Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"

[Elite]

What is a 'decent guitar solo'? 

[max_security]

Thanks for replying, max. But right there you illustrate the same problem we're having with WildRanger. What if someone thinks Black Crows and Nickelback have decent solos? What if someone likes the guitar solo in Nirvana's Smells Like Teen Spirit even though a lot of metalheads shit on it? It's all subjective. Black Crows and Nickelback are still professional musicians, and, dare I say, make a better living than a lot of technically-obsessed progressive metal artists who can shred. Shredding is cool, but it doesn't matter much if it doesn't connect with people. And, as sad as it makes some people, technicality isn't at the front of most music fans' minds. They want music that makes them feel, and as much as metalheads don't like hearing it, shredding doesn't invoke much emotion for most people.

Also, not really sure what is 'PC' about what I wrote. That's confusing. Nothing here is being sugarcoated with political correctness.

I was in a band back then and had to play " Smells Like Teen Spirit " . One night I said " never again  " , and that was my last gig with that.

I learned a hard lesson back then ... kids are going to listen to something different than their parents , and if that means less or more talented than the former than so be it. Back in the 80's we had a quick rise and fall in what was an acceptable " standard " , and both were drivin by record execs.

Thats when I decided to cut off from the industry and music all together. The best guitar had already been played , Billy Sheehan had played all he could , and the same with drums. 1989 is the cut off for me as far as rock music , there is nothing beyond that. A few sparks here and ther but mostly nothingness ( as Fates Warning would say ).

But in the end , there is a standard as to what a pro musician should be. Today a guitar player needs to be able to do anything the players before him did ( alternate picking , arpeggios , tapping , blues , etc. ). Or at least write songs for people that can ? I don't know , F a Nickleback and a Black Crow.

[The Walrus]

That's fair and all, but all of that is subjective opinion after subjective opinion.

I'm gonna blow your mind here, I like several Nickelback songs. I also really like the guitar parts in a couple Eminem songs, one of which samples Aerosmith's Dream On for its entirety.

[WildRanger]

What is a 'decent guitar solo'? 

For example: Boston - More Than a Feeling

[max_security]

What is a 'decent guitar solo'? 

https://youtu.be/gpNIkRHbDZM

Pass the popcorn please.

[Elite]

What is a 'decent guitar solo'? 

For example: Boston - More Than a Feeling

I didn't ask for an example.

I'd like you (or anybody else) to explain to me what they think a 'decent guitar solo' is.
And while you're at it, answer the 2 dozen or so questions I asked you specifically earlier in this thread.

[lonestar]

This thread is just glorious.

[Elite]

This thread is just glorious.

I know, it's fantastic.

[The Walrus]

I'm telling my doctor this thread is why I have high blood pressure. 

[Elite]

I didn't ask for an example.

Or maybe I did. It's kind of funny that the one question I asked that isn't specific gets answered, while all the other ones get ignored.

[lonestar]

This thread is just glorious.

I know, it's fantastic.

We need to get him to start a thread in P&R on the objective superiority of Catholocism next.

[max_security]

I didn't ask for an example.

Or maybe I did. It's kind of funny that the one question I asked that isn't specific gets answered, while all the other ones get ignored.

Also ask how such a horrible song gathered this much attention.

But yeah , Jason Beckers " Perpetual Burn " should be way far in the past but it isn't. Ask the doctor why guitar playing went on hiatus for 20 years cause I'd like to know too  (or was he superhuman ). BS music be gone .

https://youtu.be/JU699mIBXmI

[The Walrus]

I love some shred and all but - just my opinion - Jason Becker and Cacophony get old soooo quickly. You hear one song, you've more or less heard it all. Insane chops on those guys, I will never ever ever belittle the talent of Jason Becker, but like... I dunno, man, it gets tiresome very fast for me

[MirrorMask]

Well, since this thread has became anyway the equivalent of the latter stage of a frat party, counter question: can those "objectively better" and more complex musician write a pop / rock hit that everybody knows and hums?

When Desmond Child helped Bon Jovi, You Give Love a Bad Name came out. When Desmond Child helped Alice Cooper, Poison came out. When Desmond Child helped Dream Theater, You Not Me came out.

Can John Petrucci write a song that becomes a mainstream hit? just to stay in relatively heavy territory, Halestorm won a grammy with the fast and addictive Love Bites (But so do I), can John Petrucci or the guys in Rush write a song like that?

[max_security]

I love some shred and all but - just my opinion - Jason Becker and Cacophony get old soooo quickly. You hear one song, you've more or less heard it all. Insane chops on those guys, I will never ever ever belittle the talent of Jason Becker, but like... I dunno, man, it gets tiresome very fast for me

They tried to hold back on quite a few tunes , I understand what you mean. They are an extreme example in the argument. Marty didn't play like that in MD and Becker in DLR.

but Images is awesome , no doubt.

[max_security]

The Anti GNR . This way was so much better , just not enough meat for the machine I guess. Some suit in NYC decided this for you back in 86 or something. Knocking On Heaven's Door , give me a Fing break man , we were way past this shit back then.

https://youtu.be/T1Va1F1dQWo

[max_security]

The Anti GNR . This way was so much better , just not enough meat for the machine I guess. Some suit in NYC decided this for you back in 86 or something. Knocking On Heaven's Door , give me a Fing break man , we were way past this shit back then.

https://youtu.be/T1Va1F1dQWo

while we are on the subject , is there ANYTHING out now equal to this ( link in post ) ? I'm doubting it , really. Badass playing and a bad ass tune man. They don't write them like that anymore.

[The Walrus]

The Anti GNR . This way was so much better , just not enough meat for the machine I guess. Some suit in NYC decided this for you back in 86 or something. Knocking On Heaven's Door , give me a Fing break man , we were way past this shit back then.

https://youtu.be/T1Va1F1dQWo

while we are on the subject , is there ANYTHING out now equal to this ( link in message ) ? I'm doubting it , really.

Well, yeah. To me, there are countless better things. Although that piece is good. Perhaps not to you. And that's okay.

[max_security]

We do have Jeff Loomis , I consider him to be the one carrying the torch. But he is actually from that time period too I believe.

[max_security]

Solo at 2:47. There is no equal.

https://youtu.be/rcwcxBf_fTE

The best guitar had been played by 1989. Period.

[The Walrus]

Okay WildRanger.

[Elite]

The best guitar had been played by 1989. Period.

What the fuck. Here we go again!

[max_security]

The best guitar had been played by 1989. Period.

What the fuck. Here we go again!

I was there before and after. Guitar playing skipped a generation . Best guitar solos 1994 ( from non-Shrapnel players from the 80's or John P) = none.

[max_security]

The best guitar had been played by 1989. Period.

What the fuck. Here we go again!

Dude , you work for Capitol Records ?

[Elite]

The best guitar had been played by 1989. Period.

I'm just going to reply to this one, because why not? First off, we have the 'best' again, which I'm not even going to address at this point, since time has proven that it's pointless. Then the next word, 'guitar'. What kind of guitar? You're obviously looking for a very specific style of guitar playing that was happening at the end of the 80's, but playing the guitar is so much more than just those examples (and the liked) which you gave. Absolutely, Jason Becker, Marty Friedman and Yngwie Malmsteen are people who can play the guitar very fast, but to me - someone who wasn't alive back then and who can't place the music in the time-frame - those records (and I've heard them) sound dated and boring.

Why the focus on guitar solos specifically? There's such a huge variety of music out there to explore that there's bound to be something you'll enjoy, even if you haven't found it yet. And I hear lots of guitar music still, not on the radio probably, but elsewhere. There's stuff happening within the guitar community that would not have been possible in 1989, people are still doing mind-blowing stuff every day and finding new, creative ways of using the instrument. To say it ended with some guys noodling over a few chords, playing stupidly fast lines back in 1989 is, quite frankly, kind of absurd.

[Elite]

The best guitar had been played by 1989. Period.

What the fuck. Here we go again!

Dude , you work for Capitol Records ?

I do not. Why?

[max_security]

The best guitar had been played by 1989. Period.

What the fuck. Here we go again!

Dude , you work for Capitol Records ?

I'm just wondering why you are mad that everyone is not drinking the GNR Kool -Aide bro. Not everyone liked it.

[The Walrus]

I weep.

[Elite]

The best guitar had been played by 1989. Period.

What the fuck. Here we go again!

Dude , you work for Capitol Records ?

I'm just wondering why you are mad that everyone is not drinking the GNR Kool -Aide bro. Not everyone liked it.

Stop the stupid personal attacks, that's not necessary. If you're wondering about my opinion on GNR, all you need to do is head over to the first page of this thread. Spoiler: I don't like them. And it doesn't matter if I did.

[max_security]

sorry I was way off base.

I was there , the time has passed , and I am too. If you get you get it , if not keep on keeping on. - Peace to all.

[Stadler]

After all, Miles Davis is a fucking hack.  Has he ever had a #1 record?  Toured stadia?  Sold a million copies of any of his singles?  He doesn't belong in the same conversation as Justin Beiber.

Do you realize that Miles Davis has created his music in different time when the music industry was not ruled by some greedy, idiotic powerful motherfuckers as its case today? Miles Davis hasn't given a fuck about fucking commercial success. That's one of reasons why he is so respected as an ARTIST! Do you get that?

Do you get I was making a point?   

(Of course, you don't know half of what you wrote FOR SURE, unless you've spoken to Miles himself, but that's also part of the point.)

[Stadler]

I and one my friend had a conversation about taste in music. And we agreed there is no good or bad taste, but someone either has a taste or not.
He said his wife shares only 20% musical interests with him, but she HAS A TASTE, she is good when it comes to recognizing what is quality music and what is garbage music.

Then your friend has as little credibility as you do.  I found someone once that agreed with me that I'm good looking, but that, alas, also doesn't make it so. 

[max_security]

The best guitar had been played by 1989. Period.

I'm just going to reply to this one, because why not? First off, we have the 'best' again, which I'm not even going to address at this point, since time has proven that it's pointless. Then the next word, 'guitar'. What kind of guitar? You're obviously looking for a very specific style of guitar playing that was happening at the end of the 80's, but playing the guitar is so much more than just those examples (and the liked) which you gave. Absolutely, Jason Becker, Marty Friedman and Yngwie Malmsteen are people who can play the guitar very fast, but to me - someone who wasn't alive back then and who can't place the music in the time-frame - those records (and I've heard them) sound dated and boring.

I missed this or something.

Intelligent composition ... everyone is worried or concerned about ' FAST " . It was never about playing fast , it was about playing with " talent ". The " remedial players won fellers "



I missed this or something.

Intelligent composition ... everyone is worried or concerned about ' FAST " . It was never about playing fast , it was about playing with " talent ". The " remedial players won fellers " .

Why the focus on guitar solos specifically? There's such a huge variety of music out there to explore that there's bound to be something you'll enjoy, even if you haven't found it yet. And I hear lots of guitar music still, not on the radio probably, but elsewhere. There's stuff happening within the guitar community that would not have been possible in 1989, people are still doing mind-blowing stuff every day and finding new, creative ways of using the instrument. To say it ended with some guys noodling over a few chords, playing stupidly fast lines back in 1989 is, quite frankly, kind of absurd.

I missed this or something.

Intelligent composition ... everyone is worried or concerned about ' FAST " . It was never about playing fast , it was about playing with " talent ". The " remedial players won fellers "

[Stadler]

Tell me this: Is Iron Maiden objectively better than Godsmack?

Objectively better AT WHAT?

I don't know a damn thing about Godsmack beyond what I'm reading on Wikipedia.  I imagine Maiden has sold more albums, but that shouldn't be surprising given that Maiden has been around a lot longer and has way more albums.

On the other hand, Godsmack appears to have 4 Grammy nominations to zero for Maiden.

Once again, asking whether something is "objectively better than" something else, you have to be clear about the relevant criteria.  As you phrased the question, it is utterly meaningless.

Justin Bieber is talentless.
He is just a singer/performer, not an artist. He hasn't one single characteristic of an artist. Compare him to widely appreciated artists as Bowie, Prince, Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson, Bob Marley, Marvin Gaye, Miles Davis, etc. What is he compared to them? Artist? Come on. 
His hits could be written by nearly everyone (including you or me).
Objectively he is one of the most hated singers on this planet, because the masses of people easily recognized his music is garbage.

And I don't think it's just an opinion, it's the truth.

Oh, for fuck's sake!

Justin Bieber has sole more than 150 million records.  He made a movie that was seen by millions and made millions of dollars in profit.  He is a MASSIVELY popular.  He is a hugely successful business person who has made millions on multiple business ventures.  If he's "talentless" and "objectively . . . one of the most hated singers on this planet," how has that happened?  While he might very well be hated by a lot of folks, it also seems to be an objective fact that he is also one of the most LOVED singers on the planet" (after all, one can be both "most hated" and "most loved").

He's "just a singer/performer, not an artist"?  Well...ok, if you define "artist" not to include "singers," but I think you'd be on that island alone.  Also, (1) Justin Bieber plays multiple instruments, and (2) wasn't Marvin Gaye also "just a singer/performer"?  Do you have to be primarily a player of a musical instrument to be considered an "artist"?  What about Ella Fitzgerald or Billie Holliday?  Were then "just singers/performers, not artists"?

Give me your opinion on this.

In one facebook rock fans group someone posted this question: "Name a better 3 musician band than Rush, if you can" and one guy responded with a big list of trio bands including Blink 182 and Green Day.
Even if someone is a big Rush hater I don't get how he can have an opinion that Blink 182 and Green Day are a 'better 3 musician bands' than Rush. That was a big insult to Rush.
His statement was absurd and wrong. Who in their right mind could claim something like that. LMAO

How would you react if someone tells you that Blink 182 and Green Day are better than Rush? Would you get into argument with that guy?

I know I'm late to the party, but you really are approaching "troll" status here.  You can't possibly be that obtuse to the point that multiple people have made over and over and over and over again.  "On what standard"?   You can't just say this shit and let it hang out there without some further fleshing out.

I wouldn't get into an "argument" with him, but I'd be curious what his OPINION was based on. 

[pg1067]

How would you react if someone tells you that Blink 182 and Green Day are better than Rush? Would you get into argument with that guy?

I'd shrug my shoulders and say, "whatever."  Or I'd say, "I like a couple Green Day songs too, but Rush is my favorite band of all time.  I have my subjective opinions, and you have yours, and the diversity of opinion is one thing that makes life interesting."  Or, I'd say, as I said to you and you didn't bother to answer, "Better at what?"

OK. Many people on this board think (good and bad) music is 100% subjective and I disagree with them. I'm entitled to it. They can't convince me that music is 100% subjective nor I can't convince them that music is not 100% subjective either.
Case closed.

Well...thank God!