Dream Theater Album Production

[Groundhog]

I've now listened to the vinyl and my first impression is that it is better than the CD. Not once did I feel the urge to turn down the volume during listening through the whole album like I did when listening to the CD. It was actually just the opposite. The vinyl has fuller sound, especially the mids and the lows are better. Bass has more impact and definition which makes it easier to follow. The mellower parts sounded really lush and instruments more "natural". As a whole the sound is more balanced where as cd sounds a bit disjointed in comparison.

That said I'm not excatly sold on the claimed 13 dB range yet, but the vinyl version has more air around the instruments. Maybe the added dB comes mostly from the better low end.

I couldn't get a decent turntable to do the comparison, but it already sounds better on my old -74 Pioneer turntable than on my CD player. After hearing the vinyl I went to demo Project turntables and boy do they sound better than the old Pioneer. 

[drummerThatShreds87]

Production opinions:

WDADU - lol
I&W - you can clearly hear everything, but it sounds like they recorded in a cave. production sounds very dated/90's
Awake - good, but i hate the synthetic reverb on the drums
FII - very organic production, probably my 2nd favorite
SFAM - sounds bad to me, guitars are weak, bass sounds like there was zero EQ or anything on it. too dry for me
6DOIT - best production EVER, especially Blind Faith.
ToT - nice and heavy, but sounds like a blanket is over my speakers when i listen to it
8VM - pretty good
SC - most overly-produced and overly-compressed album i've heard. everything sounds like rubber and is too loud.
BC&SL - a nice step down from SC's production. more dynamics, but still a bit compressed. however, the ANTR guitar tone is the best i've heard from petrucci, hands down.

[LTE3]

The best production is probably on FII, though Awake has a great atmosphere to it.
Out of the more recent releases, BC&SL has some of the best production, with a lot more breathing room than Octavarium and SC. Raw Dog seems to have continued in that direction, which makes me very optimistic for the production on the next album.
Also, the latest Transatlantic album had fantastic production, so I'm hoping Mike brings that quality to DT's next project.

True the last Transatlantic sounds amazing. I wish Myung would get his bass sounding a little crisper, less muddled. I think SC, and BCSL, sound more layered in their production. Maybe it is Paul Northfields mixing that is annoying. I miss the cleaner production.

[Groundhog]

While the new Transatlantic is very clear and crisp sounding with better dynamics than the norm today, it still suffers from dynamic range compression. Will we ever hear an album where the loudest parts doesn't get suffocated.

[ACID_FOX]

I really cannot understand how people think BC&SL sounds better than SC and OCT.

Really, I can't stand the production.

[TL]

With Octavarium, at least for certain parts, I could see how you'd have an argument. I personally don't understand how someone could think SC sounded better than BC&SL though.

While the new Transatlantic is very clear and crisp sounding with better dynamics than the norm today, it still suffers from dynamic range compression. Will we ever hear an album where the loudest parts doesn't get suffocated.

Honestly, I don't find that there's enough range missing from it to be noticeable. If bands out there want to keep the trend going and keep increasing the preserved range though, I'm all for it.

[Perpetual Change]

While the new Transatlantic is very clear and crisp sounding with better dynamics than the norm today, it still suffers from dynamic range compression. Will we ever hear an album where the loudest parts doesn't get suffocated.

I really could care less. The album sounds amazing. I can't think of one section where the production hinders the product.

I wish Myung would get his bass sounding a little crisper, less muddled. I think SC, and BCSL, sound more layered in their production. Maybe it is Paul Northfields mixing that is annoying. I miss the cleaner production.

Me too. Even live I've noticed his bass basically sounds like a low rumble nowadays. I wonder why?

[Groundhog]

While the new Transatlantic is very clear and crisp sounding with better dynamics than the norm today, it still suffers from dynamic range compression. Will we ever hear an album where the loudest parts doesn't get suffocated.

I really could care less. The album sounds amazing. I can't think of one section where the production hinders the product.

The production on the album itself is amazing, but the lack of dynamic range clearly hinders the product. Only the VERY mellowest parts sound great. The album only sounds "amazing" by modern standards. When compared to stuff that is compressed between 2-6 dbs (that includes DT at 6 db) Whirlwind with 8 db range sounds amazing. But when compared to albums with 13 db range.... no where near amazing. It really could use about 5 db more range. Then it would sound amazing. 8 db just isn't enough range for as dynamic music as Transatlantic, or DT for that matter.

I'm not the only one who shares this opinion: https://progrockreviews.blogspot.com/2010/02/essay-loudness-wars-and-prog.html

Really, I can't be the only one here on the forum who shares this opinion?

[tri.ad]

*raises hand*

I for one enjoy good-sounding albums very much, and there are many remasters that really don't sound good and take away the punch and the liveliness of the sound. Same with most new releases, although there are some exceptions to it - but they are rare.
And I mostly agree with the blog entry you posted.

[Groundhog]

Glad to hear. Yeah, it's a very good blog entry. What are the things that you disagree with it? I don't entirely agree what he says about vinyl. There's definately truth to it, but vinyl is not anymore immune to loudness war. Take SC vinyl for example.

[ariich]

Seriously guys, "more dynamic range" does not automatically equal "better sounding". We have modern production for a reason, and when done right many of us consider it far superior to dated production. The Whirlwind is a great example of this, I literally can't find a flaw in the sound.

If you prefer old-fashioned production fair enough, but it's pretty silly to imply that the bigger the dynamic range, the better the sound.

[Groundhog]

I agree that dynamic range is not everything. It alone won't make an album sound good. Modern production is better that's for sure. If only it would be used in a correct way. That said even the greatest recording/production WILL BE HINDERED by the overuse of dynamic range compression. That's a fact that any engineer, mixer, mastering engineer will agree on. Why bother with great production if your going to compress the hell out of it. That's why it is adamant. I stand by the statement that better dynamics equals better sound (when everything else is in place).

The attitude towards sound is just wrong and stupid. They are making records with the mind set: "We know the sound will be hindered by the loudness. We just have to minimize the damage as much as we can". Whereas they should be thinking: "How will we get this sound as good as possible".

I&W has what many calls outdated production and the triggered snare irritates many. Etc. But that production comes through perfectly because it has dynamics. Imagine if I&W would be compressed from 11db to 6db range. Oh wait, Greatest Hit.... The triggered snare is a minor thing in comparison.

Also check out Simon Philips' Another Lifetime. Sounds great and it is recorded in analog!

[ariich]

Well clearly we disagree, because while the production on I&W is by no means at all bad, it sounds very dated to me. But that comes down to personal preference really, as I said already.

I agree that over-compression is a problem, but we clearly have VERY different opinions on what that term even means. The Whirlwind doesn't sound hugely compressed to me, and BC&SL sounds compressed to a sensible degree. Whereas Death Magnetic is a clear example of over-compression.

I also dislike the use of numbers all the time. I use my ears to determine whether something sounds good.

[Groundhog]

It seems that we agree that overcompression is bad. Just seems that our sensitivity to it is very different. I think that DM is just over the chart. One of the worst offenders. BC&SL is hugely compressed and I'd say Whirlwind is a sensibly compressed.

I only recently started use numbers just to verify what I'm hearing. Not the other way around. They also give a good basis for comparison.

Most of the time what I hear goes with the numbers. Like the new A7X and Haken. Both of which I thought on the first listen that they sound slightly better than most new albums. Haken even more so. And numbers verified that. Haken had better dynamics.

I have one exception for that and it is FII. It doesn't have a great dynamic range, but somehow it manages to sound very good. One of the best sounding DT albums.

I like way I&W sounds, but I can understand it being considered outdated. Production, guitar/bass tones, triggered drums etc are in my opinion very subjective. I gladly take outdated production with smooth, lively and punchy sound than overcompressed harsh and flat sound.

[hefdaddy42]

I&W is dated-sounding, but it is also very, very good-sounding, which is much more important.

[King Postwhore]

Well clearly we disagree, because while the production on I&W is by no means at all bad, it sounds very dated to me. But that comes down to personal preference really, as I said already.

I agree that over-compression is a problem, but we clearly have VERY different opinions on what that term even means. The Whirlwind doesn't sound hugely compressed to me, and BC&SL sounds compressed to a sensible degree. Whereas Death Magnetic is a clear example of over-compression.

I also dislike the use of numbers all the time. I use my ears to determine whether something sounds good.

Very well put ariich!

[Groundhog]

I&W is dated-sounding, but it is also very, very good-sounding, which is much more important.

Exactly!

[Perpetual Change]

Images and Words does sound very good, but there's no way I think it sounds better than The Whirlwind, regardless of dbs.

[TL]

Really, I can't be the only one here on the forum who shares this opinion?

The loudness was has been discussed many times on these boards, and there are a lot of people here who know the importance of preserved dynamic range.
I genuinely don't have any problem with the production of The Whirlwind though.

[Groundhog]

I knew that. I was just frustrated.

Really, I can't be the only one here on the forum who shares this opinion?

The loudness was has been discussed many times on these boards, and there are a lot of people here who know the importance of preserved dynamic range.
I genuinely don't have any problem with the production of The Whirlwind though.

I know, I know... it's been discussed. I was just frustrated. 

While I have my issues with the sound (the loudness only) of Whirlwind, I'm really pleased it was mastered more sensibly. It is after all one of the best sounding modern albums in prog. Could have been a lot worse, but also could have been better. It was a step in the right direction.

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

While the new Transatlantic is very clear and crisp sounding with better dynamics than the norm today, it still suffers from dynamic range compression. Will we ever hear an album where the loudest parts doesn't get suffocated.

I will be honest here and say that The Whirlwind has my favourite production, ever. Especially for the bass guitar. Just amazing.

[Groundhog]

I hear ya, the bass sound is amazing.

[TL]

Agreed. I absolutely love how the bass sounds on The Whirlwind. More bands need to learn the importance of having a good bass guitar in the mix.