The Measles Thread

[Chino]

[orcus116]

I would love to see these peoples insurance premiums sky rocket, although I'm guessing from a legal standpoint they could claim discrimination of personal ideology. Maybe someone with a legal background could confirm.

[Stadler]

Where do you draw the line?

I don't know that you can draw a line? I just don't see how the government/whomever can mandate how someone raises their kids....it's an impossible answer on 'where' we draw the line. I think you can certainly mandate vaccines/shots for public schools/day care or any other public institution where your child could possibly expose or be exposed to communicable diseases....but an all out mandate that you HAVE to do something just won't and can't happen.

If you don't want to vaccinate and the school/day care mandates it....i suppose you just keep moving around until you find a place that doesn't mandate it and that is that and all whom attend said institution assume the risk of infection and infecting people.

Why are we even worried about drawing the line?   NO CHOICE in this world is without consequences.   Let the parents make the choices they see fit, but also let them accept the consequences.    Do you think I LIKED making my child cry when the needle came out?   The poor kid was PETRIFIED of needles.  But her mom and I felt the consequences were such that that was the smaller mountain to overcome.   Let them deny the vaccine; but that then means HOME SCHOOL.   Let them deny the vaccine; but that means INSURANCE DOESN'T PAY FOR THE SICKNESS WHEN IT HITS.   

I'm with gmillerdrake; I don't want anyone telling me how to parent, so I can't tell them.  But we can all live by the same risk/reward equation, and we can all weigh the same impacts and deal with the same consequences.   

[orcus116]

I think one of the issues is that the reason the choice exists to these parents is because they actually believe bogus, well refuted claims about vaccines which hold no merit and they're too stubborn to see or believe it. They've really got no one else to blame but themselves for someone wanting to make this particular parent choice for them because the positives of vaccines vastly outweigh any potential negatives to the point where it's not a choice but really a no brainer and just plain common sense.

[kirksnosehair]

Tell you what, as far as I'm concerned any parent that doesn't have their kids vaccinated should face some kind of civil penalty at the least. 

One easy way for the penalty would be if the health insurance increased its premium on you because your child isn't vaccinated. I've always said it, the best way to change behaviors is through their pockets. Same thing with smokers. If you smoke and make no attempt to quit, the insurance should increase your premium. Kinda how car insurances increase their premium with each fender bender you have.

I like this idea 

[kirksnosehair]

Where do you draw the line?

I don't know that you can draw a line? I just don't see how the government/whomever can mandate how someone raises their kids....it's an impossible answer on 'where' we draw the line. I think you can certainly mandate vaccines/shots for public schools/day care or any other public institution where your child could possibly expose or be exposed to communicable diseases....but an all out mandate that you HAVE to do something just won't and can't happen.

If you don't want to vaccinate and the school/day care mandates it....i suppose you just keep moving around until you find a place that doesn't mandate it and that is that and all whom attend said institution assume the risk of infection and infecting people.

Why are we even worried about drawing the line?   NO CHOICE in this world is without consequences.   Let the parents make the choices they see fit, but also let them accept the consequences.    Do you think I LIKED making my child cry when the needle came out?   The poor kid was PETRIFIED of needles.  But her mom and I felt the consequences were such that that was the smaller mountain to overcome.   Let them deny the vaccine; but that then means HOME SCHOOL.   Let them deny the vaccine; but that means INSURANCE DOESN'T PAY FOR THE SICKNESS WHEN IT HITS.   

I'm with gmillerdrake; I don't want anyone telling me how to parent, so I can't tell them.  But we can all live by the same risk/reward equation, and we can all weigh the same impacts and deal with the same consequences.

But you're missing the point.  The whole concept of vaccinations is to prevent illness.  Stupidity in the face of undeniable fact should not go unpunished, especially when said stupidity results in sickening and even killing other people.  All because some idiot doesn't believe water is wet?


We can't allow idiot parents to make idiot decisions because the consequences to others are much too great.  Vaccinations should be mandated by law under the penalty of complete and total isolation from the rest of society.  If someone wants to be a stubborn moron and put others at danger, as far as I'm concerned they've forfeited their right to be a member of our society.


Are we gonna go back to bloodletting and frontal lobotomy to fix depression now too?


We know vaccines save lives.  Where I come from, this is called an unmitigated fact.  Measles was completely eradicated in the United States by 1998.  It existed only in laboratories here in the states.  We had beaten it!  Only the power of human stupidity and hubris could reverse such a great achievement.


 

[Stadler]

But you're missing the point.  The whole concept of vaccinations is to prevent illness.  Stupidity in the face of undeniable fact should not go unpunished, especially when said stupidity results in sickening and even killing other people.  All because some idiot doesn't believe water is wet?


We can't allow idiot parents to make idiot decisions because the consequences to others are much too great.  Vaccinations should be mandated by law under the penalty of complete and total isolation from the rest of society.  If someone wants to be a stubborn moron and put others at danger, as far as I'm concerned they've forfeited their right to be a member of our society.


Are we gonna go back to bloodletting and frontal lobotomy to fix depression now too?


We know vaccines save lives.  Where I come from, this is called an unmitigated fact.  Measles was completely eradicated in the United States by 1998.  It existed only in laboratories here in the states.  We had beaten it!  Only the power of human stupidity and hubris could reverse such a great achievement.

No, I get the point, and you are preaching to the choir on this one.

Maybe this isn't the time and place, but I'm trying to balance the bigger picture; the notion of public safety with the notion of freedom of thought.  I don't argue with you one bit about the "unmitigated fact" in this instance, and I accept that as well.    I guess what I'm doing is leaving a carve out for where it isn't "unmitigated", or where there might be some room for discussion.   And why I am doing this is not really to do with vaccines, but in other areas.  I'm always leering whenever someone says "there is no debate".   It always strikes me that more often than not that is a tactic to avoid what is a real, and legitimate debate.  Again, NOT vaccines, but there are other areas where some believe it is "unmitigated" and it is anything but (gun control is one).   

[orcus116]

I understand the danger of setting a precedent but at the almost futile, infighting laden pace that the government moves I can't really see a sudden barrage of "for the greater good" rights stripping if some mandate for vaccines manages to pass.

[Harmony]

Making antivaxxers home school and pay for their own medical care when they or their kids get sick sounds like a good start, but doesn't go far enough, antivaxxers don't just impact their own families, they impact people who cannot get vaccinated - like infants, people receiving some forms of chemotherapy, people on immune suppressant drugs.  They also impact the health and very lives of people for whom the vaccine didn't fully protect.  So how about we make the antivaxxers pay for those people's medical bills while we are at it?

The problems with the home schooling idea are - do we really want people ignorant of basic science in charge of teaching basic science to children?

How do we keep these unvaccinated children out of other public arenas such as Disneyland?

And when my newborn gets Whooping Cough and dies because of some other ignorant's choice or paranoia or need to believe there are conspiracies everywhere I will sue them for every last penny they have for their supreme negligence.  THAT is the only way things are going to change.  When enough people feel the sting of lawsuits for negligence and when schools and daycare centers are so concerned with being sued they enforce strict vaccine policies.

[Calvin6s]

But you're missing the point.  The whole concept of vaccinations is to prevent illness.  Stupidity in the face of undeniable fact should not go unpunished, especially when said stupidity results in sickening and even killing other people. 

But wouldn't those that forego the measles vax shot only risking others that forego the vax shot?  If you want them "out of society", aren't their decisions just allowing that to happen?

[Chino]

But you're missing the point.  The whole concept of vaccinations is to prevent illness.  Stupidity in the face of undeniable fact should not go unpunished, especially when said stupidity results in sickening and even killing other people. 

But wouldn't those that forego the measles vax shot only risking others that forego the vax shot?  If you want them "out of society", aren't their decisions just allowing that to happen?

No.

There are people that get the vaccine and their body doesn't take or build immunity. Those people are still vulnerable (not by choice). There are also millions of babies that are too young for vaccines whose health is compromised when others around them aren't immune. There are people who were vaccinated decades ago, and over time their immunity wore off. These people are sometimes unknowingly vulnerable to something they thought they were safe from. That's why we have boosters. Then there's also the possibility of non-vaxxers carrying a virus and now giving it the opportunity to evolve and get around the vaccines that have been proven successful for decades.

[TempusVox]

Now just imagine in a few years this is now the "Smallpox Thread". Don't think it can't happen? Just wait.

The ignorance of some people amazes me. I see it everyday. One of my neighbors swears vaccines are some great government conspiracy. Her kids were vaccinated because here it's the law before they can start school. But still. She preaches how evil they are. It's scary because so many others believe the same thing.

[Harmony]

But you're missing the point.  The whole concept of vaccinations is to prevent illness.  Stupidity in the face of undeniable fact should not go unpunished, especially when said stupidity results in sickening and even killing other people. 

But wouldn't those that forego the measles vax shot only risking others that forego the vax shot?  If you want them "out of society", aren't their decisions just allowing that to happen?

No. There are people that get the vaccine and their body doesn't take or build immunity. They are still vulnerable. There are also millions of babies that are too young for vaccines whose health is compromised when others around them aren't immune. Then there's also the possibility of non-vaxxers carrying a virus and now giving it the opportunity to evolve and get around the vaccines that have proven successful for decades.

My niece attends elementary school with a boy who has leukemia.  He cannot receive vaccines while his immune system is suppressed during treatment and because his immune system is suppressed, another kid in his classroom who has not been vaccinated and brings measles into the classroom could very likely kill him.  Herd immunity would normally protect children like this, but ignorance on the part of antivaxxers puts his life in jeopardy.  Again.

Selfish people would probably suggest that perhaps he shouldn't be in school while he is being treated for leukemia - even though he has been cleared by his oncologist -  and those people should probably stop and ask themselves how much time his parents have already missed from work while their son was hospitalized and just how far his treatments would go should the parent with the health insurance plan attached to their employment were to lose their job or have to leave their job in order to home school him.  Not to mention the fact that this kid shouldn't be penalized for being sick by not being allowed an education.

[Calvin6s]

others around them aren't immune.

And who are these infected people?  The debate seems to be way too one sided right now.

[Chino]

others around them aren't immune.

And who are these infected people?  The debate seems to be way too one sided right now.

1) People who received vaccines and they didn't build immunity.
2) Children who are too young to receive a vaccine.
3) Children with medical conditions that prevent them from receiving a vaccine.
4) People who had a vaccine that has worn off in time.
5) Antivaxxers

[Calvin6s]

others around them aren't immune.

And who are these infected people?  The debate seems to be way too one sided right now.

1) People who received vaccines and they didn't build immunity.
2) Children who are too young to receive a vaccine.
3) Children with medical conditions that prevent them from receiving a vaccine.
4) People who had a vaccine that has worn off in time.
5) Antivaxxers

Really?  So if you don't get a vax, the measles just magically appear?  Interesting.  I never received an ebola vax.  Could I just wake up with it tomorrow?

[Chino]

What the hell are you talking about? I have no idea where you are going with that statement. Are you implying that due to numbers one through four, the people of number five should also be allowed to be carriers?

[Stadler]

Making antivaxxers home school and pay for their own medical care when they or their kids get sick sounds like a good start, but doesn't go far enough, antivaxxers don't just impact their own families, they impact people who cannot get vaccinated - like infants, people receiving some forms of chemotherapy, people on immune suppressant drugs.  They also impact the health and very lives of people for whom the vaccine didn't fully protect.  So how about we make the antivaxxers pay for those people's medical bills while we are at it?

The problems with the home schooling idea are - do we really want people ignorant of basic science in charge of teaching basic science to children?

How do we keep these unvaccinated children out of other public arenas such as Disneyland?

And when my newborn gets Whooping Cough and dies because of some other ignorant's choice or paranoia or need to believe there are conspiracies everywhere I will sue them for every last penny they have for their supreme negligence.  THAT is the only way things are going to change.  When enough people feel the sting of lawsuits for negligence and when schools and daycare centers are so concerned with being sued they enforce strict vaccine policies.

Okay, I backed off a little with the "may not be the time and place", but apparently it is, because the above is exactly what I was hoping to avoid.   Yes, there are standards for all, but I have a hard time forcing these people to do what we want in this case, because at some point, someone is going to force me - someone who IS educated, who DOESN'T have their head in the sand, and who IS willing to accept the consequences for his actions - to do something I don't want to do.  Actually, that point is already dangerously close to being here (Hello, ACA). 

You HAVE to give people a choice, even if it is a hollow one.   I'm not 100% sure what you were going for with the science (unless you mean, if they believe the science doesn't support vaccines, then any lessons they teach are by definition flawed) but they can teach them anything they want, as long as I don't have to hire them when they are in the work force.  This is moving progressively toward fundamental principles as opposed to a specific issue, and on that, suffice to say I am capital L, Libertarian.   I readily admit that the system isn't set up that way presently, and because we have increased the degree to which we are carrying those who make bad choices (as opposed to something I heartily agree with, that is, carrying those that can't choose to begin with) we almost HAVE to drive their choices for them.

As the great sage Ronald J. Padavona once said, "Life's fantasy... to be locked away and still to think you're free!"

[Stadler]

But you're missing the point.  The whole concept of vaccinations is to prevent illness.  Stupidity in the face of undeniable fact should not go unpunished, especially when said stupidity results in sickening and even killing other people. 

But wouldn't those that forego the measles vax shot only risking others that forego the vax shot?  If you want them "out of society", aren't their decisions just allowing that to happen?

No. There are people that get the vaccine and their body doesn't take or build immunity. They are still vulnerable. There are also millions of babies that are too young for vaccines whose health is compromised when others around them aren't immune. Then there's also the possibility of non-vaxxers carrying a virus and now giving it the opportunity to evolve and get around the vaccines that have proven successful for decades.

My niece attends elementary school with a boy who has leukemia.  He cannot receive vaccines while his immune system is suppressed during treatment and because his immune system is suppressed, another kid in his classroom who has not been vaccinated and brings measles into the classroom could very likely kill him.  Herd immunity would normally protect children like this, but ignorance on the part of antivaxxers puts his life in jeopardy.  Again.

Selfish people would probably suggest that perhaps he shouldn't be in school while he is being treated for leukemia - even though he has been cleared by his oncologist -  and those people should probably stop and ask themselves how much time his parents have already missed from work while their son was hospitalized and just how far his treatments would go should the parent with the health insurance plan attached to their employment were to lose their job or have to leave their job in order to home school him.  Not to mention the fact that this kid shouldn't be penalized for being sick by not being allowed an education.

I don't mean to target you; it's just that you are saying some interesting things (I mean that in a positive way).   Why would you say "selfish"?   

In premise I agree with you, but philosophically, why do the needs and desires of that one kid (the child with leukemia) weigh more than the needs and desires of any other kid?  Who gets to decide that?    And I'm not asking this to be argumentative; given the list provided by Chino, the anti-vaxxers are changing the odds, but the notion that "but for the anti-vaxxers there would be no measles" strikes me as flawed reasoning.  Doesn't the child with leukemia have to protect against the others on that list (not to mention diseases and infections that are not subject to vaccination)?

[Calvin6s]

What the hell are you talking about?

Really?  Come on.  Stop contorting.

Disney Measles Outbreak Came From Overseas, CDC Says

As I said.  Myopic debate.

[TempusVox]

Stadler, you can't have it both ways. If you truly believe that all individuals have the right to choose for themselves, then that means that you must believe in at the very least creating a level playing field so to speak to enable everyone to have the opportunity to choose without fear of harm. You can't say everyone has the right to choose, so long as it falls in line with my beliefs. That anyone who cannot be vaccinated is just what, "shit out of luck" because forcing others to do something to help eliminate the spread of disease is wrong? I mean why don't we just allow people to not use public toilets to remove and control human waste? Isn't that the same thing? If we allowed people to just take a dump wherever they felt like it, that leads to the spread of disease quicker than just about anything you can imagine. Forcing people to use indoor plumbing in populated areas is a form of "control" is it not?

And a large contributor to this current outbreak of measles IS the antivaxxers. We had pretty much eliminated or controlled the spread of measles in this country by the herd immunity concept. It's a numbers game. More people refuse to vaccinate their kids, the greater the chance, and the likelihood, for the spread of the disease.

People like Jenny McCarthy have done serious damage to the foundation of the vaccination effort. It used to be that people were just playing Russian Roulette before the various vaccines became available. Take Polio for instance, people lined up like crazy to get their families immunized once the vaccine was developed. Then it became more of an education thing. People who came from countries who didn't know about the importance of immunizations, and those who came from poorer area's who were either too illiterate or too poor to know  why it was important or have the means to do so became the targets of the educational efforts. Then when the antivax movement really took off, it was an uphill battle for the health community because they were seen as co-conspirators in some vast effort to what, kill off kids?

Unless you have some medical reason NOT to be immunized, it should be mandatory. As part of the human race, there are certain expectations that should be required of all of us.

I guess a couple of work around scenarios on this matter should be 1) Insurance companies should have the right to deny coverage for people who could otherwise get vaccinated. So if you refuse to have your child immunized for any other reason than a bonafide health condition that prevents it, then they have the right to not cover the child with insurance; and 2) allow a public school to require that parents keep their children out of school in the event of an outbreak of a contagious disease for which they refused vaccination, and not allow the children back into school until the threat has been deemed to have ended by public health authorities. This way, the parents must weigh their perceived risk of vaccinating their child against the risk of their child missing a significant amount of school days, and potentially being held back again and again.

[El Barto]

Or, another option is just to pass a law that says to immunize your fucking children.

I fully get the position of GMD et al, in that it should be the responsibility of parent's to make decisions about their kid's welfare and I support it wholeheartedly. At the same time there are clearly defined boundaries which society as agreed trump that right. You can't fuck your kids just because it's how you were raised. You can't leave your 2 year old at home alone all night because "the government can't force me to pay for a babysitter!" You can't force your kid to wave Chinese vipers around to earn God's favor and then deny him treatment when he gets bitten because Jesus thinks anti-venom is icky. The underlying theme is here is that you can't cause undo harm to your kids, and I'm not sure why we're looking at this any differently.

[Ben_Jamin]

I'm sorry, but this is just lol...LMAO...Jk status to me.

For fucks sakes we have so many things that can kill us all in a flash.

This is like the Ebola outbreak times 5.

Reminds me of Mrs. Lovejoy from The Simpsons "Won't somebody think of the children"

Stupid Media....

[Podaar]

What the hell are you talking about?

Really?  Come on.  Stop contorting.

Disney Measles Outbreak Came From Overseas, CDC Says

As I said.  Myopic debate.

I'm missing your point Calvin6. The article you link to supports everything that Chino and other's have been posting.

"We assume that someone got infected with measles overseas, visited Disneyland park, and spread the disease to others."

"This is a wake-up call to make sure that we keep measles from regaining a foothold in our country," Schuchat said.

The reason it's spreading is simple. People have failed to get vaccinated, Schuchat said.

Most Americans have been vaccinated but some cannot get the vaccine for medical reasons — if they have a damaged or compromised immune system, for instance. Babies under a year old are not vaccinated because their bodies don't really respond well to the vaccine and it doesn't protect them.

But the biggest problem is people who skip vaccines for philosophical reasons, said Schuchat.

"It is frustrating that some people have opted out of vaccination," she said. "I think we do have some communities with many who have not received vaccines."

Maybe you could elaborate on "the other side" of the argument?

[Nick]

Or, another option is just to pass a law that says to immunize your fucking children.

I fully get the position of GMD et al, in that it should be the responsibility of parent's to make decisions about their kid's welfare and I support it wholeheartedly. At the same time there are clearly defined boundaries which society as agreed trump that right. You can't fuck your kids just because it's how you were raised. You can't leave your 2 year old at home alone all night because "the government can't force me to pay for a babysitter!" You can't force your kid to wave Chinese vipers around to earn God's favor and then deny him treatment when he gets bitten because Jesus thinks anti-venom is icky. The underlying theme is here is that you can't cause undo harm to your kids, and I'm not sure why we're looking at this any differently.

Bingo. Measles and other vaccines are not a personal choice issue, they are a public health issue. And because of the benefits of herd immunity, and because everyone should have their essential vaccines, and it benefits everyone it is a clear cut case of something that should be free to everyone. And I would be fully supportive of any action that would result in parents who do not have their children vaccinated being held accountable for endangerment and negligence.

On a lighter note, I saw this the other day.

[Calvin6s]

Maybe you could elaborate on "the other side" of the argument?

I already mentioned it earlier.
Restrict travel to and from locations that don't have the same level of vaccination as the US.  If you don't get a vax shot, then you are denied a passport (since you are fine in the US, but not fine outside in certain areas).  That is assuming it is somebody from the US that went on vacation outside the US, got measles, and brought it back.

But the odds are low on that because that would mean the vacation was to, for instance, the Phillipines and not to Disneyland USA.  So restrict acces to the USA without vax shots.  Of course, how do you do that when we now have an open border policy?

That's the real problem.  The measles just doesn't develop out of thin air.  You don't not get a measles shot, hang around people without measles, and then get the measles virus.

The other ideas sound a bit ridiculous.  Force insurance premiums to go up for said people by passing a law.  Suddenly the insurance companies are our friends.

[orcus116]

Calvin I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. You seem to be fixated on the origin of an outbreak whereas everyone else is arguing about the spread of the disease which are two different things.

On a lighter note, I saw this the other day.

You mean at the top of this page? 

[Podaar]

Calvin6s,

I must have missed your earlier post. Sorry.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree up to a point. I have no problem getting my boosters prior to travel and wouldn't have any heartburn with being required to get them prior to receiving my passport. However, the larger point of the article you linked to was that if full vaccination rates of the visitors at Disneyland had been in place, the spread of the disease would have been much, much lower. The article attributed most of the cases to people who hadn't been vaccinated and specifically said the biggest problem was 'philosophical reasons'. I don't know if that's true (it's just one article) but it did seem to support the argument that wider vaccinations domestically would benefit public health by limiting the spread of measles.

[Podaar]

I thought this was funny and perhaps relevant to the discussion.

[Calvin6s]

I understand what you are saying, and I agree up to a point. I have no problem getting my boosters prior to travel and wouldn't have any heartburn with being required to get them prior to receiving my passport. However, the larger point of the article you linked to was that if full vaccination rates of the visitors at Disneyland had been in place, the spread of the disease would have been much, much lower. The article attributed most of the cases to people who hadn't been vaccinated and specifically said the biggest problem was 'philosophical reasons'. I don't know if that's true (it's just one article) but it did seem to support the argument that wider vaccinations domestically would benefit public health by limiting the spread of measles.

Just to have some context here, I live in Orange County, CA.  I know Anaheim very well.  Anaheim is home to a VERY LARGE illegal population from Central/South America.  The herd mentality works in the theory that a population has a population that grew up in similar circumstances where vax shots were just a part of growing up.  But when you introduce large numbers as opposed to "small exceptions" the herd theory breaks down.

PDF Anaheim demographics

I'm guessing we will stop using facts now and start talking about this part of the debate using emotion.  A complete 180.

[Podaar]

I'm guessing we will stop using facts now and start talking about this part of the debate using emotion.  A complete 180.

Well, you're welcome to if you want, but I'm not interested in emotional discussions. Thanks all the same.

[edit] I guess I'm being dense, here. Are you saying that an illegal Central/South American worker or visitor to Disneyland is the source of the outbreak? If so, you may be right (seems plausible) and why wouldn't you just say so? And why would I be emotional about you saying so? [/edit]

[Harmony]

This is a highly useful tool for looking at vaccine preventable outbreaks worldwide over the span of about 7 years.  It doesn't seem to suggest Mexico or Central American countries have nearly as many outbreaks as the US. 

https://www.cfr.org/interactives/GH_Vaccine_Map/#map

This is also an interesting link:

"Though it is often difficult to pinpoint precise origins of disease outbreaks, there is no evidence supporting a link between the recent outbreaks and illegal immigration."

and regarding the measles outbreak in the US in January 2015

"Schuchat did say that there have been no confirmed cases of transmission from the Philippines yet this year; Indonesia, India and the United Arab Emirates are among the countries currently under investigation as a source for the outbreak."

https://www.factcheck.org/2015/02/false-narrative-on-measles-outbreak/

[Nick]

Calvin I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. You seem to be fixated on the origin of an outbreak whereas everyone else is arguing about the spread of the disease which are two different things.

On a lighter note, I saw this the other day.

You mean at the top of this page? 

my bad. I remembered seeing that and google searched it.

[Calvin6s]

world map on measles vax

There really isn't much dispute that it came from outside the US.  The sad thing is I saw a quote from some government source that they will probably never know patient(s) zero.  Kinda enforces the point that the problem is with our poor travel / immigration enforcement.

[Calvin6s]

It doesn't seem to suggest Mexico or Central American countries have nearly as many outbreaks as the US. 

See the map link I provided.  We all recall the problem of central American immigrants starting last year.  Further, the odds of an immigrant family being from the poorer class means they are more likely to be one of the many unvaxxed.

It definitely could come Africa or the Middle East / India subcontinent based off lower vax rates there.  But you have to consider that Anaheim, CA is in Orange County which contains the 2nd largest illegal immigration population in the US, 2nd only to LA County (just a few miles away).

Sadly, I don't expect any definitive answers.  It will probably just slowly leave the news headlines.