it. Dave mentioned the Gabby Petito case, and that's a good one, but I was thinking of that beautiful (in spirit, I'm not commenting on her looks) girl from Alabama that disappeared from Spring Break (Natalee Ann Holloway), and it took eighteen years - 18 - to get any semblance of closure to the story, and even then... the "closure" is a proffer letter (a device by which prosecutors can get information on a crime in exchange for some promise of leniency or immunity) from the primary suspect, but no evidence of any body or forensic evidence.

I would hope my kids aren't animals in that way, but if they were, I don't think I could live with myself in that situation (the primary suspect's father is, if I recall, a judge).

[hefdaddy42]

Depends

[Stadler]

Depends

But wearing Depends isn't a crime, is it? Or do you mean blowing the whistle on YOU wearing Depends? I could see how that would piss someone off. 

[Dave_Manchester]

Can we all take a moment to acknowledge that at the time of writing, this may be the largest 'penis poll' ever achieved on this forum.

Edit: ah dammit, the right nut just got bigger.

[El Barto]

My problem is that I agree with Barto, but as the father of two daughters (and two young grandsons) there's the problem of the "victim" and their families.

I honestly don't know how I'd act if given the scenario, but I feel like there would come a time where I'd have to consider it. Dave mentioned the Gabby Petito case, and that's a good one, but I was thinking of that beautiful (in spirit, I'm not commenting on her looks) girl from Alabama that disappeared from Spring Break (Natalee Ann Holloway), and it took eighteen years - 18 - to get any semblance of closure to the story, and even then... the "closure" is a proffer letter (a device by which prosecutors can get information on a crime in exchange for some promise of leniency or immunity) from the primary suspect, but no evidence of any body or forensic evidence.

I would hope my kids aren't animals in that way, but if they were, I don't think I could live with myself in that situation (the primary suspect's father is, if I recall, a judge).

I've got some thoughts on that, but I don't want to derail Comrade Dave's thread. I just point out that the same probelm applies in spades with the Natalee Holloway case. If you don't think it's appropriate to stick your kid in a US prison, surely you'd object to having him rot away in a Barbados prison. Van der Sloot's dad was indeed a scumbag, but I wonder if he'd have taken the same stance if they'd offered to let the kid do his bid in a Dutch prison.

[Stadler]

Can we all take a moment to acknowledge that at the time of writing, this may be the largest 'penis poll' ever achieved on this forum.

Edit: ah dammit, the right nut just got bigger.

Any tailor worth their thread will tell you that the nuts hang at different lengths.   

[Dave_Manchester]

I’d give my child an ultimatum.  You have x amount of time to turn yourself in or I’m doing it for you.

For any crime, regardless of severity?

[Stadler]

I've got some thoughts on that, but I don't want to derail Comrade Dave's thread. I just point out that the same probelm applies in spades with the Natalee Holloway case. If you don't think it's appropriate to stick your kid in a US prison, surely you'd object to having him rot away in a Barbados prison. Van der Sloot's dad was indeed a scumbag, but I wonder if he'd have taken the same stance if they'd offered to let the kid do his bid in a Dutch prison.

No that's a fair point. 

And not as continuation of that line of discussion, but just throwing it out there, on the other side is the Alex Kelly story.   

[El Barto]

No that's a fair point. 

And not as continuation of that line of discussion, but just throwing it out there, on the other side is the Alex Kelly story.

I'd never heard of the guy, but the WikiP article is an interesting read, and a good one for Dave's point (the OP, not the dick thing). Since I'm not privy to the details of the rapes, and therefore can't judge the severity, I'm thinking there's a good chance that they felt the punishment didn't fit the crime.

I don't know if you were around for the discussion, I don't think you were here yet, but we hit on this a great deal regarding the Steubenville rape case (or maybe Stanford).


edit: Looking back over that thread, this post pretty much sums up the way I think Kelly's parents might have been approaching it.

While I agree with much of what Mr. Rollins said, I have an additional take on the sentence. [At this point I state that I have very little knowledge of the circumstances here] It seems to me that their actions were more the result of stupidity and thoughtlessness than hate or contempt. At some point you have to look at people and try to decide if they're rotten people or dipshits that did something rotten. My hunch (and this is strictly a hunch) is that they fit into the latter category. Only after sorting that out can one reasonably determine the best course of action. The options are binary. You can fuck them up for the rest of their lives, or you can shoot for a direction that might allow them to have some kind of reasonable future. I don't think putting 16 year olds into the prison system for a couple of years will benefit anybody, particularly the society at large. If they actually are rotten kids, then you can cut your losses and expect to incarcerate them indefinitely. If they're deserving of a second chance, it shouldn't come after a few years of gladiator school and the lifelong stigma they're fixing to attach to these nimrods.

Basically, I'm not sure which category these kids fall into, but this sentence is pretty stupid for either being too harsh or too short. There really isn't any happy medium insofar as our penal system goes, and trying to force one upon a guilty verdict does nobody any good whatsoever.

[hefdaddy42]

But wearing Depends isn't a crime, is it? Or do you mean blowing the whistle on YOU wearing Depends? I could see how that would piss someone off.

Depends

[hunnus2000]

Depends

 

Good one!

[cramx3]

Depends

If the child is a threat to society, I would feel it is my duty to turn over my child.  Something like murder or rape. 

If we are talking victimless crimes, I doubt it, but I guess there can be situations.  Things like illegal drug abuse that gets so bad that you have to put the kid away, (Maybe not jail in that case though).  Something where there's a pattern of crime that you, as a parent, can't stop and it's out of control. 

I'm not a parent though, my opinion may be null and void.

[jammindude]

For any crime, regardless of severity?

I’m having a difficult time coming up with a scenario where I wouldn’t.

I mean…jaywalking maybe I would just counsel him not to do it, and if he was caught doing it he would deserve whatever came his way.  But we’re all the way down to simply jaywalking now. Is that an actual “crime” or is it more classified as an “infraction”?

[WilliamMunny]

Depends

If the child is a threat to society, I would feel it is my duty to turn over my child.  Something like murder or rape. 

If we are talking victimless crimes, I doubt it, but I guess there can be situations.  Things like illegal drug abuse that gets so bad that you have to put the kid away, (Maybe not jail in that case though).  Something where there's a pattern of crime that you, as a parent, can't stop and it's out of control. 

I'm not a parent though, my opinion may be null and void.

I think this (at least, for me) changes everything.

To Dave's original post, I was wholly unprepared for the feelings that being a father have inspired. I like to think I am a 'good' person, but the second something is in conflict with my family (especially my children), I become irrational, emotional, and dangerously protective. I've yet to have an experience where I seriously lost control, but I've seen enough to know that my grace with the rest of humanity is 100% contingent on the safety and well-being of my children.

I 'like' to think that, if the situation were seriously enough, I would do the 'right' and moral thing, but my desire to protect and defend my children is an untamed beast at this point.

Um, yeah, let's go with 'it depends' 

[Chino]

I’m having a difficult time coming up with a scenario where I wouldn’t.

I mean…jaywalking maybe I would just counsel him not to do it, and if he was caught doing it he would deserve whatever came his way.  But we’re all the way down to simply jaywalking now. Is that an actual “crime” or is it more classified as an “infraction”?

How about if you found a video on your teen's phone of them of them and their friends knocking a neighbor's mailbox off its post with a bat?

[El Barto]

How about if you found a video on your teen's phone of them of them and their friends knocking a neighbor's mailbox off its post with a bat?

Sounds like a good teaching moment. Have them apologize, in person, and either repair or replace the thing themselves. The other kids could either participate or not, but my boy's on the hook either way. If they don't participate and leave him high and dry, that's a second, even better teaching moment.

However, I think the spirit of the OP was something that would likely mean serious consequences, if not outright jail/prison time.

[Zantera]

It's an interesting hypothetical that really mostly boils down to the crime itself in my opinion. There's quite a big difference between learning your kid didn't pay their taxes properly or learning they're a pedophile with multiple offenses.

[cramx3]

Sounds like a good teaching moment. Have them apologize, in person, and either repair or replace the thing themselves. The other kids could either participate or not, but my boy's on the hook either way. If they don't participate and leave him high and dry, that's a second, even better teaching moment.

However, I think the spirit of the OP was something that would likely mean serious consequences, if not outright jail/prison time.

Yeah, I think the vast majority of crimes could be treated as learning experiences that don't require the police.  This is a fine example.

When I was very young, I stole candy from the super market.  Just put it in my pocket when my mom was checking out.  In the car, my mom saw I had the candy and made me go inside and apologize and I got punished (I think, I don't really remember, maybe I was spanked).  Lesson was learned. 

I really struggle to think I'd hold my child safe if they murdered someone though.  I'm not talking manslaughter, I'm talking flat out cold blooded murder.  I think I may actually be scared for myself if I had a murderer in my house, even if it was my child.  But yeah, without being a parent, those emotions may be way different.

[pg1067]

What I do want is to hear some opinions from parents and non-parents alike on whether there are any circumstances in which you can see yourselves shopping your own kid to the cops.

ANY circumstances is really broad.  That being the case, the answer is absolutely yes.

Of course, being a lawyer, I'd have some other potential issues to deal with.  For example, if one of my kids came to me and said, "he dad, I need your legal input on a situation," and then spilled his/her guts about something, I'd be legally prohibited from disclosing what I was told.

really mostly boils down to the crime itself in my opinion. There's quite a big difference between learning your kid didn't pay their taxes properly or learning they're a pedophile with multiple offenses.

Yup (and I'll be shocked if the middle option doesn't end up with about 5x as many votes as the other two combined).

[XJDenton]

Depends on just how many carts they left in the parking lot outside the corral.

[jammindude]

How about if you found a video on your teen's phone of them of them and their friends knocking a neighbor's mailbox off its post with a bat?

I would totally find the neighbor and make my kid personally apologize and offer to work to compensate for the damage. I would think that the neighbor would accept this arrangement without pressing charges. But if he did choose to press charges, I would tell my kid, “play stupid games, win stupid prizes.”

Obviously, I would also attempt to help him through the process.

[Dave_Manchester]

I think this (at least, for me) changes everything.

To Dave's original post, I was wholly unprepared for the feelings that being a father have inspired. I like to think I am a 'good' person, but the second something is in conflict with my family (especially my children), I become irrational, emotional, and dangerously protective. I've yet to have an experience where I seriously lost control, but I've seen enough to know that my grace with the rest of humanity is 100% contingent on the safety and well-being of my children.

I 'like' to think that, if the situation were seriously enough, I would do the 'right' and moral thing, but my desire to protect and defend my children is an untamed beast at this point.

Yep, that's exactly where I'm at. It's weird and a little scary how there are moments in early fatherhead that strip away all the 21st century civilisation from this little reptilian brain we all have.

I think I've settled, for me, on the best scenario that gets to the heart of my question: manslaughter. Let's say my kid, when she's about 19 or 20 (in other words on the cusp of starting her adult life) loses concentration one night while driving home and accidently kills someone. A tragic accident with no premeditation, committed by an otherwise good and useful member of society. Let's further say it's in my power to provide an alibi*. Obviously the civilised me knows at every level of my being - intellectual, moral, ethical, social, legal - that the right thing to do is turn her in, no matter if she'll face life-changing jail time. It's owed to the loved ones of whoever was killed. But...I look at her now, at 2 and a half, and think "f*ck that, I never could". It's a purely primitive reaction that I suppose will fade away as she grows up and becomes a more independent person.


*anyone here seen the Robert De Niro/Dustin Hoffman/Brad Pitt movie Sleepers? Similar kind of question is asked. Some boys grow up to commit murder (as revenge for childhood abuse) and a priest (De Niro) and lawyers (Hoffman and Pitt) face the question of whether to conspire to get them off the hook. 
     

[Stadler]

Yep, that's exactly where I'm at. It's weird and a little scary how there are moments in early fatherhead that strip away all the 21st century civilisation from this little reptilian brain we all have.

I think I've settled, for me, on the best scenario that gets to the heart of my question: manslaughter. Let's say my kid, when she's about 19 or 20 (in other words on the cusp of starting her adult life) loses concentration one night while driving home and accidently kills someone. A tragic accident with no premeditation, committed by an otherwise good and useful member of society. Let's further say it's in my power to provide an alibi*. Obviously the civilised me knows at every level of my being - intellectual, moral, ethical, social, legal - that the right thing to do is turn her in, no matter if she'll face life-changing jail time. It's owed to the loved ones of whoever was killed. But...I look at her now, at 2 and a half, and think "f*ck that, I never could". It's a purely primitive reaction that I suppose will fade away as she grows up and becomes a more independent person.


*anyone here seen the Robert De Niro/Dustin Hoffman/Brad Pitt movie Sleepers? Similar kind of question is asked. Some boys grow up to commit murder (as revenge for childhood abuse) and a priest (De Niro) and lawyer (Hoffman) face the question of whether to conspire to get them off the hook. 
     

I'm not saying it won't but I'm saying you can't assume.  My little 2 1/2 year old is now 23 and living in London, and I'm not sure I disagree with a thing you wrote. It's different, I know, in that she's of the age of majority and there are different rules in play, but knowing her goals and dreams, etc., it hasn't changed for me as much as you might think.   

I'm not on the various social media platforms, but my wife is; she doesn't "stalk" the kids, but keeps tabs, let's phrase it that way, and saw my daughter made a post and some GOIOAM ("Guy of indeterminate origin and motive" started posting about how beautiful she was, etc. etc. and everything William Munny said came into focus.  If his profile is to be believed, he lives in... let's just say that it's a country Seal Team Six is familiar with (and let's be clear, else anyone ass, you, me, the hackles were raised before I ever knew where he lived)... and I was ready to board a plane if need be.

[jammindude]

While I get the need to protect and care for my children, I’ve always viewed my role as a guide and teacher first. Obviously this should be done with the balance of heart and mind.  But if I do not teach my child right from wrong (and by extension, the principle that there are consequences for your own actions) then I have wholly failed to benefit them in any way.

[WilliamMunny]

While I get the need to protect and care for my children, I’ve always viewed my role as a guide and teacher first. Obviously this should be done with the balance of heart and mind.  But if I do not teach my child right from wrong (and by extension, the principle that there are consequences for your own actions) then I have wholly failed to benefit them in any way.

I could not agree more with this. Let me be clear (since I've written at length on this in previous posts)...you are RIGHT, and I am very wrong.

I am of a mind to agree with what Dave just posted, and if I were to someday aid in covering up, well, anything, then I would be in the wrong by every measure of the word.

But...and this is all a big hypothetical...I can't help but 'feel' that my impulse is to protect first, and teach second. If I was in Abraham's shoes, I'd certainly have said 'hell no! You wanna test me, then test me. But don't you dare get between me and my son.'

Jammin–I could not respect your position more (honestly, you have always come off as thoughtful and with conviction in your posts), and I am definitely going to ruminate on your perspective here.

[Dave_Manchester]

Let me put a less serious slant on the question, with entirely different dynamics at play. Your dear 92 year old pa, a cantankerous old bastard but you cherish him dearly, doesn't have much longer to go on this side of the grass and has decided to go out with a bang by pilfering a couple of 6 packs from the local Walmart. He's been wanting to do it ever since the big chains put his grocery store out of business in the 70s. Are you shopping him to the fuzz or cracking open one of those beers with him?