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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Samsara on August 25, 2022, 03:01:47 PM
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Like everyone here, I've experienced the highest of highs with James Labrie's vocals, and the lowest of lows. What I've come to expect is that given the nature of Dream Theater's songs, particularly those from the 1990s, JLB is going to have good days and bad days. His voice isn't like it once was, age has played a role, etc. It's obvious he takes care of himself and tries to get his voice in the best shape possible. A ton of effort is given, and I appreciate it.
But what I don't understand is why those harder tunes are in their original tunings. Why not drop them a half-step and make it easier on JLB to sing them?
I remember seeing an interview one time where JP scoffed at down-tuning, and the purist in me was like "hell yea." But the realist in me was like - yeah, I'd actually like to see if it sounds better, because JLB is killing himself out there and he could use a little help.
THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO BASH LABRIE. JLB goes out there and gives his all every night. I respect and admire that. And thank him. I'm just wondering why when the bands from DT's era (late-80s and onward) are helping their vocalists out by dropping the tunings of their songs to make the notes easier to sing, DT just isn't doing.
Now, on the other hand, maybe they tried it, and the songs sounded bad (Tesla comes to mind - holy crap I never need to hear Edison's Medicine like that ever again). I don't know. But after hearing Labrie sing "Pull Me Under" in Japan this month, and remembering what he sounded like at the show in Oakland on the past tour (and the I&W 25th in Oakland back in 2017), I just don't understand why Dream Theater insist on doing these songs in the original tuning. Make it easier on the singer. and drop them a little. A half-step would probably go a long way.
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1. Stubbornness
2. Delusion (“he’s good enough, the fans love him”)
3. None of it matters, he doesn’t sound too great even on the easier songs*
*may be considered controversial
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Sam, have you listened to Anthrax's XL live album (in front of nobody)?
I ask because I wonder if it's downtuned. I feel like it is, because it's just not a lively and bright as I remember these songs. I listened to it today, and I just cannot get into it.
Tesla live is unlistenable, and visually, they're even worse.
I don't know if it's the high notes so much, but James seems to be simply not as powerful across the board. That said, he is EXCELLENT on Live In Berlin.
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Rush did it for songs like 2112, but I could tell right away it was tuned down to another key and it just didn't sound right to me. Maybe that's why DT doesn't do it. :dunno:
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I thought they did do this for the I&W stuff recently. Maybe I’m wrong?
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I thought they did do this for the I&W stuff recently. Maybe I’m wrong?
Correct. All of I&W except Wait for Sleep was played down a half step on the I&W and Beyond Tour, as well as A Change of Seasons.
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I think theyve just been more careful with crafting the setlists. There are plenty of songs in the catalogue James can still sing just fine in the original tuning, so they are going with them. As a fan, I would rather hear a song more comfortable to James sung in its original key than hear something like Take The Time downtuned and altered. Rush did that with 2112 and the song just kind of loses its "oomph" - its tough to explain. Some songs just sound better in the key they were written in.
That being said, if they played Metropolis for an encore and downtuned an old fan favorite or two, it wouldn't be much of a big deal. I mean, if they really ever need to give James an extra break they can always bust out Raw Dog.
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Raw Dog will be played on the upcoming JP solo tour. Just saying.
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Downtuned music sounds weird. It was written in the original key for a reason.
Thank god Metallica at least records their studio tracks in E.
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Raw Dog will be played on the upcoming JP solo tour. Just saying.
"featuring a never-before-performed live track from the hit God of War video game soundtrack!"
(In all seriousness, its really not that bad of a song - but it is fun to poke fun at :lol )
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Downtuned music sounds weird. It was written in the original key for a reason.
This is the baseline for my thinking.
But... I don't have a problem with a band playing a song differently if they are unable to suitably perform it live as written. How "different" is where I can't decide where I stand.
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With some songs down tuned, does Jordan have to transpose and sorta relearn those songs in different hand positions? It's once thing to detune a guitar, but would be detune his keyboard as well?
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With some songs down tuned, does Jordan have to transpose and sorta relearn those songs in different hand positions? It's once thing to detune a guitar, but would be detune his keyboard as well?
I remember reading somewhere that with the I&W and Beyond tour, he simply detuned his keyboard. The fingerings remained the same as they would be in the original key, but the keyboard sounds a half step lower.
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They did it for the I&W tour, and to be honest James sounded bad even then.
I think it might be better to alter some melodies or skip some songs since he's not able to do them anymore, they have a vast catalog of songs so it should be ok.
They also rely a lot on the backing tracks now, if you see for 6:00 or Endless Sacrifice for example, the backing track contains the lead melody, and James sings along in either a different octave or an alternate melody.
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James sings higher than the original very often live though, like in Pull Me Under. 'If not today then not tomorrow, then some other DAAAAAAAY', 'I am not AFRAAAAAIID'
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James has been getting flack for his voice from day one from whatever reason, even in his prime. Some people will bash him whether he performs well or not. Even if the band tunes down, you can still count on James getting criticism, so why bother?
The only possible scenario is James requesting from the band to tune down if he feels like he can do better in a lower tuning. I do not see that being a possibility, though, James looks pretty confident in his voice in recent years.
Interestingly enough, when they performed Images and words in Eb a few years back, James decided to alter certain lines towards the end of the tour. Some songs are difficult regardless of the tuning, I guess.
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the keys sound different. Of course if the guy really cant get it done in the original key you are right and they probably should. But Eb just sounds different from E. Also, the string tension starts to change, which could throw off your pin point accuracy if you are JP.
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With some songs down tuned, does Jordan have to transpose and sorta relearn those songs in different hand positions? It's once thing to detune a guitar, but would be detune his keyboard as well?
I remember reading somewhere that with the I&W and Beyond tour, he simply detuned his keyboard. The fingerings remained the same as they would be in the original key, but the keyboard sounds a half step lower.
Yeah, If I remember correctly, most modern keyboard have the "transpose" feature, which means you can make that Middle C sound like a D if you want to. So he can still play the same notes on the keyboard while the sound comes out in a different key.
In fact, I think Korg Kronos (I think he still uses that) has a feature where you can create a "setlist", so as you move through the songs the keyboard has the preset settings ready.
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I thought they did do this for the I&W stuff recently. Maybe I’m wrong?
Correct. All of I&W except Wait for Sleep was played down a half step on the I&W and Beyond Tour, as well as A Change of Seasons.
Man, that drive me NUTS when I saw em. Kinda wrecks the reprise in Learning to Live since that’s now a half step lower than the actual piece. The flow between the two songs just didn’t work for me as well on that tour as it has pretty much every other time.
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Then if this is all down half a step, and a full step is too muddy, honestly, it may just be time to retire I&W. There's no sense in trotting out there to do Pull Me Under, Learning to Live, etc., and expose the fact that a singer is 30 years older and his voice just isn't as nimble. Musicians can keep up their chops, but singing is an organic instrument. Age and wear and tear take a toll. Some guys, like Glenn Hughes, Corey Glover and a few others have likely sold their souls to the devil to keep those voices soaring. LOL. But MOST folks' voices just aren't there. No sense in JLB going out there and trying to sing something that he physically struggles with replicating.
Just my .02. JLB has given this band, what...31 years of his voice. He goes out and prepares, works at it, etc. He can't control what his voice decides to do. I just feel the band needs to do him a solid. If dropping the tunes further (a whole step) sounds like mud (which it probably will), then as much as it pains me to say it, because I love I&W, they need to retire those songs. They probably should retire most of Awake too.
A lot of love and respect to JLB - he's out there giving it his all. Not his fault, and I think the songs DT plays live should suit his 2022 voice.
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They did it for the I&W tour, and to be honest James sounded bad even then.
I think it might be better to alter some melodies or skip some songs since he's not able to do them anymore, they have a vast catalog of songs so it should be ok.
That's the best solution there, just retire some songs and play something else. They have such a big catalog that nobody would care/notice if they didn't play PMU or some of the older stuff ever again, specially considering there's a lot of songs from the 2000's they haven't played in a long long time. There's even stuff from the MM era they've never played live yet.
And yes, they downtuned IAW and ACOS in 2017 and that didn't help that much either, some vocal sections on the IAW live in Japan release from the LNFA are painful to listen to :-\
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They're already doing this, as far as I'm aware. I think James' vocals still sound great, but the challenges presented by those early recordings go a lot further than just being resolved by transposing the whole tune down by one step.
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Would it be acceptable to keep the songs in their current key, and just dramatically altar the vocal melody? Also, maybe some songs would benefit from a new arrangement. There is a Cameo of James Labrie singing Innocence Faded on YouTube... He takes more time to breath than the standard arrangement would allow, but as a result he sounds really good, IMO, even on the high parts.
https://youtu.be/Y0_cRS5g8Qc
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Then if this is all down half a step, and a full step is too muddy, honestly, it may just be time to retire I&W. There's no sense in trotting out there to do Pull Me Under, Learning to Live, etc., and expose the fact that a singer is 30 years older and his voice just isn't as nimble. Musicians can keep up their chops, but singing is an organic instrument. Age and wear and tear take a toll. Some guys, like Glenn Hughes, Corey Glover and a few others have likely sold their souls to the devil to keep those voices soaring. LOL. But MOST folks' voices just aren't there. No sense in JLB going out there and trying to sing something that he physically struggles with replicating.
Just my .02. JLB has given this band, what...31 years of his voice. He goes out and prepares, works at it, etc. He can't control what his voice decides to do. I just feel the band needs to do him a solid. If dropping the tunes further (a whole step) sounds like mud (which it probably will), then as much as it pains me to say it, because I love I&W, they need to retire those songs. They probably should retire most of Awake too.
A lot of love and respect to JLB - he's out there giving it his all. Not his fault, and I think the songs DT plays live should suit his 2022 voice.
If they're going to retire the most famous and best album then they might as well retire from live performances.
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Then if this is all down half a step, and a full step is too muddy, honestly, it may just be time to retire I&W. There's no sense in trotting out there to do Pull Me Under, Learning to Live, etc., and expose the fact that a singer is 30 years older and his voice just isn't as nimble. Musicians can keep up their chops, but singing is an organic instrument. Age and wear and tear take a toll. Some guys, like Glenn Hughes, Corey Glover and a few others have likely sold their souls to the devil to keep those voices soaring. LOL. But MOST folks' voices just aren't there. No sense in JLB going out there and trying to sing something that he physically struggles with replicating.
Just my .02. JLB has given this band, what...31 years of his voice. He goes out and prepares, works at it, etc. He can't control what his voice decides to do. I just feel the band needs to do him a solid. If dropping the tunes further (a whole step) sounds like mud (which it probably will), then as much as it pains me to say it, because I love I&W, they need to retire those songs. They probably should retire most of Awake too.
A lot of love and respect to JLB - he's out there giving it his all. Not his fault, and I think the songs DT plays live should suit his 2022 voice.
If they're going to retire the most famous and best album then they might as well retire from live performances.
That’s a ridiculous statement. As long as they play music they love to play, and people are still willing to sell out large theaters and small arenas to see them play what they choose to play…why would they stop?
I mean, honestly. If they did a tour of nothing but Mangini-era material and nothing from the “classic era” at all, but people continued to show up… It might be sad for some of us older fans, but if they still see a return on their business then they can do whatever they want.
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Then if this is all down half a step, and a full step is too muddy, honestly, it may just be time to retire I&W. There's no sense in trotting out there to do Pull Me Under, Learning to Live, etc., and expose the fact that a singer is 30 years older and his voice just isn't as nimble. Musicians can keep up their chops, but singing is an organic instrument. Age and wear and tear take a toll. Some guys, like Glenn Hughes, Corey Glover and a few others have likely sold their souls to the devil to keep those voices soaring. LOL. But MOST folks' voices just aren't there. No sense in JLB going out there and trying to sing something that he physically struggles with replicating.
Just my .02. JLB has given this band, what...31 years of his voice. He goes out and prepares, works at it, etc. He can't control what his voice decides to do. I just feel the band needs to do him a solid. If dropping the tunes further (a whole step) sounds like mud (which it probably will), then as much as it pains me to say it, because I love I&W, they need to retire those songs. They probably should retire most of Awake too.
A lot of love and respect to JLB - he's out there giving it his all. Not his fault, and I think the songs DT plays live should suit his 2022 voice.
If they're going to retire the most famous and best album then they might as well retire from live performances.
That’s a ridiculous statement. As long as they play music they love to play, and people are still willing to sell out large theaters and small arenas to see them play what they choose to play…why would they stop?
I mean, honestly. If they did a tour of nothing but Mangini-era material and nothing from the “classic era” at all, but people continued to show up… It might be sad for some of us older fans, but if they still see a return on their business then they can do whatever they want.
People wouldn't continue to show up for a show like that like it or not. And I am in the small camp who thinks that there is only one superior MP-era album (I&W). If they can't pull of Pull Me Under they are done. The good news is that JLB's execution is similar to how it was 20 years ago.
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Downtuned music sounds weird. It was written in the original key for a reason.
Thank god Metallica at least records their studio tracks in E.
To your first point; the ‘reason’ for a lot of hard rock / metal bands being the limitations of the electric guitar. There’s thus a reason so much songs are in E (minor) for example - like half the Metallica and Iron Maiden catalogue (exaggerated only slightly). Lots of guitar based music is in keys that are ‘easy’ on the guitar, like E(m), A(m), D or G. It’s no coincidence.
To your second point.. most of Metallica’s stuff sounds similar precisely because they insist on hitting that low E string all the time. Or do you mean tuning their guitars in E? In that case, try playing along to Ride the Lightning once and notice how basically the entire album is slightly out of tune (you can hear this clearly on For Whom the Bell Tolls). But this is off-topic. Why did you being it up in the first place?
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But Eb just sounds different from E. Also, the string tension starts to change, which could throw off your pin point accuracy if you are JP.
This is nonsense, you would just use thicker strings to compensate.
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Why don't the band do X to help LaBrie out?
I think the answer is probably simple: James would have to want them to. Now, I don't know James personally, but he seems to be pretty competitive, and confident in his abilities. And no, he doesn't sound like IAW James (he would probably dispute that), but he also doesn't sound like "get this guy off the stage" tier, either.
As far as drastically rearranging songs goes, I don't see the current lineup of the band doing that. That would have been something MP might consider, though, as he liked to do special versions of things, medleys, and so on.
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When I saw I&W and Beyond live I didn't notice the half-step difference. I imagine most people in the audience didn't either.
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Why don't the band do X to help LaBrie out?
I think the answer is probably simple: James would have to want them to. Now, I don't know James personally, but he seems to be pretty competitive, and confident in his abilities. And no, he doesn't sound like IAW James (he would probably dispute that), but he also doesn't sound like "get this guy off the stage" tier, either.
As far as drastically rearranging songs goes, I don't see the current lineup of the band doing that. That would have been something MP might consider, though, as he liked to do special versions of things, medleys, and so on.
At a show I was at, he said something like "Yes I'll be singing Images and Words when I'm 70"
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Is it time to pull a "Journey" or "Queensryche" and just find a younger better version of JLB? OR maybe Arnel and Todd can split the DT vocal duties. Maybe Blaze? :lol :rollin
Seriously tho. If they are still selling albums and tickets nothing will change. I would not mind at all if they replaced him at this point. Hell, it might even bring in new fans. Like I'm the only one here who wouldn't be curious to hear them with a fresh voice? I actually see it happening in the near future. Regardless the reason, Maiden replaced Bruce with Blaze, anything is possible. I just can't see the band letting James' decline suffer the quality of their music let alone call it a career. He's replaceable.
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They will never replace James. Nor should they.
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They will never replace James. Nor should they.
100% hard disagree. No disrespect to you.
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They will never replace James. Nor should they.
100% hard disagree. No disrespect to you.
I don't think "they will never replace James" is a hot take. Why would you hard disagree with that?
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But Eb just sounds different from E. Also, the string tension starts to change, which could throw off your pin point accuracy if you are JP.
This is nonsense, you would just use thicker strings to compensate.
It does not fully compensate and thicker strings feel and sound different, tension aside. I have guitars I tune down that also have thicker gauges and it never 100% feels like standard tuning with your original gauge. It certainly can make the tension similar, but it's never exact. It isn't 'nonsense' in the slightest.
Also there is nothing you can do to make Eb sound like E.
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They will never replace James. Nor should they.
100% hard disagree. No disrespect to you.
I don't think "they will never replace James" is a hot take. Why would you hard disagree with that?
I never thought Portnoy would be replaced. You don't think DT can survive with a new voice? If it gets to the point where he becomes terrible live, why not replace him? Don't forget they were considering this years back and he stepped it up. I dig his voice but tuning down or writing to compensate him is just insane. That said, I love every album he's done and have always been a fan of him. All I'm saying is if he can't do it anymore, move on. Not one fan here will stop listening even if you say you would now.
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Is it time to pull a "Journey" or "Queensryche" and just find a younger better version of JLB? OR maybe Arnel and Todd can split the DT vocal duties. Maybe Blaze? :lol :rollin
Seriously tho. If they are still selling albums and tickets nothing will change. I would not mind at all if they replaced him at this point. Hell, it might even bring in new fans. Like I'm the only one here who wouldn't be curious to hear them with a fresh voice? I actually see it happening in the near future. Regardless the reason, Maiden replaced Bruce with Blaze, anything is possible. I just can't see the band letting James' decline suffer the quality of their music let alone call it a career. He's replaceable.
Unfortunately the time to replace has long expired. At this point unless he is totally shitting the bed live and in the studio-- and even then, I dunno-- he is here until the end. I agree with you it would be best to hear a fresher invigorated voice that doesn't have as much baggage, but I just think that window was closed, especially with MP out of the band. I would personally also like to hear a voice that sounds a little less era-specific.
Remember: the performances and negative fan feedback have been far worse than they are today and he still did not get replaced.
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Is it time to pull a "Journey" or "Queensryche" and just find a younger better version of JLB? OR maybe Arnel and Todd can split the DT vocal duties. Maybe Blaze? :lol :rollin
Seriously tho. If they are still selling albums and tickets nothing will change. I would not mind at all if they replaced him at this point. Hell, it might even bring in new fans. Like I'm the only one here who wouldn't be curious to hear them with a fresh voice? I actually see it happening in the near future. Regardless the reason, Maiden replaced Bruce with Blaze, anything is possible. I just can't see the band letting James' decline suffer the quality of their music let alone call it a career. He's replaceable.
Unfortunately the time to replace has long expired. At this point unless he is totally shitting the bed live and in the studio-- and even then, I dunno-- he is here until the end. I agree with you it would be best to hear a fresher invigorated voice that doesn't have as much baggage, but I just think that window was closed, especially with MP out of the band. I would personally also like to hear a voice that sounds a little less era-specific.
Remember: the performances and negative fan feedback have been far worse than they are today and he still did not get replaced.
What you say is possible but if the band feels he can't do it but they still have more music in them they probably blow us away with a fresh voice. I'm sure they hear the fans and probably this forum even, but these guys are extremely far from stupid and when and if the time comes they will upgrade and make us all on board with it.
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James is still outstanding on their albums though. And live, I think it really depends on how they can manage his rest. He has been pretty damn good on the AVFTTOTW tour. Started off shaky, but he found his groove.
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I love his vocals on the new album. This is all hypothetical. I think they would move on if they had to. That's all I'm saying. I'm not looking to lynch the dude but James will not dictate when DT calls it quits.
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But Eb just sounds different from E. Also, the string tension starts to change, which could throw off your pin point accuracy if you are JP.
This is nonsense, you would just use thicker strings to compensate.
It does not fully compensate and thicker strings feel and sound different, tension aside. I have guitars I tune down that also have thicker gauges and it never 100% feels like standard tuning with your original gauge. It certainly can make the tension similar, but it's never exact. It isn't 'nonsense' in the slightest.
Also there is nothing you can do to make Eb sound like E.
Honestly, this still feels like a non issue to me. Of course, when you would change from 0.09's to 0.12's in the same tuning, it's going to be very different, but you adjust to a small step basically instantly (like 0.10 to 0.09). Likewise, an acoustic guitar feels and plays different from an electric guitar and a different shaped body might throw you off, because you can't hold it your preferred way, but the same electric guitar tuned lower but with thicker strings to compensate.. that's really negligible.
I don't understand your last point? Of course it's going to sound different. Thicker strings will sound different regardless of whether you're going to downtune or not. Eb is a different key, so yeah, it will sound different. Like others have said in this thread though (and for the purpose of staying slightly on topic); for the untrained ear, it wouldn't matter. They would recognise the song and not realise it's been tuned down a half step.
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Then if this is all down half a step, and a full step is too muddy, honestly, it may just be time to retire I&W.
This was my thinking when I finally listened to that 2017 concert a few months back. I think going a full step down wouldn't make a drastic enough change for James to warrant the drastic change of the lower tuning, if that makes sense.
Saying that, I'd be fine with them playing Learning to Live a full step down then other songs in the catalog in their regular tuning that are easier for James.
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But Eb just sounds different from E. Also, the string tension starts to change, which could throw off your pin point accuracy if you are JP.
This is nonsense, you would just use thicker strings to compensate.
It does not fully compensate and thicker strings feel and sound different, tension aside. I have guitars I tune down that also have thicker gauges and it never 100% feels like standard tuning with your original gauge. It certainly can make the tension similar, but it's never exact. It isn't 'nonsense' in the slightest.
Also there is nothing you can do to make Eb sound like E.
I'm sure JP would manage mate, he's kind of a pro. It really wouldn't make that much difference though. What about bands that play in different tunings all the time?
And true, there is nothing you can do to make Eb sound like E, because they are not the same. They are a semitone apart.
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I think they are doing things to accommodate James - they're doing songs that have less singing and more instrumental breaks, songs that don't go so high, the backing tapes have been ramped up a bit, etc. He still sounded like he was on 40% battery at my show this year, and the more time went on during the set, the worse he got. The show reviews all say it was hard to hear what was going on due to the famously bad arena sound at this place and the amount of backing tapes and how his voice was placed in the mix, but imo if you have good ears and you were specifically listening for that, you would have found James not sounding his best.
If his only problem was the highest notes, they'd probably just go down a semitone on everything, since they showed willingness to do it for the IAW Beyond tour, but that didn't help him much. It's just that singing Dream Theater songs is hard and his level of vocal agility is going down with age, despite his work to get the best he can out of his voice. He probably also likes the way he sounds as well, and thinks all the notes he does hit make up for some bad phrasing and odd turns here and there.
I don't think there's a situation to be addressed necessarily. There will be, what, maybe three or four more DT tours tops? On the show he was also warm and engaging in his own slightly stilted but funny way :lol and everyone seemed to be having a good time. It's nice to see Dream Theater from up close and there's many aspects of the show that aren't exactly the same as they were, not just James' voice.
I wouldn't put anything (up to replacing JP) past DT, but clearly this is just how this is going to be happening, with James receiving maximum help that the regular concert goer wouldn't necessarily notice so much - conservative changes in tuning, backing tapes, setlist choices, et cetera.
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Is it time to pull a "Journey" or "Queensryche" and just find a younger better version of JLB? OR maybe Arnel and Todd can split the DT vocal duties. Maybe Blaze? :lol :rollin
Seriously tho. If they are still selling albums and tickets nothing will change. I would not mind at all if they replaced him at this point. Hell, it might even bring in new fans. Like I'm the only one here who wouldn't be curious to hear them with a fresh voice? I actually see it happening in the near future. Regardless the reason, Maiden replaced Bruce with Blaze, anything is possible. I just can't see the band letting James' decline suffer the quality of their music let alone call it a career. He's replaceable.
No. I find the whole "hey, let's find a younger singer who sounds a lot like our old singer did way back when" trend fairly uninteresting, as the band just ends up sounding like a vastly inferior version of their former selves. Imagine if VH had went out of their way to find a David Lee Roth-soundalike in the mid 80s instead of getting Sammy Hagar.
JLB's live struggles in recent years are no secret, but as a selfish fan, I'd rather they call it a day than fire him and get someone else just keep the touring train going. He still sounds fine in the studio (no matter how many takes and/or studio magic it probably takes), and I hope to never hear a Dream Theater studio album in the future where James LaBrie is not the singer.
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James has been getting flack for his voice from day one from whatever reason, even in his prime. Some people will bash him whether he performs well or not. Even if the band tunes down, you can still count on James getting criticism, so why bother?
my thoughts exactly. It is both a curse and a blessing to be the aging singer in a band of virtuosos.
This has always been my frustration with the fans. If we pass off on Ian Gillian, Vince Neil, Bruce Dickinson and the likes, then who cares if James can't sing like before? IMO, he hit the F# on Learning to Live, no one else. Sure he can't hit it anymore, but neither is Bruce able to do the scream in Number of the Beast, or Ian able to do the falsettos on Highway Star, or DLR able to do any of his screams from early VH albums. They are all icons and important to the evolution of music! What matters is going to a show and seeing the artists that helped define genres and pave the way for others.
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NO ONE is giving Vince Neil a pass, and listing that has-been (who arguably was never good in the first place) along with the other greats is criminal.
Why not just throw Stephen Pearcy on that list?
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Who is Vince Neil?
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NO ONE is giving Vince Neil a pass, and listing that has-been (who arguably was never good in the first place) along with the other greats is criminal.
Why not just throw Stephen Pearcy on that list?
Stephen Pearcy blew chunks in his prime.
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I don't know, I'm listening to this Live in Berlin, which was only 3 years ago, and James sounds awesome! Good James is just about my favorite singer ever - and bad James, well is bad. He's always been an enigma though.
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I don't know, I'm listening to this Live in Berlin, which was only 3 years ago, and James sounds awesome!
Yup, very solid.
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NO ONE is giving Vince Neil a pass
I guess I better start telling all those fans that filled stadiums for years about this. ;)
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NO ONE is giving Vince Neil a pass
I guess I better start telling all those fans that filled stadiums for years about this. ;)
I know a guy that bought the $3500 seats down front and he said that Motley Crue was awesome, and that after they played, the energy was sucked out of the crowd for Def Leppard.
I honestly don't understand why anyone would go to this show.
I did see Motley Crue 3 times in the 80's and they were great live.
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Who is Vince Neil?
:lol :lol :lol
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NO ONE is giving Vince Neil a pass, and listing that has-been (who arguably was never good in the first place) along with the other greats is criminal.
Why not just throw Stephen Pearcy on that list?
Stephen Pearcy blew chunks in his prime.
So did Vince! :rollin
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NO ONE is giving Vince Neil a pass
I guess I better start telling all those fans that filled stadiums for years about this. ;)
They do that for Bon Jovi as well…and his lame vocals are well documented.
At least Bon Jovi has a better track record than MC does. There is no one in existence that gets the “LEGEND” tag with a spottier catalog than MC and I dare anyone to prove otherwise. (Kiss would be a distant 2nd…but even they have six undisputed classic albums, which MC never had). I guess I just feel like they are the Kardasians of the metal world. They are more popular for their celebrity status than their music talent.
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Who is Vince Neil?
:lol :lol :lol
Yes, I know that might look funny or ‘witty’ or whatever. I had to look up who that was. Wasn’t surprised I didn’t know.
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I don't know, I'm listening to this Live in Berlin, which was only 3 years ago, and James sounds awesome! Good James is just about my favorite singer ever - and bad James, well is bad. He's always been an enigma though.
Well my view on this is that this release has undergone some pretty serious editing on the vocal side of things. As is the case with Distant Memories of course.
Not that i have a problem with that (if it's not too obvious).
Truth is i love James and his voice, ageing unfortunately seems to have caught up with his (very heavily tired from all years of extreme touring) voice. But i wouldn't consider an album without him a Dream Theater album.
I might be completely off base here, but i feel that apart from the natural decline of his voice, he hasn't done much (apart from his routine) to work with a vocal coach or something in the recent years. Starting from the Astonishing tour, his voice has been on a steady decline, and i've seen probably all sorts of bootlegs that exist from every tour.
On Distance Over Time, it was the first time i thought his voice sounded strained and tired even on the studio. On the last album, i like most of his delivery, and it's good that the vocal lines are much more down to earth so that helps.
Now for the touring part, there's some elaborate mixing with the backing track, so he can "cheat" on some demanding lines without sounding too much like a playback.
I don't know if a new vocal coach could help him regain some of his ability, and i still admire the hard work he has put for the band all these years.
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James has been getting flack for his voice from day one from whatever reason, even in his prime. Some people will bash him whether he performs well or not. Even if the band tunes down, you can still count on James getting criticism, so why bother?
my thoughts exactly. It is both a curse and a blessing to be the aging singer in a band of virtuosos.
This has always been my frustration with the fans. If we pass off on Ian Gillian, Vince Neil, Bruce Dickinson and the likes, then who cares if James can't sing like before? IMO, he hit the F# on Learning to Live, no one else. Sure he can't hit it anymore, but neither is Bruce able to do the scream in Number of the Beast, or Ian able to do the falsettos on Highway Star, or DLR able to do any of his screams from early VH albums. They are all icons and important to the evolution of music! What matters is going to a show and seeing the artists that helped define genres and pave the way for others.
Ian Gillan, Vince Neil, Bruce Dickinson...
Mercedes, Yugo, BMW...
Steak, Ramen Noodles, Lobster...
And by the by, Bruce CAN do the scream; I saw it my own self in Hartford (and that show is on YouToob). Even back in '87, Vince was doing his "first word... mumble, mumble, last word" dance with most of the Crüe songs.
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James has been getting flack for his voice from day one from whatever reason, even in his prime. Some people will bash him whether he performs well or not. Even if the band tunes down, you can still count on James getting criticism, so why bother?
my thoughts exactly. It is both a curse and a blessing to be the aging singer in a band of virtuosos.
This has always been my frustration with the fans. If we pass off on Ian Gillian, Vince Neil, Bruce Dickinson and the likes, then who cares if James can't sing like before? IMO, he hit the F# on Learning to Live, no one else. Sure he can't hit it anymore, but neither is Bruce able to do the scream in Number of the Beast, or Ian able to do the falsettos on Highway Star, or DLR able to do any of his screams from early VH albums. They are all icons and important to the evolution of music! What matters is going to a show and seeing the artists that helped define genres and pave the way for others.
Ian Gillan, Vince Neil, Bruce Dickinson...
Mercedes, Yugo, BMW...
Steak, Ramen Noodles, Lobster...
And by the by, Bruce CAN do the scream; I saw it my own self in Hartford (and that show is on YouToob). Even back in '87, Vince was doing his "first word... mumble, mumble, last word" dance with most of the Crüe songs.
Exactly.
And :rollin :rollin :rollin at the word association.
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NO ONE is giving Vince Neil a pass
I guess I better start telling all those fans that filled stadiums for years about this. ;)
They do that for Bon Jovi as well…and his lame vocals are well documented.
At least Bon Jovi has a better track record than MC does. There is no one in existence that gets the “LEGEND” tag with a spottier catalog than MC and I dare anyone to prove otherwise. (Kiss would be a distant 2nd…but even they have six undisputed classic albums, which MC never had). I guess I just feel like they are the Kardasians of the metal world. They are more popular for their celebrity status than their music talent.
I strongly disagree with the Kiss comment, but agree wholeheartedly with Crüe. I saw them on the Dr. Feelgood tour and it was an excellent show, but they're NOT a great live band in the same sense that the Stones are, or Kiss is, or whatever. There's a difference.
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I was thinking specifically of “percentage of catalog” where Kiss has a larger body to draw from. And I did say they were a “distant 2nd”
Is there anyone else with the “legend” tag that has a really very spotty whole career body of work? I don’t even like the Stones, but I will admit that probably 75% of their albums have been fairly well received.
I love AC/DC, but if I’m being honest, they could probably be mentioned in the discussion as well (though not nearly as bad as MC).
And when I say “spotty”, I’m thinking more about reception than sales. Even among the MC faithful, the first two albums are (rightfully) considered classics, but TOP and GGG are considered to be very substandard albums with a few classic songs peppered in to keep them from being terrible. DF is considered somewhat of a comeback, but then what? The self titled? Generation Swine? New Tattoo? Seriously…I don’t see how these guys made it on the strength of 2 (maybe 3) classic albums making up less than 50% of their body of work.
Ok…rant over. Honestly, not too many things annoy me anymore, but MC annoys me. And maybe Ozzy a bit.
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I was thinking specifically of “percentage of catalog” where Kiss has a larger body to draw from. And I did say they were a “distant 2nd”
Is there anyone else with the “legend” tag that has a really very spotty whole career body of work? I don’t even like the Stones, but I will admit that probably 75% of their albums have been fairly well received.
I love AC/DC, but if I’m being honest, they could probably be mentioned in the discussion as well (though not nearly as bad as MC).
And when I say “spotty”, I’m thinking more about reception than sales. Even among the MC faithful, the first two albums are (rightfully) considered classics, but TOP and GGG are considered to be very substandard albums with a few classic songs peppered in to keep them from being terrible. DF is considered somewhat of a comeback, but then what? The self titled? Generation Swine? New Tattoo? Seriously…I don’t see how these guys made it on the strength of 2 (maybe 3) classic albums making up less than 50% of their body of work.
Ok…rant over. Honestly, not too many things annoy me anymore, but MC annoys me. And maybe Ozzy a bit.
IF the Stones is "75%" (given their early records that were put out using the 60's mentality of a couple originals and a ton of covers) then Kiss' is at least 75%. If you're a fan, the only duds are really "Carnival of Souls", perhaps "Hot In The Shade" (though the tour made up for it) and maybe - MAYBE - "Unmasked". I'm even hesitating to put in The Elder here, since it's sort of gained a cult status and never was as bad as it was made out to be. The costumes sucked but that's not the music.
I think there are a couple bands like this. Guns and Roses. I LOVE them, but really, three albums of new material and they're in the RnRHoF? Green Day; they may not be legends, per se, but still. Tom Petty. Bob Seger. Steve Miller. All have EXCELLENT Greatest Hits collections, but is anyone really grooving to their ENTIRE catalogue?
One other: I think they ARE legends, but if we're just talking about CATALOGUES, the Dead. I'm not sure they have even ONE classic studio album. MAYBE Aoxomoxoa or Workingman's Dead.
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Who is Vince Neil?
:lol :lol :lol
Yes, I know that might look funny or ‘witty’ or whatever. I had to look up who that was. Wasn’t surprised I didn’t know.
When I first heard Too Fast For Love by Motley Crue in 8th grade I couldn't stop playing it. Still playing it today.
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Well, I had a Yugo and I don't like lobster.
Way too much Vince Neil bashing going on. I mean in their prime they were one of the best arena rock acts going. I realize he's all fucked now, but 80's Vince was pretty good. He had a great voice.
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Amen Tim!
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On record, maybe. Live, I'm not a fan. I always get the impression he's phoning it in.
(https://i.imgur.com/dfxr53i.jpg)
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On record, maybe. Live, I'm not a fan. I always get the impression he's phoning it in.
(https://i.imgur.com/dfxr53i.jpg)
He's phoning it in alright. Phoning in a pizza order.
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That’s a GOOD pic of him. But yeah he shouldn’t be charging people to sing at this point.
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On record, maybe. Live, I'm not a fan. I always get the impression he's phoning it in.
(https://i.imgur.com/dfxr53i.jpg)
Agreed. I saw him on the GGG tour in 87 and I was pretty disappointed. Whitesnake (the opener) was a lot better. It was too bad too because I went in with high hopes. I had actually thought a little more than half their stuff was pretty decent (and at that time, it was probably true). I absolutely stand by the first two as being amazing albums from start to finish.
EDIT - I want to add that even on those two albums, which I love, I’ve always thought Vince was the weakest link. He hits some really sour notes on On With the Show that still make me cringe.
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He hits some really sour notes on On With the Show that still make me cringe.
C'mon J-dude, no no no.
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He hits some really sour notes on On With the Show that still make me cringe.
C'mon J-dude, no no no.
It’s very telling that you knew exactly which note it was. :rollin :rollin
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He hits some really sour notes on On With the Show that still make me cringe.
C'mon J-dude, no no no.
It’s very telling that you knew exactly which note it was. :rollin :rollin
I went and listened to the song. It did not disappoint :lol
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One other thing that Jammin' I think will appreciate (and maybe Tim). I'm east coast, New York. The whole Leathur Records thing with the first album, and the initial mix, then the re-release when the second album sort of did something... that was Twisted Sister for me. Their first record - produced by Pete Way - had a weird initial mix, then when the second - You Can't Stop Rock 'n' Roll - did something, the first was remixed and re-released... It's like they were an east/west coast version of each other. Somehow Sister imploded, and Crüe didn't. Maybe it's because Dee Snider is by far the best part of Twisted Sister but the rest are sort of pedestrian, whereas Crüe is the opposite. Or maybe it's because Tommy's shlong is, well, shlonger.
But for me, I way more rather listen to Dee Snider - studio or live - than Vince Neil.
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One other thing that Jammin' I think will appreciate (and maybe Tim). I'm east coast, New York. The whole Leathur Records thing with the first album, and the initial mix, then the re-release when the second album sort of did something... that was Twisted Sister for me. Their first record - produced by Pete Way - had a weird initial mix, then when the second - You Can't Stop Rock 'n' Roll - did something, the first was remixed and re-released... It's like they were an east/west coast version of each other. Somehow Sister imploded, and Crüe didn't. Maybe it's because Dee Snider is by far the best part of Twisted Sister but the rest are sort of pedestrian, whereas Crüe is the opposite. Or maybe it's because Tommy's shlong is, well, shlonger.
But for me, I way more rather listen to Dee Snider - studio or live - than Vince Neil.
I didn't hear Motley Crue until the Elektra release in 1982. The radio station in Providence (94 HJY) had a show on Sunday nights called Fresh Tracks, where for an hour, they played 3 or 4 songs from a new release. I recorded the Motley Crue tracks. (I think they were Live Wire, Piece Of your Action and I can't remember what else).
Somehow Motley eluded the clownshow image that Twisted Sister garnered.
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One other thing that Jammin' I think will appreciate (and maybe Tim). I'm east coast, New York. The whole Leathur Records thing with the first album, and the initial mix, then the re-release when the second album sort of did something... that was Twisted Sister for me. Their first record - produced by Pete Way - had a weird initial mix, then when the second - You Can't Stop Rock 'n' Roll - did something, the first was remixed and re-released... It's like they were an east/west coast version of each other. Somehow Sister imploded, and Crüe didn't. Maybe it's because Dee Snider is by far the best part of Twisted Sister but the rest are sort of pedestrian, whereas Crüe is the opposite. Or maybe it's because Tommy's shlong is, well, shlonger.
But for me, I way more rather listen to Dee Snider - studio or live - than Vince Neil.
I didn't hear Motley Crue until the Elektra release in 1982. The radio station in Providence (94 HJY) had a show on Sunday nights called Fresh Tracks, where for an hour, they played 3 or 4 songs from a new release. I recorded the Motley Crue tracks. (I think they were Live Wire, Piece Of your Action and I can't remember what else).
Somehow Motley eluded the clownshow image that Twisted Sister garnered.
And that may be the difference; they both had the makeup, but whereas Motley had Nikki Sixx dying on Sunset Boulevard and Vince Neil crashing his Ferrari on a beer run, Twisted had Dee Snider eating a Fred Flintstone bone and "Is that a PLEDGE PIN on your UNIFORM?" videos. Hell, even I checked out of that for a while in '85, '86. Between TS and Ozzy becoming a joke, it's no wonder I got into prog around that time.
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Twisted had Dee Snider eating a Fred Flintstone bone and "Is that a PLEDGE PIN on your UNIFORM?" videos.
The Maestro?
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WTF is a Yugo?
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WTF is a Yugo?
:rollin :rollin :rollin
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WTF is a Yugo?
:rollin :rollin :rollin
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/pPhyAv5t9V8djyRFJH/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b9521358ed1d8d4c449bcb7150ede685025a5adb4a52&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
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Is that like "what the fuck is a frush?" :lol
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See, the difference between Gillan or Dickinson or whoever and Labrie is (and I’m sure the majority will agree) they just don’t sound as frickin WEIRD or cringey as James does when they’re off. You know, stuff like constantly putting a W in front of every vowel: “Wi’m alive again, darkness far behind me, Wi’m invincible . . .”. That kind of stuff is just so annoying and distracting, much more so than someone just not hitting a note quite right or high enough.
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See, the difference between Gillan or Dickinson or whoever and Labrie is (and I’m sure the majority will agree) they just don’t sound as frickin WEIRD or cringey as James does when they’re off. You know, stuff like constantly putting a W in front of every vowel: “Wi’m alive again, darkness far behind me, Wi’m invincible . . .”. That kind of stuff is just so annoying and distracting, much more so than someone just not hitting a note quite right or high enough.
I think James LaBrie sounds so much better than Gillan. Way, way, way better, in fact.
Dickinson, of course, is not a fair comparison. Those songs are more about energy and the occasional operatic than they are about navigating a tricky vocal passage in an odd time signature the way James does. Bruce is one of my favorite singers, but Iron Maiden melodies are way more simple than Dream Theater ones, and the crowd sing for Bruce half of the time.
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I don't think Gillan ever sounded good.
Bruce is amazing, but his performance has basically rendered the Mexico City live album unlistenable.
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I don't think Gillan ever sounded good.
Bruce is amazing, but his performance has basically rendered the Mexico City live album unlistenable.
Except in the first couple years of Deep Purple, Ian's voice isn't about power or holding notes, his TONE is sort of an acquired taste. He was singing Child In Time as late as the 2000's and he hit the notes, but his voice acquired a reediness by the time they reunited. Sometimes Bruce can be like that too. Being able to hit a high note doesn't mean that the note will be pleasant. And I guess that's the same with James; but if you listen to the live Number of the Beast, he hits all the notes, but that doesn't mean that it sounds as good as when Bruce does it, because the tone and tenor is not the same. I think the fact that James sings in such a high register even on the good days makes that more of a high wire to walk on.
I mean, I don't hear a ton of difference between the three when they get all screechy. None of it is all that pleasant to be honest. I don't listen to Mexico either; that's in part because I saw Hartford not long before and Bruce was on top of his game (confirmed by an HD video I later found of that exact show I saw).
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Biggest JLB fan you'll meet, and my take has long been this: rather than tune down (a half-step isn't going to make all that big of a difference when it comes to a bad night), why not change the vocal melodies to accommodate.
And, that's exactly what he's been doing (at least on the last tour). Songs like 6:00 sound so much better the way he approached them on this past tour.
Now, as for the OP's point on Pull Me Under—I haven't heard a recent version, but traditionally, that second verse has been giving him fits since the late '90s. I have long wondered why he just didn't sing it an octave lower.
The best analog I can find for JLB is Geddy Lee. Long derided for his vocals by casual/radio fans (I can't tell you how many times I've heard 'Rush would be great if they had a different singer'), I think Geddy did a wonderful job of accommodating his limited range during their final two decades live.
Obviously, we all have different takes on this, but for this guy, as long as the band is playing and having fun, I could care less how they alter the songs. A solid performance of Pull Me Under with James singing the whole thing an octave lower is a-okay in my book.
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See, the difference between Gillan or Dickinson or whoever and Labrie is (and I’m sure the majority will agree) they just don’t sound as frickin WEIRD or cringey as James does when they’re off. You know, stuff like constantly putting a W in front of every vowel: “Wi’m alive again, darkness far behind me, Wi’m invincible . . .”. That kind of stuff is just so annoying and distracting, much more so than someone just not hitting a note quite right or high enough.
I don't know if we listen same singers, maybe you put your personal thought in it but even prime Gillan was not good and not a powerhouse and yes Dickinson is a great frontman but not a great singer lately both studio and live. The thing is about Dickinson is he is loyal to exact vocal melodies the band wrote and mind that I don't find IR vocals are that hard but James always goes extra for live and that usually doesn't end well.
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See, the difference between Gillan or Dickinson or whoever and Labrie is (and I’m sure the majority will agree) they just don’t sound as frickin WEIRD or cringey as James does when they’re off. You know, stuff like constantly putting a W in front of every vowel: “Wi’m alive again, darkness far behind me, Wi’m invincible . . .”. That kind of stuff is just so annoying and distracting, much more so than someone just not hitting a note quite right or high enough.
I don't know if we listen same singers, maybe you put your personal thought in it but even prime Gillan was not good and not a powerhouse and yes Dickinson is a great frontman but not a great singer lately both studio and live. The thing is about Dickinson is he is loyal to exact vocal melodies the band wrote and mind that I don't find IR vocals are that hard but James always goes extra for live and that usually doesn't end well.
(https://imgpile.com/images/Ttzqju.jpg)
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See, the difference between Gillan or Dickinson or whoever and Labrie is (and I’m sure the majority will agree) they just don’t sound as frickin WEIRD or cringey as James does when they’re off. You know, stuff like constantly putting a W in front of every vowel: “Wi’m alive again, darkness far behind me, Wi’m invincible . . .”. That kind of stuff is just so annoying and distracting, much more so than someone just not hitting a note quite right or high enough.
I don't know if we listen same singers, maybe you put your personal thought in it but even prime Gillan was not good and not a powerhouse and yes Dickinson is a great frontman but not a great singer lately both studio and live. The thing is about Dickinson is he is loyal to exact vocal melodies the band wrote and mind that I don't find IR vocals are that hard but James always goes extra for live and that usually doesn't end well.
Ooh, I don't know if that's true or not; there are some shows from '72 where he's every bit the equal of Blackmore, Lord and Paice (three of the best musicians on their instruments in rock).
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One may not like Gillan but calling him not good even in his prime is just silly.
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Yeah, silly of me. bad wording. I can't deny some of his prime live performance are tasteful but inconsistent in that era too. Same goes for Geddy Lee (for many that I can't name right now). I still enjoy watching old videos of them time to time.
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I'm here for the Yugo commentary.
:rollin
Had a classmate of mine in law school who had one of these. Drove it from New Orleans to Boston and had that thing all three years. Whenever I said something, he was like "dude, I paid 50 bucks for this thing, it's easy to fix, and great on gas." Smart guy.
Yugos for the win.
(https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/yugo-gv-placement-1528210669.jpg)
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Let's just say that whatever they say that you cannot do in a Yugo...I proved them all wrong.
One night while "parking" I had lowered my driver's side seat so it laid kind of flat. The problem was, it wouldn't go back up. I literally drove about 30 miles as if I was sitting on a bench with no back. :lol
I've also told this story here before, but one day when I was in college, I went out to my car and found it SIDEWAYS in my parking spot. :facepalm:
Being that there were cars parked on both sides, I got a few of my friends and we picked it up and straightened it out. :lol
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Let's just say that whatever they say that you cannot do in a Yugo...I proved them all wrong.
One night while "parking" I had lowered my driver's side seat so it laid kind of flat. The problem was, it wouldn't go back up. I literally drove about 30 miles as if I was sitting on a bench with no back. :lol
I've also told this story here before, but one day when I was in college, I went out to my car and found it SIDEWAYS in my parking spot. :facepalm:
Being that there were cars parked on both sides, I got a few of my friends and we picked it up and straightened it out. :lol
CLASSIC!
We used to pick up my buddy's during snow storms and move it to the road. Less hassle for six of us to do that, rather than shovel.
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Huh....I never would have guessed that a Yugo is a car. I learned something today.
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See, the difference between Gillan or Dickinson or whoever and Labrie is (and I’m sure the majority will agree) they just don’t sound as frickin WEIRD or cringey as James does when they’re off. You know, stuff like constantly putting a W in front of every vowel: “Wi’m alive again, darkness far behind me, Wi’m invincible . . .”. That kind of stuff is just so annoying and distracting, much more so than someone just not hitting a note quite right or high enough.
I think James LaBrie sounds so much better than Gillan. Way, way, way better, in fact.
Dickinson, of course, is not a fair comparison. Those songs are more about energy and the occasional operatic than they are about navigating a tricky vocal passage in an odd time signature the way James does. Bruce is one of my favorite singers, but Iron Maiden melodies are way more simple than Dream Theater ones, and the crowd sing for Bruce half of the time.
Bruce has had to scream several Number of the Beast songs and other 80s songs EVERY SINGLE SHOW for 40 years. Thousands of shows. Not exactly a walk in the park. And I only brought up Gillan because someone else did, I should have referenced Halford instead.
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See, the difference between Gillan or Dickinson or whoever and Labrie is (and I’m sure the majority will agree) they just don’t sound as frickin WEIRD or cringey as James does when they’re off. You know, stuff like constantly putting a W in front of every vowel: “Wi’m alive again, darkness far behind me, Wi’m invincible . . .”. That kind of stuff is just so annoying and distracting, much more so than someone just not hitting a note quite right or high enough.
I think James LaBrie sounds so much better than Gillan. Way, way, way better, in fact.
Dickinson, of course, is not a fair comparison. Those songs are more about energy and the occasional operatic than they are about navigating a tricky vocal passage in an odd time signature the way James does. Bruce is one of my favorite singers, but Iron Maiden melodies are way more simple than Dream Theater ones, and the crowd sing for Bruce half of the time.
Bruce has had to scream several Number of the Beast songs and other 80s songs EVERY SINGLE SHOW for 40 years. Thousands of shows. Not exactly a walk in the park. And I only brought up Gillan because someone else did, I should have referenced Halford instead.
Those songs all have very easy vocal melodies. Most of The Number of the Beast is like... mostly 3 notes in the same octave range, with a few theatrics (hello reverb, crowd noise, and backing vocals). Most other Maiden songs are similar. I am a HUGE Maiden fan. This is not a knock on them at all.
Just not comparable to anything James does on a regular basis.
So many posts here about James' vocals and what people think he lacks compared to other singers. James has issues, but far more what I notice is just that people on this forum do not have the musical knowledge to really understand, comment, and fully appreciate what James does, let alone critique him.
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See, the difference between Gillan or Dickinson or whoever and Labrie is (and I’m sure the majority will agree) they just don’t sound as frickin WEIRD or cringey as James does when they’re off. You know, stuff like constantly putting a W in front of every vowel: “Wi’m alive again, darkness far behind me, Wi’m invincible . . .”. That kind of stuff is just so annoying and distracting, much more so than someone just not hitting a note quite right or high enough.
I think James LaBrie sounds so much better than Gillan. Way, way, way better, in fact.
Dickinson, of course, is not a fair comparison. Those songs are more about energy and the occasional operatic than they are about navigating a tricky vocal passage in an odd time signature the way James does. Bruce is one of my favorite singers, but Iron Maiden melodies are way more simple than Dream Theater ones, and the crowd sing for Bruce half of the time.
Bruce has had to scream several Number of the Beast songs and other 80s songs EVERY SINGLE SHOW for 40 years. Thousands of shows. Not exactly a walk in the park. And I only brought up Gillan because someone else did, I should have referenced Halford instead.
Those songs all have very easy vocal melodies. Most of The Number of the Beast is like... mostly 3 notes in the same octave range, with a few theatrics (hello reverb, crowd noise, and backing vocals). Most other Maiden songs are similar. I am a HUGE Maiden fan. This is not a knock on them at all.
Just not comparable to anything James does on a regular basis.
So many posts here about James' vocals and what people think he lacks compared to other singers. James has issues, but far more what I notice is just that people on this forum do not have the musical knowledge to really understand, comment, and fully appreciate what James does, let alone critique him.
So... not arguing with you - I agree with all you wrote, actually - but devil's advocate: is that necessary? What role does just what hits the ears play? It's not really a discussion that Yngwie is a better guitar player, technically, than Ace, but who has touched more people? If the material is SO technical that it gets in the way of the essential part of art, which is communication, what does that say?
Let's assume that on the original versions in the studio, there was equal "connection". Number of the Beast, Smoke on the Water, and Pull Me Under all touched the same number of people. If today, in 2022, Bruce can still connect, whether he's singing simpler melodies or changing the more complicated ones, and Ian can still connect, whether he's singing simpler melodies or changing the more complicated ones, but James cannot, isn't that a factor? I'm not saying James isn't - I actually LOVED his performance on the last tour - but that's the real question that we as fans have to ask.
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See, the difference between Gillan or Dickinson or whoever and Labrie is (and I’m sure the majority will agree) they just don’t sound as frickin WEIRD or cringey as James does when they’re off. You know, stuff like constantly putting a W in front of every vowel: “Wi’m alive again, darkness far behind me, Wi’m invincible . . .”. That kind of stuff is just so annoying and distracting, much more so than someone just not hitting a note quite right or high enough.
I think James LaBrie sounds so much better than Gillan. Way, way, way better, in fact.
Dickinson, of course, is not a fair comparison. Those songs are more about energy and the occasional operatic than they are about navigating a tricky vocal passage in an odd time signature the way James does. Bruce is one of my favorite singers, but Iron Maiden melodies are way more simple than Dream Theater ones, and the crowd sing for Bruce half of the time.
Bruce has had to scream several Number of the Beast songs and other 80s songs EVERY SINGLE SHOW for 40 years. Thousands of shows. Not exactly a walk in the park. And I only brought up Gillan because someone else did, I should have referenced Halford instead.
Those songs all have very easy vocal melodies. Most of The Number of the Beast is like... mostly 3 notes in the same octave range, with a few theatrics (hello reverb, crowd noise, and backing vocals). Most other Maiden songs are similar. I am a HUGE Maiden fan. This is not a knock on them at all.
Just not comparable to anything James does on a regular basis.
So many posts here about James' vocals and what people think he lacks compared to other singers. James has issues, but far more what I notice is just that people on this forum do not have the musical knowledge to really understand, comment, and fully appreciate what James does, let alone critique him.
So... not arguing with you - I agree with all you wrote, actually - but devil's advocate: is that necessary? What role does just what hits the ears play? ...
I think Skeever's take in his two posts is dead on. I agree with every word. And I think he DOES fully take into account "what hits the ears." If you don't like how James sounds, that's fine. But Skeever isn't saying that you have to have musical knowledge to appreciate what James does. I think what he is saying is that a lot of the stupid and mostly baseless criticism by a vocal few just shows a lot of ignorance, Dream Team's recent pots being a recent poster child for that. And, again, that isn't to say that James is immune from criticism. He isn't. And if anyone doesn't like his style, or some of the mechanics he employs, that's fine. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. But especially for a thread that expressly said in the initial post that this was NOT about bashing James, there are a few that clearly don't understand or willfully choose to ignore the wisdom of "it's not what you say; it's how you say it."
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Fair points. Got it.
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Yes... no offense to Dream Team. If you don't like James' voice, fair enough. People here have mentioned Gillan. I've never quite loved Gillan's voice. It's just not my cup of tea. To me, he was fine in his prime, but really hard for me to listen to after that. If people feel that way about James, that's fine.
But it's just frustrating to see, again and again, very baseless judgments on what James is "doing wrong" as a singer, and even more baseless comparisons to singers that really are nothing like him.
I am barely passable when it comes to music theory, but even I can sit down at the piano and play the melody to "Number of the Beast" or "The Trooper", and then play any number of James melodies, and hear how much more complex it is in terms of using more notes and range, more complicated timing/syncopation, key changes, and so on. That is why I think that you simply can not use what Bruce does as a rationale for why you feel James should sound a certain way at his age. What the two men are doing, even on their latest albums, is very different, and always has been.
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But especially for a thread that expressly said in the initial post that this was NOT about bashing James, there are a few that clearly don't understand or willfully choose to ignore the wisdom of "it's not what you say; it's how you say it."
This.
As the person who started this thread, I did so with the intent of drumming up support for James and acknowledging what he has to do on a nightly basis is difficult, and he's giving it his all. Finding ways so that James can maximize what he has night after night.
I almost passed on starting the thread, and likely should have, because I was concerned about it spiraling into a criticism thread. So those that are comparing Labrie to others and being critical, instead perhaps consider what I just said above, and discuss ways to help James be as consistent as I know he wants to be, night after night.
I have also noticed he's changing/flattening the melody lines in order to sing them better. Not sure that works for ME (someone mentioned 6:00...it was a little odd for me to hear it that way), but I think if they are going to keep the early-mid-90s catalog in rotation, that is going to have to be what JLB does. And I think the band needs to examine re-arranging some songs entirely from I&W and Awake to better support JLB.
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To Skeever and Samsara, just so you know I'm with you. I'm a fan of James, he's the reason I became a DT fan to begin with, and as I said I thought he was excellent when I saw them a couple months ago.
Here's an interesting thing: Paul Stanley. I'm not comparing him to James, so don't misunderstand me, but over the years, I think he's sung about five different versions of Detroit Rock City. That's one of their signature tunes, and as far back as 1980 in Australia, he has sung different melodies for the verses of that song. As I said, with all the live stuff I have of Kiss, I think I have about five or six different versions of the song. Some are, arguably, BETTER than the original even if they are quite different and maybe hard to get comfortable with.
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No, I actually get what you are saying, and I think it's a legit comparison in the context of this thread topic. And to take a very specific, but very limited example for James, Learning To Live on the LSFNY release is interesting. Like many, I was instantly struck the first time I heard it by the fact that James did NOT go for the F# in Learning To Live. But from the first time I heard it, it didn't bother me because he hit the notes he was going for in altering that melody, and he did some vamping following it that sounded really good. Although I love it when musicians push the envelope and go for it during live performances, I also respect knowing when it's not going to happen and altering a part so that it still sounds good in the context of the song. To me and my ears, I would much rather hear James alter a melody and go for "easier" notes if he isn't feeling like he can likely get the "big note" than to go for it and miss badly. I've heard him--and other singers, including the likes of Bruce--go for it and go off key when missing the notes, and I prefer just altering the melody, even if it's a part that is kind of a signature climax like that F#. I've never had the least problem with how James sings that on LSFNY, and it is actually one of my favorite versions of the song.
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Bosk, this one is for you. First off, I love James' voice for the record. That said, do you think the band would or should call it quits if James couldn't tour anymore? AND, would you still be a fan if they did replace him? I'm genuinely curious.
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Bosk, this one is for you. First off, I love James' voice for the record. That said, do you think the band would or should call it quits if James couldn't tour anymore?
No idea. Whether they would, it's hard to say. JP is the driving force, and it seems like he would want to keep making music and touring regardless. But if the day came where they parted ways with James for whatever reason, I have no idea what they would do. As for whether they "should," not necessarily. Bands continue with new singers all the time. Sometimes it works out great. Other times it doesn't.
AND, would you still be a fan if they did replace him? I'm genuinely curious.
I couldn't possibly answer that without first knowing who the hypothetical replacement would be and hearing that person in the band. I had no idea who Steve Augeri or Arnel Pineda were prior to them being hired in Journey. Same with Todd LaTorre in Queensryche. I did know who Michael Sweet was prior to him singing with Boston and I knew who Floor Jansen was prior to her singing with Nightwish. But in none of those cases would/could I have told you whether I would have continued to be a fan of those bands with replacement singers prior to knowing who the replacements were and then hearing how they sounded in those bands. With DT, I suspect if they were to ever bring in somebody new, it would be someone that was capable of doing the material justice, so I suspect that I would continue to be a fan. But I couldn't tell you for sure because, at present, it is such a wildly speculative scenario, and I can't possibly predict how (or IF) it could ever play out.
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To Skeever and Samsara, just so you know I'm with you. I'm a fan of James, he's the reason I became a DT fan to begin with, and as I said I thought he was excellent when I saw them a couple months ago.
Here's an interesting thing: Paul Stanley. I'm not comparing him to James, so don't misunderstand me, but over the years, I think he's sung about five different versions of Detroit Rock City. That's one of their signature tunes, and as far back as 1980 in Australia, he has sung different melodies for the verses of that song. As I said, with all the live stuff I have of Kiss, I think I have about five or six different versions of the song. Some are, arguably, BETTER than the original even if they are quite different and maybe hard to get comfortable with.
Yeah, that's a good point, I mean, just change the arrangements. Hell, play stuff acoustically. I feel like Dream Theater has gotten very...sterile in its approach over the years. Why not take some chances? Let me hear an acoustic version of some of those tracks from I&W and Awake, etc. Change it up so James is put in the best position to succeed. And if it just isn't right, as much as it would suck, drop the songs from the set. The nice thing about DT is they have so much material now that is beloved by the fanbase, particularly from the last 20 years, they'd be fine.
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Hell, play stuff acoustically. I feel like Dream Theater has gotten very...sterile in its approach over the years. Why not take some chances? Let me hear an acoustic version of some of those tracks from I&W and Awake, etc. Change it up so James is put in the best position to succeed. And if it just isn't right, as much as it would suck, drop the songs from the set. The nice thing about DT is they have so much material now that is beloved by the fanbase, particularly from the last 20 years, they'd be fine.
I thought them doing the three epics at the end of this tour's shows was a great idea. Pace him so he finishes strong. I'd be cool for a little acoustic set. Add some instrumentals.
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Hell, play stuff acoustically. I feel like Dream Theater has gotten very...sterile in its approach over the years. Why not take some chances? Let me hear an acoustic version of some of those tracks from I&W and Awake, etc. Change it up so James is put in the best position to succeed. And if it just isn't right, as much as it would suck, drop the songs from the set. The nice thing about DT is they have so much material now that is beloved by the fanbase, particularly from the last 20 years, they'd be fine.
I thought them doing the three epics at the end of this tour's shows was a great idea. Pace him so he finishes strong. I'd be cool for a little acoustic set. Add some instrumentals.
They should do 3 epics every tour! ;D
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One thing is for sure in my mind: if they ever replaced JLB, it would be with a far more technical vocalist-- similar to the drummer search.
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Bosk, this one is for you. First off, I love James' voice for the record. That said, do you think the band would or should call it quits if James couldn't tour anymore?
No idea. Whether they would, it's hard to say. JP is the driving force, and it seems like he would want to keep making music and touring regardless. But if the day came where they parted ways with James for whatever reason, I have no idea what they would do. As for whether they "should," not necessarily. Bands continue with new singers all the time. Sometimes it works out great. Other times it doesn't.
AND, would you still be a fan if they did replace him? I'm genuinely curious.
I couldn't possibly answer that without first knowing who the hypothetical replacement would be and hearing that person in the band. I had no idea who Steve Augeri or Arnel Pineda were prior to them being hired in Journey. Same with Todd LaTorre in Queensryche. I did know who Michael Sweet was prior to him singing with Boston and I knew who Floor Jansen was prior to her singing with Nightwish. But in none of those cases would/could I have told you whether I would have continued to be a fan of those bands with replacement singers prior to knowing who the replacements were and then hearing how they sounded in those bands. With DT, I suspect if they were to ever bring in somebody new, it would be someone that was capable of doing the material justice, so I suspect that I would continue to be a fan. But I couldn't tell you for sure because, at present, it is such a wildly speculative scenario, and I can't possibly predict how (or IF) it could ever play out.
Impressive and thorough response, thank you!!! Ideally I prefer James for the remainder of their career but I think if they did go that route it would be an even more involved process than the MP replacement. In the end I believe they would choose a stunner, all hypothetical of course. Its just good to know their ARE fans that would be open minded to it if it were to happen. Thanks Bosk man :)
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It's less about being open minded, as not having a choice. If I want to continue listening to Dream Theater, I have to like or at least tolerate their new singer. He may turn out to be awesome.
But it's one thing to be an awesome singer, and another thing to convey emotion. I've always considered James to actually be DT's secret weapon. If they had just a technical singer, I just don't think it'd translate. Dream Theater is the genre leader because their fans are emotionally invested in their music. There are a million bands that play like maniacs, but Dream Theater are great songwriters, but by bringing these songs to the surface through James, I think that's always been their sneaky advantage.
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It's less about being open minded, as not having a choice. If I want to continue listening to Dream Theater, I have to like or at least tolerate their new singer. He may turn out to be awesome.
But it's one thing to be an awesome singer, and another thing to convey emotion. I've always considered James to actually be DT's secret weapon. If they had just a technical singer, I just don't think it'd translate. Dream Theater is the genre leader because their fans are emotionally invested in their music. There are a million bands that play like maniacs, but Dream Theater are great songwriters, but by bringing these songs to the surface through James, I think that's always been their sneaky advantage.
I agree 100%. If this were to happen I'm sure it wouldnt be a generic dude hitting all the notes like a clone and basically being a JLB jukebox. It would not be an easy task and I truly hope it never comes down to it. My gut feeling is they make this work until its time. Realistically how many more albums and tours do you really think James can pull off before its a "Weekend At Bernies" situation? :lol
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At a show I was at, he said something like "Yes I'll be singing Images and Words when I'm 70"
And there's no real reason why he shouldn't. Age does not affect the trained professional voice to the extent or in the ways that many think it does. Yes, the cords can thicken and/or become less flexible, but this is managed by the singer reworking their technique as the body changes. There have been many singers at the Met singing well way into their 70's - including high sopranos singing the Queen of the Night.
This is not to say that James can do no wrong as I don't dispute that I've heard him struggle but something else is going on there that has nothing to do with his age. His having been through a vocal injury may have something to do with it, or failure to rework technical issues as they arise (as they will for singers of all ages, because it's a physical instrument), but it's not simply his age. The voice changes throughout life, and about every ten years it's a singer's responsibility to check in with a vocal coach and rework how they approach certain things (I don't know him so maybe he has done this). A singer never stops learning and relearning. At the very least, even if everything technical is online, a vocal coach can help a singer at any level to catch bad habits before they either sound bad or even become physically detrimental. I really wish people would stop using this "well he's 30 years older" excuse because it's just not grounded in fact.
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I might be completely off base here, but i feel that apart from the natural decline of his voice, he hasn't done much (apart from his routine) to work with a vocal coach or something in the recent years. Starting from the Astonishing tour, his voice has been on a steady decline, and i've seen probably all sorts of bootlegs that exist from every tour.
I don't know if a new vocal coach could help him regain some of his ability, and i still admire the hard work he has put for the band all these years.
Yes! I do think a good vocal coach could help him, as I said in my above post.
I too see the "decline" happen coinciding with the Astonishing tour and I think there are reasons for that, and all having to do with the setting in of bad vocal habits. James had to create several character voices for Astonishing -with which he did an amazing job! - and some of them were, perhaps to re-create on tour, more brutal to his voice than others. Especially Lord Nefaryus with that sneering, almost nasal tone and over-the-top delivery of the lines. The character calls for this, but I really think all this voice acting allowed bad habits to come in, such as a too-forward placement, a raised larynx, and a disconnection from the breath, the latter being the undoing of any (even the greatest) singer's healthy, sustainable technique. There are literally times when I'm watching a post-Astonishing live clip and I hear that over-the-top-ness sneaking in (we all know what that sounds like by now) and my face is in my hands, shaking my head saying, "Oh heavens, he's doing Nefaryus again". And that's the last thing I want to hear during Scenes from a Memory. I 100% think a vocal coach could definitely help him out of this!
That said I love James, he is my favorite singer of all time and like others have already said I wouldn't want to see him replaced. I would rather see DT retire as DT if James needed to retire and see the rest of the band continue on as LTE.
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But it's one thing to be an awesome singer, and another thing to convey emotion. I've always considered James to actually be DT's secret weapon. If they had just a technical singer, I just don't think it'd translate. Dream Theater is the genre leader because their fans are emotionally invested in their music. There are a million bands that play like maniacs, but Dream Theater are great songwriters, but by bringing these songs to the surface through James, I think that's always been their sneaky advantage.
:metal
Exactly this. He always has been. That said, I wouldn't call JLB a "non-technical" singer. He clearly follows certain techniques. He's a rock singer though. Not a clinician.
And there's no real reason why he shouldn't. Age does not affect the trained professional voice to the extent or in the ways that many think it does. Yes, the cords can thicken and/or become less flexible, but this is managed by the singer reworking their technique as the body changes. There have been many singers at the Met singing well way into their 70's - including high sopranos singing the Queen of the Night.
This is not to say that James can do no wrong as I don't dispute that I've heard him struggle but something else is going on there that has nothing to do with his age. His having been through a vocal injury may have something to do with it, or failure to rework technical issues as they arise (as they will for singers of all ages, because it's a physical instrument), but it's not simply his age. The voice changes throughout life, and about every ten years it's a singer's responsibility to check in with a vocal coach and rework how they approach certain things (I don't know him so maybe he has done this). A singer never stops learning and relearning. At the very least, even if everything technical is online, a vocal coach can help a singer at any level to catch bad habits before they either sound bad or even become physically detrimental. I really wish people would stop using this "well he's 30 years older" excuse because it's just not grounded in fact.
Absolutely. My point in using age in the original post is not to use it as an excuse, but to point out exactly what you described - every decade or so, things change. And as you said, rightly so, checking in with a vocal coach (which, to be honest, I'd be surprised if JLB DOESN'T do that that) helps smooth some of those things out. Bottom line, every singer is different. Some roll with those changes well (Myles Kennedy and Corey Glover come to mind immediately), some it takes a lot more effort, and some just can't/won't do it.
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It's less about being open minded, as not having a choice. If I want to continue listening to Dream Theater, I have to like or at least tolerate their new singer. He may turn out to be awesome.
But it's one thing to be an awesome singer, and another thing to convey emotion. I've always considered James to actually be DT's secret weapon. If they had just a technical singer, I just don't think it'd translate. Dream Theater is the genre leader because their fans are emotionally invested in their music. There are a million bands that play like maniacs, but Dream Theater are great songwriters, but by bringing these songs to the surface through James, I think that's always been their sneaky advantage.
Yeah, I've checked out several so-called "DT Clones" over the years, and the vocals are always lacking, IMO.
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It's less about being open minded, as not having a choice. If I want to continue listening to Dream Theater, I have to like or at least tolerate their new singer. He may turn out to be awesome.
But it's one thing to be an awesome singer, and another thing to convey emotion. I've always considered James to actually be DT's secret weapon. If they had just a technical singer, I just don't think it'd translate. Dream Theater is the genre leader because their fans are emotionally invested in their music. There are a million bands that play like maniacs, but Dream Theater are great songwriters, but by bringing these songs to the surface through James, I think that's always been their sneaky advantage.
LOVE this post. :tup
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But it's one thing to be an awesome singer, and another thing to convey emotion. I've always considered James to actually be DT's secret weapon. If they had just a technical singer, I just don't think it'd translate. Dream Theater is the genre leader because their fans are emotionally invested in their music. There are a million bands that play like maniacs, but Dream Theater are great songwriters, but by bringing these songs to the surface through James, I think that's always been their sneaky advantage.
:metal
Exactly this. He always has been. That said, I wouldn't call JLB a "non-technical" singer. He clearly follows certain techniques. He's a rock singer though. Not a clinician.
And there's no real reason why he shouldn't. Age does not affect the trained professional voice to the extent or in the ways that many think it does. Yes, the cords can thicken and/or become less flexible, but this is managed by the singer reworking their technique as the body changes. There have been many singers at the Met singing well way into their 70's - including high sopranos singing the Queen of the Night.
This is not to say that James can do no wrong as I don't dispute that I've heard him struggle but something else is going on there that has nothing to do with his age. His having been through a vocal injury may have something to do with it, or failure to rework technical issues as they arise (as they will for singers of all ages, because it's a physical instrument), but it's not simply his age. The voice changes throughout life, and about every ten years it's a singer's responsibility to check in with a vocal coach and rework how they approach certain things (I don't know him so maybe he has done this). A singer never stops learning and relearning. At the very least, even if everything technical is online, a vocal coach can help a singer at any level to catch bad habits before they either sound bad or even become physically detrimental. I really wish people would stop using this "well he's 30 years older" excuse because it's just not grounded in fact.
Absolutely. My point in using age in the original post is not to use it as an excuse, but to point out exactly what you described - every decade or so, things change. And as you said, rightly so, checking in with a vocal coach (which, to be honest, I'd be surprised if JLB DOESN'T do that that) helps smooth some of those things out. Bottom line, every singer is different. Some roll with those changes well (Myles Kennedy and Corey Glover come to mind immediately), some it takes a lot more effort, and some just can't/won't do it.
Technical doesn't really mean does or does not follow SOME techniques or good vs. bad.
John Petrucci is a technical player. BB King was not though he obviously adhered to some techniques or else he wouldn't have been able to play well. That's to say nothing at all about how good the latter was at playing the genre he excelled in.
JLB is certainly not a technical vocalist, since for one he consistently misses notes all over the place-- it's just a contradiction in concepts.
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Just because someone misses notes doesn't mean they aren't a technical singer. Shit happens. It's a concert.
JLB has a certain way that he's been taught and that he's developed, and he follows it logically. That is, by definition, a "technique." I don't think we differ there. But if someone follows that technique, and applies it to a task, whether the result is good or bad, they are being "technical." That's how I understand it.
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But it's one thing to be an awesome singer, and another thing to convey emotion. I've always considered James to actually be DT's secret weapon. If they had just a technical singer, I just don't think it'd translate. Dream Theater is the genre leader because their fans are emotionally invested in their music. There are a million bands that play like maniacs, but Dream Theater are great songwriters, but by bringing these songs to the surface through James, I think that's always been their sneaky advantage.
:metal
Exactly this. He always has been. That said, I wouldn't call JLB a "non-technical" singer. He clearly follows certain techniques. He's a rock singer though. Not a clinician.
Maybe I threw everyone off with my comment about being a technical singer. The emphasis should've been on the word "just". I wasn't trying to refer to James as a non technical singer, but that he brings more to the table than someone who just sings really good.
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No matter what are your thoughts on his voice or live performances, I think we can all agree that James is technically a singer.
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But it's one thing to be an awesome singer, and another thing to convey emotion. I've always considered James to actually be DT's secret weapon. If they had just a technical singer, I just don't think it'd translate. Dream Theater is the genre leader because their fans are emotionally invested in their music. There are a million bands that play like maniacs, but Dream Theater are great songwriters, but by bringing these songs to the surface through James, I think that's always been their sneaky advantage.
:metal
Exactly this. He always has been. That said, I wouldn't call JLB a "non-technical" singer. He clearly follows certain techniques. He's a rock singer though. Not a clinician.
Maybe I threw everyone off with my comment about being a technical singer. The emphasis should've been on the word "just". I wasn't trying to refer to James as a non technical singer, but that he brings more to the table than someone who just sings really good.
I think I know exactly what you mean. Bosk1 mentioned Live Scenes from New York which is one of my favorite releases from any band. If you ask whether I'd want to listen to that performance or the album performed by peak Adam Lambert, I would choose James every time.
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Replying to the original question... Yeah, they should drop the tuning (AAMOF, didn't they do just that with I&W in the past years?). No shame in doing that since I reckon the vast majority of rock bands with really talented singers do it eventually. Heck, even Def Leppard did it right after releasing Hysteria in 1987 so... Yeah.
I guess James didn't have much vocal coaching in his early DT years. You can hear it in the live bootlegs of that era: Forcing his voice to a more coarse sound in order to secure the high notes in nights where he wasn't too well would eventually catch up to him. He was pretty much the best rock singer alive back then so that didn't take its toll at the time, but I think it worsened his vocal injury in 94.
I'm not sure if he has a personal vocal coach right now (I think he has, or at least has had one in the past) but if he isn't, he probably should get one. He is and always will be one of my favorite singers of all time and a source of inspiration for me personally, and the whole lip-syncing thing in the current tour just saddens me. I'm sure he wouldn't do it unless in extreme circumstances, and I really hope he gets back in form.
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the whole lip-syncing thing in the current tour just saddens me. I'm sure he wouldn't do it unless in extreme circumstances, and I really hope he gets back in form.
The bit in BITS isn't lip-synced; he is audibly singing the line an octave lower, albeit in an unusually quiet tone. Which is sort of what I assume JP does when he's on the mic.
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Replying to the original question... Yeah, they should drop the tuning (AAMOF, didn't they do just that with I&W in the past years?). No shame in doing that since I reckon the vast majority of rock bands with really talented singers do it eventually. Heck, even Def Leppard did it right after releasing Hysteria in 1987 so... Yeah.
Wait... "really talented singers"... "Def Leppard"... what? :) :) :)
I love Joe Elliott, and I'm a huge fan of Leppard, at least up to Adrenalize, but he always struck me as one of those guys that could scream on key in the garage, and so got the singer gig, at least until he blew his voice out on tour. Hetfield is another one. Maybe he's different now (he's a smart guy and takes his band VERY seriously) and has a vocal coach to keep himself in shape, but he never struck me as a very "technically savvy" singer in the same way that James is now, with hot tea, medium tea, cold water, whatever it is he does in his routine.
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the whole lip-syncing thing in the current tour just saddens me. I'm sure he wouldn't do it unless in extreme circumstances, and I really hope he gets back in form.
The bit in BITS isn't lip-synced; he is audibly singing the line an octave lower, albeit in an unusually quiet tone. Which is sort of what I assume JP does when he's on the mic.
Why JP even bothers is beyond me. It's such a fake move. And yes, I know there is actual sound coming out of JP's mouth, but you can't hear it in the mix, and it looks ridiculous.
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This is one area where MP was a MASSIVE loss.
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This is one area where MP was a MASSIVE loss.
I agree.
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This is one area where MP was a MASSIVE loss.
I agree.
I actually don't, because there were too many live instances where Portnoy tried to sing too loud, almost like he was trying to sing over James rather than supporting him with a backup vocal. Even on the live acoustic version of Cover My Eyes from 5 Years in a Livetime, which I am a big fan of, Portnoy booms out the last "Have I lost my mind!" so loud that he almost drowns out James.
The problem is just that James' voice isn't what it used to be, so the overreliance on backing tracks just magnifies it.
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Just because someone misses notes doesn't mean they aren't a technical singer. Shit happens. It's a concert.
JLB has a certain way that he's been taught and that he's developed, and he follows it logically. That is, by definition, a "technique." I don't think we differ there. But if someone follows that technique, and applies it to a task, whether the result is good or bad, they are being "technical." That's how I understand it.
It's not a one-time or rare thing. It's nearly every single show that is a mess. Look at videos from the most recent South America leg. The execution is just not there vocally and it's very apparent. It has nothing to do with my preference of style or feelings about his place in DT's legacy.
Also, your definition of technical doesn't really mean anything and is hyper-literal and outside of a commonly understood idiomatic meaning. If all 'technical' means is that someone follows a technique then nearly every single person who sings or plays anything at all after one lesson would be technical. That is very obviously not the meaning. The example I provided earlier perfectly illustrates what most understand: JP is a technical guitarist and BB King is/was not (though they both follow some techniques). It's not even a bad thing, per se, and BB is obviously a legendary and prolific musician. It just precludes membership if someone literally can barely sing a basic song in tune in a live setting, since executing pitches is a core function of any musician. That was my point.
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I definitely would not consider James LaBrie to be a very technical singer.
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I definitely would not consider James LaBrie to be a very technical singer.
He would not have been able to give us the music we know and love all this time if he were not.
As one who comes from a classical background, his level of proficiency for someone outside the classical genre is what initially impressed me about him. I knew this was a well-trained singer who took his art very seriously. And as DT is a band that is levels above all others, this aspect was a perfect fit.
I've written many posts about what I think has been going on with him in recent years, so I won't repeat myself here. I will say that fixing technical issues takes time and, as I'm certain the rest of the band understands, we need to have patience with whatever he's going through. The voice is a physical instrument, it's not something you can practice ten hours a day with. It's about building (or in his case rebuilding) flexibility, coordination, and muscle memory. As one of my own teachers always said, a singer is a type of athlete.
Slow improvement is still improvement. I don't think we're that far off from the day when he can once again consistently stick the landing.
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I definitely would not consider James LaBrie to be a very technical singer.
He would not have been able to give us the music we know and love all this time if he were not.
As one who comes from a classical background, his level of proficiency for someone outside the classical genre is what initially impressed me about him. I knew this was a well-trained singer who took his art very seriously. And as DT is a band that is levels above all others, this aspect was a perfect fit.
I've written many posts about what I think has been going on with him in recent years, so I won't repeat myself here. I will say that fixing technical issues takes time and, as I'm certain the rest of the band understands, we need to have patience with whatever he's going through. The voice is a physical instrument, it's not something you can practice ten hours a day with. It's about building (or in his case rebuilding) flexibility, coordination, and muscle memory. As one of my own teachers always said, a singer is a type of athlete.
Slow improvement is still improvement. I don't think we're that far off from the day when he can once again consistently stick the landing.
You're saying he must be technical because we love DT's music? That does not make a whole lot of sense. One could be a very earthy, gritty and untrained even and still make great music that we love.
Also, I do not agree he is improving on this tour relative to any tour in the past 10 years. He sounded better on DoT when I went to see them and I've watched enough videos from that tour to hear that this year is no better than any on DoT or Along for the Ride etc. You are kidding yourself if you think he is on an upward trajectory. To your point, the voice is a physical instrument; given that age takes a toll on everyone he is fighting an uphill battle. If he were in tip top peak performance shape this entire time I might feel more optimistic but we are starting on the back foot and battling an inevitability that affects every vocalist, good or bad.
The best case outcome for the next 10 years - if we are so lucky - is that the performances stay the same. This scenario would be a huge victory against mother nature, if you ask me. If he can't sing PMU now, there is no reason to think he will really stick the landing next year. He has been singing that song for 30 years. If he can't nail the Alien - a melody he wrote himself less than a year ago - he isn't going to do it in a couple years when he is in his 60s.
I am frustrated by the live shows but I have come to accept them over the years. If off-pitch out-of-breath singing bothers you and you want to enjoy the band's shows, acceptance is the key-- not a promise of a miraculous turn around in the future. Again, what we are experiencing now is nothing new.
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This thread has really taken a turn for the worse. It was meant as something to applaud Labrie's effort and perhaps suggest something that could help him be more consistent. Instead, many of you have taken it as a bash JLB thread, or take veiled shots at the guy.
It's not my board to run, but positive thought in which this thread was started has been missed by many of the responders. So if the mods could do us all a solid and lock it, it would be appreciated. Know-it-alls and negative commentary start to get ridiculous in a thread that was meant to be constructive and positive.
Thanks.
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This thread has really taken a turn for the worse. It was meant as something to applaud Labrie's effort and perhaps suggest something that could help him be more consistent. Instead, many of you have taken it as a bash JLB thread, or take veiled shots at the guy.
It's not my board to run, but positive thought in which this thread was started has been missed by many of the responders. So if the mods could do us all a solid and lock it, it would be appreciated. Know-it-alls and negative commentary start to get ridiculous in a thread that was meant to be constructive and positive.
Thanks.
So because you are upset by the criticism, the Mod should step in and shut down the discussion? The opinions must be 100% positive or else it is by definition bashing or taking shots? No one on this page has taken shots at anyone. The conversation is strictly about his performance, which is totally related to the original post. Some of you are taking this criticism entirely too personal on JLB's behalf.
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Thanks for your opinion.
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You're saying he must be technical because we love DT's music? That does not make a whole lot of sense.
You're right, it doesn't at all, and obviously there's some misunderstanding of my intent. Let me rephrase myself: His excellent vocal technique has allowed him all this time to contribute his part of the music we love. Isn't this true of all the band members? That doesn't mean that a singer has to be technical in order to do that, but with him, and the high-level music he sings, it has always been the case.
Also, I do not agree he is improving on this tour relative to any tour in the past 10 years.
You're entitled to your opinion, of course, and I am entitled to respectfully disagree!
You are kidding yourself if you think he is on an upward trajectory.
Is he? I hope he is. Only he, and his teachers/coaches, really know that for sure. I just hear less in this recent tour of the problems he's displayed since The Astonishing.
To your point, the voice is a physical instrument; given that age takes a toll on everyone he is fighting an uphill battle.
I've explained many times why "age" all by itself is not the issue everyone thinks it is. Yes, it does affect the voice, but 1. not in the ways that everyone is thinking/saying, and 2. not at his age *yet*. And even as he gets older, it's more about the way those changes are handled. There are great opera singers who sang well at 70 and 80. If they can do it, then I have every faith in James.
The best case outcome for the next 10 years - if we are so lucky - is that the performances stay the same.
And if that actually happens, then, it's his choice! Vocal decline is not some inevitable thing. Maybe if things do not change, it's because he's doing nothing. Or he is just happy to stay as things are. But I really doubt that coming from him.
not a promise of a miraculous turn around in the future.
No, not "miraculous". Such things take a lot of work. Please don't underestimate this. As much practice as it takes for an instrumentalist, it takes for a singer - and then, on top of that, extreme management of all the other factors (health, etc) that can affect how the voice sounds. Get one less hour of sleep, and you might not sound as good the next day. Eat something that causes acid reflux, and, wham - unclear cords the very next night. And, catch a head cold? Forget it. Everything, I mean everything, affects the voice.
This is not some blind hope that a miracle would happen. This is my opinion as someone who understands how the voice works having faith in my #1 vocal hero that he will put in the work and do the right thing.
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This thread has really taken a turn for the worse. It was meant as something to applaud Labrie's effort and perhaps suggest something that could help him be more consistent. Instead, many of you have taken it as a bash JLB thread, or take veiled shots at the guy.
It's not my board to run, but positive thought in which this thread was started has been missed by many of the responders. So if the mods could do us all a solid and lock it, it would be appreciated. Know-it-alls and negative commentary start to get ridiculous in a thread that was meant to be constructive and positive.
Thanks.
So because you are upset by the criticism, the Mod should step in and shut down the discussion? The opinions must be 100% positive or else it is by definition bashing or taking shots? No one on this page has taken shots at anyone. The conversation is strictly about his performance, which is totally related to the original post. Some of you are taking this criticism entirely too personal on JLB's behalf.
Agree with this.
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This thread has really taken a turn for the worse. It was meant as something to applaud Labrie's effort and perhaps suggest something that could help him be more consistent. Instead, many of you have taken it as a bash JLB thread, or take veiled shots at the guy.
It's not my board to run, but positive thought in which this thread was started has been missed by many of the responders. So if the mods could do us all a solid and lock it, it would be appreciated. Know-it-alls and negative commentary start to get ridiculous in a thread that was meant to be constructive and positive.
Thanks.
So because you are upset by the criticism, the Mod should step in and shut down the discussion? The opinions must be 100% positive or else it is by definition bashing or taking shots? No one on this page has taken shots at anyone. The conversation is strictly about his performance, which is totally related to the original post. Some of you are taking this criticism entirely too personal on JLB's behalf.
Agree with this.
I stand corrected on "taking shots." No one is doing that, at least not directly, and my apologies for insinuating that.
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No problem.
Most of us love the music he helped make over the years. We are just frustrated by the performances and that is all-- nothing personal about him. I am not even negative on the studio work, which still is fine to my ears.
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I'm not even sure which thread to put this..
I was watching the Amsterdam show tonight..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpsiXS_iUG8
It's brilliantly shot. Very steady and the sound is amazing.
So I want to highlight that but....
It's a brutal show for James.
Now I'm going to try and say this as...uninsulting as I can BUT.....
What is going on? This has not been a great tour for him.
Maybe he was sick. OK..But then hes been sick a lot.
I feel like this is simply not being prepared. I know the voice is an instrument and yadayadayada. But supposedly James is a PROFESSIONAL VOCALIST. Why can't he simply find a pocket to operate within? Does he not practice? It shouldn't be a crapshoot if the singer can sing when you buy a ticket to a concert. It's like he has NO strength. ZERO control.
I mean, Alice Cooper has a pocket and he still sounds pretty strong at 70something. Granted he's not singing the range needed for Dream Theater, but still. Professional. And does a hell of a lot more touring than DT does.
I don't know. It's just disappointing. I love James, and DT's music wouldn't be the same without him. But I have to ask...why is he where he is and is he really doing enough to master his craft? Some of the parts literally sounds like karaoke.
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WOW! Not a good look for DT. It saddens me honestly. How would the band respond if asked if they are going to let this continue? :sad:
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I do not know anything about performing music, but I can't help but think James could do something to deliver a solid performance without trying to be 100% James, as he is in the studio.
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I do not know anything about performing music, but I can't help but think James could do something to deliver a solid performance without trying to be 100% James, as he is in the studio.
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.
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Yeah, I am at a loss for words to explain it as well. I will reiterate that he is one of my all-time favorite singers, but he sounds like a guy whose voice is shot. It is sad to see.
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I do not know anything about performing music, but I can't help but think James could do something to deliver a solid performance without trying to be 100% James, as he is in the studio.
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.
Its probably pride. It seems he would rather try to sing them as they are recorded rather than modify them to his capable register. And just maybe the band doesn't want that. It doesn't make sense.
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I'm not even sure which thread to put this..
I was watching the Amsterdam show tonight..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpsiXS_iUG8
It's brilliantly shot. Very steady and the sound is amazing.
So I want to highlight that but....
It's a brutal show for James.
Now I'm going to try and say this as...uninsulting as I can BUT.....
What is going on? This has not been a great tour for him.
Maybe he was sick. OK..But then hes been sick a lot.
I feel like this is simply not being prepared. I know the voice is an instrument and yadayadayada. But supposedly James is a PROFESSIONAL VOCALIST. Why can't he simply find a pocket to operate within? Does he not practice? It shouldn't be a crapshoot if the singer can sing when you buy a ticket to a concert. It's like he has NO strength. ZERO control.
I mean, Alice Cooper has a pocket and he still sounds pretty strong at 70something. Granted he's not singing the range needed for Dream Theater, but still. Professional. And does a hell of a lot more touring than DT does.
I don't know. It's just disappointing. I love James, and DT's music wouldn't be the same without him. But I have to ask...why is he where he is and is he really doing enough to master his craft? Some of the parts literally sounds like karaoke.
He's voice is cooked mate. It's sad to see.
I keep saying it but I'd rather they play songs like TDEN or Rite of Passage where the vocals aren't challenging and James should be comfortable singing. I'd rather a set filled with odd choices or less favourited choices and not listen to him sing like this. Or tune down a fuckload.
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Would tuning down even work? Bridges in the Sky, the song we’ve much derided his performance of throughout the course of this tour, is already a 7-string song. Endless Sacrifice which it seems like he’s still having issues with is in D standard instead of E. It actually seems like he’s having more success with songs like Alien that are actually in standard but sung in a range that suits his current abilities. Maybe tuning isn’t the problem? Maybe he needs to swallow pride before it swallows him and just sing lower.
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Would tuning down even work? Bridges in the Sky, the song we’ve much derided his performance of throughout the course of this tour, is already a 7-string song. Endless Sacrifice which it seems like he’s still having issues with is in D standard instead of E. It actually seems like he’s having more success with songs like Alien that are actually in standard but sung in a range that suits his current abilities. Maybe tuning isn’t the problem? Maybe he needs to swallow pride before it swallows him and just sing lower.
I think song selections probably a safer bet.
Not sure what tuning they are playing ES live at the moment in but the original was in D standard mate, not E. Playing it in C or something would at least help him with the end part.
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Would tuning down even work? Bridges in the Sky, the song we’ve much derided his performance of throughout the course of this tour, is already a 7-string song. Endless Sacrifice which it seems like he’s still having issues with is in D standard instead of E. It actually seems like he’s having more success with songs like Alien that are actually in standard but sung in a range that suits his current abilities. Maybe tuning isn’t the problem? Maybe he needs to swallow pride before it swallows him and just sing lower.
I think song selections probably a safer bet.
Not sure what tuning they are playing ES live at the moment in but the original was in D standard mate, not E. Playing it in C or something would at least help him with the end part.
My point is that it is already lower than standard tuning, man. I could’ve made that a bit clearer, I agree.
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Would tuning down even work? Bridges in the Sky, the song we’ve much derided his performance of throughout the course of this tour, is already a 7-string song. Endless Sacrifice which it seems like he’s still having issues with is in D standard instead of E. It actually seems like he’s having more success with songs like Alien that are actually in standard but sung in a range that suits his current abilities. Maybe tuning isn’t the problem? Maybe he needs to swallow pride before it swallows him and just sing lower.
I think song selections probably a safer bet.
Not sure what tuning they are playing ES live at the moment in but the original was in D standard mate, not E. Playing it in C or something would at least help him with the end part.
My point is that it is already lower than standard tuning, man. I could’ve made that a bit clearer, I agree.
I get where you were going with that but DT have songs in all keys. No matter what key the song is in, taking down is going to take down the highs he has to hit. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know though.
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Tuning of the instrument and the key of the song/melody are not necessarily linked in that way—a song played on a guitar in D standard can have a melody that is in a higher register than a song played on a guitar in E standard.
Yes, tuning the guitar lower is the 'easiest' way to transpose a melody, but it is not required.
I would argue (and have in the past) that rather than dropping the tuning of any particular song, James should just choose a lower melody. For example, that entire final section of "Endless Sacrifice" that seems to be giving James fits could easily be remedied if he just sang the whole thing a 5th lower, or even an octave. Yes, it would lose some of it's 'oomph,' but it would be so much easier to control.
As for the backing tracks—I've posted before that they didn't bother me, but I take it all back. They are distracting as hell and since James is a fan of playing with the cadence of his melodies, they just don't work.
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Might be a silly question but do you think the band ever watches vids of their performances? You know like a football team watching film to study and learn. If they did and they were all sitting in the film room there would be some grimacing going on.
Not sure how or if JP addresses this. Maybe he doesn't think it's an issue.
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Might be a silly question but do you think the band ever watches vids of their performances? You know like a football team watching film to study and learn. If they did and they were all sitting in the film room there would be some grimacing going on.
Not sure how or if JP addresses this. Maybe he doesn't think it's an issue.
That's a really good question.
In my (admittedly much more limited) experience, you tend to be hyper-focused on yourself when playing on stage, so it's difficult to walk away from a show with an accurate understanding of how 'good' or 'bad' the band was as a whole. A generous audience clapping and cheering the whole time, while an awesome feeling, only makes it more difficult to discern how good things actually sound.
I've played gigs where I walked off stage unsure if I should even continue playing only to have dozens of people walk up to me and sing my praises. I've also played shows where I was absolutely untouchable and on-fire, but the only person who seemed to notice was, well, me.
For all of the reasons stated above, I'm a huge fan of taping/filming shows. That said, I've sat around with my band and reviewed shows and everyone tends to focus in on their performance—unless there's a super glaring clam, no one notices another person's playing more than the player in question—except for the vocals!
I suspect that JP and the rest of the band are VERY aware of James' struggles, and there is probably a ton of sympathy for him. I mean, a band-member is a co-worker, a brother, and a musical partner in crime. You spend thirty years with a guy, I'd have to think that your heart goes out to him when he's struggling.
There's two schools of thought when it comes to something like this: look to make a move, or look to make it work. The spirit of this thread is with making it work, which very much aligns with my personal management ethos.
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I agree with making it work. I’m just wondering if making it work is really in the band as a whole or if James is the one who needs to make the change for the better.
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Might be a silly question but do you think the band ever watches vids of their performances? You know like a football team watching film to study and learn. If they did and they were all sitting in the film room there would be some grimacing going on.
Not sure how or if JP addresses this. Maybe he doesn't think it's an issue.
That's a really good question.
In my (admittedly much more limited) experience, you tend to be hyper-focused on yourself when playing on stage, so it's difficult to walk away from a show with an accurate understanding of how 'good' or 'bad' the band was as a whole. A generous audience clapping and cheering the whole time, while an awesome feeling, only makes it more difficult to discern how good things actually sound.
I've played gigs where I walked off stage unsure if I should even continue playing only to have dozens of people walk up to me and sing my praises. I've also played shows where I was absolutely untouchable and on-fire, but the only person who seemed to notice was, well, me.
For all of the reasons stated above, I'm a huge fan of taping/filming shows. That said, I've sat around with my band and reviewed shows and everyone tends to focus in on their performance—unless there's a super glaring clam, no one notices another person's playing more than the player in question—except for the vocals!
I suspect that JP and the rest of the band are VERY aware of James' struggles, and there is probably a ton of sympathy for him. I mean, a band-member is a co-worker, a brother, and a musical partner in crime. You spend thirty years with a guy, I'd have to think that your heart goes out to him when he's struggling.
There's two schools of thought when it comes to something like this: look to make a move, or look to make it work. The spirit of this thread is with making it work, which very much aligns with my personal management ethos.
This sums it up quite nicely.
We know for a fact that they record every single show they do and have been revisiting some for the LNFA releases, so at least someone is going through the material and choosing/tweaking some of it to best represent these shows and tours, but that's most likely Jimmy T and not one of the band members themselves. Didn't JP say during his interview with Rick Beato that he has no vocals at all for his in-ear mix at live shows?
I keep saying it but I'd rather they play songs like TDEN or Rite of Passage where the vocals aren't challenging and James should be comfortable singing. I'd rather a set filled with odd choices or less favourited choices and not listen to him sing like this.
That's my take as well if they wish to stick with the current lineup, just build a setlist around his strengths, add a couple instrumentals, and make sure everything goes as smooth as possible. No need to play the vocally demanding classic songs for the billionth time anymore.
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There's two schools of thought when it comes to something like this: look to make a move, or look to make it work. The spirit of this thread is with making it work, which very much aligns with my personal management ethos.
Thank you.
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All's I know is I saw them once on this tour (2nd show of the tour I believe) and I stated on here after James was so so - as he was far from his best. I also saw them twice in 2019 on the DOT tour, and I thought James was excellent both times! I listen to this Live in Berlin show (from the DOT tour) and he sounds awesome. So I'm surmising something happened during the Covid off time - maybe he didn't practice or keep his voice in shape, or something to that effect that has seriously hurt his ability to perform live now. That's what I believe we're seeing.
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Its amazing how a veteran like Michael Sweet has actually gotten stronger over the years. Seen him live solo as well as with Stryper multiple times and he is effortless in all of his vocal registers. Maybe James needs to hit him up for some vocal exercises.
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He's voice is cooked mate.
The thing is, I don't really accept that. We know he can sing. I just don't understand why he can't perform.
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I keep saying it but I'd rather they play songs like TDEN or Rite of Passage where the vocals aren't challenging and James should be comfortable singing. I'd rather a set filled with odd choices or less favourited choices and not listen to him sing like this.[/quote
I think this is the play. Be very careful with choosing sets that aren’t as vocally demanding, and maybe throw an instrumental or two(or three) to give James as much support as he needs. There’s a lot of songs in their catalogue they can pull from that aren’t super demanding from a vocal perspective - now it might not be a set full of fan favorites, but the end result would be a show that is easier for James to perform.
The one bit of feedback the band could give James is about how he over sings some of the songs. There are times he changes difficult vocal melodies to make them easier to sing(which is completely fine), but there are other times he changes easy vocal melodies and makes them more difficult by pushing out higher notes or holding out notes for much longer than they need to be. The easy vocal passages should be a nice break and allow him to rest his voice for the harder passages. If it was 2011 when his voice was really sharp and he was pushing out these screams, then it would be different - but there is no reason to make the songs any harder to sing than they already are.
I think the vast majority of fans are rooting for the guy and want to see him succeed, but I wonder if sometimes they think the feedback comes across as malicious criticism(and I am aware there are some awful people on the internet that are incredibly rude when it comes to these kind of things).
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If he doesn’t improve, he should make the sacrifice play for the good of the band.
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He's voice is cooked mate.
The thing is, I don't really accept that. We know he can sing. I just don't understand why he can't perform.
Fair call. Yeah, I mean listening to Berlin in 2019, there is a massive drop off in such a short period of time.
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He's voice is cooked mate.
The thing is, I don't really accept that. We know he can sing. I just don't understand why he can't perform.
Fair call. Yeah, I mean listening to Berlin in 2019, there is a massive drop off in such a short period of time.
That's what I'm saying. I saw him twice in 2019 and he was excellent! What happened?
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He's voice is cooked mate.
The thing is, I don't really accept that. We know he can sing. I just don't understand why he can't perform.
Fair call. Yeah, I mean listening to Berlin in 2019, there is a massive drop off in such a short period of time.
That's what I'm saying. I saw him twice in 2019 and he was excellent! What happened?
He did bugger all singing live during those 3 years too. It's a fair point actually lads.
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a lot CAN happen in 2 years, though I doubt he was a much different performer in 2019 vs. today.
Ultimately I don't think this is a preparedness issue or a down tuning issue, because this has been status quo for well over 15 years. This is just what we are going to get now for the rest of the band's life. Maybe song selection could help. They could throw in a few slow moving ballads and cut the duration of the show -- throw in 1 or 2 instrumentals extra. I would be happy with that...just minimize the amount of work he has to do in one night to ease the fatigue.
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I'm sure there's plenty of songs where the vocals are in a limited range to make it more comfortable. TDEN, AROP, Outcry maybe, As I Am, all decent songs. And yeah, throw in TDOE and maybe even SOC or a likewise instrumental, plus a Far From Heaven or something and things instantly start to look a lot better for James.
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I'm all for adding Outcry to the set!!
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I'm all for adding Outcry to the set!!
From memory it just seems pretty simple vocal wise. Would be much better than BITS also IMO.
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Disappear!
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Disappear!
Yeah solid. They could make a really obscure yet satisfying set with James not needing to break much of a sweat.
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Plus, from the bands perspective, I'd much rather have fans complain about the set list over the lead singers vocal abilities.
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Disappear!
Yeah solid. They could make a really obscure yet satisfying set with James not needing to break much of a sweat.
You want James to Disappear? I can't see the band doing another album with him if his live performance is horrendous.
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This an example setlist I kind of thought through that should be manageable for James based on the songs vocal difficulty and how James has performed them in the past. ITPOE pt 1/ANTR/TCOT are other good choices but they’ve been played recently so I’m not sure they’d want to pull them out again.
On the Backs of Angels
Panic Attack
Room 137
Stream of Consciousness/The Dance of Eternity
Solitary Shell/When Your Times Has Come
The Dark Eternal Night/Awaken the Master
A Rite of Passage/Constant Motion
Hollow Years/The Answer Lies Within
Outcry/Lost Not Forgotten
Along for the Ride/Chosen
Erotomania/Hells Kitchen/Enigma Machine/Ytse Jam
The Silent Man
Invisible Monster/Peruvian Skies
Wait For Sleep
Breaking All Illusions
—————-encore
As I Am/The Looking Glass
Pale Blue Dot
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Disappear!
Yeah solid. They could make a really obscure yet satisfying set with James not needing to break much of a sweat.
You want James to Disappear? I can't see the band doing another album with him if his live performance is horrendous.
Wait, please explain? You think they will ditch him after the tour or something?
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I'm all for adding Outcry to the set!!
Same
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Disappear!
Yeah solid. They could make a really obscure yet satisfying set with James not needing to break much of a sweat.
You want James to Disappear? I can't see the band doing another album with him if his live performance is horrendous.
Wait, please explain? You think they will ditch him after the tour or something?
If James is sounding like ass on this tour why would DT do another album with him to tour with him again? I just can't see them being ok with continuing with a vocalist who can't perform anymore, but if they're selling tickets regardless maybe they don't care, who knows.
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If James is sounding like ass on this tour why would DT do another album with him to tour with him again? I just can't see them being ok with continuing with a vocalist who can't perform anymore, but if they're selling tickets regardless maybe they don't care, who knows.
JLB has been in the band now, though, for over 30 years, and I suspect they feel bad for his struggles, not to mention there has to be a kinship, a sense of loyalty, when it comes to the relationship between him and the other band members. Not that you said this, but they don't strike me as a "Oh, he can't do it anymore, let's fire him" type of band.
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Yep. I think JP is so loyal and genuinely human that he would pull the plug before ousting JLB.
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https://youtu.be/0s1ojki6JBA
This video shows JP would never fire him. Check towards the end with the question about superpowers.
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I'm not even sure which thread to put this..
I was watching the Amsterdam show tonight..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpsiXS_iUG8
It's brilliantly shot. Very steady and the sound is amazing.
So I want to highlight that but....
It's a brutal show for James.
This is actually the show I went to :lol
Did you catch the two or three times James entered like half a bar or an entire section too early? This completely baffled me. It's one thing to sing in or out of tune, but to actually sing entire phrases off beat or in the wrong part of the song.. how does that even happen?
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I definitely would not consider James LaBrie to be a very technical singer.
He would not have been able to give us the music we know and love all this time if he were not.
... what the hell? That doesn't even make sense.
As one who comes from a classical background, his level of proficiency for someone outside the classical genre is what initially impressed me about him. I knew this was a well-trained singer who took his art very seriously. And as DT is a band that is levels above all others, this aspect was a perfect fit.
Well, I frankly doubt that he 'takes his art seriously' or else he would make sure whatever he's singing would be more fitting with the state of his voice at the moment. If he does indeed take it seriously, he would not like the way he sounds at the moment, because he simply can't deliver night after night. He needs to do something (change vocal lines, choose different songs, something else entirely), because at the moment it's easy to not take him seriously.
And let me clarify that I'm not here just to 'bash on' James LaBrie. Like many others, his voice is one of the reasons I initially fell in love with Dream Theater's music.
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Disappear!
Yeah solid. They could make a really obscure yet satisfying set with James not needing to break much of a sweat.
You want James to Disappear? I can't see the band doing another album with him if his live performance is horrendous.
Wait, please explain? You think they will ditch him after the tour or something?
If James is sounding like ass on this tour why would DT do another album with him to tour with him again? I just can't see them being ok with continuing with a vocalist who can't perform anymore, but if they're selling tickets regardless maybe they don't care, who knows.
I am not saying it is as simple as this, but a few things to consider. This is not a new guy who has bombed the first week on the job. JLB has been with the band for what...30 years now? He has personal relationships with the band members and their families. It's not only a business relationship - a matter of selling tickets - but a personal one too. I do not think the core song song writers -- JP and JR -- are going to do anything to rock the ship. Most of the fan base is just happy to go see DT live and if that is the case, why create a personal and professional disaster? There is no chance JLB gets fired or quits regardless of performance at this point. Not saying I am happy about that, but we have probably 3-5 more albums left. Just let it roll a little longer. No waves.
Edit: as I have said before...it's been way worse than this and nothing happened.
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He's been worse than he currently is now?
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He's been worse than he currently is now?
I think most fans would agree that he has been in the worst vocal shape ever in the last couple of years. But he did have periods of return to form - after the drop in the late 90's, he found his footing again in 2000's and kept getting better all the way till about 2013-2014 (No doubnt that Live at Lunapark or Breaking the Fourth Wall are to some extent overdubbed but the bootlegs show he was in great form nevertheless. After that, it went downhill again.
Unlike crystalstars17, I believe it really might have been just the wear and tear catching up with him finally, not bad technical habits formed because of playing multiple characters in The Astonishing. The thing about all these (mainly opera) singers who keep their voices into their 60's or 70's is that they usually don't sing all that much and all that often - they might vocalize every day but there is a difference between that and a real performance. DT touring schedule, extremely demanding vocal lines and length of sets would destroy any singer sooner or later.
Not saying that JLB didn't have some bad habits - but overall, he was always a singer with good fundamentals. It just seems to me that a lot of his critics who compare him unfavorably to other great singers forget that while he declined more than a norm, he has possibly had to do a lot more than any other singer.
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It's fun to speculate. But there is just no way anybody in the band is getting replaced at this point - unless they voluntarily leave. They are nearly 40 years into their career, getting a new singer will do them no good at all. Fans know what to expect when they go to a DT show or buy an album.
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https://youtu.be/0s1ojki6JBA
This video shows JP would never fire him. Check towards the end with the question about superpowers.
That was really cool Wolfking. If JP was just saying that to be nice he did a good acting job. :)
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I'm not even sure which thread to put this..
I was watching the Amsterdam show tonight..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpsiXS_iUG8
It's brilliantly shot. Very steady and the sound is amazing.
So I want to highlight that but....
It's a brutal show for James.
Now I'm going to try and say this as...uninsulting as I can BUT.....
What is going on? This has not been a great tour for him.
Maybe he was sick. OK..But then hes been sick a lot.
I feel like this is simply not being prepared. I know the voice is an instrument and yadayadayada. But supposedly James is a PROFESSIONAL VOCALIST. Why can't he simply find a pocket to operate within? Does he not practice? It shouldn't be a crapshoot if the singer can sing when you buy a ticket to a concert. It's like he has NO strength. ZERO control.
I mean, Alice Cooper has a pocket and he still sounds pretty strong at 70something. Granted he's not singing the range needed for Dream Theater, but still. Professional. And does a hell of a lot more touring than DT does.
I don't know. It's just disappointing. I love James, and DT's music wouldn't be the same without him. But I have to ask...why is he where he is and is he really doing enough to master his craft? Some of the parts literally sounds like karaoke.
The show is shot fine, but the audio quality is terrible. How can you really evaluate James properly with this compression and the awful EQ on top of that?
As humans, we will ALWAYS cringe at vocals sounding off. Because they're part of our nature, it's the first thing we notice when it doesn't sound "right". That said, despite the audio quality, I don't think James sounds bad at all.
But, let's take a look at the comments.
Oh No No
3 months ago
I was there in front of Petrucci with my dad! This was one of the best concerts i’ve ever been to, amazing
DRG
4 months ago (edited)
First of all I just wanna say I was there and I enjoyed the whole show, DT is my life's band! Came from Spain just to watch the concert.
This said, I just wanna point out that JL entered too early two times... first at Bridges in the Sky (47:33) and then with The Count of Tuscany at (1:46:15). First time wasn't that serious and u could miss it, but the second time was pretty easy to notice if you knew the song. Anyway, great show, great people, love being in Netherland. Long life to DT!
Eraesr
4 months ago
I was there. Amazing show. The Petrucci/Rudess intermezzo in Count of Tuscany was magical.
Devin Townsend as support act was a phenomenal thing to happen as well, although I did get the idea that half the crowd had no idea who Devin Townsend is or had any idea of his sheer musical genius.
Eli Van wetten
4 months ago
I was there front row.
Devin Townsend was amazing.
He is probably my number one artist.
The thing that amazed me most was how good James LaBrie sounded.
I was at AFAS for the last tour in 2020 as well and he was not very good.
I don’t hate the sound of his voice but he did have trouble hitting the correct pitch and being somewhat understandable.
But he was very good here. Came in a bit too early a few times and messed up some lyrics, I love it.
They are still human and he did it like a champ
These were the first 4 I found - all of them saying it was a great show and that James sounded great, even if some were honest about mistakes. So when watching these cellphone videos I think we have to admit that if you weren't there, you're not getting the full picture.
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It's fun to speculate. But there is just no way anybody in the band is getting replaced at this point - unless they voluntarily leave. They are nearly 40 years into their career, getting a new singer will do them no good at all. Fans know what to expect when they go to a DT show or buy an album.
Never say never. It's easy to swear loyalty to each other until the end when things are good. But say that tomorrow Jordan Rudess feel suddenly old and tired and quits, or John Myung decides he wants to do something more with his life and retires.... is John Petrucci really willing to lay Dream Theater to rest?
At a certain point it's no longer just a carreer and a way to bring money to your family, it's a passion, it's a way of life. It's hard to let that go. So I'm sure the five of them are planning to last until the end, but I would not be 100% sure that, faced with the reality that Rudess, Myung or LaBrie are leaving for whatever reason, Petrucci's reaction would be "ah well, that's it I guess. I'll continue doing solo albums and G3".
If people who lose their husband or wife can eventually fall in love again and find a new partner, I guess Petrucci can as well find a new bassist or keyboard player rather than laying Dream Theater to rest forever if "tomorrow" one of them quits.
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My guess is that if anyone voluntarily leaves, it'll be MM. JR could choose to retire, sure. But I feel MM will be leaving on his own accord. Not based on anything except my own speculation after seeing how MP has mended fences with folks.
If I'm MM (again, this is me), I'd be...feeling odd that MP is back tight with everyone, and I'd certainly bring it up at a band meeting. It might even convince me to think about doing other things (I am sure MM could do anything he wanted to, given his stature). Because no matter how many records and years that MM has with DT, MP will always be the drummer of Dream Theater. And I am sure MM knew that going in, and still knows that now.
Again, purely my own speculation based on nothing by observing. I don't know anyone in the band, nor do I know anyone who would have any impact on their internal decision making/discussions as to the band's structure.
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My guess is that if anyone voluntarily leaves, it'll be MM. JR could choose to retire, sure. But I feel MM will be leaving on his own accord. Not based on anything except my own speculation after seeing how MP has mended fences with folks.
If I'm MM (again, this is me), I'd be...feeling odd that MP is back tight with everyone, and I'd certainly bring it up at a band meeting. It might even convince me to think about doing other things (I am sure MM could do anything he wanted to, given his stature). Because no matter how many records and years that MM has with DT, MP will always be the drummer of Dream Theater. And I am sure MM knew that going in, and still knows that now.
Again, purely my own speculation based on nothing by observing. I don't know anyone in the band, nor do I know anyone who would have any impact on their internal decision making/discussions as to the band's structure.
Interesting though. If MM ever left or whatever, would MP come back with how JLB is currently performing? I reckon he'd be the one to come back in, force setlist changes, make James change melodies and basically be up front with the issue head on. As much of a control freak MP was, it wouldn't be a bad thing IMO.
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Interesting though. If MM ever left or whatever, would MP come back with how JLB is currently performing? I reckon he'd be the one to come back in, force setlist changes, make James change melodies and basically be up front with the issue head on. As much of a control freak MP was, it wouldn't be a bad thing IMO.
I think that could be one hair in the soup. Even though JLB and Portnoy called a truce and hugged it out (metaphorically, or maybe even actually), I doubt James wants to go back to having Portnoy boss him around again when it comes to singing.
The other hair is Petrucci, who seems to really like being the main man in charge, and I doubt he wants to go back to having a co-leader, especially one as strong-willed and outspoken as Portnoy.
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Interesting though. If MM ever left or whatever, would MP come back with how JLB is currently performing? I reckon he'd be the one to come back in, force setlist changes, make James change melodies and basically be up front with the issue head on. As much of a control freak MP was, it wouldn't be a bad thing IMO.
I think that could be one hair in the soup. Even though JLB and Portnoy called a truce and hugged it out (metaphorically, or maybe even actually), I doubt James wants to go back to having Portnoy boss him around again when it comes to singing.
The other hair is Petrucci, who seems to really like being the main man in charge, and I doubt he wants to go back to having a co-leader, especially one as strong-willed and outspoken as Portnoy.
All most likely the case. I think JP could still benefit from MP's more in your face approach sometimes though.
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If I was JLB looking back at this tour I would feel its time to hang it up. He had a great run for sure but compromising the integrity of the band is not ok. Its not a matter of loyalty in this case so please stop with that. He's shot, why in the fuck should they even let it continue, Its embarrassing. He can't do it anymore so where's his dignity? Its borderline selfish to let it go on.
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If I was JLB looking back at this tour I would feel its time to hang it up. He had a great run for sure but compromising the integrity of the band is not ok. Its not a matter of loyalty in this case so please stop with that. He's shot, why in the fuck should they even let it continue, Its embarrassing. He can't do it anymore so where's his dignity? Its borderline selfish to let it go on.
What show did you go to?
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If I was JLB looking back at this tour I would feel its time to hang it up. He had a great run for sure but compromising the integrity of the band is not ok. Its not a matter of loyalty in this case so please stop with that. He's shot, why in the fuck should they even let it continue, Its embarrassing. He can't do it anymore so where's his dignity? Its borderline selfish to let it go on.
What show did you go to?
None but the videos I have seen are sad. I was sick for the show I had tickets to in NYC. I'm not bashing James man, if Myung couldn't play Bass anymore should they retire or replace him?
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If I was JLB looking back at this tour I would feel its time to hang it up. He had a great run for sure but compromising the integrity of the band is not ok. Its not a matter of loyalty in this case so please stop with that. He's shot, why in the fuck should they even let it continue, Its embarrassing. He can't do it anymore so where's his dignity? Its borderline selfish to let it go on.
What show did you go to?
None but the videos I have seen are sad. I was sick for the show I had tickets to in NYC. I'm not bashing James man, if Myung couldn't play Bass anymore should they retire or replace him?
I saw the show 3 times. The first was in the first week of the tour. The entire band had a few moments that needed cleaning up. I saw them one week later, and it was great! My son can be critical of JLB, and had no criticisms. Then the last show was at the end of the US tour. Again, I had no issue with James at all. Hes not exactly the same as 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, but he is enjoyable.
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Listening to the Amsterdam concert... Does Rob Halford get this kind of harsh reception from the fanbase? I honestly don't know, it's just that personally I've been put off by how he sings sometimes (but would never even think of him leaving Judas Priest) and LaBrie's performance here just doesn't tick me off. I'm not saying it's perfect, but he's so often sounding like he's having fun and, well, performing, I can't bring myself to see his performance as problematic. That's what I meant by "delivering", it's not like I'm some oblivious fanboy that ignores that he struggles on occasion. Personally, the joy in his performance just beats out the "inaccuracies".
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I can understand both Rguments with that middle section. When I first heard the song, I was like WTF? and thought they had ruined a heavy ass song but as I said before, I like it now.
I will say, the ending section from James is one of the greatest moments ever for me in music. Not many sections give me chills like that section does everytime.
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If I was JLB looking back at this tour I would feel its time to hang it up. He had a great run for sure but compromising the integrity of the band is not ok. Its not a matter of loyalty in this case so please stop with that. He's shot, why in the fuck should they even let it continue, Its embarrassing. He can't do it anymore so where's his dignity? Its borderline selfish to let it go on.
What show did you go to?
None but the videos I have seen are sad. I was sick for the show I had tickets to in NYC. I'm not bashing James man, if Myung couldn't play Bass anymore should they retire or replace him?
Are you sure? You are clearly bashing James.
You can't take examples from some of the shows or parts of the tour to make such conclusions about James or any other player. He even had worse period vocally back in the days. But he countinues and give great run after. I'm one to admit that he is inconsistent, especially after TA tour but saying that he is selfish or questioning one's dignity? And you can't compare a guitar/bass player to voice since voice is an organic instrument and can easliy change day to day or effected so easliy for worse.
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If I was JLB looking back at this tour I would feel its time to hang it up. He had a great run for sure but compromising the integrity of the band is not ok. Its not a matter of loyalty in this case so please stop with that. He's shot, why in the fuck should they even let it continue, Its embarrassing. He can't do it anymore so where's his dignity? Its borderline selfish to let it go on.
What show did you go to?
None but the videos I have seen are sad. I was sick for the show I had tickets to in NYC. I'm not bashing James man, if Myung couldn't play Bass anymore should they retire or replace him?
Maybe you're not "bashing him", but your saying he doesn't deserve to do his job which provides him his livelihood anymore, based on a few cellphone clips you saw.
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A cellphone clip is more likely to be a realistic portrayal of a live performance rather than a professional one, the latter of which tends to be "doctored" and fixed up nicely to make the singer and/or band sound as good as possible. A cellphone clip, albeit raw in sound quality, is how one hears it at the concert.
I am not necessarily agreeing with Glasser that James should hang it up, but his reaction to the many clips online from this year's shows is more than fair.
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I'll bet this opinion is going to float like a brick...
Personally, I think AVFTTOTW is a fitting album to end Dream Theater with. At their age and level of success, I'd totally respect full on, peaceful, retirement. It's very difficult these days to make a living just being a recording artist, and the road can't be a lot of fun.
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A cellphone clip is more likely to be a realistic portrayal of a live performance rather than a professional one, the latter of which tends to be "doctored" and fixed up nicely to make the singer and/or band sound as good as possible. A cellphone clip, albeit raw in sound quality, is how one hears it at the concert.
Have you ever listened to a cellphone mic recording and thought, "good god, that's how I sound?"
Cellphone mics are getting better all the time, but they are still not going to capture how that audio really sounded in the theater. Not even close.
For one, there's heavy compression going on. Secondly, there's no EQ or clarity to the recording. You've got an algorithm taking that blaring loud volume, squashing it, and then making some very crude EQ adjustments based on what it thinks will sound good coming out of that tiny speaker.
A non-overdubbed soundboard recording is much better to inform you of the quality of the performance, but even then further doctoring "needs" to happen to help emulate how that show sounded in the theater. This, a lot of times, will involved compression, reverb, EQ, etc., all to take that raw audio and reproduce the effect of it being played in a large auditorium.
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No one's answered the question yet, if Myung couldn't play bass anymore would they retire him or just quit as a band?
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No one's answered the question yet, if Myung couldn't play bass anymore would they retire him or just quit as a band?
Why can't he play bass? is an equally relevant question.
Tragic car accident? They might retire.
Tendonitis? I suspect they would stand by him and honor his wishes
That all said, I personally do not equate JM to JLB. You are welcome to disagree, but from my perspective as a fan and musician, singers are just, well, different.
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No one's answered the question yet, if Myung couldn't play bass anymore would they retire him or just quit as a band?
Why can't he play bass? is an equally relevant question.
Tragic car accident? They might retire.
Tendonitis? I suspect they would stand by him and honor his wishes
That all said, I personally do not equate JM to JLB. You are welcome to disagree, but from my perspective as a fan and musician, singers are just, well, different.
Its not a matter of different. I understand exactly what you mean as far as the vocal chords getting worn down with age. I'm looking at this as purely can you perform your instrument this late in the game to continue. DT's tunes are extremely demanding and you can't just "Mick Jagger" your way through the songs if you get my point. If god forbid Myung couldn't play anymore for any reason do you really think he would expect the band to quit? I highly doubt it. JLB has had his vocal struggles on and off over the years and he does his best to maintain his instrument and I respect that but what I'm saying is not bashing him, I'm simply noticing a huge decline and being precise is a trademark of DT. If they chose to go bluesy and loosen it up a bit James can light a cigarette on stage and have a good ole time but its fucking DREAM THEATER!!!! These dudes take shit seriously and I bet the conversation of what should we all do next is happening at some point. Maybe they do shorter tours, who knows, but its getting to that point and if they choose to write songs to accommodate James' voice that's up to them but they would still be expected to perform the "classics" live.
**** If JP couldn't solo the same anymore due to tendonitis or whatever, would you all be ok with him " One String Kerry Kinging" his way through Under A Glass Moon? :lol
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I'll bet this opinion is going to float like a brick...
Personally, I think AVFTTOTW is a fitting album to end Dream Theater with. At their age and level of success, I'd totally respect full on, peaceful, retirement. It's very difficult these days to make a living just being a recording artist, and the road can't be a lot of fun.
As much as I would love for them to continue making music forever, I agree with this.
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I agree with Skeever's point on cell phone recordings, and disagree that James should quit or be forced out. He can still sing. He sounds great on the latest album. I read lots of posts about how great he sounded at Rock in Rio from people who were there in person, whereas people here, only seeing it on youtube, think it was awful. Friends who saw him DT in February/March thought he was great. Who's right? Maybe both, or neither. But what experience is more important? Imo, it's the experience of the people who were actually there. And if most of them are happy with it, and everyone is happy with the albums (that we'll have forever), that's what matters.
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I agree with Skeever's point on cell phone recordings, and disagree that James should quit or be forced out. He can still sing. He sounds great on the latest album. I read lots of posts about how great he sounded at Rock in Rio from people who were there in person, whereas people here, only seeing it on youtube, think it was awful. Friends who saw him DT in February/March thought he was great. Who's right? Maybe both, or neither. But what experience is more important? Imo, it's the experience of the people who were actually there. And if most of them are happy with it, and everyone is happy with the albums (that we'll have forever), that's what matters.
You never see people comment "Wow, Myung's tone sounds thin and flat" or "JP's new Majesty guitar must suck because that sounds nothing like the album" live, but you always see it with regard to James' vocals. Why? Because the human mind knows nothing better than how a voice should sound, and naturally picks up the "unnatural" sound of the voice on the poorly compressed and EQ'd cellphone recording. But it makes excuses for everything else. Not saying James is perfect, but all that exasperates the human mind's tendency to fixate on his errors.
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JLB sounded fine for me when I saw the first and last shows of the US leg this tour. My problem was the backing vocals overpowering his live vocals. Backing vocals should be there to compliment the lead vocals, not overpower them. If the backing vocals were a bit lower in the mix, and JLBs live vocals were heard more, even if he wasn't singing the lead in the vocal harmony, we would still be able to hear his live voice and appreciate him still being able to sing well.
I've said it before with Distant Memories that I don't enjoy every change he makes during his love shows, such as not prolonging the Beyond This Life "Our deeds have traveled Far", but then he sounded better at the shows I went to than he did on Distant Memories show.
From my observation, I don't think any one of them is planning on hanging it up anytime soon. Mangini is living it up with being a full-time member in a band that he's allowed to try things with, why would he leave.
Also, it's been a few years since they toured this much and for a band with such complex vocal melodies and parts, it's going to take JLB's vocals to get used to this much work. Maybe that's a reason why they had the backing vocals so high in the mix this tour, so JLB won't over do it if his vocals have to get used to being worked so much again.
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I agree with Skeever's point on cell phone recordings, and disagree that James should quit or be forced out. He can still sing. He sounds great on the latest album. I read lots of posts about how great he sounded at Rock in Rio from people who were there in person, whereas people here, only seeing it on youtube, think it was awful. Friends who saw him DT in February/March thought he was great. Who's right? Maybe both, or neither. But what experience is more important? Imo, it's the experience of the people who were actually there. And if most of them are happy with it, and everyone is happy with the albums (that we'll have forever), that's what matters.
You never see people comment "Wow, Myung's tone sounds thin and flat" or "JP's new Majesty guitar must suck because that sounds nothing like the album" live, but you always see it with regard to James' vocals. Why? Because the human mind knows nothing better than how a voice should sound, and naturally picks up the "unnatural" sound of the voice on the poorly compressed and EQ'd cellphone recording. But it makes excuses for everything else. Not saying James is perfect, but all that exasperates the human mind's tendency to fixate on his errors.
I know it's nitpicking, but to be fair, JP has had a lot of criticism when he switched over from Ibanez to MusicMan.
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A cellphone clip is more likely to be a realistic portrayal of a live performance rather than a professional one, the latter of which tends to be "doctored" and fixed up nicely to make the singer and/or band sound as good as possible. A cellphone clip, albeit raw in sound quality, is how one hears it at the concert.
Have you ever listened to a cellphone mic recording and thought, "good god, that's how I sound?"
Absolutely! And it's a shock, but it's reality. Just because I hear myself differently doesn't mean that's what reality is.
The same is true regarding audience recordings of concerts. Yeah it's not going to reflect everything perfectly from the standpoint of being there and feeling the excitement and the super loud volume reverberating through the venue and your body, but that doesn't mean that the recordings don't accurately reflect what James' performance was like. If he hit a sour note, a crummy cellphone recording is not going to magnify that any more than a professional multi-track recording. So like it or not, audience recordings are a very good indicator of what his (and the band's) performance was. If someone remembers it differently, it's because they were caught up in the heat of the moment and blasted at a high volume that probably made it difficult if not impossible to decipher the details as well as you can after the fact, just in the same way athletes, coaches and sports commentators can make insightful comments about certain plays or games after the fact when watching replays.
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No one with integrity, especially someone like JM, would expect the band to retire if he couldn’t go on.
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A cellphone clip is more likely to be a realistic portrayal of a live performance rather than a professional one, the latter of which tends to be "doctored" and fixed up nicely to make the singer and/or band sound as good as possible. A cellphone clip, albeit raw in sound quality, is how one hears it at the concert.
Have you ever listened to a cellphone mic recording and thought, "good god, that's how I sound?"
Absolutely! And it's a shock, but it's reality. Just because I hear myself differently doesn't mean that's what reality is.
The same is true regarding audience recordings of concerts. Yeah it's not going to reflect everything perfectly from the standpoint of being there and feeling the excitement and the super loud volume reverberating through the venue and your body, but that doesn't mean that the recordings don't accurately reflect what James' performance was like. If he hit a sour note, a crummy cellphone recording is not going to magnify that any more than a professional multi-track recording. So like it or not, audience recordings are a very good indicator of what his (and the band's) performance was. If someone remembers it differently, it's because they were caught up in the heat of the moment and blasted at a high volume that probably made it difficult if not impossible to decipher the details as well as you can after the fact, just in the same way athletes, coaches and sports commentators can make insightful comments about certain plays or games after the fact when watching replays.
Eh, but it's NOT reality, any more than those "doctored" recordings are.
On a cellphone recording, you already have "doctoring" going on, in the form of the choices the software is making to make the product listenable. This involves heavy amounts of limiting and compression, as well as EQ.
With a well mixed soundboard or room recording, you have, theoretically, a skilled human audio engineer attempting to put you back in that place, using the same types of effects to emulate how the voice and other instruments sounded in those spaces, in that moment. Unless there is some kind of overdubbing, all of this amounts to simply a much more human (and much "better") digital recreation of that "reality" than the raw cellphone.
Sure... a cellphone can tell you "did James hit the note? Was he sharp or flat?" but that's seldom all we're looking for in a performance. There's definitely legitimacy to that. But, that's not all we're looking for. In many instances a flat vocal can even sound good and a "perfect" one can sound uncanny. Coltrane's intonation sucked. Etc. People don't comment on which notes James hit, which were flat, which were right on, etc... people comment on how he sounded. And that is a very different thing that you can often not tell from a cellphone video.
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Sure... a cellphone can tell you "did James hit the note? Was he sharp or flat?" but that's seldom all we're looking for in a performance.
"Hit the notes" and the majority of the noise goes away.
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Not trying to keep beating this horse, but just to give some perspective: I don't work in the music business or anything like that, but part of my job involves working closely with a music producer and audio engineer, I'm also a musician (not professional). Can't tell you how many times, I lost count, I would be present as a listener when a recording is going or during a live show and the vocals sounded quite nice in the moment, great atmosphere, great time, you name it. Then, when it comes time to properly mix and work on it the vocals sound nothing like I remember (lots of flat notes, etc). There's just something that happens when you're listening to it in real time that somehow masks these imperfections, but that doesn't mean those aren't there. A recording, whether it's properly mic-ed or just a phone recording, will give you much more of a "this is how it actually sounded" perspective than just "I was there and had a great time".
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Not trying to keep beating this horse, but just to give some perspective: I don't work in the music business or anything like that, but part of my job involves working closely with a music producer and audio engineer, I'm also a musician (not professional). Can't tell you how many times, I lost count, I would be present as a listener when a recording is going or during a live show and the vocals sounded quite nice in the moment, great atmosphere, great time, you name it. Then, when it comes time to properly mix and work on it the vocals sound nothing like I remember (lots of flat notes, etc). There's just something that happens when you're listening to it in real time that somehow masks these imperfections, but that doesn't mean those aren't there. A recording, whether it's properly mic-ed or just a phone recording, will give you much more of a "this is how it actually sounded" perspective than just "I was there and had a great time".
Begs the question: should the band worry about meeting the expectations of the people who paid money to attend, or the people dissecting the cell-phone video months after the fact?
Yes, you can argue that the cell-phone video may compel someone to buy a ticket somewhere down the line, but the musician in me feels like the 'moment' is paramount. If I remember a show feeling great and the audience enjoyed it, I honestly don't care what the recordings tell me after the fact.
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I was there and had a great time is what's important in a live setting.
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Begs the question: should the band worry about meeting the expectations of the people who paid money to attend, or the people dissecting the cell-phone video months after the fact?
Yes, you can argue that the cell-phone video may compel someone to buy a ticket somewhere down the line, but the musician in me feels like the 'moment' is paramount. If I remember a show feeling great and the audience enjoyed it, I honestly don't care what the recordings tell me after the fact.
And
I was there and had a great time is what's important in a live setting.
Are more or less what I was trying to say, but not as well. I was there and had a great time (and thoroughly enjoyed James LaBrie's performance) at all of the many DT shows I've been to.
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The interview with JLB and JP linked here - about why JP would never replace James - made me wonder: do you know any band that would do just that? I mean, replacing their singer just because he got older, his voice rougher and live performances less consistent. I can't think of any - but I am not the most knowledgeable rock band trivia guy around.
On the other hand, I can readily think of a few bands whose singers were fired for being a pain in the ass (Queensryche, Yes....).
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The interview with JLB and JP linked here - about why JP would never replace James - made me wonder: do you know any band that would do just that? I mean, replacing their singer just because he got older, his voice rougher and live performances less consistent. I can't think of any - but I am not the most knowledgeable rock band trivia guy around.
On the other hand, I can readily think of a few bands whose singers were fired for being a pain in the ass (Queensryche, Yes....).
The closest I can think of is Kansas with Steve Walsh. But from what I read on wiki, he retired from the band.
The only way I can see Dream Theater continuing without JLB, is if JLB decides to retire and there is still a large enough interest in the band to want to perform, JP and the rest of the guys still could go on with a different vocalist. There is one singer I can think of that could possibly be good in Dream Theater, that is Mike Mills from Toehider.
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A cellphone clip is more likely to be a realistic portrayal of a live performance rather than a professional one, the latter of which tends to be "doctored" and fixed up nicely to make the singer and/or band sound as good as possible. A cellphone clip, albeit raw in sound quality, is how one hears it at the concert.
Have you ever listened to a cellphone mic recording and thought, "good god, that's how I sound?"
Absolutely! And it's a shock, but it's reality. Just because I hear myself differently doesn't mean that's what reality is.
The same is true regarding audience recordings of concerts. Yeah it's not going to reflect everything perfectly from the standpoint of being there and feeling the excitement and the super loud volume reverberating through the venue and your body, but that doesn't mean that the recordings don't accurately reflect what James' performance was like. If he hit a sour note, a crummy cellphone recording is not going to magnify that any more than a professional multi-track recording. So like it or not, audience recordings are a very good indicator of what his (and the band's) performance was. If someone remembers it differently, it's because they were caught up in the heat of the moment and blasted at a high volume that probably made it difficult if not impossible to decipher the details as well as you can after the fact, just in the same way athletes, coaches and sports commentators can make insightful comments about certain plays or games after the fact when watching replays.
Not trying to keep beating this horse, but just to give some perspective: I don't work in the music business or anything like that, but part of my job involves working closely with a music producer and audio engineer, I'm also a musician (not professional). Can't tell you how many times, I lost count, I would be present as a listener when a recording is going or during a live show and the vocals sounded quite nice in the moment, great atmosphere, great time, you name it. Then, when it comes time to properly mix and work on it the vocals sound nothing like I remember (lots of flat notes, etc). There's just something that happens when you're listening to it in real time that somehow masks these imperfections, but that doesn't mean those aren't there. A recording, whether it's properly mic-ed or just a phone recording, will give you much more of a "this is how it actually sounded" perspective than just "I was there and had a great time".
I have to agree with Setlist Scotty & Gzarruk. I've watched/listened to many of those YouTube recordings which were non-professional & professionally recorded where LaBrie just did not sound good. I've only seen the band twice and LaBrie sounded good but I find it hard to believe that I just happened to catch two of his better performances.
Back to the original topic, I think the band should both downtune & modify the melodies if they want to keep doing those older songs. Or don't because LaBrie will probably sound good if you're there in the moment :biggrin:
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Fuck James and his whiney ass voice. He blows, fire him now.
..... Just kidding! :biggrin:
Still really loving his performance on View.
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I kinda liked when they tuned I&W down a half-step, it gave the songs a different flavour/energy.
Anyway, I'm surprised they haven't done it again, Metallica did it in the 90's and never looked back.
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I kinda liked when they tuned I&W down a half-step, it gave the songs a different flavour/energy.
Anyway, I'm surprised they haven't done it again, Metallica did it in the 90's and never looked back.
Yep, and James still sounds fantastic. Certainly helped his voice long term.
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My two cents on the Amsterdam Show vid:
- Honestly James doesn't sound that bad, and I think he sounds like he may have had some kind of vocal cord inflammation or fatigue that he's recovering from. He sounds struggling to keep the notes and his singing sounds softer and with a lot of breath, as if he fears to lose control of it if he did it with more force or a brighter tone. But he is on pitch, and reaches the notes just fine. He doesn't force it to reach notes he knows he won't pull off.
- The mixing (Or the way the show was recorded) doesn't help him. He sounds way back in the mix with even the backing vocals sounding louder, and that doesn't help the "breathy" way he's singing at all.
I don't think he's finished or on his way to retirement at all, and I hope he can get his cords a bit back on form in future tours. Maybe a bit of rest is what he needs (Constant singing in live shows 2-3 hours a day can destroy your vocal cords in ways you can't imagine, let alone shows where you have to sing Dream Theater songs :lol). And one thing I know-He knows the state of his voice right now and is trying to do the best with what he's got. You can't say that about other rock singers (I'm looking right at you, Axl)
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He rested for two years during Covid.
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He rested for two years during Covid.
I feel he rested too much and his voice is just getting used to singing this much again.
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He rested for two years during Covid.
I feel he rested too much and his voice is just getting used to singing this much again.
Is this an actual thing? How much does he need to 'get used' to it again?
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He rested for two years during Covid.
I feel he rested too much and his voice is just getting used to singing this much again.
Is this an actual thing? How much does he need to 'get used' to it again?
I don't know, I'm not JLB. I do not know how JLB's vocal conditions are and how things affect his vocals, many things can possibly have an effect on his vocals.
I agree with you though in that something needs to be addressed about his vocal consistency. Since, I am not as upset about the backing vocals being high in the mix, I am more astonished that he didn't sing a vocal section which I consider one of his best vocal moments. But also, many vocalists don't even sing some parts and have the audience sing instead. How would people feel if JLB did this more and let the audience sing some of the more difficult parts while he still sings the rest? I do have to give it up to JLB for singing as much as he does for so long.
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I feel like he always is better as time goes on, during a tour or even a show. Especially the shows. He sounds much better after a few songs. The last 2 tours I have seen shows at the beginning and end of the tours, and felt both times the latter was better.
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I feel like he always is better as time goes on, during a tour or even a show. Especially the shows. He sounds much better after a few songs. The last 2 tours I have seen shows at the beginning and end of the tours, and felt both times the latter was better.
Agree. During the distance over time tour he sounded much better during the scenes set than during the first set despite of being older songs.
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Interesting that some are even 'diagnosing' various health problems that they've made up out of thin air without any word from the man himself. Is it vocal chord inflammation, or just some random vocal chord injury? Since he has said nothing of the sort you should assume he is just fine physically and ageing like all of us are. Maybe the arm-chair doctors are finally waking up to what's been incredibly obvious to most who have been following the band. His live performances are very shaky very consistently. It's just becoming all but impossible to deny now and I guess some want to have hope it'll get better (i.e., when he heals from a made up injury he hasn't said he has).
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Hey, it's all speculation, man. We're no authority at all because we don't know James personally (Or are that close to him) nor do we know about how his voice was affected through and after the pandemic (Ben_Jamin post might be accurate as well, since he was fairly inactive during it and is getting used to touring), but as a Physician and a singing aficionado myself this is what people that usually have had some kind of vocal injury tend to present over time, so it's my guess.
Again- it's all speculation, and your opinion of his performance being inconsistent over the last years is also equally valid.
Either way the result is the same: If possible, we hope he gets back in form and recovers.
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Interesting that some are even 'diagnosing' various health problems that they've made up out of thin air without any word from the man himself. Is it vocal chord inflammation, or just some random vocal chord injury? Since he has said nothing of the sort you should assume he is just fine physically and ageing like all of us are. Maybe the arm-chair doctors are finally waking up to what's been incredibly obvious to most who have been following the band. His live performances are very shaky very consistently. It's just becoming all but impossible to deny now and I guess some want to have hope it'll get better (i.e., when he heals from a made up injury he hasn't said he has).
With all due respect to those here, this entire thread is pretty much just people shooting the shit, and talking out of their asses. People who haven't been to shows personally recently, diminish all the good things they see and want to diagnose the guy with a problem based on a few shitty cellphone videos. I'm sorry if I sound angry, I'm not "above it" and I've done it myself to some of my favorites, probably James himself as well at some point, but it's annoying. Go to a show, and complain then if it wasn't to your liking. But this whole thing where we're dissecting YouTube clips just isn't for me.
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This argument springs eternal. I was at a show, I paid close attention and I heard exactly what you can hear on the clips. I don't mean to be short with anyone, it could be that I have an exceptional ear, but I don't think that's likely. I managed to have a good time and listen closely at the same time, with my averagely tuned ears, and that's what I heard. If you look up clips for a variety of bands with more consistent singers at the moment, you'll find them sounding how you expect them to sound, even though they're cellphone clips. If cellphone clips are a big problem, go to the pro-shot show(s) of the tour or go to Dime and look up a really good audio bootleg. But I think *clips* are a good representation of reality in 2022. Really they were decent enough in quality in 2014 already, from a good phone, but back then we weren't talking about them so much because James was way more consistent and we didn't need to circle around the James haters by asking "well have YOU been to the show" so often. Now they're great quality and people upload from every show and you can hear a frankly excellent representation of how every show looked and sounded. My show was exactly what I expected from the clips I saw.
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With all due respect to those here, this entire thread is pretty much just people shooting the shit, and talking out of their asses.
Frankly, as the thread starter, that was NOT what was intended with the thread. The intent was to acknowledge that James is out there giving it his all, and what can be done to help him navigate singing a lot of the songs from the band's earlier material. It was meant to be a thread of positivity, while admitting that JLB's performances were, as they've always been, very inconsistent.
JLB's vocals are some of the most scrutinized in music. The guy goes out there and kills himself every night and gives us the best we can. My thought was...what do the musicians on the forum think can be done to help him out. As I was told, the tunes are already a half-step dropped (and some I hear easily, others I missed), and there's not much else the band can do except not to play those tracks.
What folks have done with this thread since then, is contrary to the reason it was started.
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JLB's vocals are some of the most scrutinized in music.
I would also challenge this argument. James just has a lot of haters because they're not blessed with the naturally elevated taste of us who appreciate his timbre :lol but aside from a few vocal ones, they're not the ones going through show videos. Us DT fans are, though. We're the ones scrutinizing him, because we see him do badly, and then we're the ones praising him when he does great. The general audience's opinion always stays the same at "don't like 'im", the same as it did for Geddy Lee or Andi Deris or other "acquired taste" vocalists in prog/metal.
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I was listening to one of the Official Bootlegs recently. I think it was the '98 show that Bruce Dickinson guested on. At the start of the show (first track was Lines in the Sand), James sounded really good. A few tracks in he hits the second verse of Take the Time and his voice cracks, and it seems to affect him for most of the rest of the show. I'm not sure if that was a physical, psychological, or both, but it suggests that avoiding TTT (or at least that verse) might be a good idea going forward.
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I'm not sure if that was a physical, psychological, or both, but it suggests that avoiding TTT (or at least that verse) might be a good idea going forward.
...which is why MP saw to it that it was skipped when they played the song in later tours while he was still in the band. Same with Voices.
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Shame though; Take the Time and Voices are two of their best tracks!
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I am just listening (so many times now) to Live in London. I don't understand all the discontent about his voice. He sounds great! I was there, and he sounded the same live as in the recording. This is actually my go to version of Scenes. :yarr
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I am just listening (so many times now) to Live in London. I don't understand all the discontent about his voice. He sounds great! I was there, and he sounded the same live as in the recording. This is actually my go to version of Scenes. :yarr
you don't get why anyone is discontent about his performances in general lately or just Live in London?
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I am just listening (so many times now) to Live in London. I don't understand all the discontent about his voice. He sounds great! I was there, and he sounded the same live as in the recording. This is actually my go to version of Scenes. :yarr
you don't get why anyone is discontent about his performances in general lately or just Live in London?
I meant in general. Live in London is recent. Its good. This tour he sounded the same. I saw it 3x. The youtube recordings just arent a good way to judge. And, I wonder if some of the negativity is that he doesnt have that...younger voice..tied to the 1st few albums that are the favorite of many. Hes not quite the same..aside from the injury, he's mature. Of the 10 shows I have seen in the last 6 years, there are a few moments of flat, but it is mostly great. No worse than Dickenson, Hetfield . I've heard both of them recently and their older voices are different. And there are some thinking he cant hack it live anymore? I just wholeheartily disagree.
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I am just listening (so many times now) to Live in London. I don't understand all the discontent about his voice. He sounds great! I was there, and he sounded the same live as in the recording. This is actually my go to version of Scenes. :yarr
you don't get why anyone is discontent about his performances in general lately or just Live in London?
I meant in general. Live in London is recent. Its good. This tour he sounded the same. I saw it 3x. The youtube recordings just arent a good way to judge. And, I wonder if some of the negativity is that he doesnt have that...younger voice..tied to the 1st few albums that are the favorite of many. Hes not quite the same..aside from the injury, he's mature. Of the 10 shows I have seen in the last 6 years, there are a few moments of flat, but it is mostly great. No worse than Dickenson, Hetfield . I've heard both of them recently and their older voices are different. And there are some thinking he cant hack it live anymore? I just wholeheartily disagree.
What would be a good way to judge though? When people go to the concert, they're usually ecstatic, slightly buzzed or drunk and the music is blasting. If anything, this would be far more likely to distort one's perception. When you are sitting in your room sober and can replay a recording a billion times it is very difficult to say it's distorting reality. Just out of curiosity, are cell phone recordings a good way to tell if Petrucci had a good night?
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I am not loaded at the shows. I can hear the moments that arent quite right. The voice is never going to be perfect live. I can say, that what you hear on the Live in London is how it sounded. I saw that tour at the very beginning. James had a couple moments, but it wasnt even a thing. I dont think comparing the guitar to the voice is right. We shouldn't expect the voice to be perfect.
If we are judging a live performance, than that should come with a live listen.
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I don't think anyone expects perfection but people do expect consistent performances, in which everyone plays their instrument in tune and has a generally excellent sound. These are the expectations for a band like DT-- way higher than what one would expect from an average band with adequate musicians.
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I am not loaded at the shows. I can hear the moments that arent quite right. The voice is never going to be perfect live. I can say, that what you hear on the Live in London is how it sounded. I saw that tour at the very beginning. James had a couple moments, but it wasnt even a thing. I dont think comparing the guitar to the voice is right. We shouldn't expect the voice to be perfect.
If we are judging a live performance, than that should come with a live listen.
I completely agree with this. If it sounds good at the show, that's the show. Whether you were drunk, high, too excited, couldn't hear everything properly, or not. That's the show - what people who were actually there experienced.
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This is like banging a hot super model and then later looking at some paparazzi photos only to discover that she has a scar on her chin and an ugly mole on her neck.
What is important is the first hand experience. And as long as people are happy at DT concerts that's good.
I'm not saying James is perfect, in fact he's not. But DT plays live for the people who go to see them and not for the ones who listen to some bootlegs with poor audio quality.
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This is like banging a hot super model and then later looking at some paparazzi photos only to discover that she has a scar on her chin and an ugly mole on her neck.
Not sure that's the best analogy you could have used on this forum.
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I think we were talking about whether or not the singing is in tune, which is more or less objective-- the guy is either hitting the right notes in time or not. This is not the same as experience and enjoyment of a live show. The former can be experienced away by some individuals but as one can see from most of the posts in this thread, but it just doesn't mean there isn't something up with the live singing.
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I think we were talking about whether or not the singing is in tune, which is more or less objective-- the guy is either hitting the right notes in time or not. This is not the same as experience and enjoyment of a live show. The former can be experienced away by some individuals but as one can see from most of the posts in this thread, but it just doesn't mean there isn't something up with the live singing.
Yup. Seriously, and again, it's very possible to both have a good time and hear all that's going on. Most recordings of most concerts I attend sound remarkably similar to what I heard, and so does Dream Theater, and so does James.
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Live in London is awesome. Totally agree with geemo and Mora here.
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Live in London is awesome. Totally agree with geemo and Mora here.
Okay, but with the caveat that James sounded not-awesome at my show and the videos reflected that accurately as well :lol
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I am just listening (so many times now) to Live in London. I don't understand all the discontent about his voice. He sounds great! I was there, and he sounded the same live as in the recording. This is actually my go to version of Scenes. :yarr
I was there, too. He doesn't sound good at all at times on the official release and he sounded worse than that from the second row both nights, too (not that the row matters!). I was very impressed by the physicality of his performance up close those two nights, though. He was really, well... *trying*.
And LaBrie sounds about the same as Dickinson, does he? I mean, what? Bruce is going for, and hitting, a hell of a lot more than James is these days. And he's not standing still on stage, either! And Hetfield is playing some of the most complicated and fast rhythm guitar while singing.
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The stuff about a recording not reflecting the singer, any singer, hitting a note... it needs to stop. People aren't recording on bloody C90s anymore :lol
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I am just listening (so many times now) to Live in London. I don't understand all the discontent about his voice. He sounds great! I was there, and he sounded the same live as in the recording. This is actually my go to version of Scenes. :yarr
I was there, too. He doesn't sound good at all at times on the official release and he sounded worse than that from the second row both nights, too (not that the row matters!). I was very impressed by the physicality of his performance up close those two nights, though. He was really, well... *trying*.
And LaBrie sounds about the same as Dickinson, does he? I mean, what? Bruce is going for, and hitting, a hell of a lot more than James is these days. And he's not standing still on stage, either! And Hetfield is playing some of the most complicated and fast rhythm guitar while singing.
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The stuff about a recording not reflecting the singer, any singer, hitting a note... it needs to stop. People aren't recording on bloody C90s anymore :lol
Iron Maiden melodies are about a complicated as "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star". Sorry, I love Maiden, but there's no denying it. It's not apples to apples.
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I am just listening (so many times now) to Live in London. I don't understand all the discontent about his voice. He sounds great! I was there, and he sounded the same live as in the recording. This is actually my go to version of Scenes. :yarr
I was there, too. He doesn't sound good at all at times on the official release and he sounded worse than that from the second row both nights, too (not that the row matters!). I was very impressed by the physicality of his performance up close those two nights, though. He was really, well... *trying*.
And LaBrie sounds about the same as Dickinson, does he? I mean, what? Bruce is going for, and hitting, a hell of a lot more than James is these days. And he's not standing still on stage, either! And Hetfield is playing some of the most complicated and fast rhythm guitar while singing.
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The stuff about a recording not reflecting the singer, any singer, hitting a note... it needs to stop. People aren't recording on bloody C90s anymore :lol
Iron Maiden melodies are about a complicated as "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star". Sorry, I love Maiden, but there's no denying it. It's not apples to apples.
It never was to begin with :lol
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I am just listening (so many times now) to Live in London. I don't understand all the discontent about his voice. He sounds great! I was there, and he sounded the same live as in the recording. This is actually my go to version of Scenes. :yarr
I was there, too. He doesn't sound good at all at times on the official release and he sounded worse than that from the second row both nights, too (not that the row matters!). I was very impressed by the physicality of his performance up close those two nights, though. He was really, well... *trying*.
And LaBrie sounds about the same as Dickinson, does he? I mean, what? Bruce is going for, and hitting, a hell of a lot more than James is these days. And he's not standing still on stage, either! And Hetfield is playing some of the most complicated and fast rhythm guitar while singing.
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The stuff about a recording not reflecting the singer, any singer, hitting a note... it needs to stop. People aren't recording on bloody C90s anymore :lol
Iron Maiden melodies are about a complicated as "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star". Sorry, I love Maiden, but there's no denying it. It's not apples to apples.
So are most DT melodies in the past 2 decades.
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Incorrect.
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Hetfield is playing some of the most complicated and fast rhythm guitar.
Really now…