DT's three keyboardists...

[KevShmev]

ReaP, I pretty much agree with the bulk of your post.  I agree that JP's highs were outstanding back in the day, and like you said, even the ones that sounded a bit nonsensical still came across as being worded well enough to work really well (like Under a Glass Moon).  And I am someone who doesn't need to be beat over the head with song meanings.  I like when lyrics can have multiple meanings or make you think a little bit (or a lot).  Straight forward lyrics can work really well as well, of course. 

As for SW, yes, I think he is a damn good lyricist.  Sure, like everyone, he has had his fair share of misses, but his hits are knocked out of the park.  I like the fact that his lyrics often have a mysterious aura to them. 

[tgstk2]

I think Jordan played his best parts on the LTE (so not DT) albums and on SFAM.

there he was still doing this crazy/funny piano riddles and stuff, which made the music interesting. and he was also...playing for the song.
As after SFAM (IMO), he bcame more the virtuoso, the piano sounds are gone and it's all electric over the top sounds, wahwah, feedback crazy stuff.... and sometimes i just cant listen to it anymore, it's just to much. i would rather here him play those crazy parts on a piano than over a 2350 layered synth sound.  even the unsion parts are well... the sounds spoils it for me, you can't hear the difference from jp to jr from time to time.
where in the KM era the sounds where also very similar but you could still hear this casio keyboard sound :-)

JR is indeed the most gifted he lives eats shits breaths music....but sometimes i just which he would just play the chords and do a crazy fill in, instead of doing just crazy fill in's and put a chorid in there from time to time.

[Samsara]

I think Jordan played his best parts on the LTE (so not DT) albums and on SFAM.

there he was still doing this crazy/funny piano riddles and stuff, which made the music interesting. and he was also...playing for the song.
As after SFAM (IMO), he bcame more the virtuoso, the piano sounds are gone and it's all electric over the top sounds, wahwah, feedback crazy stuff.... and sometimes i just cant listen to it anymore, it's just to much. i would rather here him play those crazy parts on a piano than over a 2350 layered synth sound.  even the unsion parts are well... the sounds spoils it for me, you can't hear the difference from jp to jr from time to time.
where in the KM era the sounds where also very similar but you could still hear this casio keyboard sound :-)

JR is indeed the most gifted he lives eats shits breaths music....but sometimes i just which he would just play the chords and do a crazy fill in, instead of doing just crazy fill in's and put a chorid in there from time to time.

I actually think Jordan was very over-the-top on LTE and SFAM, but I think that was the point. They wanted virtuosity. For me, I consider the keyboard to be an instrument that should add a lot of color to a song. Jordan turned it into a shrill guitar.  And that's just his style. He's the best technical player out of all of them, and I appreciate how awesome he is. In fact, I'd say he's hands-down the best musician in Dream Theater, and that's saying a LOT.

I just haven't liked what he has brought to the sound of the band, in comparison to what was lost with KM and DS.

I can completely appreciate why people like Jordan over these two. And you can't argue with the success DT has had with Jordan. But at least from personal perspective, I'd take Moore's atmospheric, dark overtones and lyrics, and Derek's 70s's prog sound and color, over JR's noodling and technical ability any day of the week.

It's ridiculous to think that a keyboardist can have such an impact on a band. But DT really did lose a huge element with Kevin, and they lost huge potential with Derek when he was booted out. The loss of those guys tremendously altered the band's sound. And while JR obviously added to DT's sound, and they have had wonderful success (the masses have spoken), after listening to 70s hard rock for the last week or so, I really find myself missing that element in DT (Derek) or as always, my personal favorite of Kev Mo and what he brought musically and lyrically to that sound.

[PS Head]

For me,the one thing that lets JR down is his choice of lead sounds and his,on many occasions,lack of feel.....why does he have to attack a solo at 100mph.Take Sacrificed Sons...the solo in the middle is typical JR but the jazzy piano parts directly after are awesome.We all know he is without doubt one of the best prog keyboardist in the world....and his arrangements,take the opening to 6DoIT,are untouchable.As for feel,you only have to look at 8VM...but i just wish we had more feel more often with some different lead sounds.

KM and DS are both suberb keys men who have contributed enormously to the DT sound and produced/written some brilliant stuff,but DT being DT,you need to bring more to the plate....and keyboards are a HUGE part of their sound......so for me JR is without doubt the right man for the job and im so glad no one else has got him.

[ReaPsTA]

[post]

The one thing that seems implicit in your posts is that Rudess can't do atmosphere, which I don't find true.  When he goes there he can do some incredible stuff (think Wither, Disappear, These Walls).  I actually don't care so much that JR doesn't have KM's level of atmosphere most of the time.  I appreciate something like the Piano in the verses of Endless Sacrifice, something that I think KM would have handled with a simple pad.  I just don't like when Rudess gets super duper crazy for its own sake.

[tgstk2]

I think Jordan played his best parts on the LTE (so not DT) albums and on SFAM.

there he was still doing this crazy/funny piano riddles and stuff, which made the music interesting. and he was also...playing for the song.
As after SFAM (IMO), he bcame more the virtuoso, the piano sounds are gone and it's all electric over the top sounds, wahwah, feedback crazy stuff.... and sometimes i just cant listen to it anymore, it's just to much. i would rather here him play those crazy parts on a piano than over a 2350 layered synth sound.  even the unsion parts are well... the sounds spoils it for me, you can't hear the difference from jp to jr from time to time.
where in the KM era the sounds where also very similar but you could still hear this casio keyboard sound :-)

JR is indeed the most gifted he lives eats shits breaths music....but sometimes i just which he would just play the chords and do a crazy fill in, instead of doing just crazy fill in's and put a chorid in there from time to time.

I actually think Jordan was very over-the-top on LTE and SFAM, but I think that was the point. They wanted virtuosity. For me, I consider the keyboard to be an instrument that should add a lot of color to a song. Jordan turned it into a shrill guitar.  And that's just his style. He's the best technical player out of all of them, and I appreciate how awesome he is. In fact, I'd say he's hands-down the best musician in Dream Theater, and that's saying a LOT.

I just haven't liked what he has brought to the sound of the band, in comparison to what was lost with KM and DS.

I can completely appreciate why people like Jordan over these two. And you can't argue with the success DT has had with Jordan. But at least from personal perspective, I'd take Moore's atmospheric, dark overtones and lyrics, and Derek's 70s's prog sound and color, over JR's noodling and technical ability any day of the week.

It's ridiculous to think that a keyboardist can have such an impact on a band. But DT really did lose a huge element with Kevin, and they lost huge potential with Derek when he was booted out. The loss of those guys tremendously altered the band's sound. And while JR obviously added to DT's sound, and they have had wonderful success (the masses have spoken), after listening to 70s hard rock for the last week or so, I really find myself missing that element in DT (Derek) or as always, my personal favorite of Kev Mo and what he brought musically and lyrically to that sound.

i totally agree with you, you wrote  down what i attended to do but it beter,m more enjoyable english, t hank you.

[snapple]

If you guys have listened to much Gentle Giant, I think it's pretty understandable why Jordan plays the way he does. They're not super "atmospheric". It's all pretty dynamic and virtuous. (It's relevant because he cites Gentle Giant as one of his main influences).

I'd take Jordan over the rest any day of the week. KM ended up being a douche, DS seemed to have other problems outside of the music (trying to score girls while on tour, making the live shows seem less serious to the point of almost being a joke), and Jordan makes the band feel like a band. He is 100% committed and it truly is an honor for me, as a fan, to have someone like that to be in the band.

[tgstk2]

no the big difference between the 3 for me ...(after reading your posts)

KM was kind of dull on stage..... like he didn't even liked to be  there, but that had his charme (see live in tokyo)
DS well he was the king of live entertainment, DT's shows where the most entertaining when he was in, cause he was doing it for fun.
(who gives a ... if he wanted groupies? damn..that's...natural :-))
JR is to serious for me, with his Ipad and his notes and sheet music, like a conductor/leader of an orchestra (how do you call that guy with that little stick?) he sometimes looks at other members as if they are not allowed to make a mistake....look at the SCO epsiodes when he tells them the riff......it's more in a teaching when than in a fun way (hey lets make music as we enjoy this....).
also his stage presence bores me. i'm always standing on the right side of the stage looking at JP.

so...summerize:
- KM best sounds, coolest idears
- DS great stage presence, seems liek a fun guy
- JR most gifted keyboard player, most boring, most serious all the time, to much circus instead of playing.

[Perpetual Change]

On if Kevin Moore is just an average lyricist:

I'm not gonna quote every post or respond to every specific point made, but, "yes." I'll sum it up based on my opinion on his contributions of each album. On Images, he wrote Pull Me Under, Surrounded, and Wait for Sleep. The second two are good, but I've always considered the first to be pretty typical 80's metal stuff, cheese and all. When it comes to Awake, I like 6:00 and Space-Dye Vest, but I simply can't stand Lie. It is, by far, my least favorite Dream Theater song lyrically-- Dark Master included. Finally, most of his contributions to WDADU are complete duds. I've never understood the love for OAMOT and everything else on the record from him comes across as really sophomoric in my opinion.

So, that leaves Moore at "average" or, if I'm feeling more generous, "a cut above average" for me. While that's still better than most of what I've heard on the last two records, it's still not "good" in my opinion. I didn't think it Kevin Moore's songs were really that good before DT lyrics took the nose-dive, and now that they have in many ways I look a bit more fondly on songs like "Pull Me Under" but not by much.

Misc. points:

--The same goes for his keyboard playing, really. I like it, and I liked him, but after I listened to some of the live-boots it became apparent which keyboard parts Prater had buried and, honestly, I think Prater was in the right for doing so. Kev was sort of a sloppy live player, too, and Jordan just really does seem to have been the best fit in the long run.

--Someone mentioned Steve Wilson lyrics. I admire a lot of the guys work, but lyric writing isn't really his strong suite IMO. He is still well above average, though.
 
--Rudess does a great job with atmosphere. As did Derek. I don't think Kevin had like this monopoly on atmospheric playing that people seem to think he did.

[antigoon]

If you guys have listened to much Gentle Giant, I think it's pretty understandable why Jordan plays the way he does. They're not super "atmospheric". It's all pretty dynamic and virtuous. (It's relevant because he cites Gentle Giant as one of his main influences).

I'd take Jordan over the rest any day of the week. KM ended up being a douche, DS seemed to have other problems outside of the music (trying to score girls while on tour, making the live shows seem less serious to the point of almost being a joke), and Jordan makes the band feel like a band. He is 100% committed and it truly is an honor for me, as a fan, to have someone like that to be in the band.

Derek was making the live shows a joke? ...And what do Keytars, iPhone and iPad instruments, and an LCD screen of a cartoon wizard playing an octagonal keyboard do to the live shows?

[snapple]

If you guys have listened to much Gentle Giant, I think it's pretty understandable why Jordan plays the way he does. They're not super "atmospheric". It's all pretty dynamic and virtuous. (It's relevant because he cites Gentle Giant as one of his main influences).

I'd take Jordan over the rest any day of the week. KM ended up being a douche, DS seemed to have other problems outside of the music (trying to score girls while on tour, making the live shows seem less serious to the point of almost being a joke), and Jordan makes the band feel like a band. He is 100% committed and it truly is an honor for me, as a fan, to have someone like that to be in the band.

Derek was making the live shows a joke? ...And what do Keytars, iPhone and iPad instruments, and an LCD screen of a cartoon wizard playing an octagonal keyboard do to the live shows?

Lava lamps, shag carpets?

[ZirconBlue]

On Images, he wrote Pull Me Under, Surrounded, and Wait for Sleep. The second two are good, but I've always considered the first to be pretty typical 80's metal stuff, cheese and all.

Yeah, all those 80s hair bands were writing Hamlet-based lyrics.   

[j]

I don't dislike any of the DT keyboardists, but I'd mention these three things:

1) I much, much prefer the albums with Moore and Sherinian to those with Rudess.  How big a role does Rudess play in that?  I have no idea, probably a relatively small one.

2) DT has been weak lyrically for awhile now IMO, and they could use Moore or someone similarly skilled in that department.  I'm aware that this debate is currently raging on in this thread, so I'll leave it alone.

3) Rudess is the only one of the three who has done some things that I just don't like.  He's done a lot of stuff that I love, but I actively dislike a lot of his solos and that type of stuff, whereas I can't think of a solo, patch, or anything from Moore or Sherinian that I don't like or am at least indifferent to.

-J

[ricky]

Kevin Moore, who is my personal favorite of the three men behind the keys for DT

<3

[KevShmev]

I'd take Jordan over the rest any day of the week. KM ended up being a douche, DS seemed to have other problems outside of the music (trying to score girls while on tour, making the live shows seem less serious to the point of almost being a joke), and Jordan makes the band feel like a band. He is 100% committed and it truly is an honor for me, as a fan, to have someone like that to be in the band.

Your post not only failed on several levels, but now we are calling ex-members names?  Weak sauce.

[Perpetual Change]

On Images, he wrote Pull Me Under, Surrounded, and Wait for Sleep. The second two are good, but I've always considered the first to be pretty typical 80's metal stuff, cheese and all.

Yeah, all those 80s hair bands were writing Hamlet-based lyrics.   

That's your fault for listening to cheesey hair bands. If you woulda just stuck with good 80's metal like Iron Maiden, you'd know that literature-themed lyrics are really nothing new. 

[snapple]

I'd take Jordan over the rest any day of the week. KM ended up being a douche, DS seemed to have other problems outside of the music (trying to score girls while on tour, making the live shows seem less serious to the point of almost being a joke), and Jordan makes the band feel like a band. He is 100% committed and it truly is an honor for me, as a fan, to have someone like that to be in the band.

Your post not only failed on several levels, but now we are calling ex-members names?  Weak sauce.

Eh, kind of an off night for me.

[?]

I like Kevin's playing the most, as I prefer atmospheric keyboards to shredding. That said, Jordan is still one of my favorite keyboardists and Derek isn't bad either. Kevin just brought something special to the band with his playing and lyrics.

[ZirconBlue]

On Images, he wrote Pull Me Under, Surrounded, and Wait for Sleep. The second two are good, but I've always considered the first to be pretty typical 80's metal stuff, cheese and all.

Yeah, all those 80s hair bands were writing Hamlet-based lyrics.   

That's your fault for listening to cheesey hair bands. If you woulda just stuck with good 80's metal like Iron Maiden, you'd know that literature-themed lyrics are really nothing new. 

So, Iron Maiden's lyrics are "pretty typical 80's metal stuff, cheese and all"?

[King Postwhore]

No, he's saying Maiden's lyrics were good 80's lyrics.  I say what's so wrong with having a little cheese in your life?

Also Pull Me Under is not even close to cheese in the 80's.  Maybe you should listen yo "Unskinny Bop" PC.  That's cheese.  You off on this one.

[YtseBitsySpider]

I would have loved to have had at least one more album with Derek. I thought he had a lot to offer and didn't get to bring it all out before he got canned.

rumborak

I should sig that, I couldn't agree more.

[Perpetual Change]

No, he's saying Maiden's lyrics were good 80's lyrics.  I say what's so wrong with having a little cheese in your life?

Also Pull Me Under is not even close to cheese in the 80's.  Maybe you should listen yo "Unskinny Bop" PC.  That's cheese.  You off on this one.

What? I don't know what you're saying here.

I was responding to the post that said writing a song based on Shakespeare was unique by 80's metal standards. It wasn't. Sure, plenty of Glam and Hair bands were writing terrible songs like "Pour Some Sugar On Me," but it was a regular practice for more serious minded bands like Maiden and Priest to look toward film and literature for inspiration. So what?

Listen, I like and liked Kevin, but I just have never really agreed that he was a particularly strong lyricist.

[JPX]

If you guys have listened to much Gentle Giant, I think it's pretty understandable why Jordan plays the way he does. They're not super "atmospheric". It's all pretty dynamic and virtuous. (It's relevant because he cites Gentle Giant as one of his main influences).

I'd take Jordan over the rest any day of the week. KM ended up being a douche, DS seemed to have other problems outside of the music (trying to score girls while on tour, making the live shows seem less serious to the point of almost being a joke), and Jordan makes the band feel like a band. He is 100% committed and it truly is an honor for me, as a fan, to have someone like that to be in the band.

Derek was making the live shows a joke? ...And what do Keytars, iPhone and iPad instruments, and an LCD screen of a cartoon wizard playing an octagonal keyboard do to the live shows?

Derek had a bigger ego than Mike - which is saying something.

Plus he thought stuff like Nightmare Cinema was cool when clearly John, John and James thought it was highly embarrassing.

He didn't fit in DT which is why it was so easy for them to cut him.

[antigoon]

Nightmare Cinema was funny. And who cares about lava lamps and shag carpets, that stuff added some character to a really sterile stage performance at the time.

[chrisbDTM]

yea, he added some fun into what seemed a not so very fun time in DT history

[King Postwhore]

No, he's saying Maiden's lyrics were good 80's lyrics.  I say what's so wrong with having a little cheese in your life?

Also Pull Me Under is not even close to cheese in the 80's.  Maybe you should listen yo "Unskinny Bop" PC.  That's cheese.  You off on this one.

What? I don't know what you're saying here.

I was responding to the post that said writing a song based on Shakespeare was unique by 80's metal standards. It wasn't. Sure, plenty of Glam and Hair bands were writing terrible songs like "Pour Some Sugar On Me," but it was a regular practice for more serious minded bands like Maiden and Priest to look toward film and literature for inspiration. So what?

Listen, I like and liked Kevin, but I just have never really agreed that he was a particularly strong lyricist.

Ok PC, I got you.  I agree with you but there's nothing wrong with a little cheese once in a while.

[Infinite Cactus]

Plus he thought stuff like Nightmare Cinema was cool when clearly John, John and James thought it was highly embarrassing.

If John Petrucci didn't like it then why did he write a song for Nicky Lemons and the Migraines. Also, if they didn't like it they shouldn't have done it.  I forgot that when you go to the prog rock show its not supposed to be fun. Wait.......

[JPX]

Plus he thought stuff like Nightmare Cinema was cool when clearly John, John and James thought it was highly embarrassing.

If John Petrucci didn't like it then why did he write a song for Nicky Lemons and the Migraines. Also, if they didn't like it they shouldn't have done it.  I forgot that when you go to the prog rock show its not supposed to be fun. Wait.......

Listen to the commentary on 5YIaL - in retrospect they allude to how lame it was.

It's one thing to write a fun song on a plane - it's another to do it on stage and embarrass yourself.

[Infinite Cactus]

I always got the impression from that commentary and from Lifting Shadows, that they enjoyed it. But I also got the impression that some of the fan base didn't like it or think it was professional and once they caught wind of that they weren't maybe on board with it anymore. But even in Lifting Shadows, JP said it was fun. I just think its weird to make it a thing that's negative about Derek when they all obviously took the time to learn songs on different instruments and then the fact that they did it several times.

[MetropolisxPt1]

I always got the impression from that commentary and from Lifting Shadows, that they enjoyed it. But I also got the impression that some of the fan base didn't like it or think it was professional and once they caught wind of that they weren't maybe on board with it anymore. But even in Lifting Shadows, JP said it was fun. I just think its weird to make it a thing that's negative about Derek when they all obviously took the time to learn songs on different instruments and then the fact that they did it several times.

I liked when they played Perfect strangers and Labrie always killed it. Best version is the SOC bootleg the 2nd time they performed as NC, JLB forgets the words.

[Jaq]

Hmm.

My all time favorite keyboardist, to tie this into the 70s music the OP mentioned, is Tony Banks of Genesis. Not the virtuosos that Rick Wakeman or Keith Emerson were, not the gritty rocker that Jon Lord was, Tony Banks just brought, for lack of a better term, feel to his playing. Listen to his solo in the "Apocalypse in 9/8" section of "Supper's Ready" and tell me he can't play. Criminally underrated player. If I was to make a clumsy comparison between 70s keyboardists and the three DT ones, Kevin Moore would be Tony Banks. Good songwriter (not as good as Banks, but we're stretching it here as it is), great at atmosphere and color, capable of bringing it technically.

Continuing the likely bad comparisons-Derek would be Rick Wakeman. More flamboyant, more capable technically, able to bring more of a rock feel to the songs. And IMO, like Wakeman in that while Derek fit well with the band, he seemed to stand apart from it too. Furthering this comparison, Rudess would be Emerson-the guy capable of doing ANYTHING and he lets you know it every time he plays.

The thing is, every keyboard player in DT has brought what the music needed at the time it was recorded. I can't imagine DT with Jordan or Derek making the same music they made with Kevin Moore, which is sort of the point. They all brought what was needed.

For the record, of the three my favorite is Rudess. Because he can do anything, and he lets you know it. But all three are great.