The Mike Mangini Thread (Thanks & Farewell)

[Stadler]

Not going to reply to all of it (not because it's not worth it, but because I really don't disagree with you).  Except: 

How about this: Because I am genuinely curious, I asked JP directly to his face if the drummer change was because he was unhappy about something. His response could not have been more confident and clear: "not at all." He did not answer the other question I asked him in such a matter-of-fact manner.

Perfect Stranger:  Hey, you just divorced your wife after 10 years to go bang your secretary.  Did your wife suck in bed?  Was it something else?
Man:  Not at all.

Look, if you were his buddy that he would share info with you, that's one thing. I don't think you're lying, I don't think you're mistaken, I don't think you didn't experience that, but I'm not sure that's the same as a death-bed confession or testimony under oath subject to cross-examination.

Plus you would think that at some point over the last 13 years if his performance was suffering someone would have noticed in on record, off record, at the venue. So, unless there is some reason to believe this was performance related the burden is greater on someone claiming it is or basically saying 'maybe.maybe not.' If we searched for all the times the band sung MM's praises over the years it would seem extremely odd to learn that they actually weren't all that happy with his performance, so I think we can put that possibility to bed.

For the record, I wasn't limiting anything to "performance".  I'm not a drummer, but by all accounts, he's at the top of his game.  I cited Bruce Kulick and Ian Gillan, because a) I think it's not up for debate that Bruce Kulick was coming off his best Kiss album - Revenge - and was not only at the top of his game, but also a far more accomplished player than the original, Ace, who had to be re-taught his parts, and b) because technically speaking Ian Gillan is in the running for the most technically accomplished of all the singers in Black Sabbath, and who remains close friends with Tony Iommi.  They both admit the other is the best or one of the best at what they do and that they remain close, but Ian just wasn't the right singer for Sabbath.  It doesn't have to be tangible. Ever go on a date with a hot, smart, funny gal/guy, and yet there just wasn't chemistry after the "honeymoon period" wore off?

I am not downplaying it. I do think it's interesting you view uncontested public statements from people who were there as insufficient to resolve total ambiguity over high level details of what happened, but you're entirely comfortable presuming there was something specific he should have seen in JP to know this was going to happen. 

That's not what I'm saying, in fact the opposite.  I am NOT "presuming there was something specific he should have seen in JP". I'm saying as a general proposition, when you take a job like that, if you're not looking over your shoulder, you're not paying attention.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Not going to reply to all of it (not because it's not worth it, but because I really don't disagree with you).  Except: 

Perfect Stranger:  Hey, you just divorced your wife after 10 years to go bang your secretary.  Did your wife suck in bed?  Was it something else?
Man:  Not at all.

Look, if you were his buddy that he would share info with you, that's one thing. I don't think you're lying, I don't think you're mistaken, I don't think you didn't experience that, but I'm not sure that's the same as a death-bed confession or testimony under oath subject to cross-examination.

For the record, I wasn't limiting anything to "performance".  I'm not a drummer, but by all accounts, he's at the top of his game.  I cited Bruce Kulick and Ian Gillan, because a) I think it's not up for debate that Bruce Kulick was coming off his best Kiss album - Revenge - and was not only at the top of his game, but also a far more accomplished player than the original, Ace, who had to be re-taught his parts, and b) because technically speaking Ian Gillan is in the running for the most technically accomplished of all the singers in Black Sabbath, and who remains close friends with Tony Iommi.  They both admit the other is the best or one of the best at what they do and that they remain close, but Ian just wasn't the right singer for Sabbath.  It doesn't have to be tangible. Ever go on a date with a hot, smart, funny gal/guy, and yet there just wasn't chemistry after the "honeymoon period" wore off?

That's not what I'm saying, in fact the opposite.  I am NOT "presuming there was something specific he should have seen in JP". I'm saying as a general proposition, when you take a job like that, if you're not looking over your shoulder, you're not paying attention.

I guess what I'm getting at is there is and has been literally 0 to support the theoretical possibilities you're throwing out there, which as far as I can tell are - among other things - being used to cast doubt on the notion that he was replaced due to factors largely beyond his control.

[hefdaddy42]

Obviously it had little, if anything, to do with Mangini as a person or a musician, or they could have gotten rid of him at any point. The stars aligned for a reunion with Portnoy, so they made the move. That's the way it seems to me, and it also seems that everyone has been a professional about it, and Mangini understood. 

[TAC]

Obviously it had little, if anything, to do with Mangini as a person or a musician, or they could have gotten rid of him at any point. The stars aligned for a reunion with Portnoy, so they made the move. That's the way it seems to me, and it also seems that everyone has been a professional about it, and Mangini understood.

100%

[MoraWintersoul]

I hear you, I do.  But I'm saying that independent of what is said outright, history shows that except for one band - ONE (The Beatles) - other than original members (or classic members), no position is sacred.  Mike M. is enough of a student of music to know that. 

I hear you too, and for the record, I posted on this forum way before the James/Mike reunion that I think it's fully possible DT could let MM go to reunite with MP. But there was a couple of years in between where MM would have probably felt very certain in his position despite being a student of music, and the fact that everyone's statements post-reunion including MM's pretty much characterized him as a temporary placeholder for MP bothers me despite them all being students of music.

I'm a big fan of your wives being involved and them all being family explanation - not that it's on the same level, but I'm wifey to one member of a long-running local band and my opinion and the opinions of the other wives have influenced one little reunion between them but for a while it felt like Mike was moving away from that family and they were moving away from him, and those little reunions between JP and MP fam in particular felt like the re-establishing of a more normal dynamic after the breakup, not the beginning of a reunion. Until suddenly they didn't feel like that.

[Ben_Jamin]

What more should they have done?

Reminds me of Derek Sherinian's situation. What more should they have done?

No matter what, MM is still considered a part of the DT family, the same way Sherinian was considered enough a part of the family still to join them for WDADRU.


I could see in the future Mangini joining them for a song, or for some special occasion down the line.

[DTiwbwMP]

I believe that if dreamsonic was a big success, DT wouldn't have even considered bringing MP back AT THIS POINT. I DO NOT THINK that MM being replaced had ANYTHING to do with him, but instead had EVERYTHING to do with the floundering attendance of dreamsonic.

[TAC]

I DO NOT THINK that MM being replaced had ANYTHING to do with him,

It didn't.

I believe that if dreamsonic was a big success, DT wouldn't have even considered bringing MP back AT THIS POINT. ... but instead had EVERYTHING to do with the floundering attendance of dreamsonic.

I don't believe this.

I don't know how long Dreamsonic was in the works, but I don't believe it was in the long term plan. I bought my tickets the day they went on sale on 4/14/23, and my show was less two and a half months away. That's at least half of their typical lead time to sell tickets.

Personally, I considered not going for the following reasons, basically, I assumed it would be a shorter set, and we'd get the standard package setlist including PMU and TSCO. Once the tour started, it was clear that James was ... struggling to put it nicely. I mean, he was spent before the tour was even announced. Plus, they did that waste of an encore with all the bands on stage. That shit is corny AF. I know Devin Townsend got rave reviews and all, but in my mind, DT is already playing a shorter set, and now the encore was lost too.

I don't feel like Dreamsonic really ever had a chance. I wouldn't be shocked if they knew before Dreamsonic that MP would be returning.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I believe that if dreamsonic was a big success, DT wouldn't have even considered bringing MP back AT THIS POINT. I DO NOT THINK that MM being replaced had ANYTHING to do with him, but instead had EVERYTHING to do with the floundering attendance of dreamsonic.

I suspect this was a big piece of the puzzle but that the personal connection MP had to JP also mattered big time and that both things were critical to what ultimately happened. As another poster said, the stars just aligned for this to happen. If View and DreamSonic were a box office smash we would not be talking about Portnoy's return in my humble opinion. As I said when this all went down, my observation is that in business the top guys stay put when the money is flowing in and everything is milk and honey. You get major personnel shake ups primarily when the cash is *not* flowing in as desired.

[Stadler]

I guess what I'm getting at is there is and has been literally 0 to support the theoretical possibilities you're throwing out there, which as far as I can tell are - among other things - being used to cast doubt on the notion that he was replaced due to factors largely beyond his control.

Not quite.  You are right; there isn't much to support any of my theoretical possibilities (except for the family thing; the family thing is well documented, and the resurrection of Meanstreak is a big part of that).  All I'm saying, though, is that there isn't a lot to support ANY of the theoretical possibilities that are being put forth. All I'm saying is that band dynamics are like multi-variable calculus equations. It's not always "black and white, this event happened, then that event happened completely as a result of the first one with no other influence."  That this was "due to factors largely beyond his control" is perfectly plausible; I wouldn't argue that seriously.  That DOESN'T necessarily mean that the suppositions here have to follow. 

Whatever; we'll wait to the book(s) come out.  I'm sure there's an autobiography or two somewhere down the line. 

[Stadler]

It didn't.


I don't believe this.

I don't know how long Dreamsonic was in the works, but I don't believe it was in the long term plan. I bought my tickets the day they went on sale on 4/14/23, and my show was less two and a half months away. That's at least half of their typical lead time to sell tickets.

Personally, I considered not going for the following reasons, basically, I assumed it would be a shorter set, and we'd get the standard package setlist including PMU and TSCO. Once the tour started, it was clear that James was ... struggling to put it nicely. I mean, he was spent before the tour was even announced. Plus, they did that waste of an encore with all the bands on stage. That shit is corny AF. I know Devin Townsend got rave reviews and all, but in my mind, DT is already playing a shorter set, and now the encore was lost too.

I don't feel like Dreamsonic really ever had a chance. I wouldn't be shocked if they knew before Dreamsonic that MP would be returning.

I've said this before and I'll keep saying it: there was something different around the vibe of the John solo shows.  There was something tangible there (and by the way, around those shows is where I came up with the "family input" angle). 

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Not quite.  You are right; there isn't much to support any of my theoretical possibilities (except for the family thing; the family thing is well documented, and the resurrection of Meanstreak is a big part of that).  All I'm saying, though, is that there isn't a lot to support ANY of the theoretical possibilities that are being put forth. All I'm saying is that band dynamics are like multi-variable calculus equations. It's not always "black and white, this event happened, then that event happened completely as a result of the first one with no other influence."  That this was "due to factors largely beyond his control" is perfectly plausible; I wouldn't argue that seriously.  That DOESN'T necessarily mean that the suppositions here have to follow. 

Whatever; we'll wait to the book(s) come out.  I'm sure there's an autobiography or two somewhere down the line. 

Except they're not. And more to the point, in life we do not function or analyze things only if the universe gifts us exact mathematical inputs and equations. Whether you're an historian trying to figure out what someone said or did a thousand years ago, or a lawyer trying to prove guilt, an analyst trying to figure out why Google stock is up 20% YTD, or just a big Dream Theater fan analyzing an interesting moment in the band's history, we are inherently working with incomplete information, probabilities, and what is likely and unlikely to have happened. It is highly unlikely that John Petrucci and Mike Portnoy are secretly in a romantic relationship and MP threatened to spill the beans unless he was rehired into DT. Yet there is as much evidence - direct, anecdotal, circumstantial, really any -for this as there is some of the theoretical possibilities you continue to raise.

If that changes in a racy 2050 memoir, I will be the first to reevaluate. But at the end of the day there are simply some things that are very likely to have happened because they have tangible supporting evidence, and at the other end of the spectrum there are things that have ZERO evidence, that are contradicted by public statements and the best information we have available to us (by the way, weren't you the one clinging to the idea that Mangini voluntarily left the band even after public statements made it clear as day he was replaced? That one belongs in the same bucket as the intimate affair theory). Thus, if you're going to give weight to something like the latter and contradict the former, you should have a damn good reason other than just it could technically be true. The lack of direct scientific proof of anything does not create equality amongst all ideas.

Unless you have something real in support of it, raising doubts over whether MM did an excellent job ('we don't know. We don't') at his job when there is 13 years of direct evidence of his performances, gushing comments from the band at every turn, invitations to perform with JP outside of DT - I could go on - is a theoretical exercise not to be taken seriously. Moreover, it appears to me that if you're reaching that hard to try to implant these types of doubts, you have some sort of motive. You're entitled to think whatever you want and again, if you turn out to be right I will be the first to concede. But until then, some of these 'we don't know's are just straight up nonsense.

[emtee]

In an interview after the reunion announcement JLB (pretty sure it was him but I might be mistaken) said something like, "...return to the best version of the band."

So it could be many things, some we may never know about, but in the final analysis; performance wise, financially, social media, artistic creation...all these criteria appear to indicate that the band members felt that the best version of the band was with MP.

[nikatapi]

MP was simply not "just the drummer".
MM was hired to be "just the drummer". And he was ok with that, in that context i believe he did an overall amazing job, both creatively and during the live shows.

My belief as many people said, is that the decision to have MP back in the band was a culmination of different things.
First of all, i think commercially (despite the grammy) - DT were in a relative decline in show attendance (and static setlists maybe didn't help so much). That definitely must have created some concerns.

Secondly, MP's creative input in terms of arrangement, bringing ideas and perspectives is something that could have been missed from the band after a while. Maybe the LTE reunion "rekindled" this vibe and inspiration.

Also, realistically speaking, DT are getting older as a group, so their productive years are starting to be numbered, especially if we take touring into account. So i think, given also the perceived commercial decline, maybe prompted them to consider what a boost MP's return would give to the brand, capitalize on it for as much as they can/want, and close the chapter of the band in a "reunited" form.

[gborland]

MM was not naïve enough to think he would be in the band forever. He knew MP would be back one day.

[Trav]

I think it was something JP had been contemplating for a while. Dreamsonic was probably what convinced him.

[Stadler]

Except they're not.

Oh, I read this and had a visceral reaction.  I literally said out loud, "no".  On this one, I say respectfully, you are dead wrong.  We might not be defining "multi-variable" differently, but on this point I believe there's no discussion.

And more to the point, in life we do not function or analyze things only if the universe gifts us exact mathematical inputs and equations. Whether you're an historian trying to figure out what someone said or did a thousand years ago, or a lawyer trying to prove guilt, an analyst trying to figure out why Google stock is up 20% YTD, or just a big Dream Theater fan analyzing an interesting moment in the band's history, we are inherently working with incomplete information, probabilities, and what is likely and unlikely to have happened. It is highly unlikely that John Petrucci and Mike Portnoy are secretly in a romantic relationship and MP threatened to spill the beans unless he was rehired into DT. Yet there is as much evidence - direct, anecdotal, circumstantial, really any -for this as there is some of the theoretical possibilities you continue to raise.

On all that I agree, but I'm not talking about "there are infinite possibilities".  I'm saying that NOTHING is as simple as "x happened, therefore, y, and only y, happened, in sequence, thus triggering a complete and total reaction of z."   I'm saying that there might be multiple inputs that lead up to a conclusion, and none of it has to make any sense to anyone other than the people making the decisions.  It's not about "infinite possibilities", it's about the nuance of human interaction.  It doesn't have to be that Mangini did anything wrong. It doesn't have to be that "Dreamsonic didn't sell to our satisfaction."   Honestly, even JP might not know when the switch was flipped, or how, or what caused it.  You never just realized one day that either your partner, your job, your location, whatever, wasn't what you wanted and you needed change?

If that changes in a racy 2050 memoir, I will be the first to reevaluate. But at the end of the day there are simply some things that are very likely to have happened because they have tangible supporting evidence, and at the other end of the spectrum there are things that have ZERO evidence, that are contradicted by public statements and the best information we have available to us (by the way, weren't you the one clinging to the idea that Mangini voluntarily left the band even after public statements made it clear as day he was replaced? That one belongs in the same bucket as the intimate affair theory). Thus, if you're going to give weight to something like the latter and contradict the former, you should have a damn good reason other than just it could technically be true. The lack of direct scientific proof of anything does not create equality amongst all ideas.

"Cling" is a strong word, but yeah, I was late to the voluntarily leaving conclusion, but so be it. I own it. But see above.

Unless you have something real in support of it, raising doubts over whether MM did an excellent job ('we don't know. We don't') at his job when there is 13 years of direct evidence of his performances, gushing comments from the band at every turn, invitations to perform with JP outside of DT - I could go on - is a theoretical exercise not to be taken seriously. Moreover, it appears to me that if you're reaching that hard to try to implant these types of doubts, you have some sort of motive. You're entitled to think whatever you want and again, if you turn out to be right I will be the first to concede. But until then, some of these 'we don't know's are just straight up nonsense.

I'm not at all questioning Mangini's performance, and I don't know where you got that. I'm saying the exact opposite, that it MAY not have anything to do with his performance either way.  This is difficult, Barstool, because it looks like I'm being contradictory and I don't feel like I am. I'm not dealing with this in hard black and white like you seem to be. You are right, we can only go by what we are presented.  All I am saying is, that we have to be careful of the weights we put on evidences, and the conclusions we draw when we are presented with that evidence. I'm not suggesting that everything they say is a lie, far from it, I'm saying that no statement, no piece of evidence, stands alone and is definitive.  I can probably point to 1,000 interviews with bands that say "wow, this album is our best album we've done. We can't wait to play it for our fans.", then when the sales figures come in, they never play another track off that album for the rest of their career.  Or "getting so-and-so in the band was life-blood and we are better than we've ever been at this point. Former guy who?" then two years later, new guy is gone and there's either another new guy or the old guy comes back.  Sabbath, Yes, Kiss, Jane's Addiction, Tull, Van Halen, Iron Maiden, Fleetwood Mac, Duran Duran, Deep Purple, Bruce Springsteen, King Crimson, Michael Schenker, Neil Young, Eagles, Ozzy, Oasis, Robert Plant, all have experienced these sorts of gives and takes with members.

There are emotions involved, and when there are emotions involved, things can be variable and uncertain even to the participants, and that makes analysis by people like you and me very very difficult.  That's all I'm saying; think what you want, but embed it in concrete at your own risk. 

[Setlist Scotty]

MM was not naïve enough to think he would be in the band forever. He knew MP would be back one day.

The way things fell apart in 2010, I doubt that was what MM thought at the time he joined the band. However, as tensions between MP and the rest of the band began to thaw - especially once he patched things up with JL - it was something that probably started to linger in the back of his mind.

[TAC]

I think it was something JP had been contemplating for a while. Dreamsonic was probably what convinced him.

I honestly don't think Dreamsonic had anything to do with it.

[Schurftkut]

future will tell if it comes back

[Setlist Scotty]

future will tell if it comes back

If what comes back?

[gborland]

If what comes back?

The future. Like in the movie.

[TAC]

MM was not naïve enough to think he would be in the band forever. He knew MP would be back one day.

Right, but can this be true AND the fact that he was caught by surprise also be true?

[KevShmev]

MM was not naïve enough to think he would be in the band forever. He knew MP would be back one day.

That's easy to say now, but let's not act like it was always a given (it certainly wasn't for pretty much all of the 10s).  Dennis DeYoung was fired from Styx 25 years ago and has never returned.  Same with Steve Perry and Journey.  Roger Waters left Pink Floyd in 1985 and never returned (outside of one performance at Live 8 as a special guest rather than a return as an official member).  It is not a given that members of a classic lineup always return to the band eventually. 

[Stadler]

Right, but can this be true AND the fact that he was caught by surprise also be true?

Yes

[Stadler]

That's easy to say now, but let's not act like it was always a given (it certainly wasn't for pretty much all of the 10s).  Dennis DeYoung was fired from Styx 25 years ago and has never returned.  Same with Steve Perry and Journey.  Roger Waters left Pink Floyd in 1985 and never returned (outside of one performance at Live 8 as a special guest rather than a return as an official member).  It is not a given that members of a classic lineup always return to the band eventually. 

No it's not a given, but for every Steve Perry there are five examples of people who did.  And for the record, I'd say the same thing about Arnel.  I didn't have a will at 35 because I wanted to die, or thought I was going to die, or anything like that, but I knew it was possible.  People don't go into marriages with prenups because they are hoping to divorce. 

[devieira73]

That's easy to say now, but let's not act like it was always a given (it certainly wasn't for pretty much all of the 10s).  Dennis DeYoung was fired from Styx 25 years ago and has never returned.  Same with Steve Perry and Journey.  Roger Waters left Pink Floyd in 1985 and never returned (outside of one performance at Live 8 as a special guest rather than a return as an official member).  It is not a given that members of a classic lineup always return to the band eventually. 

Another classic example was Marillion and Fish. At the end of 90s Marillion was at a really low point in their career and they didn't came back with Fish, which would had made a lot of sense as business. But I believe that they always had a great relatioship with Hogarth and never really reconnected with Fish.

[Stadler]

Fish wouldn't do it, regardless.  He's said that numerous times.  He's also been candid lately that he probably COULDN'T do it physically.  It's never been said publicly, but I have a deep suspicion that, given the way the break went down, and the way they've conducted business since, if there was a US arena tour in the offing and the only way to get it was to reunite with Fish, Marillion would be in northern Scotland banging on a certain croft door, sleeping in tents with signs that said "we won't take no for an answer!", and Hogarth would have to understand.

[Trav]

I honestly don't think Dreamsonic had anything to do with it.

What makes you say that Tim? My thinking is just that Dreamsonic really wasn't a bust, but it wasn't really a success. I'm sure JP knew that the formula had to change in order to get some upward momentum.

[Stadler]

I'm with Tim, and I think it's because I don't think finances played the key role here. I get it, I'm a hypocrite because I have no basis to back this up, yada yada yada, but I'm also a romantic at heart, and I think this ultimately was a quality of life decision for John first, and the band second.  "Given where we are financially and with the state of the music business, what's going to be the most FUN and REWARDING from here on out?"  And I think having Mike P. back in the gang was the more attractive path at that point.

[bosk1]

Yeah, from the things we know, there is pretty much zero reason to assume DreamSonic had anything to do with it.

[TAC]

What makes you say that Tim? My thinking is just that Dreamsonic really wasn't a bust, but it wasn't really a success. I'm sure JP knew that the formula had to change in order to get some upward momentum.

The stars were aligned for MP's return before Dreamsonic, IMO. MP going on tour with JP was the nail in the coffin, so to speak.
Dream Theater had obligations in early 2023. IF they didn't, I feel the change would've been made shortly after Christmas.
At some point in the Spring, I believe the Dreamsonic tour was put together (hastily) and the band were more of less on fumes for it.



Did business have NOTHING to do with it?? Of course not, as I've no doubt MP and JP on the back of a tour bus somewhere didn't imagine some sort of vision where a reunion rejuvenates the fans, etc. and probably started laying the seeds for a 40th Anniversary thingy.


All my opinion of course.

[Stadler]

Tim, I was going to edit my post to say the same thing: it's not that finances had NOTHING to do with it, it just wasn't the finances of one leg of a tour (or one tour, however you count it). 

[Trav]

I guess we're on the same page, maybe it's just the way I worded it. I guess that Dreamsonic is what pushes them to go ahead with it. Cause if they were already set on it way earlier, then why hastily throw together that summer tour? Just announce the reunion and start focusing on that, right?

[Öxölklöfför]

MM was not naïve enough to think he would be in the band forever. He knew MP would be back one day.

His "Thank you for trusting me the second half of your careers in life..." comment after he was asked to join makes me think that he, at least at that point, thought that he was going to be their last drummer.

Maybe he changed his point of view later, and maybe it was only something what he said - But there and then it felt like he meant it.