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General => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: WildRanger on May 17, 2020, 11:38:39 AM

Title: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 17, 2020, 11:38:39 AM
I'd give it 4 stars.
You?

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: MirrorMask on May 17, 2020, 11:44:26 AM
Why "version"? didn't GNR write the song?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 17, 2020, 12:02:15 PM
Why "version"? didn't GNR write the song?

Nope. It's a cover of Bob Dylan's song.

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 17, 2020, 12:06:13 PM
The live version from the live record is 5 stars

The studio version gets 3 stars because the phone call bit is stupid but otherwise it's still far better than the original
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 17, 2020, 12:07:47 PM
The live version from the live record is 5 stars

The studio version gets 3 stars because the phone call bit is stupid but otherwise it's still far better than the original

That about sums it up perfectly.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: KevShmev on May 17, 2020, 01:06:35 PM
Well, to be honest, isn't just about every cover of Dylan better than his original? Anything has to be better than his original with him sounding like your drunk grandpa. :lol :lol

Great songwriter, obviously, but his singing makes me want to find the nearest quarry to jump into.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: TAC on May 17, 2020, 02:27:28 PM
What live album did GnR have?

I think the song blows, honestly. Musically, GnR does a great job on it, but Axl is awful on it.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 17, 2020, 02:31:41 PM
What live album did GnR have?

I think the song blows, honestly. Musically, GnR does a great job on it, but Axl is awful on it.

Live Era 87-93 I think itís called. Really great record.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: TAC on May 17, 2020, 02:33:18 PM
Oh, OK. I remember that. You know, despite seeing them a half dozen times during that period, I have never listened to anything off that album.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 17, 2020, 02:48:51 PM
It's a kickass live record
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 17, 2020, 03:16:01 PM
1 star out of 5, because it contains Axl Rose
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: TAC on May 17, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Just pulled up that live album on Spotify. Yeah, that live version of Knockin' is tons better than the studio version.


It's too bad that band imploded when they did.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: wolfking on May 17, 2020, 06:55:59 PM
Never cared for the song and never cared for GnR, so I'm sure you can figure out the rest.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: TAC on May 17, 2020, 07:00:05 PM
Thanks for playing! :lol
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: wolfking on May 17, 2020, 07:06:46 PM
Thanks for playing! :lol

Anytime!
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 18, 2020, 08:48:21 AM
Only four stars.  Don't like the phone call nonsense, and while I love the rockin' version, and really like Axl's singing, the affected "ow-oo-ows, hey, hey, hey-ee-yeah!" after every "door" gets old. 
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: ZirconBlue on May 18, 2020, 09:53:20 AM
The video was for a live version, but the first version I remember was from the Days of Thunder soundtrack, which was a little different from the version released on UYI II.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: pg1067 on May 18, 2020, 11:21:11 AM
1 star out of 5, because it contains Axl Rose

Ditto.  If zero stars were a possibility, that'd be my vote/
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 18, 2020, 12:57:30 PM
Definitely better than the original, but then again, it wouldn't take much, considering we're talking about Bob Dylan (just do NOT get the appeal of that guy). That said, Axl's whiny vocals repeatedly saying "Na-na-na-knockin' on heaven's doe-woar oh-whoa-oh-whoa-oh-whoa-oh-whoa yeah!" gets tiring quickly. I gave it 3 stars, but I think even that's being generous.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 18, 2020, 01:00:34 PM
I find it funny seeing all the complaints about the frontman/singer doing his job... singing. I think it adds to the song with the 'whoa-ohs'! But I get it, tastes.  :lol
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Cool Chris on May 18, 2020, 01:03:53 PM
Not often a song gets its own thread. I remember liking this song a lot when it came out, and I only liked a few GnR songs. Was a long time before I found out it was a Dylan song. Below sums up my current feelings. I can't imagine wanting to listen to it now.

Definitely better than the original, but then again, it wouldn't take much, considering we're talking about Bob Dylan (just do NOT get the appeal of that guy). That said, Axl's whiny vocals repeatedly saying "Na-na-na-knockin' on heaven's doe-woar oh-whoa-oh-whoa-oh-whoa-oh-whoa yeah!" gets tiring quickly. I gave it 3 stars, but I think even that's being generous.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 18, 2020, 02:12:32 PM
I find it funny seeing all the complaints about the frontman/singer doing his job... singing. I think it adds to the song with the 'whoa-ohs'! But I get it, tastes.  :lol

Are we not allowed to completely dislike the way he sounds? I'm not complaining in any way, just gave him 1 star out of 5 - indeed mainly because it does contain Axl Rose singing. Does it matter though? The majority of people don't like random growling (wo)man in death metal band X. Tastes indeed.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 18, 2020, 02:45:41 PM
I never once implied anyone isn't allowed to do anything
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 18, 2020, 02:54:49 PM
That's right, but you said you found it funny that people complain about the way he sings :)
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 18, 2020, 03:03:32 PM
That's right, but you said you found it funny that people complain about the way he sings :)

Well no, some are people saying '1/0 stars because Axl Rose' which is funny, but also that 'whoa-ohs' bug people more than I was aware of  :lol
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 18, 2020, 03:04:07 PM
Well then, at least I gave 1 star
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Zantera on May 18, 2020, 03:21:16 PM
It's OK i guess? Never really got into Guns n Roses when I was deep into that type of music and I think Axl was a big part of that. I mean sure the guy can sing but to me he's kinda the stereotypical 'full of himself egomaniac rock star singer' which is a bit of a turn off. Can definitely see how that would sway people either way.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 18, 2020, 03:44:06 PM
It's OK i guess? Never really got into Guns n Roses when I was deep into that type of music and I think Axl was a big part of that. I mean sure the guy can sing but to me he's kinda the stereotypical 'full of himself egomaniac rock star singer' which is a bit of a turn off. Can definitely see how that would sway people either way.

Completely disagree. Axl Rose is not a stereotypical "full of himself egomaniac."

He puts them to shame.  :lol
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: pg1067 on May 18, 2020, 04:22:00 PM
Well no, some are people saying '1/0 stars because Axl Rose' which is funny

Maybe you're using "funny" in a way that I'm not understanding.  Axl Rose sucks (although he does have degrees).  What's "funny" about giving GnR's version of this song a low ranking because of that?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Indiscipline on May 18, 2020, 04:33:44 PM
Two stars.

Good rock translation of the Dylan song (which is way more enjoyable in its context movie), partially ruined by annoying singing mannerism.

There was just NO escaping that song in the summer of '92.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Peter Mc on May 18, 2020, 04:59:51 PM
Absolutely love it, Slashís guitar work alone makes this a 5 star rating.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: dparrott on May 18, 2020, 06:35:24 PM
This is the best version imo.  1988. 
https://youtu.be/KqzXpNBQxVA
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: KevShmev on May 18, 2020, 06:36:11 PM
I find Rose's vocalisms in this song kinda comical, which adds a certain charm to it, I guess. I don't seek the song out, but it's enjoyable whenever I hear it. 

He can be a very annoying singer (see: the verses to Paradise City), but he can sing pretty well in a normal, non-raspy voice when he wants.  It's just too bad it was never that often.  And I am not one to defend the mega-egomaniac that is Axl Rose, but I will give credit where it's due.  I have always been a big fan of Patience, and I think he does a really good job on that one.

I feel a little gross just typing that... :lol :lol
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 19, 2020, 04:05:23 AM
Well no, some are people saying '1/0 stars because Axl Rose' which is funny

Maybe you're using "funny" in a way that I'm not understanding.  Axl Rose sucks (although he does have degrees).  What's "funny" about giving GnR's version of this song a low ranking because of that?

Thanks :)
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 19, 2020, 04:37:22 AM
It seems Axl is one of the most polarizing rock vocalists.
His voice is a main reason why so many people dislike GnR.

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Dream Team on May 19, 2020, 05:45:18 AM
Why "version"? didn't GNR write the song?

Nope. It's a cover of Bob Dylan's song.

 :lol
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 19, 2020, 05:50:08 AM
It seems Axl is one of the most polarizing rock vocalists.
His voice is a main reason why so many people dislike GnR.

Are you just finding this out or something? Wtf  :lol
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: MirrorMask on May 19, 2020, 05:50:26 AM
Why "version"? didn't GNR write the song?

Nope. It's a cover of Bob Dylan's song.

 :lol

At lest someone who knows what the green font stands for  :lol
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Fritzinger on May 19, 2020, 06:28:33 AM
It's nothing compared to Avril Lavigne's version
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 19, 2020, 07:16:44 AM
That's right, but you said you found it funny that people complain about the way he sings :)

Well no, some are people saying '1/0 stars because Axl Rose' which is funny, but also that 'whoa-ohs' bug people more than I was aware of  :lol

The funny thing is, I love that guy.   Seriously.  I just lucked out and got the Appetite Deluxe Version, with all the demos (two CDs worth) and man, do I have a new appreciation for him.   Some of those demos are rawer than the ones that came out on LP/CD, and they have so much energy (think "Too Fast For Love", by Crue, or "Under The Blade" by Twisted Sister).    Plus, I saw him in a 1,200 seat club in Philly sing for three fucking straight hours (he left the stage only for Dizzy's piano spot) and he nailed the entire set.   Really impressive vocal performance (one of the best I've ever seen, actually).   I get it, he has a tone that you sort of have to like, but he is the real deal.

For some reason, though, the affectations on "Knockin'..." seem to overwhelm the rest of the song.  It's only fair to point out that the original is one of the few Dylan songs I like; it's got such a bleak vibe to it, it's almost outlaw country in it's delivery. 

EDIT: And I didn't even mention Slash's guitar; I think he's a real talent, one of the greats.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 19, 2020, 07:18:34 AM
What, you didn't shell out a grand for the ultra turbo locked'n'loaded set in a safe?  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 19, 2020, 07:30:13 AM
What, you didn't shell out a grand for the ultra turbo locked'n'loaded set in a safe?  :biggrin:

No friggin' way.   Just about the music for me, not the trinkets.  Though there's a cassette tape of early demos on the big one that I'd like to hear; need to look on YouTube for that. 
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 20, 2020, 01:50:13 AM
I don't get how so many people can't stand Axl Rose's singing but they don't mind Brian Johnson's vocals at all. Masses of people bought "Back in Black" and masses of people think it's an enjoyable record. Johnson's voice is a definition of "fingernails on a chalkboard" and people don't mind him, but they always want to bash Axl's voice. DOUBLE STANDARDS!

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: MirrorMask on May 20, 2020, 01:55:12 AM
Well, I totally don't care for Brian Johnson's vocals either. Him, Ozzy and Axl legit ruins my enjoyment of their songs. With Axl surprisingly being the one that I can put up better with.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2020, 05:41:42 AM
I like Brian Johnson but Bon Scott aggravates me every now and then. Ozzy sucks and I can't stand him.

But I don't think that's double standards, that's just tastes. There's no objective measurement for this kind of thing, you like what you like and don't like what you don't like.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 20, 2020, 06:11:59 AM
There's no objective measurement for this kind of thing

Oh no don't start this discussion again :lol
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 20, 2020, 07:34:12 AM

There's no objective measurement for this kind of thing, you like what you like and don't like what you don't like.

Freddie Mercury is objectively a great vocalist. Bob Dylan is objectively a bad vocalist. Who can argue with that?

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2020, 07:35:14 AM

There's no objective measurement for this kind of thing, you like what you like and don't like what you don't like.

Freddie Mercury is objectively a great vocalist. Bob Dylan is objectively a bad vocalist. Who can argue with that?

Stop that!
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 20, 2020, 07:35:46 AM

There's no objective measurement for this kind of thing, you like what you like and don't like what you don't like.

Freddie Mercury is objectively a great vocalist. Bob Dylan is objectively a bad vocalist. Who can argue with that?

Stop that!

Why?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2020, 08:01:58 AM
Well, no, actually, Bob Dylan is not an objectively bad vocalist, in my opinion. Hear me out, and I'm sorry if this looks like splitting hairs or being pedantic, but...

Maybe an objectively bad singer, depending on the situation. He's not in an academic setting trying to pay attention to the dynamics, pitch, articulations etc. of some composer in a classical setting, he's not being graded or listening to a coach. But he's out there singing his own songs, stuff he made himself, and loads of people like his voice. You can't call him objectively bad, because that is his art and he's performing it his way. That's the beauty of art. Dylan ain't under the illusion that he's some great singer, but he's not trying to be, that's not his goal. He's not doing opera. I don't like Dylan at all but I don't agree with calling him an objectively bad vocalist (I think there is a difference in that term compared with 'singer' as anal as it might seem). Same with Tom Waits after his first album.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 20, 2020, 08:04:34 AM
Noooooo, we've unleashed objective quality hell again
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2020, 08:05:13 AM
Noooooo, we've unleashed objective quality hell again

Well, don't peek in the thread if you don't want to see it, then. I think it's an interesting discussion and something I think about all the time.

I'd rather talk about that than listen to people come in and rate a song 0 stars just because they don't like the singer and offer nothing else about the song itself. ;) ;) (I'm being a wiseass, but I think that's fair discussion, too, I'm just being cheeky.)
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2020, 08:13:15 AM
My issue is that the conversation has already been decided. No art is objectively good or bad, no artists are objectively good or bad. You can create certain criteria to judge them by, but then it's 100% subjective. So I don't see where the convo can go other than in circles.

Also WildRanger either ignores posts or never takes any of them in because he hasn't changed any of his arguments in the slightest bit in years, so I dunno what the goal is.

But, it's his thread. So have at it. I'd rather it stay here than somewhere else.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2020, 08:15:38 AM
Well that's also part of it, WR threads always go off the rails, so why not have the conversation? We could say a lot of discussions around these parts have already been had, too. But if people still want to talk about how great Number of the Beast is, or what a phenomenal frontman Freddie Mercury is, they still do. I dunno who 'decided' the conversation, 'cause there are still people who don't agree with the (apparent) consensus here that no art is objectively good or bad. I just wanna talk music with people, Dr. A :getoffmylawn:  :lol
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2020, 08:17:51 AM
Well that's also part of it, WR threads always go off the rails, so why not have the conversation? We could say a lot of discussions around these parts have already been had, too. But if people still want to talk about how great Number of the Beast is, or what a phenomenal frontman Freddie Mercury is, they still do. I dunno who 'decided' the conversation, 'cause there are still people who don't agree with the (apparent) consensus here that no art is objectively good or bad. I just wanna talk music with people, Dr. A :getoffmylawn:  :lol

 :heart
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 20, 2020, 08:23:47 AM
Noooooo, we've unleashed objective quality hell again

Well, don't peek in the thread if you don't want to see it, then. I think it's an interesting discussion and something I think about all the time.

Oh, but I do want to see it, because I think it's kind of hilarious, or 'funny' if you will :)

And Adami kind of hit the nail on the head. Every single WildRanger thread is a question along the lines of 'which of these options is better' or 'rate this thing' or 'why do people think X is good/bad' without every addressing the topic other than randomly dumping the question. But apparently it works, because it sparks conversation. About what we should talk about instead.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 20, 2020, 08:26:23 AM
My issue is that the conversation has already been decided. No art is objectively good or bad, no artists are objectively good or bad. You can create certain criteria to judge them by, but then it's 100% subjective. So I don't see where the convo can go other than in circles.


Man, how can you say that Miles Davis is not objectively better than Justin Bieber, when there are so many objective arguments for that???
I could accept that music is mostly subjective, but not 100% subjective. If music is 100% subjective then that gives some idiots the right to claim that Bieber is better than Miles Davis.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2020, 08:27:42 AM
My issue is that the conversation has already been decided. No art is objectively good or bad, no artists are objectively good or bad. You can create certain criteria to judge them by, but then it's 100% subjective. So I don't see where the convo can go other than in circles.


Man, how can you say that Miles Davis is not objectively better than Justin Bieber, when there are so many objective arguments for that???
I could accept that music is mostly subjective, but not 100% subjective. If music is 100% subjective then that gives some idiots the right to claim that Bieber is better than Miles Davis.

It can be argued with Justin Bieber is better than Miles Davis. I don't agree with it, but that's not the point.

Ugh! I'm not doing this.

Kittyloops, this is yours.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 20, 2020, 08:28:13 AM
Justin Bieber is definitely better at selling out arenas than Miles Davis was.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2020, 08:31:56 AM
@Elite: Who cares if he does or doesn't reply, if there's a conversation (edit: constructive conversation...) that gets sparked? That's the entire point of message boards. I get the underlying point, I do, believe me, but I like the thought exercises whether they've been done before or not. If I don't want to participate in a conversation or read it then I won't.

What are we talking about when we say "Miles Davis is better than Justin Bieber"? These two musicians are not remotely similar. What are we comparing? Their worth? Their legacy? Who plays the trumpet better? Who sings better? Just tossing out "Miles Davis is objectively better than Justin Bieber" is nonsensical. What does better mean? Now we are getting into silly unconstructive debate territory, with no parameters or control this is useless, so hilariously, I might be done now myself   :rollin
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 20, 2020, 08:32:45 AM
Justin Bieber is definitely better at selling out arenas than Miles Davis was.

Yep. Because he is a very commercial singer/performer today, which music is aimed at kids, mostly girls. But when it comes to actual music fans, he will never get 5% of appreciation that Miles Davis generally has.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Indiscipline on May 20, 2020, 08:35:17 AM
Justin Bieber is definitely better at selling out arenas than Miles Davis was.

Yep. Because he is a very commercial singer/performer today, which music is aimed at kids, mostly girls. But when it comes to actual music fans, he will never get 5% of appreciation that Miles Davis generally has.

Il bite like a dumbfish, because this could go fantastic places.

WR, what makes a music fan an "actual" music fan then?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Podaar on May 20, 2020, 08:36:46 AM
Oh, boy.  :corn
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 20, 2020, 08:40:13 AM

What are we talking about when we say "Miles Davis is better than Justin Bieber"? These two musicians are not remotely similar. What are we comparing? Their worth? Their legacy? Who plays the trumpet better? Who sings better? Just tossing out "Miles Davis is objectively better than Justin Bieber" is nonsensical. What does better mean? Now we are getting into silly unconstructive debate territory, with no parameters or control this is useless, so hilariously, I might be done now myself   :rollin

We can compare their worth, legacy, quality of music, impact, talent, etc.

OK. Then, is David Bowie objectively better than Ed Sheeran? David Bowie is generally held in very high regard as a music artist, while Ed Sheeran is not. Why? There are the reasons for that.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 20, 2020, 08:51:59 AM
Justin Bieber is definitely better at selling out arenas than Miles Davis was.

Yep. Because he is a very commercial singer/performer today, which music is aimed at kids, mostly girls. But when it comes to actual music fans, he will never get 5% of appreciation that Miles Davis generally has.

Il bite like a dumbfish, because this could go fantastic places.

WR, what makes a music fan an "actual" music fan then?

Development of personal taste in music.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2020, 08:54:03 AM
You know, I take back what I said.

This is pretty entertaining.


Actual music fans are people who like objectively good music. BOOM!
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Indiscipline on May 20, 2020, 09:00:10 AM
Justin Bieber is definitely better at selling out arenas than Miles Davis was.

Yep. Because he is a very commercial singer/performer today, which music is aimed at kids, mostly girls. But when it comes to actual music fans, he will never get 5% of appreciation that Miles Davis generally has.

Il bite like a dumbfish, because this could go fantastic places.

WR, what makes a music fan an "actual" music fan then?

Development of personal taste in music.


Got it. What do you mean by development though?

I can see both the music fan and the "actual" music fan listening to music and having personal taste. How does the development - the deal breaker, as it were - part work?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 20, 2020, 09:00:48 AM
You know, I take back what I said.

This is pretty entertaining.


Actual music fans are people who like objectively good music. BOOM!

Actual music fan is e.g. someone who listens "Bitches Brew" or "Hunky Dory" instead of current Justin Bieber or Ed Sheeran hits in his room.


Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2020, 09:05:31 AM
And where do I fall, as a pianist who listens to Mozart, Ed Sheeran, Britney Spears, GnR, Enya, Howard Shore, Gustav Holst, and Eminem, with a degree in classical piano education, who buys CDs, vinyl, and pays for Spotify?

I hope your brain melts. :)
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: emtee on May 20, 2020, 09:06:34 AM
The only way you could objectively measure a musicians capability would be to devise tests--like typing tests--at various speeds and see who makes fewer mistakes. Unfortunately that would still have zero correlation between the musicians ability to create music that people connect with.


As far as the thread, I don't own a single GnR album and it's because I would prefer to hear a Skil saw cut through corrugated metal while a  cat is getting declawed.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 20, 2020, 09:07:17 AM
Justin Bieber is definitely better at selling out arenas than Miles Davis was.

Yep. Because he is a very commercial singer/performer today, which music is aimed at kids, mostly girls. But when it comes to actual music fans, he will never get 5% of appreciation that Miles Davis generally has.

Il bite like a dumbfish, because this could go fantastic places.

WR, what makes a music fan an "actual" music fan then?

Development of personal taste in music.


Got it. What do you mean by development though?

I can see both the music fan and the "actual" music fan listening to music and having personal taste. How does the development - the deal breaker, as it were - part work?

If someone is a youngster who listens only current Top 20 hits he is definitely not gonna DEVELOP a taste in music. If someone is a youngster who saw some list of "greatest albums of all time" and then he decided to take a listen to e.g. "Kind of Blue" or "Abbey Road" or "Ziggy Stardust" he is gonna DEVELOP a taste in music and he will become an actual music fan.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2020, 09:07:22 AM
As far as the thread, I don't own a single GnR album and it's because I would prefer to hear a Skil saw cut through corrugated metal while a  cat is getting declawed.

So you like Appetite for Destruction?  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 20, 2020, 09:08:48 AM

As far as the thread, I don't own a single GnR album and it's because I would prefer to hear a Skil saw cut through corrugated metal while a  cat is getting declawed.

So it means you can't stand Axl's voice?

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 20, 2020, 09:14:21 AM
I have a degree in classical piano education

Cool, I did not know that!
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Indiscipline on May 20, 2020, 09:17:05 AM
Justin Bieber is definitely better at selling out arenas than Miles Davis was.

Yep. Because he is a very commercial singer/performer today, which music is aimed at kids, mostly girls. But when it comes to actual music fans, he will never get 5% of appreciation that Miles Davis generally has.

Il bite like a dumbfish, because this could go fantastic places.

WR, what makes a music fan an "actual" music fan then?

Development of personal taste in music.


Got it. What do you mean by development though?

I can see both the music fan and the "actual" music fan listening to music and having personal taste. How does the development - the deal breaker, as it were - part work?

If someone is a youngster who listens only current Top 20 hits he is definitely not gonna DEVELOP a taste in music. If someone is a youngster who saw some list of "greatest albums of all time" and then he decided to take a listen to e.g. "Kind of Blue" or "Abbey Road" or "Ziggy Stardust" he is gonna DEVELOP a taste in music and he will become an actual music fan.

Ok, I get it. Current Top 20 = no development, some GOAT list = development.

What are the criteria for those lists though? Where is the guarantee they're going to suggest development-worthy material?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 20, 2020, 09:28:36 AM
Justin Bieber is definitely better at selling out arenas than Miles Davis was.

Yep. Because he is a very commercial singer/performer today, which music is aimed at kids, mostly girls. But when it comes to actual music fans, he will never get 5% of appreciation that Miles Davis generally has.

Il bite like a dumbfish, because this could go fantastic places.

WR, what makes a music fan an "actual" music fan then?

Development of personal taste in music.


Got it. What do you mean by development though?

I can see both the music fan and the "actual" music fan listening to music and having personal taste. How does the development - the deal breaker, as it were - part work?

If someone is a youngster who listens only current Top 20 hits he is definitely not gonna DEVELOP a taste in music. If someone is a youngster who saw some list of "greatest albums of all time" and then he decided to take a listen to e.g. "Kind of Blue" or "Abbey Road" or "Ziggy Stardust" he is gonna DEVELOP a taste in music and he will become an actual music fan.

Ok, I get it. Current Top 20 = no development, some GOAT list = development.

What are the criteria for those lists though? Where is the guarantee they're going to suggest development-worthy material?

Music is very similar as literature. If someone read over 200 classics he knows much more about literature than someone who didn't read more than 2 or 3 books in his life. Man who read only 2 or 3 books actually doesn't know s*it about literature.
So if some kid is only listening to current Bieber and Sheeran hits and nothing besides that, then he doesn't know s*it about music.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Indiscipline on May 20, 2020, 09:36:31 AM



Ok, I get it. Current Top 20 = no development, some GOAT list = development.

What are the criteria for those lists though? Where is the guarantee they're going to suggest development-worthy material?

Music is very similar as literature. If someone read over 200 classics he knows much more about literature than someone who didn't read more than 2 or 3 books in his life. Man who read only 2 or 3 books actually doesn't know s*it about literature.
So if some kid is only listening to current Bieber and Sheeran hits and nothing besides that, then he doesn't know s*it about music.

(Sorry for cutting the quote tree, it was becoming unreadable)

I think I've understood the literature comparison, but the question still stands. Who selects the classics and by which criteria?

Plus, what happens to this system when, after a lifetime of perusing the classics, the grown kid still likes Bieber and Sheeran?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2020, 09:43:31 AM
Is it just Bieber and and Sheeran?

What about Billie Eilish and Lady Gaga? I love both of them. Am I objectively wrong?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 20, 2020, 09:45:06 AM
And what does 'knowing shit about music' even mean? Do I need to understand the musical qualities of the music, the melodic, harmonic, rhythmic, dynamic and timbral subtleties in the music, or the cultural references in the music, why the music is structured the way it is, or its placement within history and/or society etc. etc. in order to enjoy it?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: bosk1 on May 20, 2020, 09:47:39 AM
What about Billie Eilish and Lady Gaga? I love both of them. Am I objectively wrong?

Well...yes.  But for different reasons.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2020, 09:48:26 AM
What about Billie Eilish and Lady Gaga? I love both of them. Am I objectively wrong?

Well...yes.  But for different reasons.

Oh shush. You know they're both awesome.

I actually think a collaboration between Billie and JR would be pretty cool.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: pg1067 on May 20, 2020, 09:51:05 AM
My issue is that the conversation has already been decided. No art is objectively good or bad, no artists are objectively good or bad. You can create certain criteria to judge them by, but then it's 100% subjective. So I don't see where the convo can go other than in circles.


Man, how can you say that Miles Davis is not objectively better than Justin Bieber, when there are so many objective arguments for that???
I could accept that music is mostly subjective, but not 100% subjective. If music is 100% subjective then that gives some idiots the right to claim that Bieber is better than Miles Davis.

Objectively better at what?  Miles Davis is/was probably "objectively better" at playing the trumpet because, AFAIK, Justin Bieber doesn't play the trumpet.  But maybe he does, and maybe he's really good.  On the other hand, Justin Bieber is unquestionably better at making young girls swoon, and he's probably better at selling product.  Who's the "better" artist?  That's a question that cannot be answered objectively.  Ask 100 jazz aficionados, and you'll probably get a unanimous vote in favor of Davis.  On the other hand, if you ask 100 girls between the ages of 12-18 and you'll probably get exactly the opposite result.

Is Pride and Prejudice "better than" Jurassic Park?  I sure as hell don't think so, but literature snobs would probably universally say otherwise.

But getting back to Axl Rose and Brian Johnson, they have similarities, but they're not at all the same.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2020, 09:52:24 AM
I'm still waiting for WR to address whether or not I'm a real music fan. There's a pop record that's one of my favorite records of the year and Em's is my #1 so far, but I worked on Mozart for 5 hours last night. Bring yourself online, WildRanger. Engage analysis mode.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: MirrorMask on May 20, 2020, 09:52:48 AM
Well, speaking more generally, I think we can say that music in the end is entertainment, and for some is a legit passion, for others is just background entertainment. Nobody is required to have a list of favorite artists and a deep musical knowledge about Elvis, the Beatles and all jazz's prominent players, some people are just happy to have a hummable or danceable music to listen to.

I mean, most of us if put inside the Louvre would mainly go to see Leonardo's Gioconda. That painting is the Nothing Else Matters or More than Words of art, everyone and their mother knows it, but there's so much more in the Louvre. It's not a crime to not know at least 10 paintings or statues situated in the Louvre just like it's not a crime to just enjoy have some background "noise" while doing other stuff, and being content with going with the flow and "passively" enjoying whatever the radio broadcasts.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: pg1067 on May 20, 2020, 09:53:50 AM
I'm still waiting for WR to address whether or not I'm a real music fan.

LOL...that reminds me of when I was in high school, and my friends and I would get on each other with comments like, "if you like the Go-Go's, then you're not a REAL metal fan."
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2020, 09:59:23 AM
My issue is that the conversation has already been decided. No art is objectively good or bad, no artists are objectively good or bad. You can create certain criteria to judge them by, but then it's 100% subjective. So I don't see where the convo can go other than in circles.


Man, how can you say that Miles Davis is not objectively better than Justin Bieber, when there are so many objective arguments for that???
I could accept that music is mostly subjective, but not 100% subjective. If music is 100% subjective then that gives some idiots the right to claim that Bieber is better than Miles Davis.

Objectively better at what?  Miles Davis is/was probably "objectively better" at playing the trumpet because, AFAIK, Justin Bieber doesn't play the trumpet.  But maybe he does, and maybe he's really good.  On the other hand, Justin Bieber is unquestionably better at making young girls swoon, and he's probably better at selling product.  Who's the "better" artist?  That's a question that cannot be answered objectively.  Ask 100 jazz aficionados, and you'll probably get a unanimous vote in favor of Davis.  On the other hand, if you ask 100 girls between the ages of 12-18 and you'll probably get exactly the opposite result.

Is Pride and Prejudice "better than" Jurassic Park?  I sure as hell don't think so, but literature snobs would probably universally say otherwise.

But getting back to Axl Rose and Brian Johnson, they have similarities, but they're not at all the same.

I'm also going to blow this up and say that Miles isn't an objectively better trumpet player than Justin. We subjectively decided what makes a good trumpet player. If I decide that making awful awful noise counts as better, then Justin is likely better.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 20, 2020, 10:23:42 AM

Who selects the classics and by which criteria?


Music fans, musicians (who are influenced by some previous musicians) and critics from different age groups.
Why is "Kind of Blue" a timeless classic? Because there is so wide consensus that it has the musical and artistic merit. Plus it transcends the jazz genre and generations of listeners.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 20, 2020, 10:24:19 AM
I'm still waiting for WR to address whether or not I'm a real music fan. There's a pop record that's one of my favorite records of the year and Em's is my #1 so far, but I worked on Mozart for 5 hours last night. Bring yourself online, WildRanger. Engage analysis mode.

5 hours? Pffft, that's nothing. Play at least 8 hours a day and then come back to me, you fake music fan.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 20, 2020, 10:28:18 AM
Well, speaking more generally, I think we can say that music in the end is entertainment, and for some is a legit passion, for others is just background entertainment.

Nope. Miles Davis or Beethoven's music is not entertainment, but Britney Spears or Jennifer Lopez music is. Two totally different purposes.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2020, 10:29:56 AM
Well, speaking more generally, I think we can say that music in the end is entertainment, and for some is a legit passion, for others is just background entertainment.

Nope. Miles Davis or Beethoven's music is not entertainment, but Britney Spears or Jennifer Lopez music is. Two totally different purposes.
:rollin :rollin

Do you have any idea why people comissioned Beethoven to write music?

Do you have any idea why most people went to see Miles Davis in concert?

Here's a hint, to be entertained.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2020, 10:35:22 AM
Debate is fun when it's actually meaningful or about substantive issues but I can only believe you're taking the piss out of this whole thing. WR, you exhibit such poor knowledge about music and the history of music and its purpose (see Adami's rofling about commissioning Beethoven, for example) that this is beyond laughable. You are either trolling or really adamant about things you don't know much about.

And as someone who's played Beethoven for audiences who, as far as I can tell enjoyed it, screw you. :) :)
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2020, 10:37:28 AM
Debate is fun when it's actually meaningful or about substantive issues but I can only believe you're taking the piss out of this whole thing. WR, you exhibit such poor knowledge about music and the history of music and its purpose (see Adami's rofling about commissioning Beethoven, for example) that this is beyond laughable. You are either trolling or really adamant about things you don't know much about.

And as someone who's played Beethoven for audiences who, as far as I can tell enjoyed it, screw you. :) :)

Can't say I didn't warn you.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2020, 10:37:58 AM
Debate is fun when it's actually meaningful or about substantive issues but I can only believe you're taking the piss out of this whole thing. WR, you exhibit such poor knowledge about music and the history of music and its purpose (see Adami's rofling about commissioning Beethoven, for example) that this is beyond laughable. You are either trolling or really adamant about things you don't know much about.

And as someone who's played Beethoven for audiences who, as far as I can tell enjoyed it, screw you. :) :)

Can't say I didn't warn you.

I am the clown. This is what I get for trying to appeal to better angels. Now I'm going motherfuckin' psychosane.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2020, 10:38:17 AM
Dammit, you quoted me before I could alter my post.

Rats.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2020, 10:38:48 AM
Dammit, you quoted me before I could alter my post.

Rats.

 :heart
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Indiscipline on May 20, 2020, 10:47:37 AM

Who selects the classics and by which criteria?


Music fans, musicians (who are influenced by some previous musicians) and critics from different age groups.
Why is "Kind of Blue" a timeless classic? Because there is so wide consensus that it has the musical and artistic merit. Plus it transcends the jazz genre and generations of listeners.

Ok, I think I get it. I try and draw some logical consequences, but please stop me any time you feel I'm mirepresenting your reasoning:

A) GOAT lists = fans', musicians', critics' personal tastes

B) Top 20's = majority buyers' tastes.

I follow A, I develop my personal taste, I am an actual music fan

I follow B, I don't develop my personal taste, I am just a music fan

Questions:

Am I not letting my personal taste be dictated (which negates development) by someone else's personal taste in both instances?

Are we sure I am not limiting my taste's development if I'm neglecting B?

Are we sure the fans/musicians/critics group and the majority buyers group don't overlap somewhere?

What happens to the system when the kid has grown listening to all the right classics and still likes Billie Eilish and Lady Gaga?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 20, 2020, 11:11:32 AM
Well, speaking more generally, I think we can say that music in the end is entertainment, and for some is a legit passion, for others is just background entertainment.

Nope. Miles Davis or Beethoven's music is not entertainment, but Britney Spears or Jennifer Lopez music is. Two totally different purposes.
:rollin :rollin

Do you have any idea why people comissioned Beethoven to write music?

Do you have any idea why most people went to see Miles Davis in concert?

Here's a hint, to be entertained.

Nah. They couldn't dance to it.  ;D

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 20, 2020, 11:17:11 AM
Itís like Devin Townsend said: ďand music? Well, itís just entertainment folks!Ē
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 20, 2020, 11:19:41 AM

Questions:

Am I not letting my personal taste be dictated (which negates development) by someone else's personal taste in both instances?

Are we sure I am not limiting my taste's development if I'm neglecting B?

Are we sure the fans/musicians/critics group and the majority buyers group don't overlap somewhere?

What happens to the system when the kid has grown listening to all the right classics and still likes Billie Eilish and Lady Gaga?

Short answers:
1) Nope
2) Nope
3) Probably they could overlap  somewhere
4) Then there is nothing wrong with that if he dig/get those classics and Gaga/Eilish would probably be in his "guilty pleasure" category
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2020, 11:26:58 AM
I think Lady Gaga and Billie Eilish (and her brother) are brilliant and don't consider them, at all, guilty pleasures.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Indiscipline on May 20, 2020, 11:31:46 AM

Questions:

Am I not letting my personal taste be dictated (which negates development) by someone else's personal taste in both instances?

Are we sure I am not limiting my taste's development if I'm neglecting B?

Are we sure the fans/musicians/critics group and the majority buyers group don't overlap somewhere?

What happens to the system when the kid has grown listening to all the right classics and still likes Billie Eilish and Lady Gaga?

Short answers:
1) Nope
2) Nope
3) Probably somewhere they could overlap
4) Then there is nothing wrong with that if he dig/get those classics

Thank you! I really want to fully understand your system.

I'm really interested in the reasoning behind the two nopes, if you have time.

The fourth answer is damn intriguing and spawns other questions:

Is there something wrong if, once I got those classics, I still don't dig them?

What if Bieber and J-Lo become classics one day? After all, once upon a time, The Beatles were mainly a hugely commercial product for "youngsters and girls" and Beethoven was arguably the first "pop star musician". Should we question developments then?

Have you ever loved or disliked a piece of music while oblivious to its ranking in the critics' opinion?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2020, 11:34:21 AM
Quote from: WildRanger
Nah. They couldn't dance to it.  ;D

... yeah, you don't know what you're talking about. At all.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 20, 2020, 11:35:45 AM
Is it just Bieber and and Sheeran?

What about Billie Eilish and Lady Gaga? I love both of them. Am I objectively wrong?

You would have no (developed) taste if you knew and listened ONLY them.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 20, 2020, 11:54:07 AM
If I decide that making awful awful noise counts as better, then Justin is likely better.
Excuse me - who says that it's awful awful noise, mister?!?!?  :omg:
 
 
I think Lady Gaga and Billie Eilish (and her brother) are brilliant and don't consider them, at all, guilty pleasures.
Except that Bad Guy is absolutely awful. Ocean Eyes is pretty decent.  :-*
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2020, 11:56:54 AM
If I decide that making awful awful noise counts as better, then Justin is likely better.
Excuse me - who says that it's awful awful noise, mister?!?!?  :omg:
 
 
I think Lady Gaga and Billie Eilish (and her brother) are brilliant and don't consider them, at all, guilty pleasures.
Except that Bad Guy is absolutely awful. Ocean Eyes is pretty decent.  :-*

First off, my good man, it's doctor, not mister.  ;D

Second, Bad Guy is great, but she has a lot more than two songs. Her first album has 1 or 2 songs i don't care for (not counting the opening talking track) but songs like I Love You, Goodbye, You Should See Me With a Crown, and almost all of the rest are incredible.

And you can sit and really listen to the production of it and what went into it and it's pretty outstanding.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: emtee on May 20, 2020, 01:12:41 PM
Where does Sunn O))) fit into this convo?

Yowza.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2020, 01:13:38 PM
Is it just Bieber and and Sheeran?

What about Billie Eilish and Lady Gaga? I love both of them. Am I objectively wrong?

You would have no (developed) taste if you knew and listened ONLY them.

You would have no (developed) taste if you knew and listened ONLY to ANY one or two artists.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 20, 2020, 01:49:03 PM
Is it just Bieber and and Sheeran?

What about Billie Eilish and Lady Gaga? I love both of them. Am I objectively wrong?

You would have no (developed) taste if you knew and listened ONLY them.

You would have no (developed) taste if you knew and listened ONLY to ANY one or two artists.

Yes.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 20, 2020, 01:59:02 PM
And you can sit and really listen to the production of it and what went into it and it's pretty outstanding.
Great production doesn't mean jack squat when it comes to Bad Guy. That song is just horrible.  :P
 
 
Is it just Bieber and and Sheeran?

What about Billie Eilish and Lady Gaga? I love both of them. Am I objectively wrong?
You would have no (developed) taste if you knew and listened ONLY them.
You would have no (developed) taste if you knew and listened ONLY to ANY one or two artists.
....unless it was someone like Frank Zappa!   :biggrin:
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2020, 02:01:46 PM
Is it just Bieber and and Sheeran?

What about Billie Eilish and Lady Gaga? I love both of them. Am I objectively wrong?

You would have no (developed) taste if you knew and listened ONLY them.

You would have no (developed) taste if you knew and listened ONLY to ANY one or two artists.

Yes.

Yes, indeed. Although I am afraid you did not get the point of that comment. Now for the third time, waiting for you to answer whether or not I am a "real music fan" based on what I listen to. By your logic, I am an outlier.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 20, 2020, 02:06:46 PM
My issue is that the conversation has already been decided. No art is objectively good or bad, no artists are objectively good or bad. You can create certain criteria to judge them by, but then it's 100% subjective. So I don't see where the convo can go other than in circles.


Man, how can you say that Miles Davis is not objectively better than Justin Bieber, when there are so many objective arguments for that???
I could accept that music is mostly subjective, but not 100% subjective. If music is 100% subjective then that gives some idiots the right to claim that Bieber is better than Miles Davis.

What's your standard?   It depends entirely on your standard.  Better at what?  If you mean filling stadiums, Beiber blows Davis away.  If you mean influencing other instrumentalists, then Davis.   If the quality of the music is judged by "records sold", Beiber wins again. 
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 20, 2020, 02:09:02 PM
Justin Bieber is definitely better at selling out arenas than Miles Davis was.

Yep. Because he is a very commercial singer/performer today, which music is aimed at kids, mostly girls. But when it comes to actual music fans, he will never get 5% of appreciation that Miles Davis generally has.

What's an actual music fan?  How do you measure that?   I have both Harry Styles solo albums, saw him in concert, and sent his music in roulettes (and likely will again).   I appreciate Davis, and listen to him on occasion, but there are FAR more opportunities for me to put on a Styles record than a Davis record.   Where do I fall on the spectrum?   

Again; STANDARD. 
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 20, 2020, 02:10:23 PM
Justin Bieber is definitely better at selling out arenas than Miles Davis was.

Yep. Because he is a very commercial singer/performer today, which music is aimed at kids, mostly girls. But when it comes to actual music fans, he will never get 5% of appreciation that Miles Davis generally has.

Il bite like a dumbfish, because this could go fantastic places.

WR, what makes a music fan an "actual" music fan then?

Development of personal taste in music.


Got it. What do you mean by development though?

I can see both the music fan and the "actual" music fan listening to music and having personal taste. How does the development - the deal breaker, as it were - part work?

If someone is a youngster who listens only current Top 20 hits he is definitely not gonna DEVELOP a taste in music. If someone is a youngster who saw some list of "greatest albums of all time" and then he decided to take a listen to e.g. "Kind of Blue" or "Abbey Road" or "Ziggy Stardust" he is gonna DEVELOP a taste in music and he will become an actual music fan.

Ok, I get it. Current Top 20 = no development, some GOAT list = development.

What are the criteria for those lists though? Where is the guarantee they're going to suggest development-worthy material?

Music is very similar as literature. If someone read over 200 classics he knows much more about literature than someone who didn't read more than 2 or 3 books in his life. Man who read only 2 or 3 books actually doesn't know s*it about literature.
So if some kid is only listening to current Bieber and Sheeran hits and nothing besides that, then he doesn't know s*it about music.

By your standard though - YOUR STANDARD - if you only listen to Davis (and his progeny) you ALSO don't know shit about music.   I'll give you that "breadth" of knowledge is good, but that's totally independent of the specific music, only the quantity.  (And by the way, don't pat yourself on the back too hard; the easily-purchased CDs/downloads available barely is the tip of the iceberg on the REAL breadth of music).   
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2020, 02:12:40 PM
I feel like Stadler is jumping in the ring and I'm tired and sweating it out after 6 rounds and I want to grab his shoulders and hold him back yelling, "It's not worth it! It's not worth it!!"  :lol
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 20, 2020, 02:13:53 PM
This conversation drives me to drink.  Seriously.   Nothing worse than a music snob.  If it moves you, it moves you.  Full stop. 
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 20, 2020, 02:17:02 PM

What's your standard? 

Artistry, talent and quality of music.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2020, 02:17:35 PM
It's not even just music snobbery, it's plain stupidity and ignorance on so many fronts as well.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 20, 2020, 02:18:09 PM
And you can sit and really listen to the production of it and what went into it and it's pretty outstanding.
Great production doesn't mean jack squat when it comes to Bad Guy. That song is just horrible.  :P
 
 
Is it just Bieber and and Sheeran?

What about Billie Eilish and Lady Gaga? I love both of them. Am I objectively wrong?
You would have no (developed) taste if you knew and listened ONLY them.
You would have no (developed) taste if you knew and listened ONLY to ANY one or two artists.
....unless it was someone like Frank Zappa!   :biggrin:

He is in the "acquired taste" category!
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2020, 02:19:53 PM
Stadler vs WildRanger is like Batman Vs Joker. And I love it!
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 20, 2020, 02:35:48 PM
This conversation drives me to drink.  Seriously.   Nothing worse than a music snob.  If it moves you, it moves you.  Full stop.

Even if it's Justin Bieber? Really?



Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 20, 2020, 02:36:32 PM

What's your standard? 

Artistry, talent and quality of music.

Define that.  Right now, objectively.  Give me a number on "quality of music".   
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 20, 2020, 02:39:02 PM
This conversation drives me to drink.  Seriously.   Nothing worse than a music snob.  If it moves you, it moves you.  Full stop.

Even if it's Justin Bieber? Really?

Of course.  "U Smile" is one of my favorite tunes of all time.  Seriously, no irony.   Beiber is not a great example, because I don't like all his music, but there are other so-called "popular" artists where I do.  I watched Harry Styles (from One Direction) rock the Madison Square Garden - all 22,000 people or however many were there (it was a sold out show) and it was a great evening. 
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: emtee on May 20, 2020, 02:40:14 PM
This conversation drives me to drink.  Seriously.   Nothing worse than a music snob.  If it moves you, it moves you.  Full stop.

Even if it's Justin Bieber? Really?

Why would it matter who it is?

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 20, 2020, 02:44:31 PM
This is now my favourite thread :)
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2020, 02:44:56 PM
This conversation drives me to drink.  Seriously.   Nothing worse than a music snob.  If it moves you, it moves you.  Full stop.

Even if it's Justin Bieber? Really?

EARTH TO WILDRANGER. OTHER PEOPLE LIKE THINGS YOU DON'T LIKE. THEY CAN HAVE OPINIONS TOO
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2020, 02:53:30 PM

What's your standard? 

Artistry, talent and quality of music.

Define that.  Right now, objectively.  Give me a number on "quality of music".

8675309.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: NoseofNicko on May 20, 2020, 03:01:00 PM
Music elitists like WildRanger are so funny.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Indiscipline on May 20, 2020, 03:10:35 PM
Honestly, I haven't read WR putting other people's opinions down. Heck, we're inside a thread where he's asking for our opinions via poll.

Although I don't agree with the portion of his views transpiring in this discussion, I'm genuinely interested in understanding what his reasoning is and where it comes from.

So, Wild Ranger, do you care answering my questions from a couple of pages ago?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2020, 03:15:22 PM
Heck, we're inside a thread where he's asking for our opinions via poll.

(https://i.imgur.com/iQHxT3w.png)
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: emtee on May 20, 2020, 03:15:46 PM

What's your standard? 

Artistry, talent and quality of music.



Define that.  Right now, objectively.  Give me a number on "quality of music".

8675309.

Nicely played Jenny.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 20, 2020, 03:16:19 PM
Honestly, I haven't read WR putting other people's opinions down. Heck, we're inside a thread where he's asking for our opinions via poll.

Although I don't agree with the portion of his views transpiring in this discussion, I'm genuinely interested in understanding what his reasoning is and where it comes from.

I'm kind of in the same boat, but the thing is, this is thread #100 where the exact same thing is happening and part of what makes it so frustrating to 'engage' in discussion with WildRanger is that he just drops some opinion or made up 'fact' without any backup, usually something that's bound to receive the same sort of reactions they get here and then when he's called upon to explain what he means, he just disappears never to answer again. It's kind of fascinating in that sense, but we're also going down the same 'some music is objectively better than other music' bullshit rabbithole that somehow each and every one of his thread turns into, just because of the way he asks his questions.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: KevShmev on May 20, 2020, 03:18:51 PM
Mike Stone is objectively a better guitar player than John Petrucci.

Come at me.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2020, 03:20:22 PM
Mike Stone is objectively a better guitar player than John Petrucci.

Come at me.

I will come at you!

But only to embrace you in a brotherly hug of acceptance and respect!
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2020, 03:21:20 PM
Mike Stone is objectively a better guitar player than John Petrucci.

Come at me.

I will come at you!

But only to embrace you in a brotherly hug of acceptance and respect!

I'm calling the cops. That's not social distancing.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 20, 2020, 03:21:47 PM
Music elitists like WildRanger are so funny.

Wait, if I say Justin Bieber's music is worthless and with no quality and any artistic merit(very common and popular opinion) then it makes me an elitist? Interesting.

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2020, 03:22:41 PM
Music elitists like WildRanger are so funny.

Wait, if I say Justin Bieber's music is worthless and with no quality and any artistic merit(very common and popular opinion) then it makes me an elitist? Interesting.

 :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin

Yes. Yes it does.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2020, 03:23:30 PM
I am reminded of this. (https://youtu.be/48jd-wkvVd4)
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2020, 03:25:15 PM
Mike Stone is objectively a better guitar player than John Petrucci.

Come at me.

I will come at you!

But only to embrace you in a brotherly hug of acceptance and respect!

I'm calling the cops. That's not social distancing.

Don't foil my secret attack!
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Indiscipline on May 20, 2020, 03:25:50 PM
Honestly, I haven't read WR putting other people's opinions down. Heck, we're inside a thread where he's asking for our opinions via poll.

Although I don't agree with the portion of his views transpiring in this discussion, I'm genuinely interested in understanding what his reasoning is and where it comes from.

I'm kind of in the same boat, but the thing is, this is thread #100 where the exact same thing is happening and part of what makes it so frustrating to 'engage' in discussion with WildRanger is that he just drops some opinion or made up 'fact' without any backup, usually something that's bound to receive the same sort of reactions they get here and then when he's called upon to explain what he means, he just disappears never to answer again. It's kind of fascinating in that sense, but we're also going down the same 'some music is objectively better than other music' bullshit rabbithole that somehow each and every one of his thread turns into, just because of the way he asks his questions.

The discussion I am trying to have with WR isn't frustrating at all (for me, at least) so far. I am not interested in changing his mind about the objective / subjective axis. I want to understand the way he comes to his conclusions because it's fascinating. 
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2020, 03:27:19 PM
Honestly, I haven't read WR putting other people's opinions down. Heck, we're inside a thread where he's asking for our opinions via poll.

Although I don't agree with the portion of his views transpiring in this discussion, I'm genuinely interested in understanding what his reasoning is and where it comes from.

I'm kind of in the same boat, but the thing is, this is thread #100 where the exact same thing is happening and part of what makes it so frustrating to 'engage' in discussion with WildRanger is that he just drops some opinion or made up 'fact' without any backup, usually something that's bound to receive the same sort of reactions they get here and then when he's called upon to explain what he means, he just disappears never to answer again. It's kind of fascinating in that sense, but we're also going down the same 'some music is objectively better than other music' bullshit rabbithole that somehow each and every one of his thread turns into, just because of the way he asks his questions.

The discussion I am trying to have with WR isn't frustrating at all (for me, at least) so far. I am not interested in changing his mind about the objective / subjective axis. I want to understand the way he comes to his conclusions because it's fascinating.

I sure hope you're patient and accustomed to disappointment.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 20, 2020, 03:28:32 PM
Honestly, I haven't read WR putting other people's opinions down. Heck, we're inside a thread where he's asking for our opinions via poll.

Although I don't agree with the portion of his views transpiring in this discussion, I'm genuinely interested in understanding what his reasoning is and where it comes from.

I'm kind of in the same boat, but the thing is, this is thread #100 where the exact same thing is happening and part of what makes it so frustrating to 'engage' in discussion with WildRanger is that he just drops some opinion or made up 'fact' without any backup, usually something that's bound to receive the same sort of reactions they get here and then when he's called upon to explain what he means, he just disappears never to answer again. It's kind of fascinating in that sense, but we're also going down the same 'some music is objectively better than other music' bullshit rabbithole that somehow each and every one of his thread turns into, just because of the way he asks his questions.

The discussion I am trying to have with WR isn't frustrating at all (for me, at least) so far. I am not interested in changing his mind about the objective / subjective axis. I want to understand the way he comes to his conclusions because it's fascinating. 

It gets frustrating, because you won't get an answer most likely, as time has proven before. Then we get the next thread about ranking some songs or asking why band X is regarded as good (etc. etc. you get the gist) and the same discussion starts all over again :)
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 20, 2020, 03:29:18 PM
And of course Adami ninja'ed my thoughts exactly but in shorter terminology.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2020, 03:29:28 PM
Indi, you're in for the long haul. Look at what it did to poor Yoda. Even Jedi mind tricks don't work on this evil.

(https://i.imgur.com/8qG4p0j.jpg)
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2020, 03:30:10 PM
And of course Adami ninja'ed my thoughts exactly but in shorter terminology.

Well, my post seems to be the last one on a page, so it'll get ignored lol. So you're good.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Indiscipline on May 20, 2020, 03:31:24 PM

I sure hope you're patient and accustomed to disappointment.

I have been married two times  :D
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: KevShmev on May 20, 2020, 03:32:48 PM
Mike Stone is objectively a better guitar player than John Petrucci.

Come at me.

I will come at you!

But only to embrace you in a brotherly hug of acceptance and respect!

I'm calling the cops. That's not social distancing.

It is if we do the Seinfeld "ass out" hug.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/seinfeld/images/9/9f/The_Pilot_00014.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/340?cb=20111216191710)
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2020, 03:33:03 PM

I sure hope you're patient and accustomed to disappointment.

I have been married two times  :D

(https://static.carthrottle.com/workspace/uploads/posts/2017/01/659b020ea1a90182714571157aa6eb39.jpg)
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2020, 03:34:24 PM
Mike Stone is objectively a better guitar player than John Petrucci.

Come at me.

I will come at you!

But only to embrace you in a brotherly hug of acceptance and respect!

I'm calling the cops. That's not social distancing.

It is if we do the Seinfeld "ass out" hug.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/seinfeld/images/9/9f/The_Pilot_00014.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/340?cb=20111216191710)

 :rollin
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: bosk1 on May 20, 2020, 04:32:58 PM

What's your standard? 

Artistry, talent and quality of music.



Define that.  Right now, objectively.  Give me a number on "quality of music".

8675309.

Nicely played Jenny.
Wasn't she a garden tool?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 08:48:17 AM
Music elitists like WildRanger are so funny.

Wait, if I say Justin Bieber's music is worthless and with no quality and any artistic merit(very common and popular opinion) then it makes me an elitist? Interesting.

Well, I didn't use the word "elitist".  I used the word "snob" and it fits.  It's elevating your personal opinion over someone else's, and that's the definition of "snobbery" (well, one of them).

By the way, "common and popular opinion" is about as worthless as a cinder block for toilet paper.   It's "opinion", so carries zero factual weight.   We can start an entire thread on "popular opinions" that were ultimately shown to be inconsistent with facts.  Here, we only need find a handful of people for whom that music IS of worth, and HAS artistic merit, and you're provably wrong on a factual basis.   You would have to qualify it by reinforcing that it's only your "opinion" and therefore separating it from any objective analysis.   
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 08:49:51 AM

I sure hope you're patient and accustomed to disappointment.

I have been married two times  :D

I've been reading these replies in order, and I swear to god, when I read Adami's post I thought the exact same thing.  ;) :)
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Indiscipline on May 21, 2020, 09:02:12 AM
 :lol

Brothers in arms, sir
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Dream Team on May 21, 2020, 10:33:15 AM
Yes this discussion has been had several times. My input is again, why do people refuse to accept that you can make 2 lists of movies, 1 list of your favorites, the other of the best/well-made movies? I could list Avengers, Terminator 2, Aliens, Jurassic Park etc as my favorite movies to watch but also list 12 Angry Men, Casablanca, etc etc as the best ones I've seen. That's subjective vs objective and not based on someone else's opinion. No one else will acknowledge this?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 21, 2020, 10:36:10 AM
Yes this discussion has been had several times. My input is again, why do people refuse to accept that you can make 2 lists of movies, 1 list of your favorites, the other of the best/well-made movies? I could list Avengers, Terminator 2, Aliens, Jurassic Park etc as my favorite movies to watch but also list 12 Angry Men, Casablanca, etc etc as the best ones I've seen. That's subjective vs objective and not based on someone else's opinion. No one else will acknowledge this?

Yeah, no, that's still subjective. There are a lot of films most people would agree are the best films ever made from a technical perspective, but there is still a great deal of subjectivity even in those. Literally the only thing you can go on is gathering opinions and ranking them that way, but there is no objective measurement even for films. Films are art just like music is. Casablanca might be a legendary film but I think it's a boring slog. Aliens and Jurassic Park aren't entertaining to me although Jurassic Park is an extraordinary technical achievement. Terminator sucks all around. Avengers was awesome for its time but I don't think it has aged well compared with what came after. etc.

You said it yourself: 12 Angry Men, etc. might be the best films YOU'VE seen. But nowhere close for me.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 21, 2020, 10:41:32 AM
Yes this discussion has been had several times. My input is again, why do people refuse to accept that you can make 2 lists of movies, 1 list of your favorites, the other of the best/well-made movies? I could list Avengers, Terminator 2, Aliens, Jurassic Park etc as my favorite movies to watch but also list 12 Angry Men, Casablanca, etc etc as the best ones I've seen. That's subjective vs objective and not based on someone else's opinion. No one else will acknowledge this?

Yeah, no, that's still subjective. There are a lot of films most people would agree are the best films ever made from a technical perspective, but there is still a great deal of subjectivity even in those. Literally the only thing you can go on is gathering opinions and ranking them that way, but there is no objective measurement even for films. Films are art just like music is. Casablanca might be a legendary film but I think it's a boring slog. Aliens and Jurassic Park aren't entertaining to me although Jurassic Park is an extraordinary technical achievement. Terminator sucks all around. Avengers was awesome for its time but I don't think it has aged well compared with what came after. etc.

You said it yourself: 12 Angry Men, etc. might be the best films YOU'VE seen. But nowhere close for me.

Tell me this: Is Iron Maiden objectively better than Godsmack?

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 21, 2020, 10:42:57 AM
Yes this discussion has been had several times. My input is again, why do people refuse to accept that you can make 2 lists of movies, 1 list of your favorites, the other of the best/well-made movies? I could list Avengers, Terminator 2, Aliens, Jurassic Park etc as my favorite movies to watch but also list 12 Angry Men, Casablanca, etc etc as the best ones I've seen. That's subjective vs objective and not based on someone else's opinion. No one else will acknowledge this?

Yeah, no, that's still subjective. There are a lot of films most people would agree are the best films ever made from a technical perspective, but there is still a great deal of subjectivity even in those. Literally the only thing you can go on is gathering opinions and ranking them that way, but there is no objective measurement even for films. Films are art just like music is. Casablanca might be a legendary film but I think it's a boring slog. Aliens and Jurassic Park aren't entertaining to me although Jurassic Park is an extraordinary technical achievement. Terminator sucks all around. Avengers was awesome for its time but I don't think it has aged well compared with what came after. etc.

You said it yourself: 12 Angry Men, etc. might be the best films YOU'VE seen. But nowhere close for me.

Tell me this: Is Iron Maiden objectively better than Godsmack?

No.

Say it with me:

(https://i.imgur.com/R5gEthB.jpg)
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Indiscipline on May 21, 2020, 10:47:48 AM

Questions:

Am I not letting my personal taste be dictated (which negates development) by someone else's personal taste in both instances?

Are we sure I am not limiting my taste's development if I'm neglecting B?

Are we sure the fans/musicians/critics group and the majority buyers group don't overlap somewhere?

What happens to the system when the kid has grown listening to all the right classics and still likes Billie Eilish and Lady Gaga?

Short answers:
1) Nope
2) Nope
3) Probably somewhere they could overlap
4) Then there is nothing wrong with that if he dig/get those classics

Thank you! I really want to fully understand your system.

I'm really interested in the reasoning behind the two nopes, if you have time.

The fourth answer is damn intriguing and spawns other questions:

Is there something wrong if, once I got those classics, I still don't dig them?

What if Bieber and J-Lo become classics one day? After all, once upon a time, The Beatles were mainly a hugely commercial product for "youngsters and girls" and Beethoven was arguably the first "pop star musician". Should we question developments then?

Have you ever loved or disliked a piece of music while oblivious to its ranking in the critics' opinion?

Hey Wild Ranger, are you cool with picking those up?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 21, 2020, 10:58:29 AM

Tell me this: Is Iron Maiden objectively better than Godsmack?



What's the fucking point in asking the same question over and over?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 21, 2020, 10:59:44 AM
And what does 'knowing shit about music' even mean? Do I need to understand the musical qualities of the music, the melodic, harmonic, rhythmic, dynamic and timbral subtleties in the music, or the cultural references in the music, why the music is structured the way it is, or its placement within history and/or society etc. etc. in order to enjoy it?

And while we (read Indiscipline) are at it; would WildRanger be so kind to get back at my question as well?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 11:16:01 AM
Yes this discussion has been had several times. My input is again, why do people refuse to accept that you can make 2 lists of movies, 1 list of your favorites, the other of the best/well-made movies? I could list Avengers, Terminator 2, Aliens, Jurassic Park etc as my favorite movies to watch but also list 12 Angry Men, Casablanca, etc etc as the best ones I've seen. That's subjective vs objective and not based on someone else's opinion. No one else will acknowledge this?

"Objective" means that it is replicable, it is universal, and it is provable.  I won't acknowledge this, at least not on a blanket level, because one would STILL have to "provide" the standard by which the "best" was derived.  Sure, if you say "Favorites; I like these best", and "Best; factored box office for the first year of release", then sure.  I acknowledge.  But too often, "Best" just pushes the subjectivity down a layer.   "I think this is the 'Best' because the script was tight, the directing was unique, and the acting really delivered on the emotion of the story".  Uh, ok.  So did "Naked Gun 33 1/3".   If someone else can't take those standards - tight script, unique directing, and emotional acting - and arrive at the same film every time, it's not objective, no matter how you parse it.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Podaar on May 21, 2020, 11:17:47 AM
Yes this discussion has been had several times. My input is again, why do people refuse to accept that you can make 2 lists of movies, 1 list of your favorites, the other of the best/well-made movies? I could list Avengers, Terminator 2, Aliens, Jurassic Park etc as my favorite movies to watch but also list 12 Angry Men, Casablanca, etc etc as the best ones I've seen. That's subjective vs objective and not based on someone else's opinion. No one else will acknowledge this?

That depends on what definition of objective you are using.

Yes, in the case of your second list, you are attempting to be objective (not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts). However, the other definition (not dependent on the mind for existence; actual) is where art fails the objectivity test. All art is completely reliant on the mind and is by definition subjective.

A majority of expert/popular opinion is still opinion.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 11:28:19 AM
Yes this discussion has been had several times. My input is again, why do people refuse to accept that you can make 2 lists of movies, 1 list of your favorites, the other of the best/well-made movies? I could list Avengers, Terminator 2, Aliens, Jurassic Park etc as my favorite movies to watch but also list 12 Angry Men, Casablanca, etc etc as the best ones I've seen. That's subjective vs objective and not based on someone else's opinion. No one else will acknowledge this?

Yeah, no, that's still subjective. There are a lot of films most people would agree are the best films ever made from a technical perspective, but there is still a great deal of subjectivity even in those. Literally the only thing you can go on is gathering opinions and ranking them that way, but there is no objective measurement even for films. Films are art just like music is. Casablanca might be a legendary film but I think it's a boring slog. Aliens and Jurassic Park aren't entertaining to me although Jurassic Park is an extraordinary technical achievement. Terminator sucks all around. Avengers was awesome for its time but I don't think it has aged well compared with what came after. etc.

You said it yourself: 12 Angry Men, etc. might be the best films YOU'VE seen. But nowhere close for me.

Tell me this: Is Iron Maiden objectively better than Godsmack?

What's your standard?   Number of studio records released? MAIDEN. Number of records sold in the U.S.?  Probably Maiden.  Global?  Maiden.  Number of guitar players?  Maiden.  Debut album sales?   Godsmack.   Lip rings on album covers?  Godsmack. 
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 21, 2020, 11:30:15 AM

Well, I didn't use the word "elitist".  I used the word "snob" and it fits.  It's elevating your personal opinion over someone else's, and that's the definition of "snobbery" (well, one of them).

By the way, "common and popular opinion" is about as worthless as a cinder block for toilet paper.   It's "opinion", so carries zero factual weight.   We can start an entire thread on "popular opinions" that were ultimately shown to be inconsistent with facts.  Here, we only need find a handful of people for whom that music IS of worth, and HAS artistic merit, and you're provably wrong on a factual basis.   You would have to qualify it by reinforcing that it's only your "opinion" and therefore separating it from any objective analysis.


Can't agree with you at all.

Justin Bieber is talentless.
He is just a singer/performer, not an artist. He hasn't one single characteristic of an artist. Compare him to widely appreciated artists as Bowie, Prince, Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson, Bob Marley, Marvin Gaye, Miles Davis, etc. What is he compared to them? Artist? Come on. 
His hits could be written by nearly everyone (including you or me).
Objectively he is one of the most hated singers on this planet, because the masses of people easily recognized his music is garbage.

And I don't think it's just an opinion, it's the truth. "Truth" is a much more appropriate word than "fact".

And now give me an answer: Why are guys as Bowie, Prince, Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson, Bob Marley, Marvin Gaye, Miles Davis so widely appreciated and Justin Bieber doesn't get 1% of their appreciation? Are there REASONS for that? Tell me.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 21, 2020, 11:32:39 AM
Yes this discussion has been had several times. My input is again, why do people refuse to accept that you can make 2 lists of movies, 1 list of your favorites, the other of the best/well-made movies? I could list Avengers, Terminator 2, Aliens, Jurassic Park etc as my favorite movies to watch but also list 12 Angry Men, Casablanca, etc etc as the best ones I've seen. That's subjective vs objective and not based on someone else's opinion. No one else will acknowledge this?

Yeah, no, that's still subjective. There are a lot of films most people would agree are the best films ever made from a technical perspective, but there is still a great deal of subjectivity even in those. Literally the only thing you can go on is gathering opinions and ranking them that way, but there is no objective measurement even for films. Films are art just like music is. Casablanca might be a legendary film but I think it's a boring slog. Aliens and Jurassic Park aren't entertaining to me although Jurassic Park is an extraordinary technical achievement. Terminator sucks all around. Avengers was awesome for its time but I don't think it has aged well compared with what came after. etc.

You said it yourself: 12 Angry Men, etc. might be the best films YOU'VE seen. But nowhere close for me.

Tell me this: Is Iron Maiden objectively better than Godsmack?

What's your standard?   Number of studio records released? MAIDEN. Number of records sold in the U.S.?  Probably Maiden.  Global?  Maiden.  Number of guitar players?  Maiden.  Debut album sales?   Godsmack.   Lip rings on album covers?  Godsmack.

And none of those make any band better. So you can do objective measures, but none of it translates to overall better.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: NoseofNicko on May 21, 2020, 11:36:38 AM

Well, I didn't use the word "elitist".  I used the word "snob" and it fits.  It's elevating your personal opinion over someone else's, and that's the definition of "snobbery" (well, one of them).

By the way, "common and popular opinion" is about as worthless as a cinder block for toilet paper.   It's "opinion", so carries zero factual weight.   We can start an entire thread on "popular opinions" that were ultimately shown to be inconsistent with facts.  Here, we only need find a handful of people for whom that music IS of worth, and HAS artistic merit, and you're provably wrong on a factual basis.   You would have to qualify it by reinforcing that it's only your "opinion" and therefore separating it from any objective analysis.


Can't agree with you at all.

Justin Bieber is talentless.
He is just a singer/performer, not an artist. He hasn't one single characteristic of an artist. Compare him to widely appreciated artists as Bowie, Prince, Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson, Bob Marley, Marvin Gaye, Miles Davis, etc. What is he compared to them? Artist? Come on. 
His hits could be written by nearly everyone (including you or me).
Objectively he is one of the most hated singers on this planet, because the masses of people easily recognized his music is garbage.

And I don't think it's just an opinion, it's the truth. "Truth" is a much more appropriate word than "fact".

And now give me an answer: Why are guys as Bowie, Prince, Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson, Bob Marley, Marvin Gaye, Miles Davis so widely appreciated and Justin Bieber doesn't get 1% of their appreciation? Are there REASONS for that? Tell me.

Justin Bieber gets tons of appreciation. I canít stand his music, but a lot of people love it.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 21, 2020, 11:46:22 AM
Dude's also sold over 7 million albums in 10 years. A one year tour of his had almost 3 million people attend.

Dude seems pretty popular.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 21, 2020, 11:56:56 AM

I'm really interested in the reasoning behind the two nopes, if you have time.

The fourth answer is damn intriguing and spawns other questions:

Is there something wrong if, once I got those classics, I still don't dig them?

What if Bieber and J-Lo become classics one day? After all, once upon a time, The Beatles were mainly a hugely commercial product for "youngsters and girls" and Beethoven was arguably the first "pop star musician". Should we question developments then?

Have you ever loved or disliked a piece of music while oblivious to its ranking in the critics' opinion?

OK.

Is there something wrong if, once I got those classics, I still don't dig them?

I can't know how many classics you could dig. There is a big chance that you would like many of those classics. It's nearly impossible to dislike them all.

What if Bieber and J-Lo become classics one day? After all, once upon a time, The Beatles were mainly a hugely commercial product for "youngsters and girls" and Beethoven was arguably the first "pop star musician". Should we question developments then?

It's not gonna happen. No way. Those famous music stars will never get recognition and appreciation that The Beatles and Beethoven have. The Beatles and Beethoven will always be relevant and remembered, their impact in music history is timeless.

Have you ever loved or disliked a piece of music while oblivious to its ranking in the critics' opinion?

I'm not sure, maybe. I listened a lot of acclaimed classics and I liked nearly all of them.

But I can tell you about painting. Pablo Picasso is one of the most acclaimed painters of all time and I don't like his paintings at all, they look "ugly" to me. But I can't deny their artistic merit. I just can't say his paintings are trash because I don't like them.





 

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 21, 2020, 12:02:32 PM
Dude's also sold over 7 million albums in 10 years. A one year tour of his had almost 3 million people attend.

Dude seems pretty popular.

Also McDonald's food is pretty popular and sold in large amounts. But it can't refute the truth it's unhealthy.

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 12:05:54 PM

Well, I didn't use the word "elitist".  I used the word "snob" and it fits.  It's elevating your personal opinion over someone else's, and that's the definition of "snobbery" (well, one of them).

By the way, "common and popular opinion" is about as worthless as a cinder block for toilet paper.   It's "opinion", so carries zero factual weight.   We can start an entire thread on "popular opinions" that were ultimately shown to be inconsistent with facts.  Here, we only need find a handful of people for whom that music IS of worth, and HAS artistic merit, and you're provably wrong on a factual basis.   You would have to qualify it by reinforcing that it's only your "opinion" and therefore separating it from any objective analysis.


Can't agree with you at all.

Justin Bieber is talentless.
He is just a singer/performer, not an artist. He hasn't one single characteristic of an artist. Compare him to widely appreciated artists as Bowie, Prince, Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson, Bob Marley, Marvin Gaye, Miles Davis, etc. What is he compared to them? Artist? Come on. 
His hits could be written by nearly everyone (including you or me).
Objectively he is one of the most hated singers on this planet, because the masses of people easily recognized his music is garbage.

And I don't think it's just an opinion, it's the truth. "Truth" is a much more appropriate word than "fact".

And now give me an answer: Why are guys as Bowie, Prince, Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson, Bob Marley, Marvin Gaye, Miles Davis so widely appreciated and Justin Bieber doesn't get 1% of their appreciation? Are there REASONS for that? Tell me.

Well, I answer reluctantly because I don't know what you mean by "appreciated".    But, to humor you, assuming it's accurate, it could be simply because their first albums were in 1967, 1978, 1962, 1969/1972, 1965, 1961, and 1951, respectively, as opposed to 2010.  Give us until 2050 and we'll revisit the question.   And maybe, just maybe, that "appreciation" is wrong.  Maybe we SHOULD be appreciating Beiber more.   After all, Miles Davis is a fucking hack.  Has he ever had a #1 record?  Toured stadia?  Sold a million copies of any of his singles?  He doesn't belong in the same conversation as Justin Beiber.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 12:07:50 PM
Yes this discussion has been had several times. My input is again, why do people refuse to accept that you can make 2 lists of movies, 1 list of your favorites, the other of the best/well-made movies? I could list Avengers, Terminator 2, Aliens, Jurassic Park etc as my favorite movies to watch but also list 12 Angry Men, Casablanca, etc etc as the best ones I've seen. That's subjective vs objective and not based on someone else's opinion. No one else will acknowledge this?

Yeah, no, that's still subjective. There are a lot of films most people would agree are the best films ever made from a technical perspective, but there is still a great deal of subjectivity even in those. Literally the only thing you can go on is gathering opinions and ranking them that way, but there is no objective measurement even for films. Films are art just like music is. Casablanca might be a legendary film but I think it's a boring slog. Aliens and Jurassic Park aren't entertaining to me although Jurassic Park is an extraordinary technical achievement. Terminator sucks all around. Avengers was awesome for its time but I don't think it has aged well compared with what came after. etc.

You said it yourself: 12 Angry Men, etc. might be the best films YOU'VE seen. But nowhere close for me.

Tell me this: Is Iron Maiden objectively better than Godsmack?

What's your standard?   Number of studio records released? MAIDEN. Number of records sold in the U.S.?  Probably Maiden.  Global?  Maiden.  Number of guitar players?  Maiden.  Debut album sales?   Godsmack.   Lip rings on album covers?  Godsmack.

And none of those make any band better. So you can do objective measures, but none of it translates to overall better.

Of course it does; "overall better" is just an amalgamation of those individual lists.  If you don't have a repeatable, provable standard, it's all opinion.  Not "truth" or "fact".
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 21, 2020, 12:08:06 PM
Dude's also sold over 7 million albums in 10 years. A one year tour of his had almost 3 million people attend.

Dude seems pretty popular.

Also McDonald's food is pretty popular and sold in large amounts. But it can't refute the truth it's unhealthy.

So is eating paint chips, but that hasn't stopped you.  :lol You are the biggest troll this forum has ever seen, I'd wager
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 12:10:35 PM
It's not gonna happen. No way. Those famous music stars will never get recognition and appreciation that The Beatles and Beethoven have. The Beatles and Beethoven will always be relevant and remembered, their impact in music history is timeless.

But of course, you didn't answer the question.  Unless you can tell the future, in which case, I will immediately agree with you if you give me the lottery numbers for next Wednesday's PowerBall drawing.

Quote
But I can tell you about painting. Pablo Picasso is one of the most acclaimed painters of all time and I don't like his paintings at all, they look "ugly" to me. But I can't deny their artistic merit. I just can't say his paintings are trash because I don't like them.

And yet, you'll do exactly that with Justin Beiber.  Interesting. 
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: NoseofNicko on May 21, 2020, 12:10:45 PM
Heís not a troll. A lot of people actually think like he does. Theyíre young and immature.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 21, 2020, 12:12:23 PM
Heís not a troll. A lot of people actually think like he does. Theyíre young and immature.

The second quoted part of Stadler's last post is exactly why he is a troll. Either that or he's just a bit weak in the upper story. But he can't be that ignorant after all the explanations he's been given, so he has to be a troll.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: pg1067 on May 21, 2020, 12:20:50 PM
Tell me this: Is Iron Maiden objectively better than Godsmack?

Objectively better AT WHAT?

I don't know a damn thing about Godsmack beyond what I'm reading on Wikipedia.  I imagine Maiden has sold more albums, but that shouldn't be surprising given that Maiden has been around a lot longer and has way more albums.

On the other hand, Godsmack appears to have 4 Grammy nominations to zero for Maiden.

Once again, asking whether something is "objectively better than" something else, you have to be clear about the relevant criteria.  As you phrased the question, it is utterly meaningless.


Justin Bieber is talentless.
He is just a singer/performer, not an artist. He hasn't one single characteristic of an artist. Compare him to widely appreciated artists as Bowie, Prince, Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson, Bob Marley, Marvin Gaye, Miles Davis, etc. What is he compared to them? Artist? Come on. 
His hits could be written by nearly everyone (including you or me).
Objectively he is one of the most hated singers on this planet, because the masses of people easily recognized his music is garbage.

And I don't think it's just an opinion, it's the truth.

Oh, for fuck's sake!

Justin Bieber has sole more than 150 million records.  He made a movie that was seen by millions and made millions of dollars in profit.  He is a MASSIVELY popular.  He is a hugely successful business person who has made millions on multiple business ventures.  If he's "talentless" and "objectively . . . one of the most hated singers on this planet," how has that happened?  While he might very well be hated by a lot of folks, it also seems to be an objective fact that he is also one of the most LOVED singers on the planet" (after all, one can be both "most hated" and "most loved").

He's "just a singer/performer, not an artist"?  Well...ok, if you define "artist" not to include "singers," but I think you'd be on that island alone.  Also, (1) Justin Bieber plays multiple instruments, and (2) wasn't Marvin Gaye also "just a singer/performer"?  Do you have to be primarily a player of a musical instrument to be considered an "artist"?  What about Ella Fitzgerald or Billie Holliday?  Were then "just singers/performers, not artists"?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 21, 2020, 12:26:15 PM
Yes this discussion has been had several times. My input is again, why do people refuse to accept that you can make 2 lists of movies, 1 list of your favorites, the other of the best/well-made movies? I could list Avengers, Terminator 2, Aliens, Jurassic Park etc as my favorite movies to watch but also list 12 Angry Men, Casablanca, etc etc as the best ones I've seen. That's subjective vs objective and not based on someone else's opinion. No one else will acknowledge this?

Yeah, no, that's still subjective. There are a lot of films most people would agree are the best films ever made from a technical perspective, but there is still a great deal of subjectivity even in those. Literally the only thing you can go on is gathering opinions and ranking them that way, but there is no objective measurement even for films. Films are art just like music is. Casablanca might be a legendary film but I think it's a boring slog. Aliens and Jurassic Park aren't entertaining to me although Jurassic Park is an extraordinary technical achievement. Terminator sucks all around. Avengers was awesome for its time but I don't think it has aged well compared with what came after. etc.

You said it yourself: 12 Angry Men, etc. might be the best films YOU'VE seen. But nowhere close for me.

Tell me this: Is Iron Maiden objectively better than Godsmack?

What's your standard?   Number of studio records released? MAIDEN. Number of records sold in the U.S.?  Probably Maiden.  Global?  Maiden.  Number of guitar players?  Maiden.  Debut album sales?   Godsmack.   Lip rings on album covers?  Godsmack.

And none of those make any band better. So you can do objective measures, but none of it translates to overall better.

Of course it does; "overall better" is just an amalgamation of those individual lists.  If you don't have a repeatable, provable standard, it's all opinion.  Not "truth" or "fact".

Overall better only means those things if you decide that. By itself, it doesn't mean anything specific.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 12:27:40 PM
No talent at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY3tzNUjoHc
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 21, 2020, 12:29:27 PM

And yet, you'll do exactly that with Justin Beiber.  Interesting.

But, man, JB is not as acclaimed as Picasso. And he will never be.

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 21, 2020, 12:39:41 PM

On the other hand, Godsmack appears to have 4 Grammy nominations to zero for Maiden.


Because those people who have given them Grammy awards are idiots. They don't care for music as art form, they only care for commerce and making money.



Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Indiscipline on May 21, 2020, 12:40:41 PM
WR, thanks for responding to my questions, even though I feel you haven't provided substantial answers.

I gather you articulate your musical system of beliefs in "Truths", in the same vein a pious individual does with religion, so to speak.

This leaves me with one final question: if you deal in absolute truths, why are you polling our opinions on songs and artists?

I see two options here: either

A) You are secretly questioning your Religion of Objectiveness and - akin to a tired serial killer who unconsciously drops self-incriminating hints because he wants to get caught - a part of you is begging us pagans to liberate you and allow you to enjoy music without guilt

Or

B) You want to convert us.



A) is focking electrifying and I'm all for it, B) is no, thanks.

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: pg1067 on May 21, 2020, 12:53:07 PM

And yet, you'll do exactly that with Justin Beiber.  Interesting.

But, man, JB is not as acclaimed as Picasso. And he will never be.

Come back in 50 years and we can discuss this intelligently.



On the other hand, Godsmack appears to have 4 Grammy nominations to zero for Maiden.


Because those people who have given them Grammy awards are idiots. They don't care for music as art form, they only care for commerce and making money.

Are you ignorant that a Grammy nomination and a Grammy award are not the same thing?

The same "idiots" who nominated Godsmack in 2002 for best rock instrumental gave the actual award to Jeff Beck.  Are they still idiots?

The same "idiots" who nominated Godsmack in 2003 for best rock song gave the actual award to Bruce Springsteen.  Are they still idiots?

Etc., etc.


Also, you continue to miss the point -- a point which is so obvious to anyone of reasonable intelligence that I can only assume you're being intentionally obtuse:  If the criteria for "objectively better" is "who had more Grammy nominations," IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER that you or anyone else SUBJECTIVELY thinks that the artist wasn't "deserving" of the nomination.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 21, 2020, 12:53:37 PM
Trolls? In your forum? It's more likely than you think!
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: pg1067 on May 21, 2020, 12:55:22 PM
Can you seriously claim that Stadler isn't an objectively better contributor to DTF than WildRanger?



....



Wait for it...



...


NO, YOU CANNOT!!!
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 21, 2020, 12:57:35 PM

This leaves me with one final question: if you deal in absolute truths, why are you polling our opinions on songs and artists?


Because people on this board are actual music fans who developed taste in music and not casual listeners who are following current fashion trends and listening to only current commercial hits.

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Indiscipline on May 21, 2020, 12:59:35 PM

This leaves me with one final question: if you deal in absolute truths, why are you polling our opinions on songs and artists?


Because people on this board are actual music fans who developed taste in music and not casual listeners who are following current fashion trends and listening to only current commercial hits.



But we are all so obscenely subjective! How do you concile that with the Truth? Aren't we True people?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 21, 2020, 01:00:36 PM

This leaves me with one final question: if you deal in absolute truths, why are you polling our opinions on songs and artists?


Because people on this board are actual music fans who developed taste in music and not casual listeners who are following current fashion trends and listening to only current commercial hits.

Back, elitist troll! The dark fire will not avail you, flame of UdŻn. Go back to the Shadow! You shall not pass!
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 21, 2020, 01:20:59 PM
And I will quote the correct statement that one member from DTF said in one of "subjective vs. objective" discussions. It could be useful.

Do you know what car I personally LOVE?   I wish I had one, but I don't.  But I want one someday.

A Chrysler PT Cruiser.   I think that car is SOOO cool looking.   

My car expert friends roll their eyes, and tell me I'm nuts, and that it's a crappy car.    But I actually think THEY are right.  Because I don't place my opinion on the same level as theirs.   I like the PT Cruiser better than better cars, but I'm open about the fact that I'm a dumbass when it comes to cars.   And that's all OK.  There's nothing wrong with saying, "I like Nickelback, even though I know that they actually suck.   I know there are people out there who know more about music than I do, and their opinions on music are more valid than mine BECAUSE they care more about it than I do.   I care more about GOLF (or insert whatever field of study you want) than they do, so if they ever want golf advice, I'll be there for them, and if I ever want to know more about music, they will be there for me."
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 01:34:05 PM
Can you seriously claim that Stadler isn't an objectively better contributor to DTF than WildRanger?



....



Wait for it...



...


NO, YOU CANNOT!!!

Yeah!   You said it!   Wait...


Wut?

 :loser:
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 01:39:31 PM

This leaves me with one final question: if you deal in absolute truths, why are you polling our opinions on songs and artists?


Because people on this board are actual music fans who developed taste in music and not casual listeners who are following current fashion trends and listening to only current commercial hits.

Are you sure?  The last song I listened to all the way through was... wait for it... "Watermelon Sugar" by Harry Styles (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E07s5ZYygMg). 
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 21, 2020, 01:41:10 PM
And I will quote the correct statement that one member from DTF said in one of "subjective vs. objective" discussions. It could be useful.

Do you know what car I personally LOVE?   I wish I had one, but I don't.  But I want one someday.

A Chrysler PT Cruiser.   I think that car is SOOO cool looking.   

My car expert friends roll their eyes, and tell me I'm nuts, and that it's a crappy car.    But I actually think THEY are right.  Because I don't place my opinion on the same level as theirs.   I like the PT Cruiser better than better cars, but I'm open about the fact that I'm a dumbass when it comes to cars.   And that's all OK.  There's nothing wrong with saying, "I like Nickelback, even though I know that they actually suck.   I know there are people out there who know more about music than I do, and their opinions on music are more valid than mine BECAUSE they care more about it than I do.   I care more about GOLF (or insert whatever field of study you want) than they do, so if they ever want golf advice, I'll be there for them, and if I ever want to know more about music, they will be there for me."


You REALLY don't understand the point, my friend. Sorry. 
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 21, 2020, 01:44:16 PM
After all, Miles Davis is a fucking hack.  Has he ever had a #1 record?  Toured stadia?  Sold a million copies of any of his singles?  He doesn't belong in the same conversation as Justin Beiber.

Do you realize that Miles Davis has created his music in different time when the music industry was not ruled by some greedy, idiotic powerful motherfuckers as its case today? Miles Davis hasn't given a fuck about fucking commercial success. That's one of reasons why he is so respected as an ARTIST! Do you get that?







Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 21, 2020, 01:48:51 PM
I love you all so much.

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 21, 2020, 01:49:59 PM
I picked the wrong month to stop smoking weed.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 21, 2020, 01:57:54 PM

Yeah, no, that's still subjective. There are a lot of films most people would agree are the best films ever made from a technical perspective, but there is still a great deal of subjectivity even in those. Literally the only thing you can go on is gathering opinions and ranking them that way, but there is no objective measurement even for films. Films are art just like music is. Casablanca might be a legendary film but I think it's a boring slog. Aliens and Jurassic Park aren't entertaining to me although Jurassic Park is an extraordinary technical achievement. Terminator sucks all around. Avengers was awesome for its time but I don't think it has aged well compared with what came after. etc.

You said it yourself: 12 Angry Men, etc. might be the best films YOU'VE seen. But nowhere close for me.

Is "The Godfather" objectively great?

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Indiscipline on May 21, 2020, 02:00:08 PM
After all, Miles Davis is a fucking hack.  Has he ever had a #1 record?  Toured stadia?  Sold a million copies of any of his singles?  He doesn't belong in the same conversation as Justin Beiber.

Do you realize that Miles Davis has created his music in different time when the music industry was not ruled by some greedy, idiotic powerful motherfuckers as its case today? Miles Davis hasn't given a fuck about fucking commercial success. That's one of reasons why he is so respected as an ARTIST! Do you get that?

Miles Davis - Bitches Brew, Columbia Records (1970)
Tony Bennett - Tony Sings the Great Hits of Today!, Columbia Records (1970)

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 21, 2020, 02:01:09 PM

Yeah, no, that's still subjective. There are a lot of films most people would agree are the best films ever made from a technical perspective, but there is still a great deal of subjectivity even in those. Literally the only thing you can go on is gathering opinions and ranking them that way, but there is no objective measurement even for films. Films are art just like music is. Casablanca might be a legendary film but I think it's a boring slog. Aliens and Jurassic Park aren't entertaining to me although Jurassic Park is an extraordinary technical achievement. Terminator sucks all around. Avengers was awesome for its time but I don't think it has aged well compared with what came after. etc.

You said it yourself: 12 Angry Men, etc. might be the best films YOU'VE seen. But nowhere close for me.

Is "The Godfather" objectively great?

(https://miro.medium.com/max/1240/1*MI6MyiERSjPzPbXSjmgqbw.jpeg)
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Skeever on May 21, 2020, 02:07:44 PM
It stinks. Dylan version is the best version, the idea that people can't stand Dylan's vocals but like Axl's is pretty funny to me. Different strokes I guess!
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 21, 2020, 02:11:03 PM
It stinks. Dylan version is the best version, the idea that people can't stand Dylan's vocals but like Axl's is pretty funny to me. Different strokes I guess!

Whoa, stay on topic, please.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 21, 2020, 02:14:06 PM
Donít go and bullshit about Miles Davis, who explicitly dropped the bebop, modal jazz etc. etc. to cocreate the first wave of fusion and drawing in lots of contemporary pop music into jazz, essentially trying to bring jazz to a wider audience. He was a great innovator, absolutely, but donít let that distract you from the fact that he indeed wanted to be heard. And he succeeded, for the 70s and 80s were his most commercially succesful period.

But what does it matter that Iím typing this.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 21, 2020, 02:14:36 PM
It stinks. Dylan version is the best version, the idea that people can't stand Dylan's vocals but like Axl's is pretty funny to me. Different strokes I guess!

Whoa, stay on topic, please.

:lol :lol :lol
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: bosk1 on May 21, 2020, 02:26:26 PM
After all, Miles Davis is a fucking hack.  Has he ever had a #1 record?  Toured stadia?  Sold a million copies of any of his singles?  He doesn't belong in the same conversation as Justin Beiber.

Do you realize that Miles Davis has created his music in different time when the music industry was not ruled by some greedy, idiotic powerful motherfuckers as its case today? Miles Davis hasn't given a fuck about fucking commercial success. That's one of reasons why he is so respected as an ARTIST! Do you get that?

Yeah, pretty much every word of that is demonstrably false.  :rollin  You really have earned yourself zero credibility when it comes to discussing music here.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: emtee on May 21, 2020, 02:33:57 PM
I'm really uncomfortable ganging up on the poor dude. He just sees things differently than most of us.

Reminds me of a chap we used to have at mp.com. Seventh. Sometimes I wonder if WR is related. Maybe the 7th son of Seventh's sons.

Anyhoo--continuing the discussion is pointless. This is objectively true.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 21, 2020, 02:34:29 PM
He doesn't "see things differently," he's a blatant troll, more obvious now than ever
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: emtee on May 21, 2020, 02:36:09 PM
He doesn't "see things differently," he's a blatant troll, more obvious now than ever

In a way, but I think he truly believes his arguments and reasoning are logical.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 21, 2020, 02:57:31 PM

Justin Bieber gets tons of appreciation. I canít stand his music, but a lot of people love it.

He is nowhere near as appreciated and acclaimed as i.e. Kanye West. Justin Bieber doesn't have something like "My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy" in his catalog.

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Skeever on May 21, 2020, 03:01:08 PM
I'd rather listen to Beiber than Axl. Just don't get the appeal of GnR at all.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: TAC on May 21, 2020, 03:05:01 PM

Justin Bieber gets tons of appreciation. I canít stand his music, but a lot of people love it.

He is nowhere near as appreciated and acclaimed as i.e. Kanye West. Justin Bieber doesn't have something like "My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy" in his catalog.

Whatever the hell that is.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Vmadera00 on May 21, 2020, 03:05:39 PM
It stinks. Dylan version is the best version, the idea that people can't stand Dylan's vocals but like Axl's is pretty funny to me. Different strokes I guess!

Whoa, stay on topic, please.

 :lol :lol That actually made me laugh
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: NoseofNicko on May 21, 2020, 03:16:50 PM

Justin Bieber gets tons of appreciation. I canít stand his music, but a lot of people love it.

He is nowhere near as appreciated and acclaimed as i.e. Kanye West. Justin Bieber doesn't have something like "My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy" in his catalog.

Whatever the hell that is.

Just one of the most critically and publicly acclaimed albums of the last decade.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 21, 2020, 03:22:57 PM
Perhaps when Bieber matures into a gay fish himself, he, too, will enter the WildRanger Pantheon of Artistic Greatness
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Zantera on May 21, 2020, 03:33:26 PM
JLB retires from singing and Bieber joins DT as new lead singer cause apparently he's a huge fan and has 20 vinyl copies of Systematic Chaos at home that shaped his music career.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 21, 2020, 03:40:08 PM

Justin Bieber gets tons of appreciation. I canít stand his music, but a lot of people love it.

He is nowhere near as appreciated and acclaimed as i.e. Kanye West. Justin Bieber doesn't have something like "My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy" in his catalog.

Whatever the hell that is.

Just one of the most critically and publicly acclaimed albums of the last decade.

Along with Kendrick Lamar's "To Pimp a Butterfly".
And David Bowie's "Blackstar"is not far behind.

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: KevShmev on May 21, 2020, 03:41:19 PM

Just one of the most critically and publicly acclaimed albums of the last decade.

Not to jump in the middle of this pillow fight, but being critically acclaimed means jack squat.

Carry on... :P
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: NoseofNicko on May 21, 2020, 03:42:42 PM

Just one of the most critically and publicly acclaimed albums of the last decade.

Not to jump in the middle of this pillow fight, but being critically acclaimed means jack squat.

Carry on... :P

My point was just because you havenít heard of something doesnít mean itís not well known, acclaimed or significant.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: pg1067 on May 21, 2020, 06:17:18 PM
I picked the wrong month to stop smoking weed.

(https://i.imgflip.com/2zfikc.jpg)


Yeah, pretty much every word of that is demonstrably false.  :rollin  You really have earned yourself zero credibility when it comes to discussing music here.

(https://i.imgflip.com/1x6i5.jpg)
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 22, 2020, 03:02:12 AM
I and one my friend had a conversation about taste in music. And we agreed there is no good or bad taste, but someone either has a taste or not.
He said his wife shares only 20% musical interests with him, but she HAS A TASTE, she is good when it comes to recognizing what is quality music and what is garbage music.






Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 22, 2020, 03:40:56 AM
Tell me this: Is Iron Maiden objectively better than Godsmack?

Objectively better AT WHAT?

I don't know a damn thing about Godsmack beyond what I'm reading on Wikipedia.  I imagine Maiden has sold more albums, but that shouldn't be surprising given that Maiden has been around a lot longer and has way more albums.

On the other hand, Godsmack appears to have 4 Grammy nominations to zero for Maiden.

Once again, asking whether something is "objectively better than" something else, you have to be clear about the relevant criteria.  As you phrased the question, it is utterly meaningless.


Justin Bieber is talentless.
He is just a singer/performer, not an artist. He hasn't one single characteristic of an artist. Compare him to widely appreciated artists as Bowie, Prince, Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson, Bob Marley, Marvin Gaye, Miles Davis, etc. What is he compared to them? Artist? Come on. 
His hits could be written by nearly everyone (including you or me).
Objectively he is one of the most hated singers on this planet, because the masses of people easily recognized his music is garbage.

And I don't think it's just an opinion, it's the truth.

Oh, for fuck's sake!

Justin Bieber has sole more than 150 million records.  He made a movie that was seen by millions and made millions of dollars in profit.  He is a MASSIVELY popular.  He is a hugely successful business person who has made millions on multiple business ventures.  If he's "talentless" and "objectively . . . one of the most hated singers on this planet," how has that happened?  While he might very well be hated by a lot of folks, it also seems to be an objective fact that he is also one of the most LOVED singers on the planet" (after all, one can be both "most hated" and "most loved").

He's "just a singer/performer, not an artist"?  Well...ok, if you define "artist" not to include "singers," but I think you'd be on that island alone.  Also, (1) Justin Bieber plays multiple instruments, and (2) wasn't Marvin Gaye also "just a singer/performer"?  Do you have to be primarily a player of a musical instrument to be considered an "artist"?  What about Ella Fitzgerald or Billie Holliday?  Were then "just singers/performers, not artists"?

Give me your opinion on this.

In one facebook rock fans group someone posted this question: "Name a better 3 musician band than Rush, if you can" and one guy responded with a big list of trio bands including Blink 182 and Green Day.
Even if someone is a big Rush hater I don't get how he can have an opinion that Blink 182 and Green Day are a 'better 3 musician bands' than Rush. That was a big insult to Rush.
His statement was absurd and wrong. Who in their right mind could claim something like that. LMAO

How would you react if someone tells you that Blink 182 and Green Day are better than Rush? Would you get into argument with that guy?


Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Train of Naught on May 22, 2020, 04:32:46 AM
Calm down man, not everyone thinks Rush is as great as you do :lol
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 22, 2020, 06:45:08 AM
Give me your opinion on this.

In one facebook rock fans group someone posted this question: "Name a better 3 musician band than Rush, if you can" and one guy responded with a big list of trio bands including Blink 182 and Green Day.
Even if someone is a big Rush hater I don't get how he can have an opinion that Blink 182 and Green Day are a 'better 3 musician bands' than Rush. That was a big insult to Rush.

His statement was absurd and wrong. Who in their right mind could claim something like that. LMAO

How would you react if someone tells you that Blink 182 and Green Day are better than Rush? Would you get into argument with that guy?

No, I would not get into an argument with someone, because it's pointless and leads nowhere. Yes, we can probably all instinctively agree that the three Rush-guys are more proficient on their instruments than those in the bands you mentioned, but does it fucking matter? The question asked, as written by you, asked for a 'better band'. What's 'better' to this guy responding with 'Blink 182' and 'Green Day' (probably because this persons enjoys these bands' music more!) is apparently different from your idea of 'better'. Get over it, it doesn't matter one bit.

---

And here's what I think is the most important part that you got wrong:

You claim the statement is 'absurd' and 'wrong', but I'd like to counter that with the following: The question asked is absurd and wrong, which is EXACTLY why it leads to these kind of answers, as has been said time and time again in this thread and in other threads of yours.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 22, 2020, 06:49:16 AM
Green Day has a couple albums I like way more than several Rush albums.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 22, 2020, 07:09:06 AM
I'd like to commend WildRanger for actually engaging in this thread more, I think, than any other he has ever made.

Even if he's not answering most people's posts to him and just keeps putting a variation of the same post over and over.

"Wait, so if someone says X is better than Y, you'd be okay with that?!?!"
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 22, 2020, 07:15:29 AM
Give me your opinion on this.

In one facebook rock fans group someone posted this question: "Name a better 3 musician band than Rush, if you can" and one guy responded with a big list of trio bands including Blink 182 and Green Day.
Even if someone is a big Rush hater I don't get how he can have an opinion that Blink 182 and Green Day are a 'better 3 musician bands' than Rush. That was a big insult to Rush.

His statement was absurd and wrong. Who in their right mind could claim something like that. LMAO

How would you react if someone tells you that Blink 182 and Green Day are better than Rush? Would you get into argument with that guy?

No, I would not get into an argument with someone, because it's pointless and leads nowhere. Yes, we can probably all instinctively agree that the three Rush-guys are more proficient on their instruments than those in the bands you mentioned, but does it fucking matter? The question asked, as written by you, asked for a 'better band'. What's 'better' to this guy responding with 'Blink 182' and 'Green Day' (probably because this persons enjoys these bands' music more!) is apparently different from your idea of 'better'. Get over it, it doesn't matter one bit.

---

And here's what I think is the most important part that you got wrong:

You claim the statement is 'absurd' and 'wrong', but I'd like to counter that with the following: The question asked is absurd and wrong, which is EXACTLY why it leads to these kind of answers, as has been said time and time again in this thread and in other threads of yours.

Rush make music that is on a much higher musical level than Green Day and Blink 182, so there is more quality to their music. Who can deny it and how? Compare Basket Case and Xanadu? What's musically superior? Which song takes much more personal talent and creative effort to be written and performed? If someone prefers Basket Case to Xanadu, it doesn't matter, it won't change the truth that Xanadu is a musically superior song by a wide margin.

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 22, 2020, 07:25:07 AM
Calm down man, not everyone thinks Rush is as great as you do :lol

It's not the point whether someone thinks Rush is as great as I do. The point is that if you say Blink 182 is better than Rush it shows that you have zero appreciation for Rush.
Someone doesn't have to like Rush music and it's OK, but every normal music fan should APPRECIATE or RESPECT them. If you say Rush is crap, it means you don't respect them at all.

I'm not a fan of Bob Dylan's music apart from a few tunes, but respect the hell out of him as a music artist.






Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 22, 2020, 07:26:34 AM
I'm not a smart man, but I know what trolling is.

we know
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 22, 2020, 07:27:03 AM
Blink 182 is definitely better than Rush.


I feel confident saying that since we can define better however we want.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Indiscipline on May 22, 2020, 07:30:39 AM
Xanadu is a more complex song than Basket Case; is it your opinion a more complex song is inherently a musically superior song?

Not arguing. Still trying to understand your reasoning while the thread is still peaceful.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 22, 2020, 07:35:50 AM
Rush make music that is on a much higher musical level than Green Day and Blink 182, so there is more quality to their music. Who can deny it and how?

What is a 'higher musical level'?
More notes played? More instruments used in a song? More use of the word 'Xanadu'? Longer composition? Usage of odd-time signatures?
Define 'higher musical level', please, or I won't take that question seriously at all.

Following 'higher musical level' -> 'more quality'. Again, this does not follow up.

I can deny it, because it's a fucking stupid question to ask.

Compare Basket Case and Xanadu? What's musically superior? Which song takes much more personal talent and creative effort to be written and performed?

Why the arbitrary choice of these two songs?
Ask yourself the same questions two define 'musically superior' next.

What is 'personal talent'? What is 'creative effort'? Can that be defined or quantised?

I'm quite confident that if Green Day would play 'Xanadu' it wouldn't sound well, but I'm also pretty sure that if Rush were to play 'Basket Case' it wouldn't be convincing at all either.

If someone prefers Basket Case to Xanadu, it doesn't matter, it won't change the truth that Xanadu is a musically superior song by a wide margin.

What 'truth'?
What 'wide margin'? How are you even defining the 'margin', when you've only compared them in bullshit terms stemming from your own subjective opinion?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 22, 2020, 07:38:15 AM
Xanadu is a more complex song than Basket Case; is it your opinion a more complex song is inherently a musically superior song?


In most cases, yep. Because more complex songs take much more talent and creative effort, as I said.



Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Train of Naught on May 22, 2020, 07:38:53 AM
Calm down man, not everyone thinks Rush is as great as you do :lol

It-
ok zoomer
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: emtee on May 22, 2020, 07:41:13 AM
The hurdle here, which we can't get past, is that WR doesn't grasp the concept of subjectivity and therefore he continues to make the exact same argument using different bands/artists. At this juncture the conversation can't move forward.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 22, 2020, 07:43:55 AM
Xanadu is a more complex song than Basket Case; is it your opinion a more complex song is inherently a musically superior song?


In most cases, yep. Because more complex songs take much more talent and creative effort, as I said.

Wild, wild Rangers
Couldn't troll me all day
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 22, 2020, 07:48:54 AM
The hurdle here, which we can't get past, is that WR doesn't grasp the concept of subjectivity and therefore he continues to make the exact same argument using different bands/artists. At this juncture the conversation can't move forward.

OK. Many people on this board think (good and bad) music is 100% subjective and I disagree with them. I'm entitled to it. They can't convince me that music is 100% subjective nor I can't convince them that music is not 100% subjective either.
Case closed.

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Indiscipline on May 22, 2020, 07:49:16 AM
Xanadu is a more complex song than Basket Case; is it your opinion a more complex song is inherently a musically superior song?


In most cases, yep. Because more complex songs take much more talent and creative effort, as I said.

Thank you! As long as you realise that's your opinion - not the Truth - I'm going to respect the hell out of it, even if I vehemently disagree; I won't even question your competence or education in the matter. Give us the same respect - i.e. keep polling and asking questions, but give up the "you're no true music fan" nonsense - and we're definitely cool.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: emtee on May 22, 2020, 07:54:42 AM
The hurdle here, which we can't get past, is that WR doesn't grasp the concept of subjectivity and therefore he continues to make the exact same argument using different bands/artists. At this juncture the conversation can't move forward.

OK. Many people on this board think (good and bad) music is 100% subjective and I disagree with them. I'm entitled to it. They can't convince me that music is 100% subjective nor I can't convince them that music is not 100% subjective either.
Case closed.

Yes indeed. You're entitled to your opinion. However, since you have posted many similar threads and covered your stance and beliefs about music, there isn't any point in doing it again...right? We know where you stand and you know where most of us stand. Jury dismissed.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 22, 2020, 07:55:48 AM
The hurdle here, which we can't get past, is that WR doesn't grasp the concept of subjectivity and therefore he continues to make the exact same argument using different bands/artists. At this juncture the conversation can't move forward.

OK. Many people on this board think (good and bad) music is 100% subjective and I disagree with them. I'm entitled to it. They can't convince me that music is 100% subjective nor I can't convince them that music is not 100% subjective either.
Case closed.

That's not how it works. You don't get to create your own reality, troll
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: max_security on May 22, 2020, 07:58:08 AM
The original tune is awful. The remake didn't help it out at all , just a slightly better version of a horrible song. Talent - wise , tonal quality , man it's just bad from any angle. Why so much discussion of this pos ?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 22, 2020, 08:01:10 AM
The original tune is awful. The remake didn't help it out at all , just a slightly better version of a horrible song. Talent - wise , tonal quality , man it's just bad from any angle. Why so much discussion of this pos ?

I think you'll find very little discussion of the song in this thread. Please stay on topic. :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 22, 2020, 08:01:29 AM
OK. Many people on this board think (good and bad) music is 100% subjective and

Why the need to add the 'good and bad'?

Me excluded, by the way.

I disagree with them. I'm entitled to it.

Ok.

They can't convince me that music is 100% subjective nor I can't convince them that music is not 100% subjective either.

That was, for me personally, not the point, but since I'm not getting any responses from you whatsoever for all the questions I asked, I doubt it matters. It appears as if you're not open for discussion, especially if you say you can't be 'convinced' either way.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: max_security on May 22, 2020, 08:08:23 AM
The original tune is awful. The remake didn't help it out at all , just a slightly better version of a horrible song. Talent - wise , tonal quality , man it's just bad from any angle. Why so much discussion of this pos ?

I think you'll find very little discussion of the song in this thread. Please stay on topic. :neverusethis:

lol. You are right , I just saw the number of pages and the title .

WR is always poking to find some sore spots so I guess he is getting poked back. But music is just not subjective , there has to be a level to say that someone is a professional musician or not. The real world doesn't play by that rule , but I and some others do. GNR never met my requirements , and Dylan too for that matter. There are some great players out there and my / our effort is best to support them. F the rest of them.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 22, 2020, 08:10:17 AM
The original tune is awful. The remake didn't help it out at all , just a slightly better version of a horrible song. Talent - wise , tonal quality , man it's just bad from any angle. Why so much discussion of this pos ?

I think you'll find very little discussion of the song in this thread. Please stay on topic. :neverusethis:

lol. You are right , I just saw the number of pages and the title .

WR is always poking to find some sore spots so I guess he is getting poked back. But music is just not subjective , there has to be a level to say that someone is a professional musician or not. The real world doesn't play by that rule , but I and some others do. GNR never met my credentials , and Dylan too for that matter. There are some great players out there and my / our effort is best to support them. F the rest of them.

"Professional" musician is just a title that means it is more than a hobby, it is something they get paid to do or made a career out of. That's it. Profession = paid occupation. Take away societal constructs of jobs and currency and it is meaningless. In that regard, a "professional" can be objectively measured, but the quality of music, or that one group is "better" than another because one person thinks one group is trash and the other is great, is not. Guns N' Roses, whether you like them or not, are professional musicians. Me playing classical piano in my bedroom is not professional, regardless of whether or not Mozart's piano sonatas are considered a higher art form than singing about where the grass is green and the girls are pretty.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Podaar on May 22, 2020, 08:18:36 AM
But music is just not subjective...

Yes, but the level to which a person (or persons) appreciate/dislike it is (subjective). Of course you can build criteria for level of skill to perform certain musical tasks. The ability to meet those skills can be measured and called facts (objectivity), but that in no way automatically means it is good or bad. Likewise, it doesn't follow that a person who likes less complicated (less skillfully executed) music isn't a "real music fan." That's what folks are pushing back on.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: max_security on May 22, 2020, 08:20:37 AM
The original tune is awful. The remake didn't help it out at all , just a slightly better version of a horrible song. Talent - wise , tonal quality , man it's just bad from any angle. Why so much discussion of this pos ?

I think you'll find very little discussion of the song in this thread. Please stay on topic. :neverusethis:

damn I had a heck of a reply typed . ?



That is the PC version. Back in the day it was " feel " , and " shredders " had no " feel ". The level of musicianship at a period of time should determine if someone is " FIT " to be offered public airplay. How many Black Crows and Nicklebacks do we have to endure and sort through to find a decent guitar solo ? It's one of those " there ought to be a law " arguments I know , but I speak out against bullshit music when I can. And GNR was a slap in the face from the record industry at the time . The hair / glam was one thing and GNR took it up a few notches.

lol. You are right , I just saw the number of pages and the title .

WR is always poking to find some sore spots so I guess he is getting poked back. But music is just not subjective , there has to be a level to say that someone is a professional musician or not. The real world doesn't play by that rule , but I and some others do. GNR never met my credentials , and Dylan too for that matter. There are some great players out there and my / our effort is best to support them. F the rest of them.

"Professional" musician is just a title that means it is more than a hobby, it is something they get paid to do or made a career out of. That's it. Take away societal constructs of jobs and currency and it is meaningless. In that regard, a "professional" can be objectively measured, but the quality of music, or that one group is "better" than another because one person thinks one group is trash and the other is great, is not. Guns N' Roses, whether you like them or not, are professional musicians. Me playing classical piano in my bedroom is not professional, regardless of whether or not Mozart's piano sonatas are considered a higher art form than singing about where the grass is green and the girls are pretty.





That is the PC version. Back in the day it was " feel " , and " shredders " had no " feel ". The level of musicianship at a period of time should determine if someone is " FIT " to be offered public airplay. How many Black Crows and Nicklebacks do we have to endure and sort through to find a decent guitar solo ? It's one of those " there ought to be a law " arguments I know , but I speak out against bullshit music when I can. And GNR was a slap in the face from the record industry at the time . The hair / glam was one thing and GNR took it up a few notches.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 22, 2020, 08:23:11 AM
Thanks for replying, max. But right there you illustrate the same problem we're having with WildRanger. What if someone thinks Black Crows and Nickelback have decent solos? What if someone likes the guitar solo in Nirvana's Smells Like Teen Spirit even though a lot of metalheads shit on it? It's all subjective. Black Crows and Nickelback are still professional musicians, and, dare I say, make a better living than a lot of technically-obsessed progressive metal artists who can shred. Shredding is cool, but it doesn't matter much if it doesn't connect with people. And, as sad as it makes some people, technicality isn't at the front of most music fans' minds. They want music that makes them feel, and as much as metalheads don't like hearing it, shredding doesn't invoke much emotion for most people.

Also, not really sure what is 'PC' about what I wrote. That's confusing. Nothing here is being sugarcoated with political correctness.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: max_security on May 22, 2020, 08:29:05 AM
Thanks for replying, max. But right there you illustrate the same problem we're having with WildRanger. What if someone thinks Black Crows and Nickelback have decent solos? What if someone likes the guitar solo in Nirvana's Smells Like Teen Spirit even though a lot of metalheads shit on it? It's all subjective. Black Crows and Nickelback are still professional musicians, and, dare I say, make a better living than a lot of technically-obsessed progressive metal artists who can shred. Shredding is cool, but it doesn't matter much if it doesn't connect with people. And, as sad as it make people, technicality isn't at the front of most music fans' minds. They want music that makes them feel, and as much as metalheads don't like hearing it, shredding doesn't invoke much emotion for most people.

Also, not really sure what is 'PC' about what I wrote. That's confusing. Nothing here is being sugarcoated with political correctness.

Understood. , the problem is ( was ) the outlet ( record industry ). The cool thing about today is that 1 asshole doesn't determine what we listen to anymore. I sincerely hope that this helps the ass - buster players out there . 
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 22, 2020, 08:29:51 AM
Thanks for replying, max. But right there you illustrate the same problem we're having with WildRanger. What if someone thinks Black Crows and Nickelback have decent solos? What if someone likes the guitar solo in Nirvana's Smells Like Teen Spirit even though a lot of metalheads shit on it? It's all subjective. Black Crows and Nickelback are still professional musicians, and, dare I say, make a better living than a lot of technically-obsessed progressive metal artists who can shred. Shredding is cool, but it doesn't matter much if it doesn't connect with people. And, as sad as it make people, technicality isn't at the front of most music fans' minds. They want music that makes them feel, and as much as metalheads don't like hearing it, shredding doesn't invoke much emotion for most people.

Also, not really sure what is 'PC' about what I wrote. That's confusing. Nothing here is being sugarcoated with political correctness.

Understood. , the problem is ( was ) the outlet ( record industry ). The cool thing about today is that 1 asshole doesn't determine what we listen to anymore. I sincerely hope that this helps the ass - buster players out there .

I'm still waiting for the follow-up to Chinese Democracy...  :hat
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 22, 2020, 08:43:55 AM
What is a 'decent guitar solo'?  :corn
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: max_security on May 22, 2020, 08:55:00 AM
Thanks for replying, max. But right there you illustrate the same problem we're having with WildRanger. What if someone thinks Black Crows and Nickelback have decent solos? What if someone likes the guitar solo in Nirvana's Smells Like Teen Spirit even though a lot of metalheads shit on it? It's all subjective. Black Crows and Nickelback are still professional musicians, and, dare I say, make a better living than a lot of technically-obsessed progressive metal artists who can shred. Shredding is cool, but it doesn't matter much if it doesn't connect with people. And, as sad as it makes some people, technicality isn't at the front of most music fans' minds. They want music that makes them feel, and as much as metalheads don't like hearing it, shredding doesn't invoke much emotion for most people.

Also, not really sure what is 'PC' about what I wrote. That's confusing. Nothing here is being sugarcoated with political correctness.

I was in a band back then and had to play " Smells Like Teen Spirit " . One night I said " never again  " , and that was my last gig with that.

I learned a hard lesson back then ... kids are going to listen to something different than their parents , and if that means less or more talented than the former than so be it. Back in the 80's we had a quick rise and fall in what was an acceptable " standard " , and both were drivin by record execs.

Thats when I decided to cut off from the industry and music all together. The best guitar had already been played , Billy Sheehan had played all he could , and the same with drums. 1989 is the cut off for me as far as rock music , there is nothing beyond that. A few sparks here and ther but mostly nothingness ( as Fates Warning would say ).

But in the end , there is a standard as to what a pro musician should be. Today a guitar player needs to be able to do anything the players before him did ( alternate picking , arpeggios , tapping , blues , etc. ). Or at least write songs for people that can ? I don't know , F a Nickleback and a Black Crow.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 22, 2020, 08:57:08 AM
That's fair and all, but all of that is subjective opinion after subjective opinion. :)

I'm gonna blow your mind here, I like several Nickelback songs. I also really like the guitar parts in a couple Eminem songs, one of which samples Aerosmith's Dream On for its entirety.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 22, 2020, 08:57:34 AM
What is a 'decent guitar solo'?  :corn

For example: Boston - More Than a Feeling


Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: max_security on May 22, 2020, 08:57:49 AM
What is a 'decent guitar solo'?  :corn

https://youtu.be/gpNIkRHbDZM

Pass the popcorn please.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 22, 2020, 08:59:18 AM
What is a 'decent guitar solo'?  :corn

For example: Boston - More Than a Feeling

I didn't ask for an example.

I'd like you (or anybody else) to explain to me what they think a 'decent guitar solo' is.
And while you're at it, answer the 2 dozen or so questions I asked you specifically earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: lonestar on May 22, 2020, 09:00:41 AM
This thread is just glorious. :heart
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 22, 2020, 09:01:04 AM
This thread is just glorious. :heart

I know, it's fantastic.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 22, 2020, 09:01:26 AM
I'm telling my doctor this thread is why I have high blood pressure.  :lol
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 22, 2020, 09:01:52 AM
I didn't ask for an example.

Or maybe I did. It's kind of funny that the one question I asked that isn't specific gets answered, while all the other ones get ignored.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: lonestar on May 22, 2020, 09:07:58 AM
This thread is just glorious. :heart

I know, it's fantastic.

We need to get him to start a thread in P&R on the objective superiority of Catholocism next. :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: max_security on May 22, 2020, 09:09:59 AM
I didn't ask for an example.

Or maybe I did. It's kind of funny that the one question I asked that isn't specific gets answered, while all the other ones get ignored.

Also ask how such a horrible song gathered this much attention.

But yeah , Jason Beckers " Perpetual Burn " should be way far in the past but it isn't. Ask the doctor why guitar playing went on hiatus for 20 years cause I'd like to know too  (or was he superhuman ). BS music be gone .

https://youtu.be/JU699mIBXmI

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 22, 2020, 09:13:42 AM
I love some shred and all but - just my opinion - Jason Becker and Cacophony get old soooo quickly. You hear one song, you've more or less heard it all. Insane chops on those guys, I will never ever ever belittle the talent of Jason Becker, but like... I dunno, man, it gets tiresome very fast for me
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: MirrorMask on May 22, 2020, 09:14:47 AM
Well, since this thread has became anyway the equivalent of the latter stage of a frat party, counter question: can those "objectively better" and more complex musician write a pop / rock hit that everybody knows and hums?

When Desmond Child helped Bon Jovi, You Give Love a Bad Name came out. When Desmond Child helped Alice Cooper, Poison came out. When Desmond Child helped Dream Theater, You Not Me came out.

Can John Petrucci write a song that becomes a mainstream hit? just to stay in relatively heavy territory, Halestorm won a grammy with the fast and addictive Love Bites (But so do I), can John Petrucci or the guys in Rush write a song like that?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: max_security on May 22, 2020, 09:19:18 AM
I love some shred and all but - just my opinion - Jason Becker and Cacophony get old soooo quickly. You hear one song, you've more or less heard it all. Insane chops on those guys, I will never ever ever belittle the talent of Jason Becker, but like... I dunno, man, it gets tiresome very fast for me

They tried to hold back on quite a few tunes , I understand what you mean. They are an extreme example in the argument. Marty didn't play like that in MD and Becker in DLR.

but Images is awesome , no doubt.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: max_security on May 22, 2020, 09:30:04 AM
The Anti GNR . This way was so much better , just not enough meat for the machine I guess. Some suit in NYC decided this for you back in 86 or something. Knocking On Heaven's Door , give me a Fing break man , we were way past this shit back then.

https://youtu.be/T1Va1F1dQWo
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: max_security on May 22, 2020, 09:41:28 AM
The Anti GNR . This way was so much better , just not enough meat for the machine I guess. Some suit in NYC decided this for you back in 86 or something. Knocking On Heaven's Door , give me a Fing break man , we were way past this shit back then.

https://youtu.be/T1Va1F1dQWo

while we are on the subject , is there ANYTHING out now equal to this ( link in post ) ? I'm doubting it , really. Badass playing and a bad ass tune man. They don't write them like that anymore.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 22, 2020, 09:43:08 AM
The Anti GNR . This way was so much better , just not enough meat for the machine I guess. Some suit in NYC decided this for you back in 86 or something. Knocking On Heaven's Door , give me a Fing break man , we were way past this shit back then.

https://youtu.be/T1Va1F1dQWo

while we are on the subject , is there ANYTHING out now equal to this ( link in message ) ? I'm doubting it , really.

Well, yeah. To me, there are countless better things. Although that piece is good. Perhaps not to you. And that's okay. :P
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: max_security on May 22, 2020, 09:46:08 AM
We do have Jeff Loomis , I consider him to be the one carrying the torch. But he is actually from that time period too I believe.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: max_security on May 22, 2020, 09:51:55 AM
Solo at 2:47. There is no equal.

https://youtu.be/rcwcxBf_fTE

The best guitar had been played by 1989. Period.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 22, 2020, 09:53:01 AM
Okay WildRanger. ;)
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 22, 2020, 09:54:15 AM
The best guitar had been played by 1989. Period.

What the fuck. Here we go again!
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: max_security on May 22, 2020, 10:01:06 AM
The best guitar had been played by 1989. Period.

What the fuck. Here we go again!

I was there before and after. Guitar playing skipped a generation . Best guitar solos 1994 ( from non-Shrapnel players from the 80's or John P) = none.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: max_security on May 22, 2020, 10:05:50 AM
The best guitar had been played by 1989. Period.

What the fuck. Here we go again!

Dude , you work for Capitol Records ?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 22, 2020, 10:09:28 AM
The best guitar had been played by 1989. Period.

I'm just going to reply to this one, because why not? First off, we have the 'best' again, which I'm not even going to address at this point, since time has proven that it's pointless. Then the next word, 'guitar'. What kind of guitar? You're obviously looking for a very specific style of guitar playing that was happening at the end of the 80's, but playing the guitar is so much more than just those examples (and the liked) which you gave. Absolutely, Jason Becker, Marty Friedman and Yngwie Malmsteen are people who can play the guitar very fast, but to me - someone who wasn't alive back then and who can't place the music in the time-frame - those records (and I've heard them) sound dated and boring.

Why the focus on guitar solos specifically? There's such a huge variety of music out there to explore that there's bound to be something you'll enjoy, even if you haven't found it yet. And I hear lots of guitar music still, not on the radio probably, but elsewhere. There's stuff happening within the guitar community that would not have been possible in 1989, people are still doing mind-blowing stuff every day and finding new, creative ways of using the instrument. To say it ended with some guys noodling over a few chords, playing stupidly fast lines back in 1989 is, quite frankly, kind of absurd.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 22, 2020, 10:09:47 AM
The best guitar had been played by 1989. Period.

What the fuck. Here we go again!

Dude , you work for Capitol Records ?

I do not. Why?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: max_security on May 22, 2020, 10:10:26 AM
The best guitar had been played by 1989. Period.

What the fuck. Here we go again!

Dude , you work for Capitol Records ?

I'm just wondering why you are mad that everyone is not drinking the GNR Kool -Aide bro. Not everyone liked it.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 22, 2020, 10:11:23 AM
I weep. :facepalm:
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 22, 2020, 10:12:05 AM
The best guitar had been played by 1989. Period.

What the fuck. Here we go again!

Dude , you work for Capitol Records ?

I'm just wondering why you are mad that everyone is not drinking the GNR Kool -Aide bro. Not everyone liked it.

Stop the stupid personal attacks, that's not necessary. If you're wondering about my opinion on GNR, all you need to do is head over to the first page of this thread. Spoiler: I don't like them. And it doesn't matter if I did.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: max_security on May 22, 2020, 10:14:48 AM
sorry I was way off base.

I was there , the time has passed , and I am too. If you get you get it , if not keep on keeping on. - Peace to all.

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 22, 2020, 10:28:05 AM
After all, Miles Davis is a fucking hack.  Has he ever had a #1 record?  Toured stadia?  Sold a million copies of any of his singles?  He doesn't belong in the same conversation as Justin Beiber.

Do you realize that Miles Davis has created his music in different time when the music industry was not ruled by some greedy, idiotic powerful motherfuckers as its case today? Miles Davis hasn't given a fuck about fucking commercial success. That's one of reasons why he is so respected as an ARTIST! Do you get that?

Do you get I was making a point?   

(Of course, you don't know half of what you wrote FOR SURE, unless you've spoken to Miles himself, but that's also part of the point.)
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 22, 2020, 10:30:51 AM
I and one my friend had a conversation about taste in music. And we agreed there is no good or bad taste, but someone either has a taste or not.
He said his wife shares only 20% musical interests with him, but she HAS A TASTE, she is good when it comes to recognizing what is quality music and what is garbage music.

Then your friend has as little credibility as you do.  I found someone once that agreed with me that I'm good looking, but that, alas, also doesn't make it so. 
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: max_security on May 22, 2020, 10:30:58 AM
The best guitar had been played by 1989. Period.

I'm just going to reply to this one, because why not? First off, we have the 'best' again, which I'm not even going to address at this point, since time has proven that it's pointless. Then the next word, 'guitar'. What kind of guitar? You're obviously looking for a very specific style of guitar playing that was happening at the end of the 80's, but playing the guitar is so much more than just those examples (and the liked) which you gave. Absolutely, Jason Becker, Marty Friedman and Yngwie Malmsteen are people who can play the guitar very fast, but to me - someone who wasn't alive back then and who can't place the music in the time-frame - those records (and I've heard them) sound dated and boring.

I missed this or something.

Intelligent composition ... everyone is worried or concerned about ' FAST " . It was never about playing fast , it was about playing with " talent ". The " remedial players won fellers "



I missed this or something.

Intelligent composition ... everyone is worried or concerned about ' FAST " . It was never about playing fast , it was about playing with " talent ". The " remedial players won fellers " .

Why the focus on guitar solos specifically? There's such a huge variety of music out there to explore that there's bound to be something you'll enjoy, even if you haven't found it yet. And I hear lots of guitar music still, not on the radio probably, but elsewhere. There's stuff happening within the guitar community that would not have been possible in 1989, people are still doing mind-blowing stuff every day and finding new, creative ways of using the instrument. To say it ended with some guys noodling over a few chords, playing stupidly fast lines back in 1989 is, quite frankly, kind of absurd.








I missed this or something.

Intelligent composition ... everyone is worried or concerned about ' FAST " . It was never about playing fast , it was about playing with " talent ". The " remedial players won fellers "

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 22, 2020, 10:34:48 AM
Tell me this: Is Iron Maiden objectively better than Godsmack?

Objectively better AT WHAT?

I don't know a damn thing about Godsmack beyond what I'm reading on Wikipedia.  I imagine Maiden has sold more albums, but that shouldn't be surprising given that Maiden has been around a lot longer and has way more albums.

On the other hand, Godsmack appears to have 4 Grammy nominations to zero for Maiden.

Once again, asking whether something is "objectively better than" something else, you have to be clear about the relevant criteria.  As you phrased the question, it is utterly meaningless.


Justin Bieber is talentless.
He is just a singer/performer, not an artist. He hasn't one single characteristic of an artist. Compare him to widely appreciated artists as Bowie, Prince, Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson, Bob Marley, Marvin Gaye, Miles Davis, etc. What is he compared to them? Artist? Come on. 
His hits could be written by nearly everyone (including you or me).
Objectively he is one of the most hated singers on this planet, because the masses of people easily recognized his music is garbage.

And I don't think it's just an opinion, it's the truth.

Oh, for fuck's sake!

Justin Bieber has sole more than 150 million records.  He made a movie that was seen by millions and made millions of dollars in profit.  He is a MASSIVELY popular.  He is a hugely successful business person who has made millions on multiple business ventures.  If he's "talentless" and "objectively . . . one of the most hated singers on this planet," how has that happened?  While he might very well be hated by a lot of folks, it also seems to be an objective fact that he is also one of the most LOVED singers on the planet" (after all, one can be both "most hated" and "most loved").

He's "just a singer/performer, not an artist"?  Well...ok, if you define "artist" not to include "singers," but I think you'd be on that island alone.  Also, (1) Justin Bieber plays multiple instruments, and (2) wasn't Marvin Gaye also "just a singer/performer"?  Do you have to be primarily a player of a musical instrument to be considered an "artist"?  What about Ella Fitzgerald or Billie Holliday?  Were then "just singers/performers, not artists"?

Give me your opinion on this.

In one facebook rock fans group someone posted this question: "Name a better 3 musician band than Rush, if you can" and one guy responded with a big list of trio bands including Blink 182 and Green Day.
Even if someone is a big Rush hater I don't get how he can have an opinion that Blink 182 and Green Day are a 'better 3 musician bands' than Rush. That was a big insult to Rush.
His statement was absurd and wrong. Who in their right mind could claim something like that. LMAO

How would you react if someone tells you that Blink 182 and Green Day are better than Rush? Would you get into argument with that guy?

I know I'm late to the party, but you really are approaching "troll" status here.  You can't possibly be that obtuse to the point that multiple people have made over and over and over and over again.  "On what standard"?   You can't just say this shit and let it hang out there without some further fleshing out.

I wouldn't get into an "argument" with him, but I'd be curious what his OPINION was based on. 
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: pg1067 on May 22, 2020, 10:41:30 AM
How would you react if someone tells you that Blink 182 and Green Day are better than Rush? Would you get into argument with that guy?

I'd shrug my shoulders and say, "whatever."  Or I'd say, "I like a couple Green Day songs too, but Rush is my favorite band of all time.  I have my subjective opinions, and you have yours, and the diversity of opinion is one thing that makes life interesting."  Or, I'd say, as I said to you and you didn't bother to answer, "Better at what?"


OK. Many people on this board think (good and bad) music is 100% subjective and I disagree with them. I'm entitled to it. They can't convince me that music is 100% subjective nor I can't convince them that music is not 100% subjective either.
Case closed.

Well...thank God!
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 22, 2020, 10:51:27 AM
The hurdle here, which we can't get past, is that WR doesn't grasp the concept of subjectivity and therefore he continues to make the exact same argument using different bands/artists. At this juncture the conversation can't move forward.

OK. Many people on this board think (good and bad) music is 100% subjective and I disagree with them. I'm entitled to it. They can't convince me that music is 100% subjective nor I can't convince them that music is not 100% subjective either.
Case closed.

The problem, of course, is that we (the subjective) can PROVE, objectively, our case, and you can't.  You "saying" it doesn't make it so.

If I ask 100 people, "who is better, Rush or Green Day", and I get even a handful of responses "Green Day", you are PROVABLY wrong.  It's scientifically untenable to reject data that doesn't agree with your premise just because it doesn't agree with your premise.   You're arguing a tautology here in some ways.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but for me, I don't care what YOU think, in the sense that if you think Rush the superior band, for whatever reason, it's completely your right.   No question; I'm not telling you you are wrong, I'm just saying that you don't speak for anyone other than you yourself.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Indiscipline on May 22, 2020, 10:55:12 AM
sorry I was way off base.

I was there , the time has passed , and I am too. If you get you get it , if not keep on keeping on. - Peace to all.

Max, I think it's all a big misunderstanding caused by arguing different topics at different stages of the thread discussion.  :)

 

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: bosk1 on May 22, 2020, 11:02:33 AM
Not that it is really on topic, but since it came up:

As far as guitar solos, my top 2 would be:
1.  Paul Gilbert's solo on Neal Morse's The Door (from Sola Scriptura)
2.  Alex Skolnick's solo on Return To Serenity (Testament)

It's really hard for me to make a definitive list after that because there are just TONS of great ones.  I would instantly toss in a bunch by John Petrucci and Dave Meniketti.  For melodic shred, a bunch of Marty Friedman's solos in Megadeth are up there.  And then there are a lot that I love that, maybe while not technically great, are super melodic or are just what the song called for, like Ritchie Sambora's solo on Wanted Dead or Alive, Jake E. Lee's solo in Bark at the Moon, Zakk Wylde's solo on No More Tears, a lot of Chris DeGarmo's solos in Queensryche, a lot of Phil Collen's solos in Def Leppard's golden years, a lot of John Sykes stuff, a few Vivian Campbell solos with Dio...  Just SO MANY awesome ones to choose from.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Peter Mc on May 22, 2020, 11:07:49 AM
I don't get how so many people can't stand Axl Rose's singing but they don't mind Brian Johnson's vocals at all. Masses of people bought "Back in Black" and masses of people think it's an enjoyable record. Johnson's voice is a definition of "fingernails on a chalkboard" and people don't mind him, but they always want to bash Axl's voice. DOUBLE STANDARDS!

Masses of people bought GNR as well. At the time they imploded, in the early 90ís, they were the biggest band in the world. Donít let a few on here lead you to think everyone hates Axl. Tens of millions were buying their albums back in the day.

Donít get me wrong, he has a voice that would be annoying to some, I totally get that. I think itís an incredible voice though, totally unique and he conveys so much aggression, anger and menace when he wants it to. Great vocalist and performer imo, one of the greatest ever in rock music.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 22, 2020, 11:42:40 AM

The problem, of course, is that we (the subjective) can PROVE, objectively, our case, and you can't.  You "saying" it doesn't make it so.

If I ask 100 people, "who is better, Rush or Green Day", and I get even a handful of responses "Green Day", you are PROVABLY wrong.  It's scientifically untenable to reject data that doesn't agree with your premise just because it doesn't agree with your premise.   You're arguing a tautology here in some ways.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but for me, I don't care what YOU think, in the sense that if you think Rush the superior band, for whatever reason, it's completely your right.   No question; I'm not telling you you are wrong, I'm just saying that you don't speak for anyone other than you yourself.

OK. You wrote this, but I still genuinely believe it's the truth that Rush music has far more musical quality than Green Day, regardless of who prefer which band.

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Elite on May 22, 2020, 11:45:18 AM
Then explain what you think 'musical quality' is.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: pg1067 on May 22, 2020, 01:32:43 PM
OK. You wrote this, but I still genuinely believe it's the truth that Rush music has far more musical quality than Green Day

Hey...me too!  But it's a subjective opinion, not an objective fact.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 22, 2020, 01:55:47 PM

The problem, of course, is that we (the subjective) can PROVE, objectively, our case, and you can't.  You "saying" it doesn't make it so.

If I ask 100 people, "who is better, Rush or Green Day", and I get even a handful of responses "Green Day", you are PROVABLY wrong.  It's scientifically untenable to reject data that doesn't agree with your premise just because it doesn't agree with your premise.   You're arguing a tautology here in some ways.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but for me, I don't care what YOU think, in the sense that if you think Rush the superior band, for whatever reason, it's completely your right.   No question; I'm not telling you you are wrong, I'm just saying that you don't speak for anyone other than you yourself.

OK. You wrote this, but I still genuinely believe it's the truth that Rush music has far more musical quality than Green Day, regardless of who prefer which band.

And unless and until you define - objectively - what constitutes "musical quality", I still genuinely believe it's the truth that you don't fully understand the difference between "subjective" and "objective".  It's not the difference between "what I like" and "what embodies what I think admirable".  It's the difference between whether EVERYONE ELSE would say the same thing given the same facts.

If you and I were each given a set of numbers - unknown to each other - and told to add them, if you were given "4" and "6" and "1" and "8", you would arrive at "19".  So would I.  And so would any of 1,000 or more people given the same numbers.  That's "objectivity".  The same is not true of Rush and Green Day DEPENDING ON THE STANDARD YOU USE.   

I used to teach contracts/risk management.  And inevitably, at some point, a sales person (it's always a sales person) would interject that "why do we have to waste time and threaten a deal by pissing off our customers over a couple of words in a contract?  We all know what we have to do.".   And I would ask each person to take out a sheet of paper, and take a minute or two to count the blue shirts in the room and write the number down.   I'd collect the pieces of paper and start in on "well, we all know what 'blue' is, we learn it as early as the age of three.   But..." and I'd make a big production about looking at the pieces and start reading off the numbers in a quizzical voice.  I've never once ever not gotten more than five or ten pages without getting at least three different numbers, thus making my point.   The groups I was speaking to were 50 to 70 people, all college graduates, most with advanced degrees, and we couldn't objectively agree on what was "blue".   (Scientifically, we could agree what the light frequencies were that constitutes "blue", and that the contract specified that standard.  Same here; "quality" is meaningless without the standard for that "quality"). 
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: pg1067 on May 22, 2020, 04:32:45 PM
If you and I were each given a set of numbers - unknown to each other - and told to add them, if you were given "4" and "6" and "1" and "8", you would arrive at "19".  So would I.  And so would any of 1,000 or more people given the same numbers.

I'd wager a large sum of money that, if you told 1,000 random people to add the numbers 4, 6, 1 and 8, that at least 5-10 would not answer 19.   :lol
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Peter Mc on May 22, 2020, 04:40:06 PM
Not that it is really on topic, but since it came up:

As far as guitar solos, my top 2 would be:
1.  Paul Gilbert's solo on Neal Morse's The Door (from Sola Scriptura)
2.  Alex Skolnick's solo on Return To Serenity (Testament)

It's really hard for me to make a definitive list after that because there are just TONS of great ones.  I would instantly toss in a bunch by John Petrucci and Dave Meniketti.  For melodic shred, a bunch of Marty Friedman's solos in Megadeth are up there.  And then there are a lot that I love that, maybe while not technically great, are super melodic or are just what the song called for, like Ritchie Sambora's solo on Wanted Dead or Alive, Jake E. Lee's solo in Bark at the Moon, Zakk Wylde's solo on No More Tears, a lot of Chris DeGarmo's solos in Queensryche, a lot of Phil Collen's solos in Def Leppard's golden years, a lot of John Sykes stuff, a few Vivian Campbell solos with Dio...  Just SO MANY awesome ones to choose from.

My two favourite solos have been set in stone for a long time

David Gilmour - Comfortably Numb (live) from Pulse
Richie Sambora - Dry County
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 23, 2020, 07:40:36 AM
If you and I were each given a set of numbers - unknown to each other - and told to add them, if you were given "4" and "6" and "1" and "8", you would arrive at "19".  So would I.  And so would any of 1,000 or more people given the same numbers.

I'd wager a large sum of money that, if you told 1,000 random people to add the numbers 4, 6, 1 and 8, that at least 5-10 would not answer 19.   :lol

I think that points to a much different problem.  :)
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: twosuitsluke on May 25, 2020, 04:52:24 PM
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: WildRanger on May 26, 2020, 08:04:50 AM

  • I do prefer Green Day and Blink 182 over Rush. I prefer the energy of their music and have more fun singing along to their lyrics than I do to Rush.


OK. But even if you prefer their music you can't deny that Rush music has more musical quality.

Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 26, 2020, 08:06:47 AM

  • I do prefer Green Day and Blink 182 over Rush. I prefer the energy of their music and have more fun singing along to their lyrics than I do to Rush.


OK. But even if you prefer their music you can't deny that Rush music has more musical quality.

Whatever the hell that means.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 26, 2020, 09:35:36 AM

  • I do prefer Green Day and Blink 182 over Rush. I prefer the energy of their music and have more fun singing along to their lyrics than I do to Rush.


OK. But even if you prefer their music you can't deny that Rush music has more musical quality.

DENIED.   I support your polls, I generally do not think you're a troll, but the collective "wisdom" of the two or three threads currently on-going show me that you're seeing the world the way you want to see it, not the way it actually is.   
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: kingshmegland on May 26, 2020, 12:30:22 PM
Some people prefer Green Day's music of Rush.  I'm a huge Rush fan.  It's ok.  It happens in different generations.  Even being a huge *Trump voice* Rush fan most agree that my #1 album from Rush (Power Windows) is not even close to their favorite albums from them.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: The Walrus on May 26, 2020, 01:11:45 PM
I like the American Idiot record more than several Rush records. Shock and awe.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 26, 2020, 05:04:25 PM
I like the American Idiot record more than several Rush records. Shock and awe.
Weirdo.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: bosk1 on May 26, 2020, 05:24:09 PM
I like most things better than Rush.  But "most" is still not quite broad enough to encompass Green Day.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 26, 2020, 05:43:54 PM
I like most things better than Rush.  But "most" is still not quite broad enough to encompass Green Day.
:lol

What is it that you don't like about Rush? Their sound? Geddy's vocals? Neil's lyrics? Or something else?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: TAC on May 26, 2020, 05:45:20 PM
I like most things better than Rush.  But "most" is still not quite broad enough to encompass Green Day.
:lol

What is it that you don't like about Rush? Their sound? Geddy's vocals? Neil's lyrics? Or something else?

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=55272.0


A Wildrangervarium.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: bosk1 on May 26, 2020, 06:18:45 PM
I like most things better than Rush.  But "most" is still not quite broad enough to encompass Green Day.
:lol

What is it that you don't like about Rush? Their sound? Geddy's vocals? Neil's lyrics? Or something else?

Hard to put my finger on.  I can appreciate a lot of things about them.  But in terms of connecting with their music, I just don't, save the odd song here or there. 
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Adami on May 26, 2020, 06:58:49 PM
I like most things better than Rush.  But "most" is still not quite broad enough to encompass Green Day.
:lol

What is it that you don't like about Rush? Their sound? Geddy's vocals? Neil's lyrics? Or something else?

Hard to put my finger on.  I can appreciate a lot of things about them.  But in terms of connecting with their music, I just don't, save the odd song here or there.

But surely you recognize that Rush has higher musical quality than Green Day.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 26, 2020, 08:29:14 PM
I like most things better than Rush.  But "most" is still not quite broad enough to encompass Green Day.
:lol

What is it that you don't like about Rush? Their sound? Geddy's vocals? Neil's lyrics? Or something else?

Hard to put my finger on.  I can appreciate a lot of things about them.  But in terms of connecting with their music, I just don't, save the odd song here or there.
Gotcha. Which songs do you like?
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: bosk1 on May 27, 2020, 12:13:22 AM
Tom Sawyer, Spirit of Radio, and Red Barchetta come to mind.  I know a lot of the other "hits" as well, but don't care for them (Fly By Night, Closer To the Heart, Limelight, Roll the Bones, and some others), and I have heard some deep cuts that I cannot recall at the moment that I didn't care much for either.  Again, I recognize the talent and songwriting.  It just doesn't click with me.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: twosuitsluke on May 27, 2020, 03:46:54 AM

  • I do prefer Green Day and Blink 182 over Rush. I prefer the energy of their music and have more fun singing along to their lyrics than I do to Rush.


OK. But even if you prefer their music you can't deny that Rush music has more musical quality.

Whatever the hell that means.

Well this is the problem right here. What does musical quality mean? Music on the whole has lots of different qualities and every individual likes different qualities in the music they love. Some people love a heavy bass line, some search for meaningful lyrics, others for a peaceful background soundtrack, others still want a full aural assault in every sense of the word.

So to answer your question WildRanger, I won't deny that Rush are talented musicians and song writers, but I prefer the musical qualities that Blink-182 have. So for me, they don't have more 'musical quality'. As a side note. I know that Neil Peart is classed as one of the all time greatest drummers, and I can't deny the talent he had. I still prefer Travis Barker, his drumming has the qualities I look for in a drummer.
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: Stadler on May 27, 2020, 08:51:26 AM
Good luck, Luke.  Several of us have taken that same crack over the past couple days and it doesn't seem to have taken root. 
Title: Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
Post by: twosuitsluke on May 27, 2020, 09:38:56 AM
I know  :rollin

I've read it all yet here I am, banging my head against the same wall  :facepalm: