Dropping the tuning of songs to help Labrie out?

[jammindude]

On record, maybe. Live, I'm not a fan.  I always get the impression he's phoning it in.

Agreed. I saw him on the GGG tour in 87 and I was pretty disappointed. Whitesnake (the opener) was a lot better. It was too bad too because I went in with high hopes. I had actually thought a little more than half their stuff was pretty decent (and at that time, it was probably true). I absolutely stand by the first two as being amazing albums from start to finish.


EDIT - I want to add that even on those two albums, which I love, I’ve always thought Vince was the weakest link. He hits some really sour notes on On With the Show that still make me cringe.

[TAC]

He hits some really sour notes on On With the Show that still make me cringe.

C'mon J-dude, no no no.

[jammindude]

He hits some really sour notes on On With the Show that still make me cringe.

C'mon J-dude, no no no.

It’s very telling that you knew exactly which note it was.

[jimgolf]

He hits some really sour notes on On With the Show that still make me cringe.

C'mon J-dude, no no no.

It’s very telling that you knew exactly which note it was.

I went and listened to the song. It did not disappoint 

[Stadler]

One other thing that Jammin' I think will appreciate (and maybe Tim).  I'm east coast, New York.   The whole Leathur Records thing with the first album, and the initial mix, then the re-release when the second album sort of did something...   that was Twisted Sister for me.   Their first record - produced by Pete Way - had a weird initial mix, then when the second - You Can't Stop Rock 'n' Roll - did something, the first was remixed and re-released... It's like they were an east/west coast version of each other.  Somehow Sister imploded, and Crüe didn't.  Maybe it's because Dee Snider is by far the best part of Twisted Sister but the rest are sort of pedestrian, whereas Crüe is the opposite.  Or maybe it's because Tommy's shlong is, well, shlonger.   

But for me, I way more rather listen to Dee Snider - studio or live - than Vince Neil. 

[TAC]

One other thing that Jammin' I think will appreciate (and maybe Tim).  I'm east coast, New York.   The whole Leathur Records thing with the first album, and the initial mix, then the re-release when the second album sort of did something...   that was Twisted Sister for me.   Their first record - produced by Pete Way - had a weird initial mix, then when the second - You Can't Stop Rock 'n' Roll - did something, the first was remixed and re-released... It's like they were an east/west coast version of each other.  Somehow Sister imploded, and Crüe didn't.  Maybe it's because Dee Snider is by far the best part of Twisted Sister but the rest are sort of pedestrian, whereas Crüe is the opposite.  Or maybe it's because Tommy's shlong is, well, shlonger.   

But for me, I way more rather listen to Dee Snider - studio or live - than Vince Neil.

I didn't hear Motley Crue until the Elektra release in 1982. The radio station in Providence (94 HJY) had a show on Sunday nights called Fresh Tracks, where for an hour, they played 3 or 4 songs from a new release. I recorded the Motley Crue tracks. (I think they were Live Wire, Piece Of your Action and I can't remember what else).

Somehow Motley eluded the clownshow image that Twisted Sister garnered.

[Stadler]

One other thing that Jammin' I think will appreciate (and maybe Tim).  I'm east coast, New York.   The whole Leathur Records thing with the first album, and the initial mix, then the re-release when the second album sort of did something...   that was Twisted Sister for me.   Their first record - produced by Pete Way - had a weird initial mix, then when the second - You Can't Stop Rock 'n' Roll - did something, the first was remixed and re-released... It's like they were an east/west coast version of each other.  Somehow Sister imploded, and Crüe didn't.  Maybe it's because Dee Snider is by far the best part of Twisted Sister but the rest are sort of pedestrian, whereas Crüe is the opposite.  Or maybe it's because Tommy's shlong is, well, shlonger.   

But for me, I way more rather listen to Dee Snider - studio or live - than Vince Neil.

I didn't hear Motley Crue until the Elektra release in 1982. The radio station in Providence (94 HJY) had a show on Sunday nights called Fresh Tracks, where for an hour, they played 3 or 4 songs from a new release. I recorded the Motley Crue tracks. (I think they were Live Wire, Piece Of your Action and I can't remember what else).

Somehow Motley eluded the clownshow image that Twisted Sister garnered.

And that may be the difference; they both had the makeup, but whereas Motley had Nikki Sixx dying on Sunset Boulevard and Vince Neil crashing his Ferrari on a beer run, Twisted had Dee Snider eating a Fred Flintstone bone and "Is that a PLEDGE PIN on your UNIFORM?" videos.   Hell, even I checked out of that for a while in '85, '86.  Between TS and Ozzy becoming a joke, it's no wonder I got into prog around that time.

[Cool Chris]

Twisted had Dee Snider eating a Fred Flintstone bone and "Is that a PLEDGE PIN on your UNIFORM?" videos. 

The Maestro?

[wolfking]

WTF is a Yugo?

[jammindude]

WTF is a Yugo?

 

[wolfking]

WTF is a Yugo?

 

[Glasser]

Is that like "what the fuck is a frush?" 

[Dream Team]

See, the difference between Gillan or Dickinson or whoever and Labrie is (and I’m sure the majority will agree) they just don’t sound as frickin WEIRD or cringey as James does when they’re off. You know, stuff like constantly putting a W in front of every vowel: “Wi’m alive again, darkness far behind me, Wi’m invincible . . .”. That kind of stuff is just so annoying and distracting, much more so than someone just not hitting a note quite right or high enough.

[Skeever]

See, the difference between Gillan or Dickinson or whoever and Labrie is (and I’m sure the majority will agree) they just don’t sound as frickin WEIRD or cringey as James does when they’re off. You know, stuff like constantly putting a W in front of every vowel: “Wi’m alive again, darkness far behind me, Wi’m invincible . . .”. That kind of stuff is just so annoying and distracting, much more so than someone just not hitting a note quite right or high enough.

I think James LaBrie sounds so much better than Gillan. Way, way, way better, in fact.
Dickinson, of course, is not a fair comparison. Those songs are more about energy and the occasional operatic than they are about navigating a tricky vocal passage in an odd time signature the way James does. Bruce is one of my favorite singers, but Iron Maiden melodies are way more simple than Dream Theater ones, and the crowd sing for Bruce half of the time.

[TAC]

I don't think Gillan ever sounded good.


Bruce is amazing, but his performance has basically rendered the Mexico City live album unlistenable.

[Stadler]

I don't think Gillan ever sounded good.


Bruce is amazing, but his performance has basically rendered the Mexico City live album unlistenable.

Except in the first couple years of Deep Purple, Ian's voice isn't about power or holding notes, his TONE is sort of an acquired taste.  He was singing Child In Time as late as the 2000's and he hit the notes, but his voice acquired a reediness by the time they reunited.   Sometimes Bruce can be like that too. Being able to hit a high note doesn't mean that the note will be pleasant.  And I guess that's the same with James; but if you listen to the live Number of the Beast, he hits all the notes, but that doesn't mean that it sounds as good as when Bruce does it, because the tone and tenor is not the same.   I think the fact that James sings in such a high register even on the good days makes that more of a high wire to walk on.

I mean, I don't hear a ton of difference between the three when they get all screechy.  None of it is all that pleasant to be honest.  I don't listen to Mexico either; that's in part because I saw Hartford not long before and Bruce was on top of his game (confirmed by an HD video I later found of that exact show I saw). 

[WilliamMunny]

Biggest JLB fan you'll meet, and my take has long been this: rather than tune down (a half-step isn't going to make all that big of a difference when it comes to a bad night), why not change the vocal melodies to accommodate.

And, that's exactly what he's been doing (at least on the last tour). Songs like 6:00 sound so much better the way he approached them on this past tour.

Now, as for the OP's point on Pull Me Under—I haven't heard a recent version, but traditionally, that second verse has been giving him fits since the late '90s. I have long wondered why he just didn't sing it an octave lower.

The best analog I can find for JLB is Geddy Lee. Long derided for his vocals by casual/radio fans (I can't tell you how many times I've heard 'Rush would be great if they had a different singer'), I think Geddy did a wonderful job of accommodating his limited range during their final two decades live.

Obviously, we all have different takes on this, but for this guy, as long as the band is playing and having fun, I could care less how they alter the songs. A solid performance of Pull Me Under with James singing the whole thing an octave lower is a-okay in my book.

[SeRoX]

See, the difference between Gillan or Dickinson or whoever and Labrie is (and I’m sure the majority will agree) they just don’t sound as frickin WEIRD or cringey as James does when they’re off. You know, stuff like constantly putting a W in front of every vowel: “Wi’m alive again, darkness far behind me, Wi’m invincible . . .”. That kind of stuff is just so annoying and distracting, much more so than someone just not hitting a note quite right or high enough.

I don't know if we listen same singers, maybe you put your personal thought in it but even prime Gillan was not good and not a powerhouse and yes  Dickinson is a great frontman but not a great singer lately both studio and live. The thing is about Dickinson is he is loyal to exact vocal melodies the band wrote and mind that I don't find IR vocals are that hard but James always goes extra for live and that usually doesn't end well.

[Glasser]

See, the difference between Gillan or Dickinson or whoever and Labrie is (and I’m sure the majority will agree) they just don’t sound as frickin WEIRD or cringey as James does when they’re off. You know, stuff like constantly putting a W in front of every vowel: “Wi’m alive again, darkness far behind me, Wi’m invincible . . .”. That kind of stuff is just so annoying and distracting, much more so than someone just not hitting a note quite right or high enough.

I don't know if we listen same singers, maybe you put your personal thought in it but even prime Gillan was not good and not a powerhouse and yes  Dickinson is a great frontman but not a great singer lately both studio and live. The thing is about Dickinson is he is loyal to exact vocal melodies the band wrote and mind that I don't find IR vocals are that hard but James always goes extra for live and that usually doesn't end well.

[Stadler]

See, the difference between Gillan or Dickinson or whoever and Labrie is (and I’m sure the majority will agree) they just don’t sound as frickin WEIRD or cringey as James does when they’re off. You know, stuff like constantly putting a W in front of every vowel: “Wi’m alive again, darkness far behind me, Wi’m invincible . . .”. That kind of stuff is just so annoying and distracting, much more so than someone just not hitting a note quite right or high enough.

I don't know if we listen same singers, maybe you put your personal thought in it but even prime Gillan was not good and not a powerhouse and yes  Dickinson is a great frontman but not a great singer lately both studio and live. The thing is about Dickinson is he is loyal to exact vocal melodies the band wrote and mind that I don't find IR vocals are that hard but James always goes extra for live and that usually doesn't end well.

Ooh, I don't know if that's true or not; there are some shows from '72 where he's every bit the equal of Blackmore, Lord and Paice (three of the best musicians on their instruments in rock).

[Kwyjibo]

One may not like Gillan but calling him not good even in his prime is just silly.

[SeRoX]

Yeah, silly of me. bad wording. I can't deny some of his prime live performance are tasteful but inconsistent in that era too. Same goes for Geddy Lee (for many that I can't name right now). I still enjoy watching old videos of them time to time.

[Samsara]

I'm here for the Yugo commentary.

 

Had a classmate of mine in law school who had one of these. Drove it from New Orleans to Boston and had that thing all three years. Whenever I said something, he was like "dude, I paid 50 bucks for this thing, it's easy to fix, and great on gas." Smart guy.

Yugos for the win.

[TAC]

Let's just say that whatever they say that you cannot do in a Yugo...I proved them all wrong.

One night while "parking" I had lowered my driver's side seat so it laid kind of flat. The problem was, it wouldn't go back up. I literally drove about 30 miles as if I was sitting on a bench with no back.

I've also told this story here before, but one day when I was in college, I went out to my car and found it SIDEWAYS in my parking spot.

Being that there were cars parked on both sides, I got a few of my friends and we picked it up and straightened it out.

[Samsara]

Let's just say that whatever they say that you cannot do in a Yugo...I proved them all wrong.

One night while "parking" I had lowered my driver's side seat so it laid kind of flat. The problem was, it wouldn't go back up. I literally drove about 30 miles as if I was sitting on a bench with no back.

I've also told this story here before, but one day when I was in college, I went out to my car and found it SIDEWAYS in my parking spot.

Being that there were cars parked on both sides, I got a few of my friends and we picked it up and straightened it out.

CLASSIC!

We used to pick up my buddy's during snow storms and move it to the road. Less hassle for six of us to do that, rather than shovel.

[wolfking]

Huh....I never would have guessed that a Yugo is a car.  I learned something today.

[Dream Team]

See, the difference between Gillan or Dickinson or whoever and Labrie is (and I’m sure the majority will agree) they just don’t sound as frickin WEIRD or cringey as James does when they’re off. You know, stuff like constantly putting a W in front of every vowel: “Wi’m alive again, darkness far behind me, Wi’m invincible . . .”. That kind of stuff is just so annoying and distracting, much more so than someone just not hitting a note quite right or high enough.

I think James LaBrie sounds so much better than Gillan. Way, way, way better, in fact.
Dickinson, of course, is not a fair comparison. Those songs are more about energy and the occasional operatic than they are about navigating a tricky vocal passage in an odd time signature the way James does. Bruce is one of my favorite singers, but Iron Maiden melodies are way more simple than Dream Theater ones, and the crowd sing for Bruce half of the time.

Bruce has had to scream several Number of the Beast songs and other 80s songs EVERY SINGLE SHOW for 40 years. Thousands of shows. Not exactly a walk in the park. And I only brought up Gillan because someone else did, I should have referenced Halford instead.

[Skeever]

See, the difference between Gillan or Dickinson or whoever and Labrie is (and I’m sure the majority will agree) they just don’t sound as frickin WEIRD or cringey as James does when they’re off. You know, stuff like constantly putting a W in front of every vowel: “Wi’m alive again, darkness far behind me, Wi’m invincible . . .”. That kind of stuff is just so annoying and distracting, much more so than someone just not hitting a note quite right or high enough.

I think James LaBrie sounds so much better than Gillan. Way, way, way better, in fact.
Dickinson, of course, is not a fair comparison. Those songs are more about energy and the occasional operatic than they are about navigating a tricky vocal passage in an odd time signature the way James does. Bruce is one of my favorite singers, but Iron Maiden melodies are way more simple than Dream Theater ones, and the crowd sing for Bruce half of the time.

Bruce has had to scream several Number of the Beast songs and other 80s songs EVERY SINGLE SHOW for 40 years. Thousands of shows. Not exactly a walk in the park. And I only brought up Gillan because someone else did, I should have referenced Halford instead.

Those songs all have very easy vocal melodies. Most of The Number of the Beast is like... mostly 3 notes in the same octave range, with a few theatrics (hello reverb, crowd noise, and backing vocals). Most other Maiden songs are similar. I am a HUGE Maiden fan. This is not a knock on them at all.
Just not comparable to anything James does on a regular basis.

So many posts here about James' vocals and what people think he lacks compared to other singers. James has issues, but far more what I notice is just that people on this forum do not have the musical knowledge to really understand, comment, and fully appreciate what James does, let alone critique him. 

[Stadler]

See, the difference between Gillan or Dickinson or whoever and Labrie is (and I’m sure the majority will agree) they just don’t sound as frickin WEIRD or cringey as James does when they’re off. You know, stuff like constantly putting a W in front of every vowel: “Wi’m alive again, darkness far behind me, Wi’m invincible . . .”. That kind of stuff is just so annoying and distracting, much more so than someone just not hitting a note quite right or high enough.

I think James LaBrie sounds so much better than Gillan. Way, way, way better, in fact.
Dickinson, of course, is not a fair comparison. Those songs are more about energy and the occasional operatic than they are about navigating a tricky vocal passage in an odd time signature the way James does. Bruce is one of my favorite singers, but Iron Maiden melodies are way more simple than Dream Theater ones, and the crowd sing for Bruce half of the time.

Bruce has had to scream several Number of the Beast songs and other 80s songs EVERY SINGLE SHOW for 40 years. Thousands of shows. Not exactly a walk in the park. And I only brought up Gillan because someone else did, I should have referenced Halford instead.

Those songs all have very easy vocal melodies. Most of The Number of the Beast is like... mostly 3 notes in the same octave range, with a few theatrics (hello reverb, crowd noise, and backing vocals). Most other Maiden songs are similar. I am a HUGE Maiden fan. This is not a knock on them at all.
Just not comparable to anything James does on a regular basis.

So many posts here about James' vocals and what people think he lacks compared to other singers. James has issues, but far more what I notice is just that people on this forum do not have the musical knowledge to really understand, comment, and fully appreciate what James does, let alone critique him.

So... not arguing with you - I agree with all you wrote, actually - but devil's advocate: is that necessary?  What role does just what hits the ears play?  It's not really a discussion that Yngwie is a better guitar player, technically, than Ace, but who has touched more people?  If the material is SO technical that it gets in the way of the essential part of art, which is communication, what does that say? 

Let's assume that on the original versions in the studio, there was equal "connection".  Number of the Beast, Smoke on the Water, and Pull Me Under all touched the same number of people.  If today, in 2022, Bruce can still connect, whether he's singing simpler melodies or changing the more complicated ones, and Ian can still connect, whether he's singing simpler melodies or changing the more complicated ones, but James cannot, isn't that a factor?   I'm not saying James isn't - I actually LOVED his performance on the last tour - but that's the real question that we as fans have to ask.

[bosk1]

See, the difference between Gillan or Dickinson or whoever and Labrie is (and I’m sure the majority will agree) they just don’t sound as frickin WEIRD or cringey as James does when they’re off. You know, stuff like constantly putting a W in front of every vowel: “Wi’m alive again, darkness far behind me, Wi’m invincible . . .”. That kind of stuff is just so annoying and distracting, much more so than someone just not hitting a note quite right or high enough.

I think James LaBrie sounds so much better than Gillan. Way, way, way better, in fact.
Dickinson, of course, is not a fair comparison. Those songs are more about energy and the occasional operatic than they are about navigating a tricky vocal passage in an odd time signature the way James does. Bruce is one of my favorite singers, but Iron Maiden melodies are way more simple than Dream Theater ones, and the crowd sing for Bruce half of the time.

Bruce has had to scream several Number of the Beast songs and other 80s songs EVERY SINGLE SHOW for 40 years. Thousands of shows. Not exactly a walk in the park. And I only brought up Gillan because someone else did, I should have referenced Halford instead.

Those songs all have very easy vocal melodies. Most of The Number of the Beast is like... mostly 3 notes in the same octave range, with a few theatrics (hello reverb, crowd noise, and backing vocals). Most other Maiden songs are similar. I am a HUGE Maiden fan. This is not a knock on them at all.
Just not comparable to anything James does on a regular basis.

So many posts here about James' vocals and what people think he lacks compared to other singers. James has issues, but far more what I notice is just that people on this forum do not have the musical knowledge to really understand, comment, and fully appreciate what James does, let alone critique him.

So... not arguing with you - I agree with all you wrote, actually - but devil's advocate: is that necessary?  What role does just what hits the ears play?  ...

I think Skeever's take in his two posts is dead on.  I agree with every word.  And I think he DOES fully take into account "what hits the ears."  If you don't like how James sounds, that's fine.  But Skeever isn't saying that you have to have musical knowledge to appreciate what James does.  I think what he is saying is that a lot of the stupid and mostly baseless criticism by a vocal few just shows a lot of ignorance, Dream Team's recent pots being a recent poster child for that.  And, again, that isn't to say that James is immune from criticism.  He isn't.  And if anyone doesn't like his style, or some of the mechanics he employs, that's fine.  Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion.  But especially for a thread that expressly said in the initial post that this was NOT about bashing James, there are a few that clearly don't understand or willfully choose to ignore the wisdom of "it's not what you say; it's how you say it."

[Stadler]

Fair points. Got it.

[Skeever]

Yes... no offense to Dream Team. If you don't like James' voice, fair enough. People here have mentioned Gillan. I've never quite loved Gillan's voice. It's just not my cup of tea. To me, he was fine in his prime, but really hard for me to listen to after that. If people feel that way about James, that's fine.

But it's just frustrating to see, again and again, very baseless judgments on what James is "doing wrong" as a singer, and even more baseless comparisons to singers that really are nothing like him.

I am barely passable when it comes to music theory, but even I can sit down at the piano and play the melody to "Number of the Beast" or "The Trooper", and then play any number of James melodies, and hear how much more complex it is in terms of using more notes and range, more complicated timing/syncopation, key changes, and so on. That is why I think that you simply can not use what Bruce does as a rationale for why you feel James should sound a certain way at his age. What the two men are doing, even on their latest albums, is very different, and always has been.

[Samsara]

But especially for a thread that expressly said in the initial post that this was NOT about bashing James, there are a few that clearly don't understand or willfully choose to ignore the wisdom of "it's not what you say; it's how you say it."

This.

As the person who started this thread, I did so with the intent of drumming up support for James and acknowledging what he has to do on a nightly basis is difficult, and he's giving it his all. Finding ways so that James can maximize what he has night after night.

I almost passed on starting the thread, and likely should have, because I was concerned about it spiraling into a criticism thread. So those that are comparing Labrie to others and being critical, instead perhaps consider what I just said above, and discuss ways to help James be as consistent as I know he wants to be, night after night.

I have also noticed he's changing/flattening the melody lines in order to sing them better. Not sure that works for ME (someone mentioned 6:00...it was a little odd for me to hear it that way), but I think if they are going to keep the early-mid-90s catalog in rotation, that is going to have to be what JLB does. And I think the band needs to examine re-arranging some songs entirely from I&W and Awake to better support JLB.

[Stadler]

To Skeever and Samsara, just so you know I'm with you. I'm a fan of James, he's the reason I became a DT fan to begin with, and as I said I thought he was excellent when I saw them a couple months ago.

Here's an interesting thing:  Paul Stanley.  I'm not comparing him to James, so don't misunderstand me, but over the years, I think he's sung about five different versions of Detroit Rock City. That's one of their signature tunes, and as far back as 1980 in Australia, he has sung different melodies for the verses of that song.  As I said, with all the live stuff I have of Kiss, I think I have about five or six different versions of the song.  Some are, arguably, BETTER than the original even if they are quite different and maybe hard to get comfortable with. 

[bosk1]

No, I actually get what you are saying, and I think it's a legit comparison in the context of this thread topic.  And to take a very specific, but very limited example for James, Learning To Live on the LSFNY release is interesting.  Like many, I was instantly struck the first time I heard it by the fact that James did NOT go for the F# in Learning To Live.  But from the first time I heard it, it didn't bother me because he hit the notes he was going for in altering that melody, and he did some vamping following it that sounded really good.  Although I love it when musicians push the envelope and go for it during live performances, I also respect knowing when it's not going to happen and altering a part so that it still sounds good in the context of the song.  To me and my ears, I would much rather hear James alter a melody and go for "easier" notes if he isn't feeling like he can likely get the "big note" than to go for it and miss badly.  I've heard him--and other singers, including the likes of Bruce--go for it and go off key when missing the notes, and I prefer just altering the melody, even if it's a part that is kind of a signature climax like that F#.  I've never had the least problem with how James sings that on LSFNY, and it is actually one of my favorite versions of the song.