What songs should DT refrain from ever playing live again?

[Anxiety35]

With all the discussion around JLB and his voice, it got me thinking.

What songs should Dream Theater refrain from ever playing live again?

It has to do with JLB not being able to sing some parts anymore and the not so favorable opinions of many who responded about the band tuning down during the Images, Words, and Beyond tour. While I am a huge DT and JLB fan, the passing of time is nobody's friend and it's clear that some songs need to be eliminated from live settings. I don't like saying it, but it is what it is.

I will share 2 songs I think should be taken out.

Metropolis Part 1
Voices

[Lethean]

None.  It would probably be better not to have too many songs like that in one set, but I don't think anything should be off limits.  I'm fine with the melodies being reworked if needed.

[Evai]

I think Take The Time is the only applicable song here. Everything else is fine/equal

[PetFish]

None.

If the only concern is James' voice then he just need to sing them differently and not even try for the high stuff.  Even if you alter these parts there's still 99% of the rest of the song to enjoy and I'd hate to miss out on so many great instrumental moments just to avoid James having to deal with the high parts.

TL;DR - Keep all of the songs but alter the vocal spots that are out of reach.

[pg1067]

What songs should Dream Theater refrain from ever playing live again?

Is the question asking about songs that shouldn't be done because James can't hit all the high notes?  If so, I say none because the vocal parts can be altered.

If the question is asking about songs that shouldn't be done because they've been done to death, according to setlist.fm, the ten most played DT songs are as follows:

PMU*
Metropolis
UaGM*
TtT
Surrounded
LtL
TSCO*
Another Day*
Lie*
Strange Deja Vu

Those that I asterisked I'd be fine with being retired.  I would very much not be happy about the others being retired.

Obviously, there are other songs I'd be happy never to see live (again) simply because I don't really care for them (e.g., "Innocence Faded," "The Mirror," "I Walk Beside You"), but I assume that's not what you're asking.

[Elite]

I don't really care for "Innocence Faded"

[noxon]

I don't really care for "Innocence Faded"

Don't know why that is surprising, seeing as the song gets little love from DT either. It's among the bottom ten percentile of live performed songs of the songs DT has released on albums.

[Architeuthis]

Repentance

[Anxiety35]

Yes, my original post is more about James' current vocal range. It's not about the band's ability to play the song with their instruments.

Who wants to hear the vocals in a dramatically different way? I don't. I wouldn't want to hear "Take The Time" or "Pull Me Under" sung differently. For me, it messes with the integrity of the song.

Of course in every concert, there are moments in songs where artists vary from what's on the album. However, a trademark of DT is LaBrie and his vocals. If the vocals have to be very different from the album, I'd rather DT shelve the song.

A good alternative, as mentioned above, would be a medley where some of the more difficult vocal parts for James can be removed.

Like I said earlier, the passing of time is nobody's friend. I don't like the fact that James can't hit the high notes like he used to. But as a fan it's embarrassing and sad to hear him struggle. I'd rather the band pull the song than make an attempt hoping for a little of the old magic to happen again.

[Elite]

I don't really care for "Innocence Faded"

Don't know why that is surprising, seeing as the song gets little love from DT either. It's among the bottom ten percentile of live performed songs of the songs DT has released on albums.

I know it is. It's a top 10 DT song for me.

[Dublagent66]

I love the Score version of Innocence Faded, but that was 2006.  Not sure JLB could pull off that performance again.  My favorite part of the song is actually the outro. 

[Chino]

Metropolis Part 1

The fuck? That'd be like asking Tom Petty (rest is soul) to never play Free Fallin' again.

[pg1067]

I don't really care for "Innocence Faded"

Well...in this thread ( https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=52238.0 ), 39 people ranked the songs on Awake.  The average ranking for "Innocence Faded" was 7.67.  The only song with a worse average ranking was TSM (note that the averages are skewed somewhat because a few folks ranked AMBI as a single song, rather than separating out the three parts).  One third of the 39 people ranked IF as either the #10 or #11 song on the album.  Only seven people ranked it in the top 5.  No one ranked the song as the best on the album, and your ranking of the song as second best on the album was only one of two to be that high (no one else ranked it higher than #4).

To the extent the frequency with which the band played the song live is any indication of anything, it has only been played 19 times in the 24 years since Awake was released, and not at all since the April 2006 Radio City show.  That's the same number of times as "Vacant" and less frequently than "Speak to Me."  It is far and away the least frequently performed song from Awake (even SDV has been played 94 times).

[pg1067]

Who wants to hear the vocals in a dramatically different way? I don't. I wouldn't want to hear "Take The Time" or "Pull Me Under" sung differently. For me, it messes with the integrity of the song.

Doesn't bother me at all.  James has been altering the melodies a bit in the last couple tours.  Fates Warning just released a nearly universally loved live album that features a bunch of altered vocal melodies for exactly this reason, and it sounds awesome.  Obviously, this is a "to each his/her own" sort of thing.

Metropolis Part 1

The fuck? That'd be like asking Tom Petty (rest is soul) to never play Free Fallin' again.

Pretty sure he won't ever play it again....

[Samsara]

Who wants to hear the vocals in a dramatically different way? I don't. I wouldn't want to hear "Take The Time" or "Pull Me Under" sung differently. For me, it messes with the integrity of the song.

Doesn't bother me at all.  James has been altering the melodies a bit in the last couple tours.  Fates Warning just released a nearly universally loved live album that features a bunch of altered vocal melodies for exactly this reason, and it sounds awesome.  Obviously, this is a "to each his/her own" sort of thing.

Agreed. I actually would prefer DT spent the time to rework songs for James a bit more. I don't need to hear the James from 1991. I want to hear a song performed well, and to be blunt, the I&W show I saw, which I knew would be tough for James to pull off, was really rough in the vocal department. I love James, love his voice -- the band should dedicate itself to re-arranging songs to fit what James can do vocally on a consistent basis in a live setting.

It works for Fates Warning, it can work for Dream Theater. Fans would get over it.

Edit - not much I wouldn't want to see DT completely eliminate from ever playing. If I had to pick something, it would likely be no more medleys of any sort, or cover tunes. They have such a big catalog, just line up 20 songs, rotate as much as possible, and do that.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

The one I think maybe is UaGM. When they reworked the melodies on the last tour, that was the one I & W song that seemed to largely be left unchanged, not sure why. Maybe the melodies didn't really work when altered? In any case, it was the one song where James seemed to consistently struggle late in the tour once he'd settled into the new melodies.

[Cool Chris]

If I had to pick something, it would likely be no more medleys of any sort, or cover tunes.

No kidding. Cover tunes are for the local bands playing casinos for fun on a Friday night in front of bachelorette parties and 40 year old housewives on their 'Girls' Night Out.'

[gzarruk]

There's many songs that have been played quite a lot in the last few years that I would want them to stop playing for a while (TSCO, PMU and AIA being some of them), but if we're talking about James' hability to nail the songs, then I would say most of IAW like AD, UAGM and TTT, for example.

If I had to pick something, it would likely be no more medleys of any sort, or cover tunes.

They haven't played any covers or medleys since MP left the band (excepting that one time with Crimson Projekct, but it was once in almost 8 years). So I wouldn't worry too much about it

[PetFish]

A good alternative, as mentioned above, would be a medley where some of the more difficult vocal parts for James can be removed.

All this would do would be to further emphasize things that James can no longer handle consistently and would probably make him feel isolated and quite possibly ashamed that he can't "keep up".

It's tough enough for any vocalist to deal with aging when others really don't have to.

I find this suggestion to be 100% awful and I'll state, again, that enjoying 99% of a song while singing something a little lower than the original doesn't mess with the integrity of the song at all.  If anything, hearing James blow it on a high part making people cringe or facepalm (which I'm sure he can see from the stage) actually *does* mess with the integrity of the song and takes the listener out of the moment not to mention messes with James' confidence.

I'd argue that adding/changing moments (ie. the funny stuff from ACoS (Simpsons theme, the horse race thing, the kazoo-whistle-whatever thing)) is something that *actually does* mess with the integrity of the song, especially in one so serious as ACoS.

TL;DR - Every song should be available all the time and adjusted for James' aging vocal chords cuz that's the right thing to do.  I'm sorry vocalists get old on you.

[SwedishGoose]

I'm in the none camp.... I prefer if they change the vocal parts if necessary or create medleys with the harder parts cut out.

[MirrorMask]

None.  It would probably be better not to have too many songs like that in one set, but I don't think anything should be off limits.  I'm fine with the melodies being reworked if needed.

It's kinda a buzzkill when the correct reply is already the first one

[The Walrus]

IMO, changing the vocal melodies sucks part of the magic out of the songs. The melodies are that way because they complete the song. Not that alternate melodies are bad, but there's a reason they're sung the way they are in the first place. I would rather they remove any and all songs with James having to go higher for a significant period of time and focus on more modern songs. No song should be removed because they're played too often, because then you're removing an intrinsic element of the band's style, but as far as saving James's voice, yeah, get rid of the old stuff, we don't need to hear Surrounded or Take The Time anymore, or anything that requires him straining, which is a lot of old material. Play more stuff from the last few albums instead. Focus on the now and what will give the singer the most comfort and longevity for the sake of the band.

Sorry if I posted that already, I've typed up a few posts and refrained from posting them here because I don't want to offend any fans of James - I am a massive fan, too, that's why I care about his voice so much.

[Bertie_Wooster]

All I know is they need to play "The best of times"

[SwedishGoose]

All I know is they need to play "The best of times"

Not when they come to Stockholm...

[Ben_Jamin]

All I know is they need to play "The best of times"

Thats too much of a personal MP song though. Some people don't listen because they can't relate to it due to the lyrics dealing with MP's times with his father. "The old 812 watching harold and Maude."

[Cool Chris]

All I know is they need to play "The best of times"

Thats too much of a personal MP song though.

Not to pick on you, but I am so tired of this line of thinking. It is a DT song, released on a DT album. If it was a good song fans enjoyed, it shouldn't matter if it the song is a tribute to a band member's father, or a song about.... whatever the hell The Dark Eternal Night is about. Nor should it matter whether or not someone can relate to it. People relate to art in their own personal way. I've never set foot in Folsom Prison, but damn if I don't think Johnny Cash's song is awesome.

On topic....

The Dark Eternal Night
Everything from WDaDU

On topic of changing melodies vs dropping songs altogether, I have a hard time personally deciding which I would prefer.

[Adami]

All I know is they need to play "The best of times"

Thats too much of a personal MP song though.

Not to pick on you, but I am so tired of this line of thinking. It is a DT song, released on a DT album. If it was a good song fans enjoyed, it shouldn't matter if it the song is a tribute to a band member's father, or a song about.... whatever the hell The Dark Eternal Night is about. Nor should it matter whether or not someone can relate to it. People relate to art in their own personal way. I've never set foot in Folsom Prison, but damn if I don't think Johnny Cash's song is awesome.

Its a matter of personal respect. MP has made it clear that the song is very personal to him and he would find it odd if DT played it without him. The DT guys are respecting this. I don't see an issue. They're being classy.

[Cool Chris]

Well sure if that is something they had mutually agreed to, that is different. I was looking at it from the angle of us, the fans, making the decision.

[Adami]

Well sure if that is something they had mutually agreed to, that is different. I was looking at it from the angle of us, the fans, making the decision.

We're not making any decisions. We're just discussing our preferences. At no point will John or whomever say "So I spoke to MP and he is totally cool with us playing Best of Times, and we are all psyched to it, but a few posters on DTF told us that we can't....so I guess that's a no go".

[Ben_Jamin]

Which is why the only way I see it being played is with MP behind the kit. A special one off appearance just for that one song.

[Cool Chris]

Sigh... I am thinking/typing while trying to go through my kid's clothes. Why the hell did I have so many clothes for my daughter when she was 2? I get everything you all are saying and am in agreement.

If, however, Mike asked the guys not to play it, and the 4 of them decided it is a good DT song that would go over well live and did add it to the setlist, I wouldn't think less of them.

If there is a one-off performance with Mike, I imagine 1) That could have the potential to be quite the show (not that I have any interest in seeing it happen), and 2) TBoT would not be a highlight for me.

[Indiscipline]

What songs should DT refrain from ever playing live again?

My first response would be: "None. Every DT live performance may be the first or only DT live performance in someone's life."

My second response is: "Wait. The premise behind the question sounds quite hurtful to James' professional pride. Let's put the matter in fairer and less humiliating terms: is there a way to avoid too many consecutive shows inside DT's live schedule?"

Please, know that I'm not criticising the thread's author nor resenting criticism towards James by anyone. It's just the way that peculiar question resonates with my background and sensibility.


EDIT: I should refrain from typing typos again

[SeRoX]

On topic....

Everything from WDaDU

Please not until we hear The Killing Hand again once more.

[TAC]

On topic....

Everything from WDaDU

Please not until we hear The Killing Hand again once more.

It's a Top 5 DT track for me.

[OpenYourEyes311]

On topic....

Everything from WDaDU

Please not until we hear The Killing Hand again once more.

It's a Top 5 DT track for me.

Yeah, I'm still holding out hope for Killing Hand and Only a Matter of Time returning to the set. I wouldn't mind seeing Status Seeker or TOWHTSTS either, although I know those are very much long shots at this point. This album is in my top 5 DT albums, so every song is something I'd like to hear any time, but I've seen the other four, so it doesn't matter to me whether they play them again or not.