Author Topic: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?  (Read 17173 times)

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Offline El JoNNo

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Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« on: March 24, 2011, 06:57:43 AM »
I'm obviously talking about the divine whittler himself the big JC. Why is it that those of you that follow Christianity find JC's "sacrifice" admirable or even a sacrifice at all? I have reasons why I dislike the whole concept but I'm in the mood for listening.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2011, 06:59:55 AM »
This is one of the things that have always confused me the most about the religion I follow.

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2011, 07:08:40 AM »
Why does it confuse you? Also, why follow it if it does not make complete sense?

Offline lordxizor

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2011, 07:11:51 AM »
I may be an odd Christian, but I don't think Jesus' death was a sacrifice at all, but it was obviously highly symbolic. Jesus knew what was to come and knew he was not really dying, therefore it wasn't really a sacrifice (other than the pain endured). God was not sacrificing his son because his son was going to go right back to where he was before he sent him to earth.

The symbolism of Jesus taking the sins of man on himself and allowing us to attone for our sins without any physical sacrifice is pretty powerful, IMO.

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2011, 07:15:32 AM »
Why does there need to be physical sacrifice?

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2011, 07:18:17 AM »
Also, why follow it if it does not make complete sense?

Because I don't rely on my faith to give my scientific explanations about things, nor do I understand why others do.

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2011, 07:26:31 AM »
Why does there need to be physical sacrifice?
Here's a very thorough answer to that question. I know we disagree on some fundamental issues, but hopefully that will help explain the theology.
Also, why follow it if it does not make complete sense?

Because I don't rely on my faith to give my scientific explanations about things, nor do I understand why others do.
Great question, terrible answer.
 

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2011, 07:32:18 AM »
Why does faith have to be about things "making complete sense?"

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2011, 07:35:57 AM »
Why does there need to be physical sacrifice?
Because as has been demonstrated time and time again with man, we need something physical and tangible to stimulate our senses and let us know that something is indeed 'real'.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2011, 07:53:23 AM »
Why does there need to be physical sacrifice?
Because as has been demonstrated time and time again with man, we need something physical and tangible to stimulate our senses and let us know that something is indeed 'real'.

Which brings us back to the thread about god revealing himself.  The sacrafice was only physical and tangible for the very few who witnessed it.  All the billions of others do not get anything physical and tangible....yet we are expected to bet our souls on it.  If you feel that man needs the physical and tangible to know that something is real, dont you feel we should be recieving regular visits, or at least one physical/tangible event per person?


I'm obviously talking about the divine whittler himself the big JC. Why is it that those of you that follow Christianity find JC's "sacrifice" admirable or even a sacrifice at all? I have reasons why I dislike the whole concept but I'm in the mood for listening.

Yes, that has always bothered me.  When in church, they would talk about god loving us so much that he sacrificed his only begotten son.  Yet it appears that he just loaned him to us.  Not only that, it seemed very uneccesary as a way to "take away our sins".  God could have easily done that with a snap of his godly fingers.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 08:06:59 AM by eric42434224 »
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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2011, 08:15:44 AM »
Why does there need to be physical sacrifice?
Because as has been demonstrated time and time again with man, we need something physical and tangible to stimulate our senses and let us know that something is indeed 'real'.

Which brings us back to the thread about god revealing himself.  The sacrafice was only physical and tangible for the very few who witnessed it.  All the billions of others do not get anything physical and tangible....yet we are expected to bet our souls on it.  If you feel that man needs the physical and tangible, why dont we get another visit?
Ahh yes…back to that debate which has a pretty clear cut division. You either believe and have faith or you don’t. I don’t think there is an answer that any of us ‘believers’ can supply that will satisfy a non-believers curiosity.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2011, 08:47:29 AM »
Why does there need to be physical sacrifice?
Because as has been demonstrated time and time again with man, we need something physical and tangible to stimulate our senses and let us know that something is indeed 'real'.

Which brings us back to the thread about god revealing himself.  The sacrafice was only physical and tangible for the very few who witnessed it.  All the billions of others do not get anything physical and tangible....yet we are expected to bet our souls on it.  If you feel that man needs the physical and tangible, why dont we get another visit?
Ahh yes…back to that debate which has a pretty clear cut division. You either believe and have faith or you don’t. I don’t think there is an answer that any of us ‘believers’ can supply that will satisfy a non-believers curiosity.

But you said we (mankind) need something physical and tangible to stimulate our senses to let us know that something is indeed "real".  Are you clarifying now that it was meant for non-believers only?
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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2011, 09:10:57 AM »
Why does there need to be physical sacrifice?
Because as has been demonstrated time and time again with man, we need something physical and tangible to stimulate our senses and let us know that something is indeed 'real'.

Which brings us back to the thread about god revealing himself.  The sacrafice was only physical and tangible for the very few who witnessed it.  All the billions of others do not get anything physical and tangible....yet we are expected to bet our souls on it.  If you feel that man needs the physical and tangible, why dont we get another visit?
Ahh yes…back to that debate which has a pretty clear cut division. You either believe and have faith or you don’t. I don’t think there is an answer that any of us ‘believers’ can supply that will satisfy a non-believers curiosity.

But you said we (mankind) need something physical and tangible to stimulate our senses to let us know that something is indeed "real".  Are you clarifying now that it was meant for non-believers only?
The meaning behind me saying mankind ‘needs’ physical proof to believe something wasn’t a qualifying remark that suggests we need ‘evidence’ to believe in religion per say. Nor did I intend to insinuate that Christ’s sacrifice was meant for non-believers only. He absorbed every sin that had been and was to come to provide us ALL an outlet for redemption if we so choose to recognize his noble sacrifice.
  My statement was meant to point out the carnal..worldly nature of man. The ‘instinctive’ nature that comes with just being an animal on this planet. Things tend to make more sense to us and are easier to process when we can satisfy the curiosity and leadership of our senses. When man made the leap separating himself from every other creature once the skin of the ‘fruit of the knowledge of good and evil’ was pierced and tasted…that immediately became the inaugural ‘shot’ fired in the war between flesh and spirit. One is by far easier to please and comprehend than the other.
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Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2011, 09:20:34 AM »
I admire His sacrifice because He did it for me, He stood in the gap between life and death and won life for me. Of course you won't agree with that, but that is my belief.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2011, 09:25:57 AM »
I understand why non-believers don't buy the "sacrifice for atonement" theology.  It doesn't make any sense.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2011, 09:27:55 AM »
Yeah, I don't even see how it was a sacrifice really. If you're divine, giving your life is sorta like handing out your spare change. It would actually be much more of a sacrifice if he was only human.

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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2011, 09:33:09 AM »
Yeah, I don't even see how it was a sacrifice really. If you're divine, giving your life is sorta like handing out your spare change. It would actually be much more of a sacrifice if he was only human.

rumborak


That's what I struggle with. He was born so he could die for us, and just become more awesome than ever? And that's sacrifice? Meanwhile, Judas, who was pretty much necessary for it all to happen, gets to burn forever.

I just could never wrap my head around it, which is as I'm remember now why I had many doubts as a teenager to begin with.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2011, 09:35:47 AM »
Why does there need to be physical sacrifice?

I didn't read the whole article WW posted.  The beginning seemed good, but it just went on and on, and I don't have the time to read the whole thing right now.  I will attempt, to the best of my ability, to give a short answer to what is, IMO, a very deep question.  

The first premise is basically what I saw in the first part of that article:  That God is both 100% good and 100% just.  Whether you buy that or not, that's the premise a Christian approaches this question from.  The article cites a ton of Biblical passages on the subject, so I won't waste time trying to support it.

Second, sin as bad.  Any sin.  It is what separated Adam and Eve from God and got them kicked out of the garden.  It is what separates man from God today.  (Isa 59:2 ("But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear."))  Its inescapable result of all sin is physical and spiritual death.  (Rom 6:23)  The natural question at this point in time for the nonbeliever (and, sometimes, for the believer as well) is probably something along the lines of, "But why?  I don't see what is so objectively bad about at least some 'sins' that the outcome could or should be death.  Why is all sin supposedly so bad to a being who is so powerful that he should just be above it all?"  And that's a hard one to answer, and I don't know that I can give a satisfactory answer.  I just understand that it is.  I liken it to a situation I think most of us can probably relate to.  I think of times when I've done something that for the life of me, I either don't see what's wrong with it, or I just don't see it as really all that bad.  My wife, or my mom, or whoever the person on the other end of the thing, however, is mortally offended and thinks it's just the worst thing ever.  Sometimes, if I want to reconcile with them, I just have to accept that I don't have the same perspective they have and it does me no good to try to justify myself to them because I just I'm not seeing the situation the same way they are.  IMO, this situation isn't all that different.  If I accept that I am much more limited as a human being than a being who created every subatomic particle in the universe and the laws that have them working together the way they do, simply by speaking them into existence, then I can accept that he may look at morality in a way I'm not really capable of understanding in much depth.  So, again, premise #2 is that sin is bad--really bad--even when it is something that looks relatively harmless to me in my limited mortal understanding.

Third, because sin is so bad, the only way to pay for it is by blood.  Again, it is so bad, it requires death.  The sacrifices in the OT are meant to illustrate this graphically.  The sheer number of animals that had to be sacrifices on a routine basis by the Israelites is astounding.  And that practice continued for a LONG time before Jesus.  I've often thought to myself that it's the "Lord of the Rings effect," in a way.  Don't get me wrong--I love the LOTR stories.  But boiled down to their simplest essence, it's a REALLY long story about some guys on a LONG walk.  A lot of novelists have told great stories about incredible questions and had great character development in much shorter works than the LOTR stories.  However, IMO, part of what makes you feel the weight of the journey and the complete transformation of the characters is the sheer length of narrative.  You can't read something that long and not have certain emotions and thoughts impressed upon you.  IMO, it's similar to the Hebrew history, in a way.  It was a long history of having to offer sacrifices to impress upon us that literally TONS of blood was shed over an astounding period of time to temporarily attone for sins.  

That brings us to the conclusion where we are told that to satisfy that price, Jesus had to become physical flesh and blood, live a perfect, sinless life, and become that sacrificial lamb to attone for all sins, past, present, and future, once and for all.  What that means for each individual on this earth is this:  God says He expects X of us as His creation, and the promise is that if we follow the instructions, we are promised a reward.  However, if we sin and fall short of keeping those instructions, there is a penalty to pay that, again, is the ultimate steep penalty, whether we understand why or not.  The only way to have the sentence of death acquitted is by that sacrifice, and that is what makes the sacrifice admirable:  I'm on spiritual death row, and the sentence will be carried out.  I'm a dead man walking, and if someone else chooses to pay that penalty in my place, I literally owe them my life.

Again, I'm not expecting you to buy what I've said.  I think you've made your position clear.  But hopefully, that at least explains it.  Probably not the best explanation, but it's the best I can give at the moment.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2011, 09:42:49 AM »
Yeah, I don't even see how it was a sacrifice really. If you're divine, giving your life is sorta like handing out your spare change. It would actually be much more of a sacrifice if he was only human.

rumborak


That's what I struggle with. He was born so he could die for us, and just become more awesome than ever? And that's sacrifice? Meanwhile, Judas, who was pretty much necessary for it all to happen, gets to burn forever.

I just could never wrap my head around it, which is as I'm remember now why I had many doubts as a teenager to begin with.

My, secular, understanding is that this divinity business was a much later addition. I think early Christians saw him as a chosen leader, but distinctly human, and thus were impressed by him having become a true martyr, one who really gave everything for the cause.

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2011, 11:56:27 AM »
Rumborak has the right Idea. Jesus was still human, meaning he grew up human with a childs mind until he was told/revealed to be the son of god/martyr. Which is a good reason those parts of his life aren't written, he ran away most likely until he knew what he had to do. Maybe he wasn't the son of god, but one who knew how things should be, by taking herbs, shrooms, things he found that hightened his spiritual self to where he can do things.
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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2011, 12:27:39 PM »
Rumborak has the right Idea. Jesus was still human, meaning he grew up human with a childs mind until he was told/revealed to be the son of god/martyr. Which is a good reason those parts of his life aren't written, he ran away most likely until he knew what he had to do. Maybe he wasn't the son of god, but one who knew how things should be, by taking herbs, shrooms, things he found that hightened his spiritual self to where he can do things.
Have you ever read any of the Gospels? If you had you would know that just One of the many things that set Christ apart from 'normal' man was the fact that even as a child his knowledge of Jewish law confounded the most intellectual of Jewish leadership. They marveled at his understanding and wisdom. Jesus was human...a human who NEVER experienced SIN......EVER. The sacrifice he made was absorbing ALL sin for mankind....taking on something he had never felt before, every bit of shame and depravity that accompanies sin, and ingesting it all into his soul and seperating himself from his lifelong divine connection with God, even if only for a few moments...causing him to ask why he had been forsaken.....
  He knew what his divine calling was even as a child. To suggest otherwise highlights your mis-understanding of who Jesus is.. your implied Christ drug use is just silly.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2011, 12:56:02 PM »
A child prodigy who dabbled in shrooms but ended up being an amazing religious prophet seems far more likely in my mind.  I just cant make the jump to son of god.  But I understand the need to believe that if you feel your soul is at stake.
If I truly thought my, or my kids souls were at stake, if I didnt believe pancakes were divine and worship them.....I would be at IHOP every sunday morning.
Well, I already go to IHOP, but I would go to pray to pancakes...not eat them.  But dont you take christs body at communion?  Maybe we could eat silver dollar pancakes for communion.


Mmmmmmm.....pancakes.


To suggest otherwise highlights you have a different understanding of who Jesus is.. your implied Christ drug use is just your opinion.

FTFY
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 01:03:52 PM by eric42434224 »
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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2011, 01:04:36 PM »
Mmmmmmm.....pancakes.
Eric I believe we have found something that you and I can 100% agree upon. Truly one of the greatest culinary creations ever!
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2011, 01:04:59 PM »
Rumborak has the right Idea. Jesus was still human, meaning he grew up human with a childs mind until he was told/revealed to be the son of god/martyr. Which is a good reason those parts of his life aren't written, he ran away most likely until he knew what he had to do. Maybe he wasn't the son of god, but one who knew how things should be, by taking herbs, shrooms, things he found that hightened his spiritual self to where he can do things.
Have you ever read any of the Gospels? If you had you would know that just One of the many things that set Christ apart from 'normal' man was the fact that even as a child his knowledge of Jewish law confounded the most intellectual of Jewish leadership. They marveled at his understanding and wisdom. Jesus was human...a human who NEVER experienced SIN......EVER. The sacrifice he made was absorbing ALL sin for mankind....taking on something he had never felt before, every bit of shame and depravity that accompanies sin, and ingesting it all into his soul and seperating himself from his lifelong divine connection with God, even if only for a few moments...causing him to ask why he had been forsaken.....
  He knew what his divine calling was even as a child. To suggest otherwise highlights your mis-understanding of who Jesus is.. your implied Christ drug use is just silly.

<secular view alert>

I don't think anything is known of Jesus before his ministry. Those pre-ministry stories are so "out there" (Islam claims Jesus spoke when he was 40 days old), I can't give much credence to them.

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2011, 01:23:26 PM »
Rumborak has the right Idea. Jesus was still human, meaning he grew up human with a childs mind until he was told/revealed to be the son of god/martyr. Which is a good reason those parts of his life aren't written, he ran away most likely until he knew what he had to do. Maybe he wasn't the son of god, but one who knew how things should be, by taking herbs, shrooms, things he found that hightened his spiritual self to where he can do things.
Have you ever read any of the Gospels? If you had you would know that just One of the many things that set Christ apart from 'normal' man was the fact that even as a child his knowledge of Jewish law confounded the most intellectual of Jewish leadership. They marveled at his understanding and wisdom. Jesus was human...a human who NEVER experienced SIN......EVER. The sacrifice he made was absorbing ALL sin for mankind....taking on something he had never felt before, every bit of shame and depravity that accompanies sin, and ingesting it all into his soul and seperating himself from his lifelong divine connection with God, even if only for a few moments...causing him to ask why he had been forsaken.....
  He knew what his divine calling was even as a child. To suggest otherwise highlights your mis-understanding of who Jesus is.. your implied Christ drug use is just silly.

<secular view alert>

I don't think anything is known of Jesus before his ministry. Those pre-ministry stories are so "out there" (Islam claims Jesus spoke when he was 40 days old), I can't give much credence to them.

rumborak

    It kind of always ends up back at square one. What you put your faith in. You and several others take a very cerebral, analytical, nothing but fact based look at the world to form your conclusions and opinions. I think El Barto said something to the effect that his (and those like him) brain just cannot make certain assumptions merely based on faith or and disregard the lack of fact based evidence. I don’t see anything “wrong” with that at all. Speaking for myself, the frustrating issue is when non-believers lend the tone of us believers are somehow inferior for subscribing to our faith…that it is somehow juvenile. That is when I get the most frustrated with these debates. “Proof” to conclude either the certain opinion “victor” will never be available. 
     (I think that) most of us agree that there is so much about this world/life/universe etc. that we are completely unaware of and incapable of understanding….which for me makes it perfectly acceptable and rational that supernatural and divine events are not only possible…but for me they in fact have/do and will continue to occur. It’s really useless for me or any other believer to cite an instance where we are certain there was ‘divine intervention’ or ‘God’ revealing himself to us because those of you who see the world in a different manner will most assuredly dismiss those instances with seemingly ‘scientific’ or ‘logical’ reasoning. Neither of which I think is out of God’s capability of employing to fulfill his divine will.
    I just don’t see how ‘the two sides’ will ever come to agree other than a ‘believer’ who leaves the word and God behind or a non-believer who ‘finds’ God and then ‘understands’.   
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Offline sirbradford117

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2011, 01:53:34 PM »
If this point has been made already in this thread, I've missed it...

-Christians believe Christ was fully God and fully man.  2 natures, one person.  Therefore He is completely equal to humans.... truly he was one of us.

-Christians also believe Christ lived a sinless life.  I don't recall the Scripture reference, but I believe it's in Romans.

-The penalty for sin is death (Romans).

-Therefore, Christ died a truly innocent man.  He paid the aforementioned penalty for us so we wouldn't have to endure eternal torment.


Other believers feel free to elaborate on what I've said here... many of you are more schooled that I am.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2011, 02:25:18 PM »
It kind of always ends up back at square one. What you put your faith in.

I think that's fair. What I don't understand from some of you believers is why it has to be an all or nothing affair. That is, you only seem to see two options: Either believe 100% of what's given to you in terms of scriptures, or none at all.
If you look at the history of scriptures, it's pretty obvious that there's been a lot of influence from people of questionable authority. I would think that one can agree that not all stories regarding Jesus' birth are to be taken at face value, and yet still be a faithful Christian.
I mean, are you not concerned at all that you might be believing in something some dude 1,800 years ago decided for you? Wouldn't it be disastrous for your own salvation to doggedly believe in something erroneous?

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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2011, 02:41:10 PM »
the concept of sacrifice is as old as history.  cain and abel offered sacrifices.  religions worldwide and for milleniums came up with the idea of animal sacrifices (and even human sacrifices like baal and moab) to offer as appeasement to their gods.  the Jewish religion practiced animal sacrifices based upon the law.  Christianity draws off of these as shadows of what Christ did.  animal sacrifices could not redeem man's sin because they were not human and they were not perfect.  Jesus was perfect and a human.  hence his sacrifice was better than the animals.

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2011, 03:05:17 PM »
It kind of always ends up back at square one. What you put your faith in.

I think that's fair. What I don't understand from some of you believers is why it has to be an all or nothing affair. That is, you only seem to see two options: Either believe 100% of what's given to you in terms of scriptures, or none at all.
If you look at the history of scriptures, it's pretty obvious that there's been a lot of influence from people of questionable authority. I would think that one can agree that not all stories regarding Jesus' birth are to be taken at face value, and yet still be a faithful Christian.
I mean, are you not concerned at all that you might be believing in something some dude 1,800 years ago decided for you? Wouldn't it be disastrous for your own salvation to doggedly believe in something erroneous?

rumborak

I have been a Christian for 9 years and have been pretty diligent in studying my faith and the Bible. From what I understand at this point in my “Christian” walk is that as I study God’s word and gain more insight as to what a certain scripture means or how I am to interpret parables or Biblical stories and apply them to my life, I strengthen my bond or connection with God which reinforces and fortifies my faith and keeps me in tune to the Holy Spirit and his divine guidance. I believe and feel that union and relationship I share with God does allow me to discern literal from allegorical meaning the Bible has within it.
   That immediately puts any interpretation into a VERY slippery slope because one could begin to justify their what appear to be questionable actions by the way they perceive a Biblical verse. You see this happen all the time. That nut job in Kansas who protests all these funerals honestly ‘believes’ in what he is doing. That is why it is very important for any Christian to trust that their Pastor is “in it for God” and not just in it for his own glory and recognition. It is vital to have great leadership and fellowship to keep Christians grounded and not allow yourself to be pulled off track because man by his own devices is tempted and falls.
     As for me rumborak, being into my faith 100% and believing in Christ, when I say things like ‘the devil is out to separate everyone from God’s presence’ I really believe it. I believe that there is an evil element present on this earth that’s sole goal is to deny any and every spirit he can the grace of God…and he will use all of his craftiness and cunning to do so. I appreciate the significance of science and its advancement…but think this is a huge avenue the devil can use to get people focused just on the ‘facts’ and ‘logic’ of something. I personally believe there is more than the tangible to our lives.
   And it would be disastrous to believe in something and have none of it to be true. The Apostle Paul approached that same thought in 1 Corinthians 15:12-19. You may ‘appreciate’ this scripture.

12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2011, 03:37:25 PM »
Yeah, I don't even see how it was a sacrifice really. If you're divine, giving your life is sorta like handing out your spare change. It would actually be much more of a sacrifice if he was only human.

rumborak


That's what I struggle with. He was born so he could die for us, and just become more awesome than ever? And that's sacrifice? Meanwhile, Judas, who was pretty much necessary for it all to happen, gets to burn forever.

I just could never wrap my head around it, which is as I'm remember now why I had many doubts as a teenager to begin with.

My, secular, understanding is that this divinity business was a much later addition. I think early Christians saw him as a chosen leader, but distinctly human, and thus were impressed by him having become a true martyr, one who really gave everything for the cause.

rumborak

Do you have a source for that? And do you know who thought of him only as a martyr?

Offline reo73

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2011, 03:46:23 PM »
It kind of always ends up back at square one. What you put your faith in.

I think that's fair. What I don't understand from some of you believers is why it has to be an all or nothing affair. That is, you only seem to see two options: Either believe 100% of what's given to you in terms of scriptures, or none at all.
If you look at the history of scriptures, it's pretty obvious that there's been a lot of influence from people of questionable authority. I would think that one can agree that not all stories regarding Jesus' birth are to be taken at face value, and yet still be a faithful Christian.
I mean, are you not concerned at all that you might be believing in something some dude 1,800 years ago decided for you? Wouldn't it be disastrous for your own salvation to doggedly believe in something erroneous?

rumborak


Could you please elaborate on the history of the scriptures for me and who these people of questionable authority might be?  The only person you mentioned was "some dude".

Offline rumborak

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2011, 05:35:07 PM »
My, secular, understanding is that this divinity business was a much later addition. I think early Christians saw him as a chosen leader, but distinctly human, and thus were impressed by him having become a true martyr, one who really gave everything for the cause.

rumborak

Do you have a source for that? And do you know who thought of him only as a martyr?

My "source" is the fact that Judaism doesn't believe in Trinity. The disciples of Jesus were Jews and they saw him as the Messiah. And while the Messiah is many things, he is not God. Because, and Judaism and Islam agree on that, assigning divinity to Jesus is no longer monotheistic. Jesus himself said he does not replace ancient Jewish law, and I'm pretty sure that includes not replacing (or even scratching at) the idea of pure monotheism.

In my humble opinion, if you want to know what Jesus was or wasn't, you have to look at the early church. Not post-resurrection. For example, I find Paul a highly suspect character in his authority towards what Jesus was or wasn't. He never met Jesus, claims to have had a vision, and then completely revamps what Jesus was about, many times overriding Jesus' teachings.

@reo73, another highly suspect character is Constantine, who (for your guys) decided what you should view as canon and what not.

rumborak
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 06:19:50 PM by rumborak »
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline j

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2011, 06:41:43 PM »
@reo73, another highly suspect character is Constantine, who (for your guys) decided what you should view as canon and what not.

Actually if I'm not mistaken, Constantine didn't have much of anything to do with the determination of the canon at the Council of Nicaea.  Although I agree that he is a "suspect character" (for lack of a clearer term) for other reasons.

-J

Offline reo73

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2011, 06:44:27 PM »
My, secular, understanding is that this divinity business was a much later addition. I think early Christians saw him as a chosen leader, but distinctly human, and thus were impressed by him having become a true martyr, one who really gave everything for the cause.

rumborak

Do you have a source for that? And do you know who thought of him only as a martyr?

My "source" is the fact that Judaism doesn't believe in Trinity. The disciples of Jesus were Jews and they saw him as the Messiah. And while the Messiah is many things, he is not God. Because, and Judaism and Islam agree on that, assigning divinity to Jesus is no longer monotheistic. And Jesus himself said he does not replace ancient Jewish law.

In my humble opinion, if you want to know what Jesus was or wasn't, you have to look at the early church. Not post-resurrection. For example, I find Paul a highly suspect character in his authority towards what Jesus was or wasn't. He never met Jesus, claims to have had a vision, and then completely revamps what Jesus was about, many times overriding Jesus' teachings.

@reo73, another highly suspect character is Constantine, who (for your guys) decided what you should view as canon and what not.

rumborak


Let me start by saying your understanding of the Theology of the Trinity is not good.  Yes, Christ's claim to be God could not be tolerated by the Jewish leaders because it did appear to be in conflict with Deity of God.  But Christians do not view the trinity as polytheistic.  God is 3 beings sharing the same essence...3 in 1.  So, yes it is different from a Jewish perspective but from a Christian perspective Christ the son is the same as God the Father.  Also, from a Christian point of view Christ did not conflict ancient Jewish law, he fulfilled it.

As for Paul, yes he had an encounter with God.  But how is this different from many others who did as well.  And I don't know of anywhere in Paul's letters where he overrides Christ's teachings.  He expands on Christ's teachings in his letters but his theology is never anything but right in line with what Christ taught.

As for Constantine, he was influential in determining the Canon only in the sense that he was able to finance the early church being the emperor but the Canon was put together by many church leaders over a period of time and adopted at the Council of Carthage in 397 about 50 years after his death.


Offline rumborak

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Re: Why is vicarious redemption something you admire?
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2011, 07:01:31 PM »
reo73, care to point me to the places in the gospels where Jesus says he is on equal footing to God and the Spirit and part of a Trinity?

rumborak
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."