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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Anxiety35 on August 21, 2018, 03:29:05 PM
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With all the discussion around JLB and his voice, it got me thinking.
What songs should Dream Theater refrain from ever playing live again?
It has to do with JLB not being able to sing some parts anymore and the not so favorable opinions of many who responded about the band tuning down during the Images, Words, and Beyond tour. While I am a huge DT and JLB fan, the passing of time is nobody's friend and it's clear that some songs need to be eliminated from live settings. I don't like saying it, but it is what it is.
I will share 2 songs I think should be taken out.
Metropolis Part 1
Voices
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None. It would probably be better not to have too many songs like that in one set, but I don't think anything should be off limits. I'm fine with the melodies being reworked if needed.
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I think Take The Time is the only applicable song here. Everything else is fine/equal
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None.
If the only concern is James' voice then he just need to sing them differently and not even try for the high stuff. Even if you alter these parts there's still 99% of the rest of the song to enjoy and I'd hate to miss out on so many great instrumental moments just to avoid James having to deal with the high parts.
TL;DR - Keep all of the songs but alter the vocal spots that are out of reach.
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What songs should Dream Theater refrain from ever playing live again?
Is the question asking about songs that shouldn't be done because James can't hit all the high notes? If so, I say none because the vocal parts can be altered.
If the question is asking about songs that shouldn't be done because they've been done to death, according to setlist.fm, the ten most played DT songs are as follows:
PMU*
Metropolis
UaGM*
TtT
Surrounded
LtL
TSCO*
Another Day*
Lie*
Strange Deja Vu
Those that I asterisked I'd be fine with being retired. I would very much not be happy about the others being retired.
Obviously, there are other songs I'd be happy never to see live (again) simply because I don't really care for them (e.g., "Innocence Faded," "The Mirror," "I Walk Beside You"), but I assume that's not what you're asking.
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I don't really care for "Innocence Faded"
:(
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I don't really care for "Innocence Faded"
:(
Don't know why that is surprising, seeing as the song gets little love from DT either. It's among the bottom ten percentile of live performed songs of the songs DT has released on albums.
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Repentance
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Yes, my original post is more about James' current vocal range. It's not about the band's ability to play the song with their instruments.
Who wants to hear the vocals in a dramatically different way? I don't. I wouldn't want to hear "Take The Time" or "Pull Me Under" sung differently. For me, it messes with the integrity of the song.
Of course in every concert, there are moments in songs where artists vary from what's on the album. However, a trademark of DT is LaBrie and his vocals. If the vocals have to be very different from the album, I'd rather DT shelve the song.
A good alternative, as mentioned above, would be a medley where some of the more difficult vocal parts for James can be removed.
Like I said earlier, the passing of time is nobody's friend. I don't like the fact that James can't hit the high notes like he used to. But as a fan it's embarrassing and sad to hear him struggle. I'd rather the band pull the song than make an attempt hoping for a little of the old magic to happen again.
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I don't really care for "Innocence Faded"
:(
Don't know why that is surprising, seeing as the song gets little love from DT either. It's among the bottom ten percentile of live performed songs of the songs DT has released on albums.
I know it is. It's a top 10 DT song for me.
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I love the Score version of Innocence Faded, but that was 2006. Not sure JLB could pull off that performance again. My favorite part of the song is actually the outro. :hefdaddy
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Metropolis Part 1
The fuck? That'd be like asking Tom Petty (rest is soul) to never play Free Fallin' again.
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I don't really care for "Innocence Faded"
:(
Well...in this thread ( https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=52238.0 ), 39 people ranked the songs on Awake. The average ranking for "Innocence Faded" was 7.67. The only song with a worse average ranking was TSM (note that the averages are skewed somewhat because a few folks ranked AMBI as a single song, rather than separating out the three parts). One third of the 39 people ranked IF as either the #10 or #11 song on the album. Only seven people ranked it in the top 5. No one ranked the song as the best on the album, and your ranking of the song as second best on the album was only one of two to be that high (no one else ranked it higher than #4).
To the extent the frequency with which the band played the song live is any indication of anything, it has only been played 19 times in the 24 years since Awake was released, and not at all since the April 2006 Radio City show. That's the same number of times as "Vacant" and less frequently than "Speak to Me." It is far and away the least frequently performed song from Awake (even SDV has been played 94 times).
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Who wants to hear the vocals in a dramatically different way? I don't. I wouldn't want to hear "Take The Time" or "Pull Me Under" sung differently. For me, it messes with the integrity of the song.
Doesn't bother me at all. James has been altering the melodies a bit in the last couple tours. Fates Warning just released a nearly universally loved live album that features a bunch of altered vocal melodies for exactly this reason, and it sounds awesome. Obviously, this is a "to each his/her own" sort of thing.
Metropolis Part 1
The fuck? That'd be like asking Tom Petty (rest is soul) to never play Free Fallin' again.
Pretty sure he won't ever play it again....
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Who wants to hear the vocals in a dramatically different way? I don't. I wouldn't want to hear "Take The Time" or "Pull Me Under" sung differently. For me, it messes with the integrity of the song.
Doesn't bother me at all. James has been altering the melodies a bit in the last couple tours. Fates Warning just released a nearly universally loved live album that features a bunch of altered vocal melodies for exactly this reason, and it sounds awesome. Obviously, this is a "to each his/her own" sort of thing.
Agreed. I actually would prefer DT spent the time to rework songs for James a bit more. I don't need to hear the James from 1991. I want to hear a song performed well, and to be blunt, the I&W show I saw, which I knew would be tough for James to pull off, was really rough in the vocal department. I love James, love his voice -- the band should dedicate itself to re-arranging songs to fit what James can do vocally on a consistent basis in a live setting.
It works for Fates Warning, it can work for Dream Theater. Fans would get over it.
Edit - not much I wouldn't want to see DT completely eliminate from ever playing. If I had to pick something, it would likely be no more medleys of any sort, or cover tunes. They have such a big catalog, just line up 20 songs, rotate as much as possible, and do that.
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The one I think maybe is UaGM. When they reworked the melodies on the last tour, that was the one I & W song that seemed to largely be left unchanged, not sure why. Maybe the melodies didn't really work when altered? In any case, it was the one song where James seemed to consistently struggle late in the tour once he'd settled into the new melodies.
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If I had to pick something, it would likely be no more medleys of any sort, or cover tunes.
No kidding. Cover tunes are for the local bands playing casinos for fun on a Friday night in front of bachelorette parties and 40 year old housewives on their 'Girls' Night Out.'
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There's many songs that have been played quite a lot in the last few years that I would want them to stop playing for a while (TSCO, PMU and AIA being some of them), but if we're talking about James' hability to nail the songs, then I would say most of IAW like AD, UAGM and TTT, for example.
If I had to pick something, it would likely be no more medleys of any sort, or cover tunes.
They haven't played any covers or medleys since MP left the band (excepting that one time with Crimson Projekct, but it was once in almost 8 years). So I wouldn't worry too much about it :tup
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A good alternative, as mentioned above, would be a medley where some of the more difficult vocal parts for James can be removed.
All this would do would be to further emphasize things that James can no longer handle consistently and would probably make him feel isolated and quite possibly ashamed that he can't "keep up".
It's tough enough for any vocalist to deal with aging when others really don't have to.
I find this suggestion to be 100% awful and I'll state, again, that enjoying 99% of a song while singing something a little lower than the original doesn't mess with the integrity of the song at all. If anything, hearing James blow it on a high part making people cringe or facepalm (which I'm sure he can see from the stage) actually *does* mess with the integrity of the song and takes the listener out of the moment not to mention messes with James' confidence.
I'd argue that adding/changing moments (ie. the funny stuff from ACoS (Simpsons theme, the horse race thing, the kazoo-whistle-whatever thing)) is something that *actually does* mess with the integrity of the song, especially in one so serious as ACoS.
TL;DR - Every song should be available all the time and adjusted for James' aging vocal chords cuz that's the right thing to do. I'm sorry vocalists get old on you.
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I'm in the none camp.... I prefer if they change the vocal parts if necessary or create medleys with the harder parts cut out.
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None. It would probably be better not to have too many songs like that in one set, but I don't think anything should be off limits. I'm fine with the melodies being reworked if needed.
It's kinda a buzzkill when the correct reply is already the first one :D
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IMO, changing the vocal melodies sucks part of the magic out of the songs. The melodies are that way because they complete the song. Not that alternate melodies are bad, but there's a reason they're sung the way they are in the first place. I would rather they remove any and all songs with James having to go higher for a significant period of time and focus on more modern songs. No song should be removed because they're played too often, because then you're removing an intrinsic element of the band's style, but as far as saving James's voice, yeah, get rid of the old stuff, we don't need to hear Surrounded or Take The Time anymore, or anything that requires him straining, which is a lot of old material. Play more stuff from the last few albums instead. Focus on the now and what will give the singer the most comfort and longevity for the sake of the band.
Sorry if I posted that already, I've typed up a few posts and refrained from posting them here because I don't want to offend any fans of James - I am a massive fan, too, that's why I care about his voice so much.
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All I know is they need to play “The best of times”
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All I know is they need to play “The best of times”
Not when they come to Stockholm...
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All I know is they need to play “The best of times”
Thats too much of a personal MP song though. Some people don't listen because they can't relate to it due to the lyrics dealing with MP's times with his father. "The old 812 watching harold and Maude."
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All I know is they need to play “The best of times”
Thats too much of a personal MP song though.
Not to pick on you, but I am so tired of this line of thinking. It is a DT song, released on a DT album. If it was a good song fans enjoyed, it shouldn't matter if it the song is a tribute to a band member's father, or a song about.... whatever the hell The Dark Eternal Night is about. Nor should it matter whether or not someone can relate to it. People relate to art in their own personal way. I've never set foot in Folsom Prison, but damn if I don't think Johnny Cash's song is awesome.
On topic....
The Dark Eternal Night
Everything from WDaDU
On topic of changing melodies vs dropping songs altogether, I have a hard time personally deciding which I would prefer.
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All I know is they need to play “The best of times”
Thats too much of a personal MP song though.
Not to pick on you, but I am so tired of this line of thinking. It is a DT song, released on a DT album. If it was a good song fans enjoyed, it shouldn't matter if it the song is a tribute to a band member's father, or a song about.... whatever the hell The Dark Eternal Night is about. Nor should it matter whether or not someone can relate to it. People relate to art in their own personal way. I've never set foot in Folsom Prison, but damn if I don't think Johnny Cash's song is awesome.
Its a matter of personal respect. MP has made it clear that the song is very personal to him and he would find it odd if DT played it without him. The DT guys are respecting this. I don't see an issue. They're being classy.
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Well sure if that is something they had mutually agreed to, that is different. I was looking at it from the angle of us, the fans, making the decision.
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Well sure if that is something they had mutually agreed to, that is different. I was looking at it from the angle of us, the fans, making the decision.
We're not making any decisions. We're just discussing our preferences. At no point will John or whomever say "So I spoke to MP and he is totally cool with us playing Best of Times, and we are all psyched to it, but a few posters on DTF told us that we can't....so I guess that's a no go".
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Which is why the only way I see it being played is with MP behind the kit. A special one off appearance just for that one song.
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Sigh... I am thinking/typing while trying to go through my kid's clothes. Why the hell did I have so many clothes for my daughter when she was 2? I get everything you all are saying and am in agreement.
If, however, Mike asked the guys not to play it, and the 4 of them decided it is a good DT song that would go over well live and did add it to the setlist, I wouldn't think less of them.
If there is a one-off performance with Mike, I imagine 1) That could have the potential to be quite the show (not that I have any interest in seeing it happen), and 2) TBoT would not be a highlight for me.
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What songs should DT refrain from ever playing live again?
My first response would be: "None. Every DT live performance may be the first or only DT live performance in someone's life."
My second response is: "Wait. The premise behind the question sounds quite hurtful to James' professional pride. Let's put the matter in fairer and less humiliating terms: is there a way to avoid too many consecutive shows inside DT's live schedule?"
Please, know that I'm not criticising the thread's author nor resenting criticism towards James by anyone. It's just the way that peculiar question resonates with my background and sensibility.
EDIT: I should refrain from typing typos again
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On topic....
Everything from WDaDU
Please not until we hear The Killing Hand again once more.
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On topic....
Everything from WDaDU
Please not until we hear The Killing Hand again once more.
It's a Top 5 DT track for me.
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On topic....
Everything from WDaDU
Please not until we hear The Killing Hand again once more.
It's a Top 5 DT track for me.
Yeah, I'm still holding out hope for Killing Hand and Only a Matter of Time returning to the set. I wouldn't mind seeing Status Seeker or TOWHTSTS either, although I know those are very much long shots at this point. This album is in my top 5 DT albums, so every song is something I'd like to hear any time, but I've seen the other four, so it doesn't matter to me whether they play them again or not.
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Its a matter of personal respect. MP has made it clear that the song is very personal to him and he would find it odd if DT played it without him. The DT guys are respecting this. I don't see an issue. They're being classy.
Agreed.
And since JP hates medleys, the odds of ever seeing that ending guitar solo played live are slim to none as well.
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Petruccinator is not alone in that respect. I'm no fan of these either.
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After seeing I&W live last year, one of my initial thoughts was that this would be a good send off for those songs. They have all been heavily documented on live recordings and I imagine the vast majority of fans have heard them live. I wouldn't mind if they retired I&W as a whole and devoted concerts to the rest of their catalog.
I definitely understand the argument that every DT show is somebody's first DT show, but they're in a unique position here. I&W helped bring in fans during the MTV days, but they have other albums that are equally influential and just as loved by fans. They are one of the few established bands I can think of who routinely perform gigs without playing anything from their most commercially successful album and nobody complains.
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TTT is really the only one I can think of. I was already in semi-retirement, and it should (IMO) not have come out of it, or at the very least in a highly modified version that James can sing.
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After seeing I&W live last year, one of my initial thoughts was that this would be a good send off for those songs. They have all been heavily documented on live recordings and I imagine the vast majority of fans have heard them live. I wouldn't mind if they retired I&W as a whole and devoted concerts to the rest of their catalog.
Great point.
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I don't really care for "Innocence Faded"
:(
Don't know why that is surprising, seeing as the song gets little love from DT either. It's among the bottom ten percentile of live performed songs of the songs DT has released on albums.
I'd like to think that's because it is fucking difficult to sing in the first place! :lol One of my absolute favourites, but I'm not sure if James could pull it off these days.
There are some songs I don't care about at all, but they are from Rudess era. If we're talking about older songs, Caught in a Web may go and enjoy its retirement somewhere nice, away from setlists. I like it, but I saw it live in 30th anniversary tour and James' performance was rather rough.
On topic....
Everything from WDaDU
Please not until we hear The Killing Hand again once more.
Yes!
Most of WDADU is already retired. Too bad, I love that album.
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Home, and A Nightmare to Remember. Both good songs but take up too much reale-estate in a setlist. They have other long songs that are more exciting to listen to in a live setting.
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Home, and A Nightmare to Remember. Both good songs but take up too much reale-estate in a setlist. They have other long songs that are more exciting to listen to in a live setting.
Oh boy, I hope not! Home is one of my favorites (and I think for a lot of fans). Yeah, it's long, but it's too good to never play again. And they haven't pulled out Nightmare since the Black Clouds tour. I'm hoping for at least one tour with that song with Mangini behind the kit.
As far as what I think should be retired... other than I&W stuff taking a long break, I don't think anything should be "retired." If they never play certain songs again, that's fine. But I hope they keep rotating the set enough that we get enough variety through the final years of the band. I don't need to hear them play Spirit Carries On or Pull Me Under or As I Am again, but if they take a break from those and bring them back in 8-10 years, then that's fine.
All I really care about is if my list of "songs I haven't seen" continues to dwindle down as time goes on. Every tour since 2004 has given me the opportunity to cross off at least one song I haven't seen, sometimes a few (like HK, TLF, and TBP on the last tour). I think I'm down to about 17 songs, so don't go retiring The Killing Hand or Through Her Eyes just yet please.
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All I really care about is if my list of "songs I haven't seen" continues to dwindle down as time goes on. Every tour since 2004 has given me the opportunity to cross off at least one song I haven't seen, sometimes a few (like HK, TLF, and TBP on the last tour). I think I'm down to about 17 songs, so don't go retiring The Killing Hand or Through Her Eyes just yet please.
This prompted me to take a look at my list of songs I haven't seen yet.
That list includes everything from The Astonishing, which I'm generally ok with (although at some point the album might grab me, and I'll wish I hadn't missed the opportunity). Also, having missed ever tour from FII through SDOIT, there are some large chunks missing for me.
Not including non album tracks (none of which particularly care about), I guess these are the songs I haven't seen that I'd like to see (and, hence, hope don't get "retired"):
Anna Lee
Glass Prison
War Inside My Head
The Test That Stumped Them All
Vacant
Wither
Also, I've never seen either SFaM or SDoIT in its entirety, so I'd like that to happen (but am not holding my breath). The only parts of SFaM I haven't seen are parts I don't really need to see outside the context of the whole thing. Fortunately, I got to see both The Killing Hand and Only a Matter of Time on the I&W tour.
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Same here. Heard everything from SFAM except Through Her Eyes, and most of Six Degrees but not the whole thing. But I have been blessed in hearing everything I wanted to hear in the many times I've seen them, to the point that now I have actually You Not Me on my list of songs I'd like to see played live.
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Oh, cool, I’ll make a list of the DT songs I haven’t seen played live:
- All of them.
:'(
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Oh boy, I hope not! Home is one of my favorites (and I think for a lot of fans). Yeah, it's long, but it's too good to never play again. And they haven't pulled out Nightmare since the Black Clouds tour. I'm hoping for at least one tour with that song with Mangini behind the kit.
As far as what I think should be retired... other than I&W stuff taking a long break, I don't think anything should be "retired." If they never play certain songs again, that's fine. But I hope they keep rotating the set enough that we get enough variety through the final years of the band. I don't need to hear them play Spirit Carries On or Pull Me Under or As I Am again, but if they take a break from those and bring them back in 8-10 years, then that's fine.
All I really care about is if my list of "songs I haven't seen" continues to dwindle down as time goes on.
This sums up my feelings perfectly. It's a shame that I didn't get to catch them on the last tour - especially when DLPM was in the setlist - but I would love to see them rotate more songs into the setlist (or maybe setlists?!?) of the next tour and give a looooooong break to the perennial favorites that always seem to rear their ugly heads (such as the 3 selected as the encore classics at the end of the Astonishing tour).
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I agree, TSCO, AIA and PMU have been overplayed the last few years. And, as much as I love the song, I think BAI should be put to rest for a while. It's been played extensively on 3 out of 5 tours they've done with MM.
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Pull me under is always slightly embarrassing live. Please let it die or figure it out
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Please retire everything from The Astonishing.
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Please retire everything from The Astonishing.
:lol
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Please retire everything from The Astonishing.
Please retire everything before The Astonishing
:P
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I've never thought that Pull Me Under came off that well live, so I'd be fine with that being put away for good, but The Spirit Carries On and As I Am are massive crowd favorites that always get big reactions. Is it really that strange for a band to want to play songs that live crowds always go crazy for?
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I've never thought that Pull Me Under came off that well live, so I'd be fine with that being put away for good, but The Spirit Carries On and As I Am are massive crowd favorites that always get big reactions. Is it really that strange for a band to want to play songs that live crowds always go crazy for?
But I've heard those songs live before and they should cater to ME!
Honestly, apart from PMU and Metropolis, which probably can't be avoided completely due to their popularity, I'd be fine with the band retiring I&W and the most difficult songs on Awake like Caught in a Web, given that James is having a hard time with that stuff even despite the downtuning and vocal melody variations.
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I've never thought that Pull Me Under came off that well live, so I'd be fine with that being put away for good, but The Spirit Carries On and As I Am are massive crowd favorites that always get big reactions. Is it really that strange for a band to want to play songs that live crowds always go crazy for?
We've already had this discussion before. If that was the mentality the band went with (playing songs that live crowds always go crazy for), then a good 90 minutes or more of the setlist would automatically be filled with songs like Metropolis, The Mirror/Lie, TDEN, ACoS, etc. besides PMU, AIA and TSCO, leaving 30 to 60 minutes (depending on if headlining or evening with gigs) to be filled with new material and a couple of "deep" album cuts. Is it really that strange for fans to not want to see the same set of songs over and over, not just from show to show, but tour to tour?
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I get what people are saying about re-working the melodies instead of never playing the songs again BUTT LaBrie's high parts are a big part of what makes those songs so fucking good. However, I'd rather he re-work the melodies or whatever rather than never hearing Metropolis Part I ever again.
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I've never thought that Pull Me Under came off that well live, so I'd be fine with that being put away for good, but The Spirit Carries On and As I Am are massive crowd favorites that always get big reactions. Is it really that strange for a band to want to play songs that live crowds always go crazy for?
We've already had this discussion before. If that was the mentality the band went with (playing songs that live crowds always go crazy for), then a good 90 minutes or more of the setlist would automatically be filled with songs like Metropolis, The Mirror/Lie, TDEN, ACoS, etc. besides PMU, AIA and TSCO, leaving 30 to 60 minutes (depending on if headlining or evening with gigs) to be filled with new material and a couple of "deep" album cuts. Is it really that strange for fans to not want to see the same set of songs over and over, not just from show to show, but tour to tour?
No one said they should play all of the songs the crowd goes crazy for, and they do not play The Spirit Carries On and As I Am at every show. Far from it.
And they do not play the same set of songs over and over, from tour to tour. They have done an outstanding job this decade of changing up the sets from tour to tour.
Accepting the fact that I know you will never be happy with what they do with the set lists sans Portnoy no matter what, I'm not really sure what you were getting at with that post, to be honest.
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For tours, they can play whatever. But for the next DVD, I would really like it if they didn't release songs that are on multiple DVD's already. I dunno. Just me, I guess.
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No one said they should play all of the songs the crowd goes crazy for,
No, but you're basically implying that they should play some of them at every show with the rhetorical question at the end of your post.
and they do not play The Spirit Carries On and As I Am at every show. And they do not play the same set of songs over and over, from tour to tour. They have done an outstanding job this decade of changing up the sets from tour to tour.
I'm aware of this, although TSCO, AIA, PMU and BAI have been included in the MM-era setlists more often than any other songs. It would be nice for them to give these overplayed songs (and by that, I don't just mean from the MM-era, but even going back to the MP-era) a rest in favor of more of the catalog that hasn't been played for a while.
They have done an outstanding job this decade of changing up the sets from tour to tour.
Agreed, but given the lack of rotating setlists, how about they play a completely different setlist on each tour with nothing repeated (aside from a couple songs that were new from the previous album cycle)? Considering the sizable catalog they have, and the number of fan favorites within it, it's something they could easily do for several tours.
I'm not really sure what you were getting at with that post, to be honest.
Quite simply, I'm rebutting your implication that the band should include certain songs at every show they play, just because the crowd goes crazy for them.
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For tours, they can play whatever. But for the next DVD, I would really like it if they didn't release songs that are on multiple DVD's already. I dunno. Just me, I guess.
Totally not just you. They blew it by playing most of 6DoIT on LaB and then the entire thing on the very next one (SCORE)... and this was when MP controlled every set list and had the master plans in his Finder Binder.
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No one said they should play all of the songs the crowd goes crazy for,
No, but you're basically implying that they should play some of them at every show with the rhetorical question at the end of your post.
I'm not really sure what you were getting at with that post, to be honest.
Quite simply, I'm rebutting your implication that the band should include certain songs at every show they play, just because the crowd goes crazy for them.
That is not what I was implying. Maybe focus on what I actually said?
They have done an outstanding job this decade of changing up the sets from tour to tour.
Agreed, but given the lack of rotating setlists, how about they play a completely different setlist on each tour with nothing repeated (aside from a couple songs that were new from the previous album cycle)? Considering the sizable catalog they have, and the number of fan favorites within it, it's something they could easily do for several tours.
The DT12 tour did exactly that, playing nothing that had been played on the prior tour (aside from the two ADTOE songs). And it included two older songs that had never been played live (The Shattered Fortress and Space Dye Vest).
Most of the TA era was all songs never played before (yes, all new, but it still counts).
Heck, even last year's I&W anniversary tour for a while featured about as deep a Dream Theater cut as you will find that had never been played (Don't Look past Me). I would call that especially special.
What else ya got?
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I think the setlists have been great since MP left, although I do miss the unpredictability aspect of seeing them live and not having a clue of what we'd get. They foind a great solution on the ADTOE tour, where two or three spots had rotating songs every night - you kinda knew what you'd get, but at the same time things could change in the last minute. I think Metallica and Rush have done that too, and it works well in my book.
I love Metropolis, Pull Me under and As I Am, and have no problem with them playing those songs on every tour. The one song I think should be retired is TSCO. I posted about The Astonishing above, but if we ever get songs from it again it will last only 3 or 4 minutes in a 3 hour show, so I really can't complain.
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No one said they should play all of the songs the crowd goes crazy for,
No, but you're basically implying that they should play some of them at every show with the rhetorical question at the end of your post.
I'm not really sure what you were getting at with that post, to be honest.
Quite simply, I'm rebutting your implication that the band should include certain songs at every show they play, just because the crowd goes crazy for them.
That is not what I was implying. Maybe focus on what I actually said?
Argue all you want, but I know this is how you feel, since it's something you've already brought up previously.
They have done an outstanding job this decade of changing up the sets from tour to tour.
Agreed, but given the lack of rotating setlists, how about they play a completely different setlist on each tour with nothing repeated (aside from a couple songs that were new from the previous album cycle)? Considering the sizable catalog they have, and the number of fan favorites within it, it's something they could easily do for several tours.
The DT12 tour did exactly that, playing nothing that had been played on the prior tour (aside from the two ADTOE songs). And it included two older songs that had never been played live (The Shattered Fortress and Space Dye Vest).
I'll give you that, and I was happy to see things changed up, not featuring a single IaW song (aside from at a few festival dates).
Most of the TA era was all songs never played before (yes, all new, but it still counts).
True, but when they did decide to cut some TA songs and add an encore, what did they play? AIA, TSCO and PMU.
Heck, even last year's I&W anniversary tour for a while featured about as deep a Dream Theater cut as you will find that had never been played (Don't Look past Me). I would call that especially special.
That was especially special. And major props for them finally playing it. Only problem was, that song was only featured on the very last leg of the tour. Not only that, it was dropped halfway into the leg of that tour, and TLF shortly after that. And what were they both replaced with? TSCO. Yet again.
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Heck, even last year's I&W anniversary tour for a while featured about as deep a Dream Theater cut as you will find that had never been played (Don't Look past Me). I would call that especially special.
That was especially special. And major props for them finally playing it. Only problem was, that song was only featured on the very last leg of the tour. Not only that, it was dropped halfway into the leg of that tour, and TLF shortly after that. And what were they both replaced with? TSCO. Yet again.
Yeah, the dropping of those songs was really disappointing. I was lucky enough to hear TLF before they dropped it, but unlucky enough to be the second show after DLPM was dropped. It's just something that I don't get. The show is supposed to be a special night focusing on I&W, so JP decides to pull out a couple B-sides from that era. Obviously not everyone will be familiar with those songs. But die-hards, like myself, go crazy for stuff like that. And it seems the lack of audience response was the reason for the change. But what gets me, is that the songs were not even introduced! Maybe if they took a minute to explain what was coming, the audience would have given a little more appreciation towards the band. And also, I find it funny that the band seems to NEED the best reaction for every song. They already had AIA, PMU, the rest of I&W, and ACOS in the setlist. They couldn't play 6-10 minutes of obscurity for the sake of their die-hard fans who maybe (definitely, in the case of DLPM) have never had the opportunity to see these songs? Nope, lets bring out The Spirit Carries On. Again.
I know it seems like complaining, but some people would really rather hear something live they have never heard, even if it's an "inferior" song, than a "better, more well liked" song for the fourth or fifth time.
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In my opinion, no song should ever be retired -- not an I&W song, not a WDADU song, not a Majesty track should be put on a "Never to be played, ever!" list. James LaBrie very clearly couldn't keep up with a full album performance of I&W as-is, so they tuned it down a semitone. Rush did that, even going further than that for some songs, and it allowed them to continue playing classic fan favourite songs up to and on the R40 tour that Geddy Lee simply couldn't keep up with anymore.
So, in terms of LaBrie potentially having trouble with some songs -- not an issue, IMO. DT have shown they're willing to tune songs down, it went down a treat, no reason they can't continue to do that for any problematic songs or runs of songs, and as always, any particular sections of songs, LaBrie can easily just sing an altered melody(See: Take The Time circa 2002, Learning To Live circa 1999-2002, Don't Look Past Me circa 2017). So, in terms of taking songs out of rotation for vocal reasons, I would say absolutely not.
With that out of the way, the only thing that really leaves is the idea of songs that shouldn't be played for reasons such as the songs themselves being "Bad"(Bad is in quotes as I would say it's a poor word to use, given how subjective all this is), or personal significance, like with Best Of Times. I think the thing about all this is that if the band feels the time is right to play any given song, they should play it. Whether that means bringing out New Millennium(A song JLB isn't a fan of, and thus is unlikely to be played live again) for one last time before retiring it, or doing whatever is necessary for it to be okay for them to play The Best Of Times, even if it's only done as a one-off under special conditions.
So, I don't think any song should ever be off the table. No, not even Raw Dog.
Though, having said that, I'd be really glad if they do stick with the idea of never doing any medleys of any kind ever again; if you're going to play 10-15 minutes of instrumental greatness, just play Stream Of Consciousness in full. Instrumedley was a pretty neat thing, but I'd prefer just hearing a handful of the individual songs contained within it than hearing just little bits and pieces.
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Most of the TA era was all songs never played before (yes, all new, but it still counts).
True, but when they did decide to cut some TA songs and add an encore, what did they play? AIA, TSCO and PMU.
True. But while I have to say that while I feel that AIA and TSCO are both overplayed AND some of my least favorite in the DT catalog for songs I would actually want to see live again, they got a REALLY strong response at the show I attended in Reno. The crowd REALLY got into it, and the band looked really energized.
For tours, they can play whatever. But for the next DVD, I would really like it if they didn't release songs that are on multiple DVD's already. I dunno. Just me, I guess.
Totally not just you. They blew it by playing most of 6DoIT on LaB and then the entire thing on the very next one (SCORE)... and this was when MP controlled every set list and had the master plans in his Finder Binder.
I've always felt pretty forgiving of that simply because of how it ended up going down. It was a logical choice for the L@B show, given what they were trying to accomplish. I think, at the time, they didn't really foresee an opportunity to go back and revisit the entire SDOIT song in its entirety for a live release. Not having an official release from the SDOIT tour was really a bummer, and the band wanted to compensate for that a bit by representing it well (although, in retrospect, having TGP or Misunderstood would have been better and would still have fit well with the vibe of that show). I don't remember hardly anyone complaining about the L@B set at the time, or at least not that part of the set. It was only in retrospect when they played the entire song on Score that we could look back and think about what could have been. But the opportunity to do SDOIT with an orchestra was great as well (even if the actual execution of that idea may have fallen a bit short). I dunno. It's just "one of those things."
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For tours, they can play whatever. But for the next DVD, I would really like it if they didn't release songs that are on multiple DVD's already. I dunno. Just me, I guess.
Totally not just you. They blew it by playing most of 6DoIT on LaB and then the entire thing on the very next one (SCORE)... and this was when MP controlled every set list and had the master plans in his Finder Binder.
I've always felt pretty forgiving of that simply because of how it ended up going down. It was a logical choice for the L@B show, given what they were trying to accomplish. I think, at the time, they didn't really foresee an opportunity to go back and revisit the entire SDOIT song in its entirety for a live release. Not having an official release from the SDOIT tour was really a bummer, and the band wanted to compensate for that a bit by representing it well (although, in retrospect, having TGP or Misunderstood would have been better and would still have fit well with the vibe of that show). I don't remember hardly anyone complaining about the L@B set at the time, or at least not that part of the set. It was only in retrospect when they played the entire song on Score that we could look back and think about what could have been. But the opportunity to do SDOIT with an orchestra was great as well (even if the actual execution of that idea may have fallen a bit short). I dunno. It's just "one of those things."
To be honest, I always kinda liked having the multiple different live versions available. Only thing that really makes this an issue for me is the fact that with the Bucharest official bootleg, we have two official, awesome live versions of the full 6DOIT title track, leaving the Budokan pieces as a bit of an oddity... And yet, I think it does kinda fit with the way Budokan took some fairly random things we're all already familiar with and did them in an unusual manner(See: Instrumedley, Beyond This Life with the odd middle-section, Hollow Years), which the other DVDs did significantly less.
I think, in hindsight, it would have been nice to have some of the other tracks off 6DOIT on Budokan, especially if Misunderstood ended up on there, since IIRC that song has never been on a DVD, even if you include Bucharest, which had every other song apart from Disappear, if you include the bonus tracks(Specifically Blind Faith) from Mexico City... But honestly, when we have DVDs as awesome as Budokan, Score, and Bucharest, these are really only minor gripes. I have a hard time actually criticising any of these DVDs.
Though, the one thing I would say against Bucharest is that they should have had a logoless master of the main set produced and put that out -- with the Mexico City bonus tracks -- as a main-line DVD back in 2002/2003. Goddamn awesome DVD, only complaints that could be levelled at it are a couple of minor sound issues(Bass mutes for a few seconds in the middle of Scarred, which could be fixed for a main DVD with an overdub, keyboard switches to the wrong sound for the first few notes in one of the choruses of Lifting Shadows, and the audience is pretty much mute).
If things are as you say, Bosk, then if they'd done this, this might have lead Portnoy to reconsider putting the 6DOIT title track pieces in the Budokan show's set. Might've even resulted in Instrumedley being dropped too, if they threw in a version of that on a hypothetical World Tourbulence DVD as a bonus track instead, possibly with the shorter arrangement of Lines In The Sand they played after it for some shows (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PRFn9y4qcc) on the US leg, where Doug Pinnick joined them for the choruses.
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I don't think the Ytsejam releases would have had any impact on the set, even if they had altered those. The ones you are talking about, if I am not mistaken, were released some time after L@B.
I agree with you on Misunderstood. Again, hindsight is 20/20. But in looking back now, it would have fit perfectly. It would not have made the set any longer if they swapped it for the Goodnight Kiss/Solitary Shell portion. And it would have fit the vibe of the show really well.
For that Lines in the Sand arrangement, you might already know this, but in case you don't: That wasn't for the actual SDOIT tour. That was from the summer tour they did with King's X and Satriani in the U.S. The sets for those shows were pretty good, but somewhat unusual. The thread with those set lists is here: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39071.0 (IMO, the sets for the following summer tour with Queensryche were AMAZING!)
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I don't think the Ytsejam releases would have had any impact on the set, even if they had altered those. The ones you are talking about, if I am not mistaken, were released some time after L@B.
Yes, indeed. As I say though, I'm suggesting they should have released it as a main-line DVD. :)
I agree with you on Misunderstood. Again, hindsight is 20/20. But in looking back now, it would have fit perfectly. It would not have made the set any longer if they swapped it for the Goodnight Kiss/Solitary Shell portion. And it would have fit the vibe of the show really well.
Yep. :)
For that Lines in the Sand arrangement, you might already know this, but in case you don't: That wasn't for the actual SDOIT tour. That was from the summer tour they did with King's X and Satriani in the U.S. The sets for those shows were pretty good, but somewhat unusual. The thread with those set lists is here: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39071.0 (IMO, the sets for the following summer tour with Queensryche were AMAZING!)
Well, I guess... Still, it's more to do with the different legs of the touring for 6DOIT than them being totally different tours alltogether, so I think it would be a worthy inclusion if they were going to do something like that with a DVD.
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For that Lines in the Sand arrangement, you might already know this, but in case you don't: That wasn't for the actual SDOIT tour. That was from the summer tour they did with King's X and Satriani in the U.S. The sets for those shows were pretty good, but somewhat unusual. The thread with those set lists is here: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39071.0 (IMO, the sets for the following summer tour with Queensryche were AMAZING!)
Well, I guess... Still, it's more to do with the different legs of the touring for 6DOIT than them being totally different tours alltogether, so I think it would be a worthy inclusion if they were going to do something like that with a DVD.
Oh, I'm not arguing against the point you are making. I'm just clarifying what that tour was. That and the Escape from the Studio tours they did the following summer weren't really tours "supporting" a particular album. They were cool package tours that just happened to coincide with that album/tour cycle. Does that change anything about your point? Nope. Just providing some background, that's all.
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Most of the TA era was all songs never played before (yes, all new, but it still counts).
True, but when they did decide to cut some TA songs and add an encore, what did they play? AIA, TSCO and PMU.
True. But while I have to say that while I feel that AIA and TSCO are both overplayed AND some of my least favorite in the DT catalog for songs I would actually want to see live again, they got a REALLY strong response at the show I attended in Reno. The crowd REALLY got into it, and the band looked really energized.
I am new fan, and saw TA 3x, (alas, missed IW&B due to ill child, lost forever my meet and greet..), but the first was the entire TA and the next two with the altered setlist. I was so happy to see 3 different songs! And I was in Reno, there was a small Mosh Pit for AIA. I saw Megadeth in the same venue after and no moshing for them....
So, for me, in a different DT place, all their stuff will be a treat! But I hope someday to see 8VM, BAI for sure. (and of course my top 50) ;D
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I edited your post to fix the quote tags.
Yes, I was at that same show. The pit was unexpected and super fun. There was an Asian guy right up against the stage who at one point in the show turned around and said he was going to start a pit during the last song. I laughed, but didn't expect it. Then lo and behold, it happened. :lol
It was actually for Pull Me Under, not As I Am. But still, it was goofy and fun. I know you've posted about it before as well. Were you up there for the pit, or were you back in the seats? James and John were cracking up about it after the show.
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I edited your post to fix the quote tags.
Yes, I was at that same show. The pit was unexpected and super fun. There was an Asian guy right up against the stage who at one point in the show turned around and said he was going to start a pit during the last song. I laughed, but didn't expect it. Then lo and behold, it happened. :lol
It was actually for Pull Me Under, not As I Am. But still, it was goofy and fun. I know you've posted about it before as well. Were you up there for the pit, or were you back in the seats? James and John were cracking up about it after the show.
Thanks for the edit, I saw that when I was reviewing but couldn't fix or delete. Not that computer savvy. Why I can't follow the Jacoby puzzles either!!lol. Yes, my hubby and I were against stage in front of JP, the moshing just on my left. :mehlin I cannot wait for All the DT shows I am going to see, hope my hubby doesn't cut me off after 2 or 3 each tour.... :laugh:
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Oh, wow. So I must have seen you there, because I was only a few feet to your left. I was right in between James and JP, so I was right in the pit when it started. You weren't the brown-haired girl that was moshing, were you (or maybe she/you was blonde--my memory is a bit hazy)? I just remember that once it started, someone would bounce into me, I'd get knocked back a couple of feet, I'd knock into someone else, and they'd get knocked back a couple of feet, she'd bounce into me...and bounce right off without moving me. :lol
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Oh, wow. So I must have seen you there, because I was only a few feet to your left. I was right in between James and JP, so I was right in the pit when it started. You weren't the brown-haired girl that was moshing, were you (or maybe she/you was blonde--my memory is a bit hazy)? I just remember that once it started, someone would bounce into me, I'd get knocked back a couple of feet, I'd knock into someone else, and they'd get knocked back a couple of feet, she'd bounce into me...and bounce right off without moving me. :lol
Nah, I didn't mosh. I am getting a bit (ahem) old I think...But I am tall, my hubby taller, with brown hair. I wonder if we even chatted, we must have been standing next to one another....
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For that Lines in the Sand arrangement, you might already know this, but in case you don't: That wasn't for the actual SDOIT tour. That was from the summer tour they did with King's X and Satriani in the U.S. The sets for those shows were pretty good, but somewhat unusual. The thread with those set lists is here: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39071.0 (IMO, the sets for the following summer tour with Queensryche were AMAZING!)
Well, I guess... Still, it's more to do with the different legs of the touring for 6DOIT than them being totally different tours alltogether, so I think it would be a worthy inclusion if they were going to do something like that with a DVD.
Oh, I'm not arguing against the point you are making. I'm just clarifying what that tour was. That and the Escape from the Studio tours they did the following summer weren't really tours "supporting" a particular album. They were cool package tours that just happened to coincide with that album/tour cycle. Does that change anything about your point? Nope. Just providing some background, that's all.
Ah right. Cheers. :)
It is interesting how those tour cycles work, though it does mean oddities like the A Change Of Seasons section of the Awake tour makes the Awake tour cycle slightly hard to pin a name to, with two main studio releases being promoted across its run. :lol
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The Spirit Carries On, Fatal Tragedy - or really mostly everything from SFAM. And yes, I did buy tickets for the upcoming show anyway...
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The Spirit Carries On, Fatal Tragedy - or really mostly everything from SFAM. And yes, I did buy tickets for the upcoming show anyway...
This probably cancels out the possibility of a live dvd release of this tour since the entire Scenes show has been documented before (Live Scenes from New York). I hope I'm wrong.
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The Spirit Carries On, Fatal Tragedy - or really mostly everything from SFAM. And yes, I did buy tickets for the upcoming show anyway...
This probably cancels out the possibility of a live dvd release of this tour since the entire Scenes show has been documented before (Live Scenes from New York). I hope I'm wrong.
They could still do a 2nd leg with no scenes. I hope they do that.
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The Spirit Carries On, Fatal Tragedy - or really mostly everything from SFAM. And yes, I did buy tickets for the upcoming show anyway...
This probably cancels out the possibility of a live dvd release of this tour since the entire Scenes show has been documented before (Live Scenes from New York). I hope I'm wrong.
They could still do a 2nd leg with no scenes. I hope they do that.
Yeah...does anyone legitimately think they're only going to play 28 North American dates in support of this album?
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Most of the songs I wish they would never play again are songs that they probably aren't ever going to play again anyway, so I'm good.
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I could live without hearing most of the 12 Steps Suite although I’d like them to bring back The Glass Prison at some stage. I could also happily not hear anything off Octavarium although I’d like to hear the title track live at least once as I missed that tour. I’m not even a massive lover of the title track but would be cool to hear it just once. The rest of the album I’ve no desire to hear live, I don’t hate it but it’s my least favourite.
Other than that I’m fairly open to anything else.
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Illumination Theory: There really is no reason to take up 25% of the setlist with this clugger. Decent song, but should be top of the permanent moratorium list.
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1. Anything from The Astonishing aside from Our New World