DT's three keyboardists...

[Samsara]

I've been on a huge 70s rock trip lately, Deep Purple, UFO, that sort of thing. But I took a break and jumped into some DT in the last week, and it shocked me, after not listening to DT for a long time, how incredibly distinct and different each of their three keyboardists are (and yes, I'll tie in the 70s comment in a sec).

Kevin Moore, who is my personal favorite of the three men behind the keys for DT, really added this atmospheric, cerebral approach to songs. Sure, he could solo with the best of them, but I loved how his stuff was so moody. Add to that his talent as a lyric writer, and he really brings a unique element to DT

Derek Sherinian is completely different. Derek is much more of a 70s-type player. Has a lot more organ in his tone, absolutely influenced by Deep Purple and ELP, and he didn't contribute much lyrically to the band.But his style is very different to Kevin.

Jordan, the most talented and gifted of the three in terms of being a pure player (IMO), is again, totally different, but able to easily play and capture the same feel when he performs the other two guys' parts. But Jordan is more of a virtuoso and has a much more structured sound.

Everyone here who knows me knows I think Jordan is a cool dude and I respect his playing ability, but obviously, I haven't been as huge on DT music as I had been pre-Jordan. But the whole immersing myself in 1970s hard rock really had the effect of slapping me upside the head with the distinction of these three keyboardists. Particularly Derek.

/ramble.

[rumborak]

I would have loved to have had at least one more album with Derek. I thought he had a lot to offer and didn't get to bring it all out before he got canned.

rumborak

[Chrissalix]

Kevin Moore is probably the least accomplished of the three but he fitted the band like a glove on I&W and Awake. Rudess and Sherinian smoke him but Moore was (musically) the best fit for that stuff.

I prefer Rudess to Sherinian. Both are capable players but for me Rudess brings a new element to DT as showcased in the almost orchestral playing and arrangements on Scenes and 6DOIT which puts him above Sherinian (whose work on FII is often overlooked - Lines in the Sand anyone?). It's a shame Sherinian didn't get a second go at it so to speak but he wasn't their first choice in the first place.

[SDFprowler]

I completely agree with you, rumborak.  He had real potential as a musically creative force in Dream Theater.  Derek has gone on to become my favorite keyboardist due to his solo work and Planet X.  His sound, style, musical identity.. whatever you want to call it.. is so unique and unlike anything I've heard from other players.

[Vajra]

OP... I tried to make my username Samsara. Thanks to you I couldn't!


I will get my revenge!

[Adami]

OP... I tried to make my username Samsara. Thanks to you I couldn't!


I will get my revenge!

Maybe in your next life.




That joke felt good.

[Vajra]

OP... I tried to make my username Samsara. Thanks to you I couldn't!


I will get my revenge!

Maybe in your next life.




That joke felt good.

Haha, that was pretty good actually.

[Samsara]

OP... I tried to make my username Samsara. Thanks to you I couldn't!


I will get my revenge!

Maybe in your next life.




That joke felt good.

Haha, that was pretty good actually.

Agreed. Good joke.

Had this name for years. Go find another one. Not giving it up. 

[JPX]

Kevin Moore, who is my personal favorite of the three men behind the keys for DT, really added this atmospheric, cerebral approach to songs. Sure, he could solo with the best of them, but I loved how his stuff was so moody. Add to that his talent as a lyric writer, and he really brings a unique element to DT

Kevin had a great sound but his lyrics were awful. Plus he couldn't really solo with the best of them, he is/was a mediocre keyboardist.

[BanksD]

Kevin is my personal favorite of the keyboardists but between him and JR it is VERY close. Kevin I liked more for his song writing ability and his way of bringing an atmosphere to certain songs (PMU intro, 6:00, SDV, etc.), but I love Jordan because well, have you heard the man play? So it is very close but i'd have to go with KM.


Derek, well, I personally echo the statement of "he had so much potential" I do wish we had gotten to hear more of him in DT, but for what we have of him I can appreciate what he brings to the table.

[MetropolisxPt1]

Kevin Moore, who is my personal favorite of the three men behind the keys for DT, really added this atmospheric, cerebral approach to songs. Sure, he could solo with the best of them, but I loved how his stuff was so moody. Add to that his talent as a lyric writer, and he really brings a unique element to DT

Kevin had a great sound but his lyrics were awful. Plus he couldn't really solo with the best of them, he is/was a mediocre keyboardist.

He was far from mediocre, metropolis anyone?

However I really enjoyed DS's sound.


Jordans background in classical piano shows in his style and brings another element to the style blender that is DT.

[chaotic_ripper]

Kevmo's lyrics were great and Take The Time, and Under a Glass Moon have my favorite keyboard solos ever. Even JR has said he loves the TTT solo...despite butchering it with the keytar.  Sorry, I went too far.

[KevShmev]

 

Kevin had a great sound but his lyrics were awful. Plus he couldn't really solo with the best of them, he is/was a mediocre keyboardist.

lolwut (at practically this entire post)?

[JPX]

Kevin had a great sound but his lyrics were awful. Plus he couldn't really solo with the best of them, he is/was a mediocre keyboardist.

lolwut (at practically this entire post)?

His lyrics did nothing for me.

And on the keyboard depth chart, he's pretty low down, technically speaking.

[KevShmev]

Kevin had a great sound but his lyrics were awful. Plus he couldn't really solo with the best of them, he is/was a mediocre keyboardist.

lolwut (at practically this entire post)?

His lyrics did nothing for me.

And on the keyboard depth chart, he's pretty low down, technically speaking.

Who do you think writes good lyrics?

What rock or metal keyboardists do you honestly think are better than Kevin Moore?  Even if you think he is the least best of the three DT have had, he is still pretty high up on the list.  Remember that the crazy unison lines that DT are known for were started by Petrucci and Moore, and someone down pretty low on the technical scale wouldn't be able to pull probably any of them off.

[ElliottTamer]

Hmm, interesting topic. I didn't really expect so many people to prefer Moore. If I had to choose one, I would pick Rudess, but that is really more because a) he's the one I'm more familiar with (videos of him playing classical music or with DT) and b) I tend to prefer DT's albums where he is present (Falling Into Infinity, Awake and When Dream and Day Unite are rather down in my list...)
But then again, it probably really depends on how you meet (or maybe when) the band. I started listening to them after Octavarium and Metropolis Pt.2 is my favourite album ever, so that makes me biased.

[setrataeso]

Kind of off-topic, but I think it's interesting how the guys who got fired are on much better terms with the band than the guys who chose to leave.
Dominici and Derek both are on excellent terms with the rest of the guys in Dream Theater (no idea about Collins tho...), whereas Kevin has extracted the DT part of his life out of his mind, and Portnoy made a big scene when he left, and is still seemingly a tad butthurt about it. Granted, Mike's opinion could change over time, but I found it interesting that the members that were fired from the band took it well and had no hard feelings about it. I have much respect towards Charlie and Derek for that.

[Infinite Cactus]

Derek is my favorite. Especially because of his solo work. I really wished they would have just kept him and added Jordan. lol rhythm keyboardist and lead keyboardist. I think Derek is a fantastic rock/fusion composer on the keys.

Jordan is by far the most overall gifted keyboardist. He is simply a genius. While his style is not my favorite of the three, I think he is honestly the best suited for the job and wouldn't trade him for anyone. As said above, it would have been neat to have both guys, but obviously, makes no sense logistically.

Kevin Moore. What else can be said. His lyrics are amazing and while he may not be the flashiest player, he is still phenomenal. His compositions are brilliant. He's really good at making one chord say everything you need it to say and more. And when he does(did) solo, it was always in a way that enhanced the song. Its kind of like Zakk Wylde in the sense that, sure he can tear it up, but you can practically sing the No More Tears solo and its still considered one of the best out there. Kevin plays to the strengths of the songs.

[Mebert78]

Obviously, I prefer Moore.  As I've said before, what sets Kevin apart for me wasn't just his playing -- it's the fact that he was the band's first keyboardist and that means he helped to create DT's unique sound, while the other two guys just took over a spot already forged by Kevin.  My point is, it's hard to be the pioneer like KM, but it's a little easier to be the follower once that door has been opened.  Before Kevin, I personally wasn't aware of any prog keyboardists that were riffing in guitar-style fashion at high speeds and doing trade-off solos with guitars, etc.  The prog metal template before DT was Queensryche and Fates Warning, and they didn't have a keyboardist.  So Kevin really created his own niche in the genre -- and it was an overwhelming success.  Most prog metal bands these days seem to have keyboardists.  I give Kevin some credit for that.  What he achieved is no small feat.  

Getting back to the topic at hand (which is whose playing we prefer), I also happen to LOVE Jordan.  I think he's the perfect fit for current DT.  And over the years I've come to really appreciate Derek's playing on Falling Into Infinity.  But something about Kevin's playing on those first three DT albums always touched me more than anything JR or DS has done.

[antigoon]

Derek was always my favorite stylistically. He brought a bit of flair to DT which I thought was great.

[Jamesman42]

All 3 have their respective strengths, and I love all of their output for the most part.

[In The Name Of Rudess]

Kevin had a great sound but his lyrics were awful. Plus he couldn't really solo with the best of them, he is/was a mediocre keyboardist.

lolwut (at practically this entire post)?

His lyrics did nothing for me.

And on the keyboard depth chart, he's pretty low down, technically speaking.

Who do you think writes good lyrics?

What rock or metal keyboardists do you honestly think are better than Kevin Moore?  Even if you think he is the least best of the three DT have had, he is still pretty high up on the list.  Remember that the crazy unison lines that DT are known for were started by Petrucci and Moore, and someone down pretty low on the technical scale wouldn't be able to pull probably any of them off.

Those lines, including the ones in Metropolis, aren't really that difficult. Any reasonably talented 9 or 10-year old piano student could easily play them.

[champbassist]

Kevin had a great sound but his lyrics were awful. Plus he couldn't really solo with the best of them, he is/was a mediocre keyboardist.

[robwebster]

I'm not sure precisely when it was that "troll" stopped referring to wind-up merchants and started referring to anyone with an uncommon opinion.

But for what it's worth, I've always considered Kevin Moore fairly middle-of-the-road, both as a lyricist and as a keyboardist. Upper-middle, sure. But middle. Perfectly capable, often damn cool, but far from top-bracket.

Sorry to troll so hard and that.

[farsight]

One thing I really liked about Derek Sherinian was when he and JP played the same things, his tone combined with jp's guitar tone to become one thick and creamy sound. Of course, that can be done through good mixing, but I always thought that a major part of why FII and ACOS sounded the best among DT's albums was because of Derek.

[TAC]

I do like Derek's sound, but I still haven't figured out what he added musically. I kind of tune out most of that era anyway. Just semed like an awkward time.

I think Derek's biggest contribution, though, was that he was a professional musician well before he joined DT. That was a tough time internally for the band, and I think it was good to have a personality like Derek's at that time.

[Perpetual Change]

Kevin had a great sound but his lyrics were awful. Plus he couldn't really solo with the best of them, he is/was a mediocre keyboardist.

lolwut (at practically this entire post)?

His lyrics did nothing for me.

And on the keyboard depth chart, he's pretty low down, technically speaking.

Who do you think writes good lyrics?

I agree actually that Kevin Moore's lyrics were not very good. During his time in the band, he was the worst lyricist in the band in my opinion. But if he were in the band today, writing at the same quality as he did back then*, he'd easily be the best. I don't know what this has to do with Sam's thread, though, but I concur with the general idea that it would have been cool to have more albums with Derek.

*However, judging by his lyrics in OSI, I doubt that would happen. 

[jdprsaga]

I have mixed feelings as they add different things to DT.. and i'm talking just about keyboard.. no comments on lyrics.

Kevin: best moods and  melody
Derek: Best solos and sound, no one solo like him.. bad ass.
Jordan: best arrangements, composition.

I think Jordan is the one who add the most to DT, he is just an amazing musician and he is always pushing for more, but i would love to see him using derek sound in his leads.

[ReaPsTA]

There are really people who think KM was only a middle-of-the-road lyricist?  How exactly do you guys define good lyrics then?

[champbassist]

I'm not sure precisely when it was that "troll" stopped referring to wind-up merchants and started referring to anyone with an uncommon opinion.

But for what it's worth, I've always considered Kevin Moore fairly middle-of-the-road, both as a lyricist and as a keyboardist. Upper-middle, sure. But middle. Perfectly capable, often damn cool, but far from top-bracket.

Sorry to troll so hard and that.

IMO, explaining your uncommon opinion like you did is not trolling. Blurting out 3 lines dissing somebody in a curt manner, though, is.

There are really people who think KM was only a middle-of-the-road lyricist?  How exactly do you guys define good lyrics then?

My thoughts exactly.

[robwebster]

There are really people who think KM was only a middle-of-the-road lyricist?  How exactly do you guys define good lyrics then?

I don't know. I think on the sliding scale of lyricism he's probably a head above many of the rest, but that's more because most rock musicians can barely string a sentence together, and the ones that can are, quite rightly, more interested in the music.

I'm not trying to belittle him. He's literate, and as I said, often damn cool. He uses imagery well, painting pictures far better than most rock musicians could hope to. I've never seen anything from him that I'd consider stunning. He writes good, solid rock lyrics, and is incredibly consistent - enviably consistent - but he's never wowed me. Not profound nor stunning, a steady "B+."

I wouldn't say any of DT's lyricists, past or future, are A strikers. Kevin's probably had a couple, I'd give J-Pizzle's Misunderstood an A, and Mike would get one for the sublime A Change of Seasons. None of them are unadultered geniuses, but Kevin's not even the most consistent contributor they've had - say hello, John Myung!

Maybe I'm overestimating what can be feasably conveyed in a rock song. His lyrics are more interesting than many - he's definitely at the top of the middle - but, and this is a very predictable DTF-answer, but I'd argue that Steven Wilson for instance would be in that higher tier (for such works as, say, the entirity of Deadwing), whereas Kevin Moore is just consistently nifty.

[ReaPsTA]

There are really people who think KM was only a middle-of-the-road lyricist?  How exactly do you guys define good lyrics then?

I don't know. I think on the sliding scale of lyricism he's probably a head above many of the rest, but that's more because most rock musicians can barely string a sentence together, and the ones that can are, quite rightly, more interested in the music.

I'm not trying to belittle him. He's literate, and as I said, often damn cool. He uses imagery well, painting pictures far better than most rock musicians could hope to. I've never seen anything from him that I'd consider stunning. He writes good, solid rock lyrics, and is incredibly consistent - enviably consistent - but he's never wowed me. Not profound nor stunning, a steady "B+."

I wouldn't say any of DT's lyricists, past or future, are A strikers. Kevin's probably had a couple, I'd give J-Pizzle's Misunderstood an A, and Mike would get one for the sublime A Change of Seasons. None of them are unadultered geniuses, but Kevin's not even the most consistent contributor they've had - say hello, John Myung!

Maybe I'm overestimating what can be feasably conveyed in a rock song. His lyrics are more interesting than many - he's definitely at the top of the middle - but, and this is a very predictable DTF-answer, but I'd argue that Steven Wilson for instance would be in that higher tier (for such works as, say, the entirity of Deadwing), whereas Kevin Moore is just consistently nifty.

I see that we don't agree on what constitutes good lyrics.  At all.  Misunderstood an A?  Well then.  I don't even know how to reply.

[KevShmev]

Moore might not be a Waters, a Peart or a Wilson when it comes to lyrics, but he is still pretty damn good.  When you take into account the entire body of lyrical work of everyone who has written lyrics for Dream Theater (meaning, looking at the lyrics they wrote with the band as well as elsewhere), he is easily the best by far, unless you want to say Myung, but he has such a small body of work, that it is hard to put him up there.  It is the equivalent of saying a RB who had one great season in the NFL is one of the all-time greats.  Petrucci would have been on or close to Moore's level eight years ago, but the quality of his lyrics have really taken a hit in recent years.  It is still hard to fathom that the guy who once wrote Voices also wrote The Count of Tuscany.

[ReaPsTA]

After thinking for a few moments, I do have something resembling a reply.

Yeah, I can agree that KM never wrote a set of lyrics as good as Trial of Tears (maybe the best DT song lyrically), Voices, or Scarred.  But a B+ seems almost like an insult.  "It was almost great, but it's only very good."  KM's lyrics still have tons of great moments, like the chorus of Pull Me Under, the big "LET THE LIGHT SURROUND YOU" before the solo in [I'm not saying which song because there's no way anyone reading this can't understand what song I'm referencing], or the cool "trust you as far as I can throw you" turn of phrase in Lie.

I'd also say that from WDADU to FII, JP was right there with KM in lyrical ability.  He wasn't as consistently great maybe, but his peaks (again, Voices and Scarred) were greater.  And even the complete nonsensical drug trip lyrics like Metropolis and Under a Glass Moon are fun to sing.

Yeah, it's tough to say Myung is the best DT lyricist because he's written so little (although ADTOE will be a huge moment both because his body of work will probably get 50% larger and because it's so long after his last song), but it's still really hard to say he isn't.  I can't think of a DT song with better lyrics than Trial of Tears, and Learning to Live is probably another top five song lyrically.  And then Lifting Shadows is probably another top 10 candidate.  How am I supposed to argue against that level of quality?

Also, something both Kev and Rob said, are you guys really that into Steve Wilson as a lyricist?  I find him... I dunno... adequate?  I think he writes good melodies, I guess, but he writes so much stuff I feel Tuscany-level embarrassment listening to, and that's with no one around.

"Like a cancer scare
In the dentist's chair"

I feel like I'm in a dentist's chair when I hear that line.  And yes, I went back and edited my post just to throw in a cheap shot at Steve Wilson and by extension the people who enjoy his work.  I FEEL PASSIONATELY ABOUT THIS DAMNIT!!!

[JPX]

There are really people who think KM was only a middle-of-the-road lyricist?  How exactly do you guys define good lyrics then?

MJK.