Poll

Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"

★☆☆☆☆
7 (17.1%)
★★☆☆☆
5 (12.2%)
★★★☆☆
9 (22%)
★★★★☆
11 (26.8%)
★★★★★
9 (22%)

Total Members Voted: 41

Author Topic: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"  (Read 3858 times)

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #280 on: May 22, 2020, 10:51:27 AM »
The hurdle here, which we can't get past, is that WR doesn't grasp the concept of subjectivity and therefore he continues to make the exact same argument using different bands/artists. At this juncture the conversation can't move forward.

OK. Many people on this board think (good and bad) music is 100% subjective and I disagree with them. I'm entitled to it. They can't convince me that music is 100% subjective nor I can't convince them that music is not 100% subjective either.
Case closed.

The problem, of course, is that we (the subjective) can PROVE, objectively, our case, and you can't.  You "saying" it doesn't make it so.

If I ask 100 people, "who is better, Rush or Green Day", and I get even a handful of responses "Green Day", you are PROVABLY wrong.  It's scientifically untenable to reject data that doesn't agree with your premise just because it doesn't agree with your premise.   You're arguing a tautology here in some ways.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but for me, I don't care what YOU think, in the sense that if you think Rush the superior band, for whatever reason, it's completely your right.   No question; I'm not telling you you are wrong, I'm just saying that you don't speak for anyone other than you yourself.

Offline Indiscipline

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #281 on: May 22, 2020, 10:55:12 AM »
sorry I was way off base.

I was there , the time has passed , and I am too. If you get you get it , if not keep on keeping on. - Peace to all.

Max, I think it's all a big misunderstanding caused by arguing different topics at different stages of the thread discussion.  :)

 


Offline bosk1

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #282 on: May 22, 2020, 11:02:33 AM »
Not that it is really on topic, but since it came up:

As far as guitar solos, my top 2 would be:
1.  Paul Gilbert's solo on Neal Morse's The Door (from Sola Scriptura)
2.  Alex Skolnick's solo on Return To Serenity (Testament)

It's really hard for me to make a definitive list after that because there are just TONS of great ones.  I would instantly toss in a bunch by John Petrucci and Dave Meniketti.  For melodic shred, a bunch of Marty Friedman's solos in Megadeth are up there.  And then there are a lot that I love that, maybe while not technically great, are super melodic or are just what the song called for, like Ritchie Sambora's solo on Wanted Dead or Alive, Jake E. Lee's solo in Bark at the Moon, Zakk Wylde's solo on No More Tears, a lot of Chris DeGarmo's solos in Queensryche, a lot of Phil Collen's solos in Def Leppard's golden years, a lot of John Sykes stuff, a few Vivian Campbell solos with Dio...  Just SO MANY awesome ones to choose from.
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Offline Peter Mc

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #283 on: May 22, 2020, 11:07:49 AM »
I don't get how so many people can't stand Axl Rose's singing but they don't mind Brian Johnson's vocals at all. Masses of people bought "Back in Black" and masses of people think it's an enjoyable record. Johnson's voice is a definition of "fingernails on a chalkboard" and people don't mind him, but they always want to bash Axl's voice. DOUBLE STANDARDS!

Masses of people bought GNR as well. At the time they imploded, in the early 90ís, they were the biggest band in the world. Donít let a few on here lead you to think everyone hates Axl. Tens of millions were buying their albums back in the day.

Donít get me wrong, he has a voice that would be annoying to some, I totally get that. I think itís an incredible voice though, totally unique and he conveys so much aggression, anger and menace when he wants it to. Great vocalist and performer imo, one of the greatest ever in rock music.

Offline WildRanger

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #284 on: May 22, 2020, 11:42:40 AM »

The problem, of course, is that we (the subjective) can PROVE, objectively, our case, and you can't.  You "saying" it doesn't make it so.

If I ask 100 people, "who is better, Rush or Green Day", and I get even a handful of responses "Green Day", you are PROVABLY wrong.  It's scientifically untenable to reject data that doesn't agree with your premise just because it doesn't agree with your premise.   You're arguing a tautology here in some ways.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but for me, I don't care what YOU think, in the sense that if you think Rush the superior band, for whatever reason, it's completely your right.   No question; I'm not telling you you are wrong, I'm just saying that you don't speak for anyone other than you yourself.

OK. You wrote this, but I still genuinely believe it's the truth that Rush music has far more musical quality than Green Day, regardless of who prefer which band.


Offline Elite

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #285 on: May 22, 2020, 11:45:18 AM »
Then explain what you think 'musical quality' is.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 11:50:24 AM by Elite »
Hey dude slow the fuck down so we can finish together at the same time.  :biggrin:
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #286 on: May 22, 2020, 01:32:43 PM »
OK. You wrote this, but I still genuinely believe it's the truth that Rush music has far more musical quality than Green Day

Hey...me too!  But it's a subjective opinion, not an objective fact.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #287 on: May 22, 2020, 01:55:47 PM »

The problem, of course, is that we (the subjective) can PROVE, objectively, our case, and you can't.  You "saying" it doesn't make it so.

If I ask 100 people, "who is better, Rush or Green Day", and I get even a handful of responses "Green Day", you are PROVABLY wrong.  It's scientifically untenable to reject data that doesn't agree with your premise just because it doesn't agree with your premise.   You're arguing a tautology here in some ways.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but for me, I don't care what YOU think, in the sense that if you think Rush the superior band, for whatever reason, it's completely your right.   No question; I'm not telling you you are wrong, I'm just saying that you don't speak for anyone other than you yourself.

OK. You wrote this, but I still genuinely believe it's the truth that Rush music has far more musical quality than Green Day, regardless of who prefer which band.

And unless and until you define - objectively - what constitutes "musical quality", I still genuinely believe it's the truth that you don't fully understand the difference between "subjective" and "objective".  It's not the difference between "what I like" and "what embodies what I think admirable".  It's the difference between whether EVERYONE ELSE would say the same thing given the same facts.

If you and I were each given a set of numbers - unknown to each other - and told to add them, if you were given "4" and "6" and "1" and "8", you would arrive at "19".  So would I.  And so would any of 1,000 or more people given the same numbers.  That's "objectivity".  The same is not true of Rush and Green Day DEPENDING ON THE STANDARD YOU USE.   

I used to teach contracts/risk management.  And inevitably, at some point, a sales person (it's always a sales person) would interject that "why do we have to waste time and threaten a deal by pissing off our customers over a couple of words in a contract?  We all know what we have to do.".   And I would ask each person to take out a sheet of paper, and take a minute or two to count the blue shirts in the room and write the number down.   I'd collect the pieces of paper and start in on "well, we all know what 'blue' is, we learn it as early as the age of three.   But..." and I'd make a big production about looking at the pieces and start reading off the numbers in a quizzical voice.  I've never once ever not gotten more than five or ten pages without getting at least three different numbers, thus making my point.   The groups I was speaking to were 50 to 70 people, all college graduates, most with advanced degrees, and we couldn't objectively agree on what was "blue".   (Scientifically, we could agree what the light frequencies were that constitutes "blue", and that the contract specified that standard.  Same here; "quality" is meaningless without the standard for that "quality"). 

Offline pg1067

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #288 on: May 22, 2020, 04:32:45 PM »
If you and I were each given a set of numbers - unknown to each other - and told to add them, if you were given "4" and "6" and "1" and "8", you would arrive at "19".  So would I.  And so would any of 1,000 or more people given the same numbers.

I'd wager a large sum of money that, if you told 1,000 random people to add the numbers 4, 6, 1 and 8, that at least 5-10 would not answer 19.   :lol
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Offline Peter Mc

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #289 on: May 22, 2020, 04:40:06 PM »
Not that it is really on topic, but since it came up:

As far as guitar solos, my top 2 would be:
1.  Paul Gilbert's solo on Neal Morse's The Door (from Sola Scriptura)
2.  Alex Skolnick's solo on Return To Serenity (Testament)

It's really hard for me to make a definitive list after that because there are just TONS of great ones.  I would instantly toss in a bunch by John Petrucci and Dave Meniketti.  For melodic shred, a bunch of Marty Friedman's solos in Megadeth are up there.  And then there are a lot that I love that, maybe while not technically great, are super melodic or are just what the song called for, like Ritchie Sambora's solo on Wanted Dead or Alive, Jake E. Lee's solo in Bark at the Moon, Zakk Wylde's solo on No More Tears, a lot of Chris DeGarmo's solos in Queensryche, a lot of Phil Collen's solos in Def Leppard's golden years, a lot of John Sykes stuff, a few Vivian Campbell solos with Dio...  Just SO MANY awesome ones to choose from.

My two favourite solos have been set in stone for a long time

David Gilmour - Comfortably Numb (live) from Pulse
Richie Sambora - Dry County

Offline Stadler

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #290 on: May 23, 2020, 07:40:36 AM »
If you and I were each given a set of numbers - unknown to each other - and told to add them, if you were given "4" and "6" and "1" and "8", you would arrive at "19".  So would I.  And so would any of 1,000 or more people given the same numbers.

I'd wager a large sum of money that, if you told 1,000 random people to add the numbers 4, 6, 1 and 8, that at least 5-10 would not answer 19.   :lol

I think that points to a much different problem.  :)

Offline twosuitsluke

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #291 on: May 25, 2020, 04:52:24 PM »
    This thread  :rollin

    I haven't laughed at a DTF thread like this in years! I don't even know where to begin??

    • Ok, I don't like GnR, so I'd give the song 1star.
    • I do prefer Green Day and Blink 182 over Rush. I prefer the energy of their music and have more fun singing along to their lyrics than I do to Rush.
    • I believe that Beethoven is better at making McDonald's burgers than Justin Bieber is at painting Picasso replicas. Make of that what you will.
    • I don't believe WildRanger is a troll.


    Reading this was often bafflimg, increasingly frustrating whilst also a laugh a minute, so thanks all.

    WildRanger, my take on this all is that you are a kid who at one time listened to popular music. At some point you read an article about the 100 Greatest Albums Ever and started to listen to lot of older music (which set you apart from some of your peers). You may or may not admit it, but somewhere along the way this made you somewhat elitist. You discovered Dream Theater and subsequently DTF. At this point you thought "At last, I am with my kin, the enlightened, those who see how superior prog is compared to all the music the plebs listen to". I feel you dreamed of an echochamber, where everyone on this site would agree with you and your sweeping musical statements.

    I'm sure that everytime you make a statement saying "But no real music fan would say Blink 182 are better than Rush" you believe that everyone here (on a prog rock forum) will unanimously agree that prog>everything. Thankfully (gloriously) you are wrong. That is the main reason I, and many others, continue to visit. I've discovered so much music outside of prog metal and rock on DTF, due to the widely varied tastes of everyone here.

    I think that the sooner you realise that you can like literally all types of music (even if it's pop music that 12 year olds love) and still hold on to your identity as a 'real music fan' , the sooner you'll stop worrying about whether one band is 'better' than another.

    I've recently become a father and the one thing I'm going to teach my son is that liking the music you like, whatever it is, is way cooler than pretending to like something just to fit in.

Offline WildRanger

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #292 on: May 26, 2020, 08:04:50 AM »

  • I do prefer Green Day and Blink 182 over Rush. I prefer the energy of their music and have more fun singing along to their lyrics than I do to Rush.


OK. But even if you prefer their music you can't deny that Rush music has more musical quality.


Offline The Walrus

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #293 on: May 26, 2020, 08:06:47 AM »

  • I do prefer Green Day and Blink 182 over Rush. I prefer the energy of their music and have more fun singing along to their lyrics than I do to Rush.


OK. But even if you prefer their music you can't deny that Rush music has more musical quality.

Whatever the hell that means.
From a Mega Man Legends island jamming power metal to a Walrus listening to black metal, I like your story arc.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #294 on: May 26, 2020, 09:35:36 AM »

  • I do prefer Green Day and Blink 182 over Rush. I prefer the energy of their music and have more fun singing along to their lyrics than I do to Rush.


OK. But even if you prefer their music you can't deny that Rush music has more musical quality.

DENIED.   I support your polls, I generally do not think you're a troll, but the collective "wisdom" of the two or three threads currently on-going show me that you're seeing the world the way you want to see it, not the way it actually is.   

Online kingshmegland

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #295 on: May 26, 2020, 12:30:22 PM »
Some people prefer Green Day's music of Rush.  I'm a huge Rush fan.  It's ok.  It happens in different generations.  Even being a huge *Trump voice* Rush fan most agree that my #1 album from Rush (Power Windows) is not even close to their favorite albums from them.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #296 on: May 26, 2020, 01:11:45 PM »
I like the American Idiot record more than several Rush records. Shock and awe.
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #297 on: May 26, 2020, 05:04:25 PM »
I like the American Idiot record more than several Rush records. Shock and awe.
Weirdo.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #298 on: May 26, 2020, 05:24:09 PM »
I like most things better than Rush.  But "most" is still not quite broad enough to encompass Green Day.
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #299 on: May 26, 2020, 05:43:54 PM »
I like most things better than Rush.  But "most" is still not quite broad enough to encompass Green Day.
:lol

What is it that you don't like about Rush? Their sound? Geddy's vocals? Neil's lyrics? Or something else?
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Online TAC

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #300 on: May 26, 2020, 05:45:20 PM »
I like most things better than Rush.  But "most" is still not quite broad enough to encompass Green Day.
:lol

What is it that you don't like about Rush? Their sound? Geddy's vocals? Neil's lyrics? Or something else?

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=55272.0


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Offline bosk1

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #301 on: May 26, 2020, 06:18:45 PM »
I like most things better than Rush.  But "most" is still not quite broad enough to encompass Green Day.
:lol

What is it that you don't like about Rush? Their sound? Geddy's vocals? Neil's lyrics? Or something else?

Hard to put my finger on.  I can appreciate a lot of things about them.  But in terms of connecting with their music, I just don't, save the odd song here or there. 
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #302 on: May 26, 2020, 06:58:49 PM »
I like most things better than Rush.  But "most" is still not quite broad enough to encompass Green Day.
:lol

What is it that you don't like about Rush? Their sound? Geddy's vocals? Neil's lyrics? Or something else?

Hard to put my finger on.  I can appreciate a lot of things about them.  But in terms of connecting with their music, I just don't, save the odd song here or there.

But surely you recognize that Rush has higher musical quality than Green Day.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 09:10:30 PM by Adami »
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #303 on: May 26, 2020, 08:29:14 PM »
I like most things better than Rush.  But "most" is still not quite broad enough to encompass Green Day.
:lol

What is it that you don't like about Rush? Their sound? Geddy's vocals? Neil's lyrics? Or something else?

Hard to put my finger on.  I can appreciate a lot of things about them.  But in terms of connecting with their music, I just don't, save the odd song here or there.
Gotcha. Which songs do you like?
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #304 on: May 27, 2020, 12:13:22 AM »
Tom Sawyer, Spirit of Radio, and Red Barchetta come to mind.  I know a lot of the other "hits" as well, but don't care for them (Fly By Night, Closer To the Heart, Limelight, Roll the Bones, and some others), and I have heard some deep cuts that I cannot recall at the moment that I didn't care much for either.  Again, I recognize the talent and songwriting.  It just doesn't click with me.
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Offline twosuitsluke

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #305 on: May 27, 2020, 03:46:54 AM »

  • I do prefer Green Day and Blink 182 over Rush. I prefer the energy of their music and have more fun singing along to their lyrics than I do to Rush.


OK. But even if you prefer their music you can't deny that Rush music has more musical quality.

Whatever the hell that means.

Well this is the problem right here. What does musical quality mean? Music on the whole has lots of different qualities and every individual likes different qualities in the music they love. Some people love a heavy bass line, some search for meaningful lyrics, others for a peaceful background soundtrack, others still want a full aural assault in every sense of the word.

So to answer your question WildRanger, I won't deny that Rush are talented musicians and song writers, but I prefer the musical qualities that Blink-182 have. So for me, they don't have more 'musical quality'. As a side note. I know that Neil Peart is classed as one of the all time greatest drummers, and I can't deny the talent he had. I still prefer Travis Barker, his drumming has the qualities I look for in a drummer.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #306 on: May 27, 2020, 08:51:26 AM »
Good luck, Luke.  Several of us have taken that same crack over the past couple days and it doesn't seem to have taken root. 

Offline twosuitsluke

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Re: Rate the Guns N' Roses version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door"
« Reply #307 on: May 27, 2020, 09:38:56 AM »
I know  :rollin

I've read it all yet here I am, banging my head against the same wall  :facepalm: