Author Topic: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album  (Read 671376 times)

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Offline jjrock88

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6160 on: April 17, 2023, 08:02:00 PM »
Yeah that song is outstanding. 

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6161 on: April 17, 2023, 08:03:11 PM »
Wait, I never said I didn't like the album in the first place.  I always liked it.  I just like it a bit more now with the tweaked running order.  Yeah, it is cheating, but I can listen to the songs in any order I want.  :biggrin:

Ah sorry mate.  That makes it more interesting to me then.  :lol

Haha, all good.  I am a believer that a really good first and last song are both pretty essential to an album being really good (although there are certainly exceptions), so the alternate running order results in a great song being in the first slot instead of merely a solid one, IMO.

Offline wolfking

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6162 on: April 17, 2023, 09:12:31 PM »
The band intended the tracklist as the one Brian posted. To me, that outs the three weakest songs all in a row.

Why didn't that stick then?

Record company interference.

Interesting.
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Offline wolfking

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6163 on: April 17, 2023, 09:13:29 PM »
Wait, I never said I didn't like the album in the first place.  I always liked it.  I just like it a bit more now with the tweaked running order.  Yeah, it is cheating, but I can listen to the songs in any order I want.  :biggrin:

Ah sorry mate.  That makes it more interesting to me then.  :lol

Haha, all good.  I am a believer that a really good first and last song are both pretty essential to an album being really good (although there are certainly exceptions), so the alternate running order results in a great song being in the first slot instead of merely a solid one, IMO.

I can get on board with that.  Never had an issue with the title track myself so I guess that's why I do find it interesting.
Everyone else, except Wolfking is wrong.

Offline jjrock88

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6164 on: April 17, 2023, 10:18:24 PM »
Always thought En Force was a kick ass tune.

Offline Glasser

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6165 on: April 17, 2023, 11:58:42 PM »
Bottom line is a good album is a good album no matter what order you play the tunes. I was taking a trip down memory lane when my friends and I would do a full album air band so hard that we would make the needle skip on the turntable.  :metal

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6166 on: April 18, 2023, 06:16:09 AM »
Always thought En Force was a kick ass tune.

That's because it IS a kick ass tune.  :coolio :coolio

Offline DragonAttack

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6167 on: April 18, 2023, 07:53:14 AM »
First, I wish I'd have been at that Baltimore show, but I have no desire any more to be downtown at night (except for the upcoming Queen+AL show)

Track listings on LPs:  had a friend record Deep Purple's 'Perfect Strangers' for me on cassette when the album first came out (with 'Machine Head' on the other side).  Well...he recorded Side Two first.  It wasn't until a decade later when I bought the CD that I heard the correct order, and it sure threw me for a loop.

I didn't buy it, but Queen's 'A Night at the Opera' cassette had 'Good Company' and 'Seaside Rendezvoux' switching places.  :facepalm:  That throws both sides out of whack.  Feel sorry for those who purchased it.
...going along with Dragon Attack's Queen thread has been like taking a free class in Queen knowledge. Where else are you gonna find info like that?!

Offline Samsara

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6168 on: April 18, 2023, 09:42:09 AM »

More and more, the music industry is getting back into the mindset of an album as simply a collection of songs (if they do “albums” at all anymore). But anyone who has ever made a mixtape/CD knows that there is a “flow” to an album if it’s done right. Emotional “tension and release”. It’s like a symphony or a good film. Interrupting the intended flow of an album can greatly disrupt its emotional impact.

Bingo, JD. And I've noticed that too...the world is becoming like it was in the 50s...more single-oriented. For me, an album is exactly as you described. It's an experience that IMO, very good artists take a lot of time to work on, like QR did with The Warning before the label F'd them.


What's the exact story behind the tracklist then?  Was there ever a release with the different tracklist?

Here's what happened. The band submitted the album with an approved track order (what I posted) and a mix done by James Guthrie that was more to their liking (guitars higher in mix). Once they submitted it, then went to Japan to tour. When they got home, they were told that EMI changed the track list to feature the single, "Warning," first. And they also had Val Garay remix the record so it was more in-line with the sound that was popular at the time (drums more up front, guitars dialed back, vocals way up front). The band were absolutely devastated. I recently interviewed Dave Morris, who was the band's first guitar tech and crew member. He reiterated to me how absolutely crushed and upset all five of the band members were when that happened. They couldn't fight it, it was their first record for EMI, and they had to just "move on," but it was really painful for all of them to have their work modified the way it was. They literally compartmentalized it and let it go, because they were so mad and couldn't/didn't want to revisit it.

Wait, I never said I didn't like the album in the first place.  I always liked it.  I just like it a bit more now with the tweaked running order.  Yeah, it is cheating, but I can listen to the songs in any order I want.  :biggrin:

Not cheating at all. It's what the band intended us to hear. And after doing so, that album makes a lot more sense. It's an experience, as opposed to just songs on a record. Which was what Queensr˙che wanted. It's also why Guthrie was at the helm of the record (Pink Floyd). Album experiences. Just such a shame.

One of the cooler things I have is a CD that has The Warning in the originally intended order that has been re-equalized by a very capable sound engineer (not just me and you screwing with an EQ), to try and bring up the guitars, lower the drums, get some of the hiss out, etc. It sounds great. The difference is probably minor to most people, but when I A/B'd the versions, you can absolutely tell a difference.

Given what Dave Morris said to me, I highly doubt QR (or Capitol Records who I assume still own the rights to the record) will ever have that recorded probably sequenced and mixed back to something like they intended. All the band guys still have their original net final mix cassettes that they approved before heading to Japan. So the mix exists. But given that those are on cassette tapes, I hope they all digitized them. If they were to ever have the album remixed, they'd have to start from scratch, and use those tapes as a guide. And at this point, I don't see them ever bothering.

Those of you who are just comfortable with the original order, try the intended track order, and then read along with the lyrics. It's a conceptual album, and the track order makes a big difference in realizing that concept.
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Offline Dublagent66

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6169 on: April 18, 2023, 11:23:04 AM »
Always thought En Force was a kick ass tune.

That's because it IS a kick ass tune.  :coolio :coolio

On a kick ass album no less. :2metal:
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Offline Kwyjibo

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6170 on: April 18, 2023, 11:57:16 AM »
I can understand the frustration of the band, but I still think opening the record with Warning is a better choice than opening it with NM 256.  The latter is the best song on the album imo but it was also the one that took the longest to sink in, to really appreciate its greatness. It's the most ununsual song on The Warning and opening the record with it might throw the listener, that is new to the band, off.

As it is, it opens with a nice song, sets the tone and mood and from then on, it only gets better.
Must've been Kwyji sending all the wrong songs.   ;D

Offline Samsara

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6171 on: April 18, 2023, 01:21:50 PM »
I can understand the frustration of the band, but I still think opening the record with Warning is a better choice than opening it with NM 256.  The latter is the best song on the album imo but it was also the one that took the longest to sink in, to really appreciate its greatness. It's the most ununsual song on The Warning and opening the record with it might throw the listener, that is new to the band, off.

As it is, it opens with a nice song, sets the tone and mood and from then on, it only gets better.

All personal taste. I was just giving the explanation as to what was intended and why.

Personally, I think "Warning" is one of the more pedestrian songs on The Warning, along with "Before the Storm." Both of those are filler to me, in comparison to the other seven tracks. They work better, particularly "Warning," nestled between Child of Fire and Roads to Madness. A prelude to the coming end (or shall we say beginning?).

Next year it is 40 years old. Crazy to think of that.
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Offline EPICVIEW

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6172 on: April 18, 2023, 01:49:45 PM »
I can understand the frustration of the band, but I still think opening the record with Warning is a better choice than opening it with NM 256.  The latter is the best song on the album imo but it was also the one that took the longest to sink in, to really appreciate its greatness. It's the most ununsual song on The Warning and opening the record with it might throw the listener, that is new to the band, off.

As it is, it opens with a nice song, sets the tone and mood and from then on, it only gets better.

I agree   i think the label did the right thing   WARNING really grabs you to start the album and sets the tone of the "concept"  being loosely woven..again I must have worn out 3 LP copies as kid and have 3 or more copies of the CD so its burned into me, that said I dont listen to it very often now and I cant see the band at that time being so young and surrounded by such great producers and label people having much of an issue with song order, Im sure they were just thrilled to make that album as it was their first., did the band ever speak on this subject of song order?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 02:25:45 PM by EPICVIEW »
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Offline Samsara

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6173 on: April 18, 2023, 03:26:47 PM »
EV,

Many times. And they've said each time that it was altered and they weren't happy about it. Their manager at the time wasn't happy about it either. Neither was James Guthrie, who thought they made an amazing album.
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Offline Dublagent66

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6174 on: April 18, 2023, 03:28:30 PM »
I first heard Queen of the Reich on the radio around 1983?  Didn't get my first QR album until RFO.  That's when I discovered The Warning and of course the remainder of the EP.  The rest is history as they say.  I think Warning was a good single to start the album just like Walk in the Shadows was for RFO.  Something catchy and not as complicated to start an album has always been a good marketing strategy for any band.
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Offline Samsara

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6175 on: April 19, 2023, 09:57:09 AM »
Yeah, from a single standpoint, I totally understand what the label did and why. I get it totally.

But it really ruined the flow of a themeatic, semi-conceptual debut album that all of band spent a lot of time on.

Either way, great record. Could use a remix (imagine an expanded high fidelity mix ala 5.1 or 7.1 or whatever they do these days - Atmos?)
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Offline EPICVIEW

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6176 on: April 19, 2023, 02:47:30 PM »
EV,

Many times. And they've said each time that it was altered and they weren't happy about it. Their manager at the time wasn't happy about it either. Neither was James Guthrie, who thought they made an amazing album.

 :tup   as I get older the ole mind aint retaining what it used to LOL   
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Offline gazinwales

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6177 on: May 04, 2023, 02:41:29 AM »
Mindcrime is 35 years old, released in May 1988.
It hasn't aged one bit and in many respects, compared to most modern metal albums, sounds even better.

Offline wolfking

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6178 on: May 04, 2023, 04:23:40 AM »
Mindcrime is 35 years old, released in May 1988.
It hasn't aged one bit and in many respects, compared to most modern metal albums, sounds even better.

And still sounds better produced and mixed than most albums out there.
Everyone else, except Wolfking is wrong.

Offline abydos

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6179 on: May 04, 2023, 05:10:42 AM »
I still somewhat vividly remember the first time I heard O:M. Must have been between 1997 and 2000, he had given me a tape that was supposed to be Savatage's Edge of Thorns since I loved Hall of the Mountain King and he told me that they have changed vocalists for this one. I was immediately blown away and even though I had almost no English knowledge at the time I was looking at the track titles (handwritten) and knew something was up but didn't think much of it.

So for a week or so I was screaming along thinking this is probably Savatage's best album and I was so impressed that the same band that wrote Hall of the Mountain King can be so creative as to make something so different yet even better. And where the heck did they find this guy on the mic lol.

Offline Samsara

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6180 on: May 04, 2023, 07:59:46 AM »
Mindcrime is 35 years old, released in May 1988.
It hasn't aged one bit and in many respects, compared to most modern metal albums, sounds even better.

My favorite album of all time. And nope, doesn't sound like it is from a certain era, sound-wise. My wife and I were laughing the other day saying how the title track is our least favorite on Operation: Mindcrime, but still blows away most music. Just such a gem front to back.

I first heard Mindcrime right when it was released (within a week or so). I was so excited, since I had discovered Queensryche with Rage for Order in Fall '87. Good times.
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Offline nick_z

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6181 on: May 04, 2023, 05:06:21 PM »
Mindcrime is 35 years old, released in May 1988.
It hasn't aged one bit and in many respects, compared to most modern metal albums, sounds even better.

My favorite album of all time. And nope, doesn't sound like it is from a certain era, sound-wise. My wife and I were laughing the other day saying how the title track is our least favorite on Operation: Mindcrime, but still blows away most music. Just such a gem front to back.

I first heard Mindcrime right when it was released (within a week or so). I was so excited, since I had discovered Queensryche with Rage for Order in Fall '87. Good times.

Man, what an amazing thing to have discovered that in real time. That happened a few years later for me (5, if I remember correctly). An absolute masterpiece of an album. Such a rare thing for a concept, where the whole album is incredibly compelling as a story PLUS every single song is absolutely killer as a standalone piece (yes, the interludes too!  :))

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6182 on: May 04, 2023, 06:40:14 PM »
See, I don't see Mindcrime as being an album that doesn't sound of an era.  The mix and production is very 80s rock/metal-sounding, and that is a good thing.  Of course, I don't subscribe to the narrative that sounding "dated" or of a particular era is a bad thing, so there is that as well.

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6183 on: May 04, 2023, 10:15:50 PM »
Yeah I find Mindcrime very much of its era too but nothing short of a masterpiece regardless.  I mean I can listen to a lot of stuff from back when and it doesn't sound dated to my ears that's not my point as is just how I hear it.  But if I stop and take note yeah, sure Mindcrime is an 80's recording but just a damn good one \m/

Not sure that makes sense but anyway... ;)

Offline abydos

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6184 on: May 05, 2023, 04:52:55 AM »
To me, it's dated only if I happen to watch some of the videos. I don't know what was in the water supply in the 80s, but damn.

Offline Deathless

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6185 on: May 05, 2023, 01:43:42 PM »
See, I don't see Mindcrime as being an album that doesn't sound of an era.  The mix and production is very 80s rock/metal-sounding, and that is a good thing.  Of course, I don't subscribe to the narrative that sounding "dated" or of a particular era is a bad thing, so there is that as well.

I'm with you on this. If OM sounded like Empire... well.  :eek

Offline Kwyjibo

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6186 on: May 05, 2023, 02:40:27 PM »
Operation: Mindcrime sounds of its time but it's still a timeless classic.
Must've been Kwyji sending all the wrong songs.   ;D

Offline Samsara

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6187 on: May 08, 2023, 02:53:29 PM »
TBH, I don't think Mindcrime sounds of its era, mixing/production-wise at all. It very..."crisp" for a non-musical term, but I chalked that up to them doing the entire recorded digitally. Still hard to believe it was 35 years ago. Crazy.

Empire though man...that fucking beast was used to test the acoustics in studios it was so well done. The same team recorded, mixed, and produced it too (Northfield/Barton/Collins) - although if memory serves, Northfield just recorded the song "Empire," and Barton recorded the rest of that record - so it's not surprising. But that record sounds, in terms of sonics, light years different than Mindcrime.
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Offline Glasser

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6188 on: May 08, 2023, 03:36:53 PM »
Operation: Mindcrime sounds of its time but it's still a timeless classic.

One of the best metal albums of all time to this day.

Offline DoctorAction

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6189 on: May 10, 2023, 08:38:35 AM »
I've never listened to The Warning with the intended track order before. It's great.  :azn:

It's a huge source of frustration to me that it sounds how it does. A full remix and remaster could be utterly amazing. The material and performances are so great. Come on, guys!
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Offline Samsara

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6190 on: May 10, 2023, 08:44:37 AM »
I've never listened to The Warning with the intended track order before. It's great.  :azn:

It's a huge source of frustration to me that it sounds how it does. A full remix and remaster could be utterly amazing. The material and performances are so great. Come on, guys!

AMEN, DA. But that sort of project is at the mercy of Capitol Records. And while the 40th of that album is next year, I highly doubt they'll invest the money to do it PROPERLY with the intended track order and a remix. I hope I'm wrong. I expect a vinyl release and new liner notes of the previously remastered 2003 CD, which sounds like garbage.  :lol
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Offline DoctorAction

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6191 on: May 10, 2023, 08:52:10 AM »
Keeping my fingers crossed. The more they do with it, the more units they'll likely shift, right?
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Offline Grappler

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6192 on: May 10, 2023, 08:59:06 AM »
Keeping my fingers crossed. The more they do with it, the more units they'll likely shift, right?

Yes, but there's also the financial impact on the band.  It costs more to do more, and the band might not be in a position to put X amount of money into a project like that. 

That's why we haven't seen any live album or DVD from Todd's era - he recently said that they've recorded just about every show they've played in the last handful of years, but they haven't taken the time to go through all of those recordings, and if they did - is it even worth doing? 

Offline EPICVIEW

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« Last Edit: June 06, 2023, 01:44:53 PM by EPICVIEW »
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Offline EPICVIEW

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Re: Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album
« Reply #6194 on: June 06, 2023, 01:43:22 PM »
I dont have a delete button?? Mod can delete please
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