DT16 Timeline Thread - Presumably somewhere in Post-Production

[hefdaddy42]

what the fuck is raw dog? the last several pages of this thread read like a weird fan fic

EDIT: I googled it and it's apparently a song DT put in a video game, lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6OfqGvliyw

Nah, it's worse than that.  It's a song DT wrote and recorded for a digital promo for a video game.  It's not actually in the game itself.

[Adami]

Nah, it's worse than that.  It's a song DT wrote and recorded for a digital promo for a video game.  It's not actually in the game itself.

Really? I don't play video games but I truly assumed it made the game. That's actually really surprising.

[Metro]

Nah, none of the songs were in the game. It was just a promotional thing for Roadrunner Records artists.

[Buddyhunter1]

I for one think that the God Of War III soundtrack would have greatly benefited from regular-ass Trivium and Killswitch Engage songs being thrown into the mix.

[porcacultor]

Will check it out! Thanks!

I did some digging, and I came across an article that MP wrote right around that time that gives a lot of back history and insight to the creation of RD. Definitely worth reading. The turn around time *was* very fast (1 week) and from MP's description, it does sound like JM played his parts, even though his tweet implies otherwise.
https://web.archive.org/web/20100228162923/http://decibelmagazine.com/Content.aspx?ncid=359656

Very cool article, thanks for the find! The version with samples at the end must've sounded pretty cool (it's been a while since we had DT tracks with extraneous samples included, I think).

[Madman Shepherd]

Can anybody explain why they don't actually like this song? I just relistened to it for the first time in a while and while I don't think it is a top tier song, it's got many of the elements that most people like. Yeah it's grittier and heavier than a lot of stuff. I also don't think the recording  is particularly good but other than that its a decent instrumental.

[jammindude]

Speaking only for myself, I can say that the keyboard patches at the beginning of the song nearly instantly turned me off. It took me a long time to even listen to the song all the way through. But once I get past that intro, it's actually pretty good. But I imagine that starting off with that keyboard patch (which is simply dreadful) probably gets people off on the wrong foot.

[hefdaddy42]

Can anybody explain why they don't actually like this song? I just relistened to it for the first time in a while and while I don't think it is a top tier song, it's got many of the elements that most people like. Yeah it's grittier and heavier than a lot of stuff. I also don't think the recording  is particularly good but other than that its a decent instrumental.

I mean, there's nothing in it that I like?

It's not like my default is liking everything.  There has to be something appealing to me in it for me to like it.  I find nothing of the sort in this song.  If other people like it, then great, but I find it borderline repellent.

[Madman Shepherd]

I mean, there's nothing in it that I like?

It's not like my default is liking everything.  There has to be something appealing to me in it for me to like it.  I find nothing of the sort in this song.  If other people like it, then great, but I find it borderline repellent.

Interesting. I mean, when it comes to DT my default is to like things. There's a good chance I'm going to like the riffs, the compositions, the vocals etc. Occasionally my appreciation gets "swwwwwwwept awaaaay with the tiiiiide" and I cringe but there are very few songs I am repelled by and I can normally sum up what I don't like.

[Setlist Scotty]

It's not like my default is liking everything.

Maybe not liking everything, but being a DT fan, and even a mod at a DT forum, isn't it safe to say that your general default *is* to like what DT releases? So for something DT did to be abhorrent to you, there must be something exceptional.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

Nah, it's worse than that.  It's a song DT wrote and recorded for a digital promo for a video game.  It's not actually in the game itself.

Incredible, lol

[Trav]

I can definitely say that but isn't my default to like everything from any band.  DT is without a doubt my favorite band, and there is a whole album plus a handful or so of other songs that I genuinely do not like. And I can say that about most of my favorite bands.

As for Raw Dog...it's one of those songs.  That disjointed sounding riff and the keyboard sound that is like a car alarm going off. I can't get past the first few seconds. I think I've listened to it in its entirety maybe twice.

Edit: I listened to it again. The guitar solo is rippin'. So there's that.

[Lonk]

Raw Dog is better than Enigma Machine....There I said it.

[Trav]

I can definitely say that but isn't my default to like everything from any band.  DT is without a doubt my favorite band, and there is a whole album plus a handful or so of other songs that I genuinely do not like. And I can say that about most of my favorite bands.

As for Raw Dog...it's one of those songs.  That disjointed sounding riff and the keyboard sound that is like a car alarm going off. I can't get past the first few seconds. I think I've listened to it in its entirety maybe twice.

Edit: I listened to it again. The guitar solo is rippin'. So there's that.

You know what. I've listened to it three times since I posted this. I hadn't heard it since it came out, so well over a decade. I gotta admit...I kinda like it. I think it would be cool if they played it. I doubt it will happen, but it would be cool.

[hefdaddy42]

Maybe not liking everything, but being a DT fan, and even a mod at a DT forum, isn't it safe to say that your general default *is* to like what DT releases? So for something DT did to be abhorrent to you, there must be something exceptional.

I mean, it's exceptionally bad, IMO.

No inspiration involved in it.  They didn't even sit down and compose it.  They found some old leftover pieces from previous writing/recording sessions, fit them together in a way that was allegedly cohesive (although not really, not to my ears), and recorded that and called it a day.  Myung wasn't involved, and neither was LaBrie.  In the list of all DT songs, this allegedly is one, but for my tastes, it has no redeeming value.  At all.

But it didn't hit my mother or anything.  It's a song.  Whatever.

No, I don't have a default setting of "like" for ANYTHING.  For me to like something, it has to be likeworthy, including all of DT's output.  No free passes here.  DT is my favorite band, Stephen King is my favorite writer, Spielberg is my favorite director, and all of them have produced things I don't like.

[TAC]

Raw Dog is better than Enigma Machine....There I said it.

Easily, and Hell's Kitchen, and on most days, I'm taking it over Stream Of Consciousness, which is just way too long for what it is. I guess they wanted to do a Metallica style instrumental, but Metallica instrumentals blow.

[Buddyhunter1]

Raw Dog is better than Enigma Machine....There I said it.

Easily, and Hell's Kitchen, and on most days, I'm taking it over Stream Of Consciousness, which is just way too long for what it is. I guess they wanted to do a Metallica style instrumental, but Metallica instrumentals blow.

I can agree with SoC being a bit too long, but there's no universe where Raw Dog is better than any of those songs, god fucking damn.

[hefdaddy42]

I can agree with SoC being a bit too long, but there's no universe where Raw Dog is better than any of those songs, god fucking damn.

All of this

But hey, opinions vary.

[bosk1]

Regarding touring and set lists, we all know that Mike's approach was building a tour legacy that the die-hard fan would love, and he wrote set lists like works of art to make shows or tours as appealing and exciting as possible for the those die-hards.  From talking with JP, and from reading things he has said through the years, I definitely think he also values that approach in the abstract, but he's a bit more conservative in that regard and is more prone to shy away from things the crowd doesn't seem to respond to.  It's not that he isn't willing to take risks.  After all, look at some of the sets they put together during the MM era that included things like Space Dye Vest and Don't Look Past Me.  I remember when he showed me the planned set list for the I&WAB tour, and he was absolutely giddy about things like having DLPM in the set and having TDEN as a set opener.  But I think he's more worried about fans not being engaged, which is why he pulled the plug on DLPM, for example, or why he is a bit more resistant to play some obscure songs or songs he has seen not get a good crowd reaction.  While his and MP's thought processes are different in that regard, I think they are both pretty good philosophies for constructing a set.  Definitely better than many bands who go out and just mostly play the hits and maybe just sprinkle in a very small dose of new material and/or deep cuts.

Nothing much to say about Raw Dog that hasn't already been said.  Other than

Raw Dog is better than Enigma Machine....There I said it.

Hey, we're all completely wrong about something, so don't feel bad.

[Wim Kruithof]

Mods throwing mud on mods, raw...

[evilasiojr]

I've always enjoyed listening to Raw Dog, for me it's just funand, I do find Enigma Machine one of DT's worst songs, so... 

And that article was an interesting read, thanks!

[pg1067]

Never has such a mediocre piece of music generated so much discussion!

Can anybody explain why they don't actually like this song?

This is probably my 4th time listening to this song.  As I sit here right now (before hitting play), I cannot recall anything about the song.  Here goes...

Heavy intro...it's ok...nothing special.  What the hell is this syncopated sound?  Kinda sounds like a car that won't start.  This is annoying AF.  OK...now we've got a generic choir patch int he background.  This chuggy, low B section has gone on too long.  A change around 1:25.  A bit more straightforward.  A very basic keyboard pattern.  Nothing special.  Too much chugging on the low strings for my taste.  Another change around 2:12.  This is a bit more interesting.  Is that real bass (with wah?) or synth?  Back to the chugging.  Yawn...  Now at 3:20.  This really seems like a collection of random riffs played in succession.  A guitar solo now.  It's fine.  The bed is a big nothingburger.  Wank...wank...  Now keyboards.  Still 3 minutes left.  Ugh....  Now JR seems to be playing his iPad or something.  Ooh...that's kind of a cool riff at 5:06.  More of this would have been nice.  And now we get the Jordan Rudess video game circus sound.  Back to the low chugging and the "car" that won't start.  At the risk of sounding like Doug Helvering, this high-in-the-mix double bass is annoying.  And they've added the "car" to it.  Yech...  They seem to be layering everything at this point.  This last 45 seconds or so is a total mess.  And what was that ending?  Did someone just drop the mouse on a random spot and cut everything after it?

So...there you go.  That was so generic and poorly arranged.  Virtually nothing memorable, and only about 30-40 seconds of it was really appealing.  I'll admit that I'm not a fan of chuggy riffs on the low B string (or even lower).  I won't go so far as to call it repellent, but it's not something I'd go out of my way to listen to, except for purposes of discussion's sake.

Easily, and Hell's Kitchen, and on most days, I'm taking it over Stream Of Consciousness, which is just way too long for what it is. I guess they wanted to do a Metallica style instrumental, but Metallica instrumentals blow.

Ummm...what?  Call of Ktulu and Orion are epic.  Even To Live Is to Die is ok.  And Stream of Consciousness is one of the best things written by any band ever (I had it at #11 in the recent countdown).

[Metro]

Nobody asked, but the "car" sounding thing in the intro that everybody seems to hate so much is an instrument called the Harpejji.
https://youtu.be/ItPJQFCpc5g?si=slIJbKkWKWbLtxal

[gzarruk]

Nobody asked, but the "car" sounding thing in the intro that everybody seems to hate so much is an instrument called the Harpejji.
https://youtu.be/ItPJQFCpc5g?si=slIJbKkWKWbLtxal

IIRC, the Harpejji was only used for the solo section and nothing else.

[Setlist Scotty]

No inspiration involved in it.  They didn't even sit down and compose it.  They found some old leftover pieces from previous writing/recording sessions, fit them together in a way that was allegedly cohesive (although not really, not to my ears), and recorded that and called it a day.  Myung wasn't involved, and neither was LaBrie.  In the list of all DT songs, this allegedly is one, but for my tastes, it has no redeeming value.  At all.

You're entitled to your opinion, but before you say the above, I encourage you to look at the old article that I posted above, because it explains everything aside from perhaps JM not being involved, even that's up for debate as to how much or little he was involved since there hasn't been anything stated concretely that he wasn't involved. As for inspiration, from MP's words, it sounds like they were quite inspired and it wasn't simply just taking leftover pieces and that's it; only a small part of the song was actually leftover ideas. And again, even *that* doesn't mean they weren't good parts, but just that they hadn't found a good place to use them in the songs that they were writing. Nothing more, nothing less.

[TAC]

  And Stream of Consciousness is one of the best things written by any band ever (I had it at #11 in the recent countdown).

[dparrott]

Throw a part of Raw Dog into an instrumedley.  Problem solved.  If you like the song, you get your taste.  If you don't like it, at least it's short!

And Enigma Machine is way better!

[Metro]

It'd be hard to work it into a medley. It's in ADGCFAD tuning, and the only other song in that tuning is Illumination Theory.

[TAC]

It'd be hard to work it into a medley. It's in ADGCFAD tuning, and the only other song in that tuning is Illumination Theory.

Good. Replace that ridiculous mellow orchestra section and insert Raw Dog.

[The Letter M]

Good. Replace that ridiculous mellow orchestra section and insert Raw Dog.

Call it "Shmedley Rawcox".

-Marc.

[HOF]

Can anybody explain why they don't actually like this song? I just relistened to it for the first time in a while and while I don't think it is a top tier song, it's got many of the elements that most people like. Yeah it's grittier and heavier than a lot of stuff. I also don't think the recording  is particularly good but other than that its a decent instrumental.

Have never heard it, but this seems like a good enough explanation!

[The Letter M]

Regarding the fact that the God Of War: Blood & Metal EP had six* songs that weren't even IN the games, I've been wondering - did any of the other bands that contributed songs ever play those songs live? Or maybe there's a rights issue that prevents them from playing them? AFAIK, they were all artists on Roadrunner Records at the time, so maybe there's something relating to that if none of these bands have ever played their song live before.

For the curious, here's the track listing:
1. "My Obsession" by Killswitch Engage
2. "Shattering The Skies Above" by Trivium
3. "Raw Dog" by Dream Theater
4. "This Is Madness" by Taking Dawn
5. "The Throat Of Winter" by Opeth
6. "The End" by Mutiny Within
7. "Even Gods Cry" by The Turtlenecks*

*Apparently this song was also included on the EP but was only released as a bonus download with purchase of the Ultimate Edition set of God Of War III.

-Marc.

[Metro]

Opeth and Trivium have both played their songs live.

[Madman Shepherd]

Raw Dog is better than Enigma Machine....There I said it.

As a Raw Dog apologist, pleae allow me to inform you you're incorrect.

Now if you said Raw Dog is better than Dance of Eternity, you'd be onto something.

Never has such a mediocre piece of music generated so much discussion!


This is probably my 4th time listening to this song.  As I sit here right now (before hitting play), I cannot recall anything about the song.  Here goes...

Heavy intro...it's ok...nothing special.  What the hell is this syncopated sound?  Kinda sounds like a car that won't start.  This is annoying AF.  OK...now we've got a generic choir patch int he background.  This chuggy, low B section has gone on too long.  A change around 1:25.  A bit more straightforward.  A very basic keyboard pattern.  Nothing special.  Too much chugging on the low strings for my taste.  Another change around 2:12.  This is a bit more interesting.  Is that real bass (with wah?) or synth?  Back to the chugging.  Yawn...  Now at 3:20.  This really seems like a collection of random riffs played in succession.  A guitar solo now.  It's fine.  The bed is a big nothingburger.  Wank...wank...  Now keyboards.  Still 3 minutes left.  Ugh....  Now JR seems to be playing his iPad or something.  Ooh...that's kind of a cool riff at 5:06.  More of this would have been nice.  And now we get the Jordan Rudess video game circus sound.  Back to the low chugging and the "car" that won't start.  At the risk of sounding like Doug Helvering, this high-in-the-mix double bass is annoying.  And they've added the "car" to it.  Yech...  They seem to be layering everything at this point.  This last 45 seconds or so is a total mess.  And what was that ending?  Did someone just drop the mouse on a random spot and cut everything after it?

So...there you go.  That was so generic and poorly arranged.  Virtually nothing memorable, and only about 30-40 seconds of it was really appealing.  I'll admit that I'm not a fan of chuggy riffs on the low B string (or even lower).  I won't go so far as to call it repellent, but it's not something I'd go out of my way to listen to, except for purposes of discussion's sake.


Ummm...what?  Call of Ktulu and Orion are epic.  Even To Live Is to Die is ok.  And Stream of Consciousness is one of the best things written by any band ever (I had it at #11 in the recent countdown).

I asked for an explanation, not a novella! 

But seriously, thanks for the novella. In your summation, you kind of explained what I figured some people's problems were with it. Fair enough.

[devieira73]

Good. Replace that ridiculous mellow orchestra section and insert Raw Dog.

Imagine that happening!