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Haken v. new single Nightingale (April 26)

Started by Nick, October 31, 2014, 11:44:22 AM

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me7

The cut between Glutton and Marigold is fine the way it is.

faizoff

Quote from: ariich on August 07, 2020, 09:27:47 AM
Quote from: jammindude on August 07, 2020, 09:18:51 AM
@ariich

Ya, but as I've stated, with the way that the two albums flow together it was almost a mistake that they didn't do it that way. Now that both albums are out, I really can appreciate both of them far more. But waiting two years for the other half would've been like if BTBAM had just released Automata 1 as just "Automata", then toured for it, and then two years later recorded and released "Automatic" (or some such).

Fans were already complaining that they split the concept in two. Can you imagine the bitching that would've taken place if there was no hint that a part two was in the works? The shortness of the album, the sudden ending etc etc...all complaints would have been amplified by the delayed timeline and information.
Oh yeah for sure, I agree that the albums work best in combination, and while I don't think they should have held off and released both together, I totally get why you'd feel that way.

I only mean to highlight the different scenarios. In BTBAM's case, they recorded a single album that had two distinct halves but was very much one work. I'm not actually sure what the rationale was for splitting the releases but for whatever reason that's what they did, which is why part II came out fairly quickly. There'd have been no reason to hold it back for two years.

Whereas Vector was written as a standalone complete album, with the intention to do a sequel but nothing actually written. So again holding back a finished album for a year or two would have been quite weird really.

In BTBAM's case If I remember correctly, they switched to a new record label and if was their wish to separate the two releases.

ariich

Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on August 10, 2020, 01:12:01 PM
Quote from: Elite on August 10, 2020, 01:10:17 PM
It's probably because it doesn't make sense as a full tack and is more like a suite of tracks that belong together than a 'real' single epic.

Haken truly is Dream Theater now that they have their 6DOIT for fans to eternally debate over whether it's a song or a suite. :lol
True. :lol

Although as I've been saying since the tracklist was first revealed, it's structurally most similar to The Healing Colours of Sound by Spock's Beard. I wonder if SB fans ever had similar arguments, particularly as they'd had a number of >15 minute epics by that point as well.

Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on May 10, 2023, 05:59:19 PMAriich is a freak, or somehow has more hours in the day than everyone else.
Quote from: TAC on December 21, 2023, 06:05:15 AMI be am boner inducing.

FlyingBIZKIT


Progmetty

Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on August 10, 2020, 01:12:01 PM
Quote from: Elite on August 10, 2020, 01:10:17 PM
It's probably because it doesn't make sense as a full tack and is more like a suite of tracks that belong together than a 'real' single epic.

Haken truly is Dream Theater now that they have their 6DOIT for fans to eternally debate over whether it's a song or a suite. :lol

I haven't heard what you guys are talking about yet, but that's such an ominous reference, I do not look forward to that shit if it's comparable to the 6DOIT situation  :lol

NoFred

Quote from: cramx3 on August 10, 2020, 07:57:38 AM
Quote from: Fritzinger on August 10, 2020, 12:42:30 AM
Quote from: NoFred on August 08, 2020, 12:26:35 AM
Had a few more listens and a run through the earlier albums. Good news is I prefer listening to Virus over the nostalgia, so they're not slowing down yet. Some thoughts:
-Works so well with Vector they're indistinguishable from a double album, MC benefits the most as it's too epic for ending a single album, and has many V callbacks
-from both albums Canary Yellow may be my favorite, then Carousel, then all of Vector, then rest of Virus
-think Only Stars should have been fleshed out a la Somebody and Bound by Gravity, or worked into the ending epic like CE or Visions... first ending track I think they got wrong and my first automatic skip of theirs - song is fine but doesn't fit at all
-On par overall with Aquarius, Visions, Vector... the Mountain and Affinity are both next level
-no reason to think next album won't have a different sound, they seem to get what they set out to do and we knew these would be heavier
-That said, I'm going to miss Diego
-I take the concept metaphorically, Vector is how one becomes a slave of their own ambition, Virus is how that ambition plays out... CK would work as an overture, interlude, or coda
-MC works as separate tracks as they are clearly parts with some effort put into their transitions (But nothing as cool as the strain to canary yellow, gonna miss Diego)
-"with your cartoon arms"
-I appreciate everything they put into these, the composition and nuggetz, whatever my reaction to the music my takeaway is these guys put in 200% which completely enhances the experience

Did I miss something or do you know something about the rumors we don't?

I feel it's a rather safe assumption at this point.  And I'm sure that's all that comment was. As someone mentioned in this thread earlier, it would be more surprising if he was still in the band at this point than out.

Yes just reading the tea leaves. Also didn't realize Until this thread that the same person produced the mountain/restoration/affinity and none of the others. That guy is awesome - these are a level above the others (which are all good listens)

Progmetty

Quote from: ariich on August 09, 2020, 12:25:48 PM
Quote from: Progmetty on August 09, 2020, 12:23:29 PM
I'm getting the impression I'm lucky that I get to hear both Vector and Virus together for the first time.
Anybody know who produced The Mountain? It doesn't say in the booklet, Wikipedia, nor InsideOut page for the album, it seems like that should mean it's self produced but it doesn't specifically say that anywhere.
Jens Bogren produced The Mountain, Restoration and Affinity.

Thanks! Booklet says Mixed & Mastered by Jens Bogren, same as Wikipedia.

The Letter M

Quote from: ariich on August 10, 2020, 02:08:25 PM
Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on August 10, 2020, 01:12:01 PM
Quote from: Elite on August 10, 2020, 01:10:17 PM
It's probably because it doesn't make sense as a full tack and is more like a suite of tracks that belong together than a 'real' single epic.

Haken truly is Dream Theater now that they have their 6DOIT for fans to eternally debate over whether it's a song or a suite. :lol
True. :lol

Although as I've been saying since the tracklist was first revealed, it's structurally most similar to The Healing Colours of Sound by Spock's Beard. I wonder if SB fans ever had similar arguments, particularly as they'd had a number of >15 minute epics by that point as well.

Neal did the opposite with "So Many Roads" for the Morsefest 2017 official release, and indexed the song into its 6 separate movements. But then he also released "A Whole Nother Trip" as 1 track on Morsefest 2015, when it originally was 4 tracks on his debut album. Similarly, "The Healing Colors Of Sound" was 1 track on Don't Try This At Home, as well as the obvious "Whirlwind" being 1 track on both live albums from the Whrild Tour.

I'm sure Haken would release MC as 1 track on whatever eventual live album they will release in like 2025.

-Marc.

Nel_Annette

I joined the tracks as one when I ripped it into my computer because I wanted the symmetry of both Vector and Virus having seven songs each.  :lol

IDontNotDoThings

Personally I don't think Messiah Complex really works as separate tracks. It helps to make the structure easier to understand, but I couldn't imagine listening to any of the movements individually. The transitions are too sudden for that imo, which separates it from something like SDOIT or The Whirlwind.

Quote from: Nel on August 10, 2020, 09:47:36 PM
I joined the tracks as one when I ripped it into my computer because I wanted the symmetry of both Vector and Virus having seven songs each.  :lol

also this :lol

Pettor

Hehe the suite vs single track has a wonderful gray zone that is so hard to define. I am not even sure I can clearly explain why MC doesn't work as individual songs for me more than it feels wrong and I don't see any point in listening to them individually. SDOIT also works best as the full thing but the individual tracks work as well. Solitary Shell is wonderful as just a single track etc.

I don't think they split it because of streaming but that is an interesting thought. Octavarium and similar tracks must be awful on Spotify from revenue pov. I remember Ayreon TTOE was available as a few single track clocking in at around 20 minutes each. Now they are split (as the CD actually). A bit off topic but shouldn't Spotify count the amount of time (let's say to make it easier they say 4 minutes is a single count) instead of number of times?

Ben_Jamin

It's not hard to define for me.

If it transitions into the next track, I'll usually join them together. If, they can work on it's own without needing the before or after track, then I won't join, unless it's a live album then I'll join them because it's live.

A good example is Between The Buried and Me, Sun of Nothing transitions into Ants of The Sky with any pause or notice of transition. Yet, I keep them separate on the CD rip because I don't want to listen to Sun of Nothing to get to Ants of The Sky. On the live CD rip I have them both joined, because it's live and its weird cutting tracks the flow together live.

I also join tracks because I listen to my music on Shuffle and add a Crossfade of 8 seconds. The tracks flow smoothly into one another sometimes and it's how I find transitions that work pretty well, and how I discovered some songs share the same riff. Like Between The Buried and Me, the end of Turn on The Darkness is nearly identical to Opeth Voice of Treason.

Buddyhunter1

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on August 11, 2020, 05:48:31 AM
A good example is Between The Buried and Me, Sun of Nothing transitions into Ants of The Sky with any pause or notice of transition. Yet, I keep them separate on the CD rip because I don't want to listen to Sun of Nothing to get to Ants of The Sky.

Might be the best transition between songs ever. :metal

ariich

Quote from: FlyingBIZKIT on August 10, 2020, 06:55:49 PM
Welp. I actually like Virus now :lol
Success!


Quote from: Progmetty on August 10, 2020, 09:15:58 PM
Quote from: ariich on August 09, 2020, 12:25:48 PM
Quote from: Progmetty on August 09, 2020, 12:23:29 PM
I'm getting the impression I'm lucky that I get to hear both Vector and Virus together for the first time.
Anybody know who produced The Mountain? It doesn't say in the booklet, Wikipedia, nor InsideOut page for the album, it seems like that should mean it's self produced but it doesn't specifically say that anywhere.
Jens Bogren produced The Mountain, Restoration and Affinity.

Thanks! Booklet says Mixed & Mastered by Jens Bogren, same as Wikipedia.
Yeah I mean in terms of the overall process of production, the band takes responsibility in terms of decision-making etc. but they need outside producers for their technical skills, advice, etc. So Bogren did mixing and mastering on those three albums. On Vector and Virus, Nolly did mixing and drum recording/engineering, but someone else did mastering. So it depends what you mean by production really, in one sense Haken have always been self-produced.

Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on May 10, 2023, 05:59:19 PMAriich is a freak, or somehow has more hours in the day than everyone else.
Quote from: TAC on December 21, 2023, 06:05:15 AMI be am boner inducing.

emtee

Must.
Stop.
Listening.

I'm going to burn the album out. But I can't stop!

cramx3

Quote from: emtee on August 11, 2020, 12:20:18 PM
Must.
Stop.
Listening.

I'm going to burn the album out. But I can't stop!

I'd say the same, except I still find new nuggets to enjoy after every listen.  This is how I know it's a great prog album, the depth of the music leads to new discoveries even after so many listens.  I think this is currently my album of the year and each listen it gets better.  Like, I'd say Invasion was one of my least favorite songs, but I'm enjoying it so much more now than I ever did before.

emtee

The rhythms in this blow my mind. It would be crazy difficult to play.

And yes, lots of new goodies every spin!

kirksnosehair

Pretty sure this is going to be my favorite album from this band.  I'm only a casual fan, though.  I find they tend to do quite a bit of complexity that doesn't really seem to do anything other than just being a complex phrase or riff.   I may need more listens to sort it out, but like a lot of their stuff when I finish listening to it, I can't really remember many of the melodies. 




Progmetty

Quote from: ariich on August 11, 2020, 06:24:07 AM
Quote from: Progmetty on August 10, 2020, 09:15:58 PM
Quote from: ariich on August 09, 2020, 12:25:48 PM
Quote from: Progmetty on August 09, 2020, 12:23:29 PM
I'm getting the impression I'm lucky that I get to hear both Vector and Virus together for the first time.
Anybody know who produced The Mountain? It doesn't say in the booklet, Wikipedia, nor InsideOut page for the album, it seems like that should mean it's self produced but it doesn't specifically say that anywhere.
Jens Bogren produced The Mountain, Restoration and Affinity.

Thanks! Booklet says Mixed & Mastered by Jens Bogren, same as Wikipedia.
Yeah I mean in terms of the overall process of production, the band takes responsibility in terms of decision-making etc. but they need outside producers for their technical skills, advice, etc. So Bogren did mixing and mastering on those three albums. On Vector and Virus, Nolly did mixing and drum recording/engineering, but someone else did mastering. So it depends what you mean by production really, in one sense Haken have always been self-produced.

Oh I see what you mean. Cause my perception of the producer is the guy that says things like "That riff doesn't work there", "This song doesn't need a third verse", "That solo is not that great, you can do better", "bass needs to be louder here", "That last chorus needs to sound different", etc.
In addition to bossing around a talented sound engineer for the technical aspects that he's already mastered.
So it makes sense that don't credit as Jens Bogren "producer", yet he may have helped so much with the overall sound that they didn't wanna just take all the credit by writing "Produced by Haken".

Buddyhunter1

Production means like three completely different things depending on the context, which is kinda bullshit. :lol

Pettor

Already feeling a bit of fatigue starting to get the upper hand of the album. Hopefully it will change but maybe this isn't a "stand the test of time" album for me. Was hoping for some of the songs to get better with each spin but sadly doesn't get much of that right now. I think it's the lack of really strong melodies that is my main issue. For me MC is the song with the best and most memorable sections and melodies weirdly. The other songs mainly has crazy instrumentation but that needs to be combined with equally strong melodies imo.

cramx3

I think this album has some of Hakens most memorable melodies. I have a hard time getting the ivory tower melody, the strain chorus, and the intro chorus of carousel out of my head.

Dublagent66

I really like Carousel a lot. Still some mixed feelings about the Messiah Complex suite.  Overall, the album is growing on me.

The Letter M

Quote from: GasparXR on August 09, 2020, 09:38:00 PM
Quote from: me7 on August 06, 2020, 12:16:27 PM
Mixed bag. They are not real remixes, but very aggressive remasters that try to sound like remixes. The intentions are good, but it sounds very artificial at times.

I think they are remixed actually, because there were a couple very subtle changes that could only be done by removing parts of certain tracks. In the song Aquarium, right before the second chorus (Freak of nature, pay to see her..) there's a piano lead-in that originally had a drum fill into the chorus, but the 2017 release gets rid of that drum fill. Likewise, in Insomnia, during the "video-game" break down, there's a bass synth part that's no longer there in the 2017 version.

That is very interesting. I don't think I've heard the original release more than a couple of times before I got the re-issue, so I've never had a chance to A/B the two versions.

I just recently got the 2017 re-release of Visions (despite actually already owning the original release), and now I am wondering if the 2017 version of Visions has any changes compared to the original (outside of general remastering). Does anyone know what they may have changed on Visions?

-Marc.

GasparXR

Well I've given in at least 10 spins, so I'm getting a good grasp on where this album sits with me so far. It's growing on me the way all of their non-Vector albums have, which is that I have to take a few listens to get used to the weird-ness of it. Vector I found was a bit predictable as far as the Haken sound goes. It was still a great album, but it didn't take very long for me to 'get' it like the rest of their discography. Not a bad or good thing necessarily, just an observation I had.

Prosthetic I think is one of their most unique singles and opening songs. They haven't really done such a thrashy, riffy song like this much, certainly not as one of their singles, and most of their opening tracks are more theatrical, or use an intro of some kind. Only other album to not have an intro track is Aquarius (as well as the Restoration EP). I guess that makes sense if you consider that it's a continuation of the last album, and in that context, it works as an "ACT II Opener" if you will, but in general it's probably their weakest album opening. Still a great track, but probably my least favourite from the album.

After saying what I said about Prosthetic being a unique Haken single, I realized that all the singles from this album were pretty particular. Invasion wouldn't be anywhere near my first guess as to what would be a single from Virus having heard the whole album now. Especially since it's probably one of my favourite songs from Virus. I love how they used the really low, djenty guitar sound, without actually making the song absurdly heavy. (I guess that's something they're known for a little bit by this point though). The lyrics really catch me too, especially "Losing our sense of direction has led us to where we all need to be". The video was really awesome too.

I'm not entirely sold on Carousel yet, but it's growing fast on me, especially a few parts like the jazzy bridge and the end of the final chorus. That jazzy bridge reminds me of the electronic sections with choppy rhythms they would include in songs like The Architect and Because it's There (or the entirety of Red Giant), but without any actual electronic sounds. That was a cool progression of their sound. In terms of other similar-ish songs in their discography, I probably like Veil and the two long songs from The Mountain quite a bit more, but I'll see if that changes at all as I digest it more.

I'm not sure why The Strain was not a single, but it kicks so much ass. Also one of my favourites. Haken has a knack for really powerful and memorable vocal melodies, and this is easily among their best. There's this really cool lead guitar line during the main riff that I really love. Also damn, the vocals in the bridge section are SO good, and once again Haken loves showing off their fusiony chord progressions.

Canary Yellow kind of makes sense as a single since it's more on the accessible and simple side, but it's not the type of sound I would expect Haken to use in a single. Nevertheless, also a really great song. It reminds me of a weird mix of Earthlings, Red Giant, and Host. The lyrics are really good here too.

Ok... now Messiah Complex. Honestly I was a little bit baffled the first few times through this suite, but it grew on me, and all the sections it goes through feels more unified to me. I love all the references it makes, and even though I knew a more blatant Cockroach King reference was gonna happen, as soon as I heard the background vocals in The Sect, I still almost leapt up in the air with pure joy. And then Ectobius Rex.... GOD DAMN! What a dirty, chonky riff that is. It's so great. And then it closes up with the chorus from Ivory Tower and the bridge riff from Prosthetic. What a fantastic climax to this album honestly.

I'm a lot higher on Only Stars than a lot of people are. I like that they made a true, short outro song in the vein of a lot of their intro tracks. They've usually ended with a long, epic song, or at least a regular, fitting closing song. It was a neat little companion to Clear and to me it's just as beautiful and pristine as The Path or As Death Embraces. I think it improves the album a lot. Ending with Ectobius Rex, although climactic, doesn't really give a proper conclusion since it just kinda drops off from a heavy chunky riff.

As far as what I think overall, I think this is probably somewhere in the middle for now, maybe a bit on the stronger side. That's not saying much, since I feel their entire discography is really brilliant, and the level of quality between them all is pretty close. In fact, they're so close that I can't decide between a couple pairs of albums as to which one I like more. I think I'd go like this right now:

1) The Mountain
2) Affinity / Visions (tie)
3) Virus
4) Vector / Restoration (tie)
5) Aquarius


Virus could very well get higher on the list as I listen more. Visions was one of my favourite concept albums since I got into prog music (I got into Haken right as Visions came out and that's when I ventured into the world of prog past Dream Theater and Pink Floyd), so it's a tough act to beat, and Affinity was probably the biggest sound change Haken has done so far, and is a beautiful masterpiece. Sometimes I feel like it's better than The Mountain, it really depends on my current mood and if I've listened to either recently. :lol It's so cool when I've listened to an album many, many times, and then after a while, after not listening to it for maybe over a year or longer, coming back to it and rediscovering what I loved about it and more.

Evermind

My copy from Omerch has arrived, that was pretty fast actually. Really enjoying both mediabook (looks awesome in pair with the Vector one) and the yellow t-shirt.

Also got Devin Townsend Empath t-shirt with a cat on it, thanks to Cram for posting about it somewhere and making me aware it exists.
Quote from: Train of Naught on May 28, 2020, 10:57:25 PMThis first band is Soen very cool swingy jazz fusion kinda stuff.

cramx3

Quote from: Evermind on August 17, 2020, 08:50:01 AM
Also got Devin Townsend Empath t-shirt with a cat on it, thanks to Cram for posting about it somewhere and making me aware it exists.

:metal love that tshirt

cramx3

Quote from: GasparXR on August 16, 2020, 11:00:26 PM
And then Ectobius Rex.... GOD DAMN! What a dirty, chonky riff that is. It's so great. And then it closes up with the chorus from Ivory Tower and the bridge riff from Prosthetic. What a fantastic climax to this album honestly.

I'm such a huge fan on the Ectobius Rex, love how it brings everything back to an ending.  The final chorus with The Ivory tower melody but the lyrics referencing all the other songs is such an awesome climax

QuoteCrawl out of my skin, a cell keeps dividing
Memories of electricity
Rid this plague within, the veil finally lifts
Jumping from my tower of ivory

plus that chanting outro with some awesome riffage  :metal

Elite

Is it timeyet to post our top 10 (or 5, or 15, whatever) Haken songs?

Let's have a go! If nobody else does, I'll start when I have more time to post something :)
Quote from: Lolzeez on November 18, 2013, 01:23:32 PMHey dude slow the fuck down so we can finish together at the same time.  :biggrin:
Quote from: home on May 09, 2017, 04:05:10 PMSqu
scRa are the resultaten of sound nog bring propey

Revenge319

Top 10 Haken songs:

1. Visions
2. Messiah Complex
3. The Architect
4. Somebody
5. Bound By Gravity
6. Pareidolia
7. Falling Back to Earth
8. Puzzle Box
9. Eternal Rain
10. Cockroach King

Zydar

My 10 favourites, in no particular order except chronological.

1. Celestial Elixir (okay, it's my #1)
2. Visions
3. Cockroach King
4. In Memoriam
5. Falling Back To Earth
6. Crystallised
7. 1985
8. Veil
9. Carousel
10. Canary Yellow

IDontNotDoThings

#1. The Architect
#2. Celestial Elixir
#3. Somebody
#4. Bound By Gravity
#5. Veil
#6. Crystalised
#7. Puzzle Box
#8. Initiate
#9. Atlas Stone
10. Deathless

Elite

Stupidly difficult:

1. Celestial Elixir
2. 1985
3. Pareidolia
4. Aquarium
5. The Architect
6. Puzzle Box
7. Deathless
8. Falling Back to Earth
9. Host
10. Because It's There
Quote from: Lolzeez on November 18, 2013, 01:23:32 PMHey dude slow the fuck down so we can finish together at the same time.  :biggrin:
Quote from: home on May 09, 2017, 04:05:10 PMSqu
scRa are the resultaten of sound nog bring propey

ariich

This was my attempt a few weeks ago when the same question came up on Reddit. It's impossible really though, this could easily change from day to day.

1. Falling Back to Earth
2. The Endless Knot
3. Deathless
4. In Memoriam
5. Invasion
6. Host
7. Red Giant
8. Puzzle Box
9. The Strain
10. 1985

Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on May 10, 2023, 05:59:19 PMAriich is a freak, or somehow has more hours in the day than everyone else.
Quote from: TAC on December 21, 2023, 06:05:15 AMI be am boner inducing.

Elite

I deliberately left off any Virus songs, but I could see Invasion making the list.
Quote from: Lolzeez on November 18, 2013, 01:23:32 PMHey dude slow the fuck down so we can finish together at the same time.  :biggrin:
Quote from: home on May 09, 2017, 04:05:10 PMSqu
scRa are the resultaten of sound nog bring propey