Author Topic: Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park  (Read 9958 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline BlobVanDam

  • Future Boy
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 38940
  • Gender: Male
  • Transform and rock out!
Re: Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park
« Reply #70 on: November 12, 2013, 08:52:27 AM »
Pretty sure he's not lip synching.

So he just happens to sing in JLB's voice most of the time? :lol

He is likely singing along to JLB's triggered vocal, with his voice either buried in the mix completely or his mic simply not on at that point.

In some cases he's singing along with parts that there is no chance he could actually sing in terms of range, so I don't believe his vocal was ever intended to be heard live in those spots, and there isn't any point where I hear both JP and the backing track simultaneously. Why would you need or have a JLB backing track if JP is singing live at the same time? If JP's voice was intended to be heard, you wouldn't have a mic off. JP is clearly lip syncing to the vocals in many songs when you watch the DVD.

For me they ideally either-
1. JP sings live, or lip syncs to his own vocal.
2. They use a JLB backing track, and JP just doesn't go near the mic.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12832
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park
« Reply #71 on: November 12, 2013, 08:56:20 AM »
In some cases he's singing along with parts that there is no chance he could actually sing in terms of range...  Why would you need or have a JLB backing track if JP is singing live at the same time?

Because James' voice is the primary harmony and JP's voice is the secondary.  Given that they now only have one backing vocalist onstage (JP only) rather than 2 (JP and MP), it makes sense to have a backing track to make the vocals more full.  Many bands that have multiple talented singers doing backup vocals have those people sing the backup vocals live while still having a backing track to make the backup vocals stronger and more full.

And again, since (1) I have seen them on other shows in the tour where you can hear JP better, and (2) LALP has other examples of things that should be prominent being lost in the mix, I think it is more likely that JP is singing, but his part is buried, rather than assuming that he is lip synching.  Do I know that for a fact?  No.  It's entirely possible he is lip synching.  But there is ample reason to think he isn't.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline theseoafs

  • When the lights go down in the city, and the sun shines on the bayyyyy
  • Posts: 5573
  • Gender: Male
  • Hello! My name is Elder Price
Re: Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park
« Reply #72 on: November 12, 2013, 09:10:04 AM »
In what way is there ample reason to think JP wasn't intending to lip-synch?  I'm not buying this "JP's vocals are buried in the mix" theory.  The keys are hard to hear on LALP, but they're not impossible to hear.  JP's vocals are flat-out inaudible on the songs in question, if they're there at all.

Offline BlobVanDam

  • Future Boy
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 38940
  • Gender: Male
  • Transform and rock out!
Re: Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park
« Reply #73 on: November 12, 2013, 09:12:21 AM »
In some cases he's singing along with parts that there is no chance he could actually sing in terms of range...  Why would you need or have a JLB backing track if JP is singing live at the same time?

Because James' voice is the primary harmony and JP's voice is the secondary.  Given that they now only have one backing vocalist onstage (JP only) rather than 2 (JP and MP), it makes sense to have a backing track to make the vocals more full.  Many bands that have multiple talented singers doing backup vocals have those people sing the backup vocals live while still having a backing track to make the backup vocals stronger and more full.

And again, since (1) I have seen them on other shows in the tour where you can hear JP better, and (2) LALP has other examples of things that should be prominent being lost in the mix, I think it is more likely that JP is singing, but his part is buried, rather than assuming that he is lip synching.  Do I know that for a fact?  No.  It's entirely possible he is lip synching.  But there is ample reason to think he isn't.

He's only singing parts that are already covered by the backing track, and as I said, he's even lip syncing to parts he isn't capable of singing with his range (I love his vocals, but he's not JLB!).
His voice isn't even buried in the mix, it's not there at all that I can hear (and I can hear all of the keyboard parts that people think don't exist).
If he was singing, they could have not used the backing track on the DVD, and either added some vocal production to make JP's voice sound fuller and nicer, or redone his part in the studio. The times when it is his voice, the vocals sound plenty full, and very nice indeed.

Other bands that do this don't double the backing track in my experience. They lip sync to it. The whole point is to have a perfect backup vocal for the harmonies (because pitch is more vital when you've got two or three voices harmonizing), so having the live vocal mixed with it would usually defeat the purpose in that case.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 42068
  • Gender: Male
Re: Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park
« Reply #74 on: November 12, 2013, 09:14:11 AM »
In what way is there ample reason to think JP wasn't intending to lip-synch?  I'm not buying this "JP's vocals are buried in the mix" theory.  The keys are hard to hear on LALP, but they're not impossible to hear.  JP's vocals are flat-out inaudible on the songs in question, if they're there at all.

I don't mean JP's vocals are buried in the mix in the same way the keys are at times.  I mean that JP's vocals are not meant to really be heard by anyone, meaning the live audience or those of us watching the DVD or Blu-ray.  To use the Rush comparison again, Alex Lifeson's mic is always on, so when he is at the mic, he really is singing, but their mixing guy has the setting to where his vocals are barely heard.  Think of it as the volume setting on his mic is set at 1, while the triggered backing vocal is at 10, so while his voice is in there somewhere, it is not really meant to be heard.  I suspect the same thing is going with Petrucci. 

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12832
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park
« Reply #75 on: November 12, 2013, 09:23:05 AM »
He's only singing parts that are already covered by the backing track, and as I said, he's even lip syncing to parts he isn't capable of singing with his range (I love his vocals, but he's not JLB!).

Just because someone with a mid-baritone range is singing along to a part where a high tenor is the lead, for example, doesn't mean the mid-baritone singer is somehow trying to look like he is faking the hard part.  He isn't.  He's singing a lower harmony that makes the higher lead part sound better, even if the lower harmony is so far in the background that most don't consciously notice it.

If he was singing, they could have not used the backing track on the DVD, and either added some vocal production to make JP's voice sound fuller and nicer, or redone his part in the studio. The times when it is his voice, the vocals sound plenty full, and very nice indeed.

That's bad reasoning.  The only time you can really hear him is when he is using a different mic (on the "accoustic" mini-set).  The fact that you can hear him on those songs just means that mic was hotter or louder than JP's other mic.

Other bands that do this don't double the backing track in my experience. They lip sync to it. The whole point is to have a perfect backup vocal for the harmonies (because pitch is more vital when you've got two or three voices harmonizing), so having the live vocal mixed with it would usually defeat the purpose in that case.

What are you talking about?  Of course they do.  YouTube any Queensryche video from their recent tour, for example, and you will hear a Todd LaTorre backing track on the backup vocals, with Ed and Parker also singing their own backup parts live. 


EDIT:  And Kev is basically saying the same thing.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 09:28:19 AM by bosk1 »
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline BlobVanDam

  • Future Boy
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 38940
  • Gender: Male
  • Transform and rock out!
Re: Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park
« Reply #76 on: November 12, 2013, 09:26:58 AM »
In what way is there ample reason to think JP wasn't intending to lip-synch?  I'm not buying this "JP's vocals are buried in the mix" theory.  The keys are hard to hear on LALP, but they're not impossible to hear.  JP's vocals are flat-out inaudible on the songs in question, if they're there at all.

I don't mean JP's vocals are buried in the mix in the same way the keys are at times.  I mean that JP's vocals are not meant to really be heard by anyone, meaning the live audience or those of us watching the DVD or Blu-ray.  To use the Rush comparison again, Alex Lifeson's mic is always on, so when he is at the mic, he really is singing, but their mixing guy has the setting to where his vocals are barely heard.  Think of it as the volume setting on his mic is set at 1, while the triggered backing vocal is at 10, so while his voice is in there somewhere, it is not really meant to be heard.  I suspect the same thing is going with Petrucci. 

If your vocals are not meant to be really heard, and you're singing along to another vocal, that's effectively lip syncing.

I hope this doesn't sound like some witch hunt, because it feels like people are poorly defending against a gut reaction to the term lip sync, as if it's a bad thing. I think using the additional backing vocals on this tour has been a smart decision, as demonstrated by how great LALP is. Most bands with harmonies do it these days, and it frees them up to put more focus on their main instrument.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12832
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park
« Reply #77 on: November 12, 2013, 09:31:11 AM »
I hope this doesn't sound like some witch hunt

Well, actually it really does because you are, in effect, just saying "I think he must be lip synching because I can't hear him, and I am not going to acknowledge anything to the contrary."  When people hand you sound arguments for an opposing view, and you simply reject them out of hand without acknolwedging that you might be mistaken, yeah, that kind of sounds like a witch hunt mentality.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline TheAtliator

  • Sixdegrematichaos onachristmasmorning
  • Posts: 1587
  • Gender: Male
Re: Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park
« Reply #78 on: November 12, 2013, 09:38:46 AM »
I'll come in here and say that I pretty much know for sure that John was singing along with a JLB track and the track was generally louder than his voice. I can hear the tone of both his voice and James', and I can see that most of the time, his is not recorded because it sounds slightly different from night to night and you can actually hear his part backs off when he backs away from the mic. (I've seen a million YouTube videos, and 3 ADTOE shows, 2 of which were two nights in a row). I think some of the tracks might also be JP recordings that he is singing along to live, but that part I'm not sure about because they're really quiet and they could very well be JLBs voice too.

Also, on TSM and BTS, (and many more songs toward the beginning of the tour) his vocals were entirely real and live. As the tour went on they started to use more tracks.

Offline sfam2112

  • "Oops!" Insurance Salesman
  • Posts: 609
  • Gender: Male
Re: Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park
« Reply #79 on: November 12, 2013, 09:49:11 AM »
To me, it sounds like JLB redid some of the backing vocals (namely WIMH and TDEN) because when I saw the Richmond and DC shows on the 2012 tour, I recall both of those sounding way more like JP than they do here.

With certain other songs, it was definitely James' voice (ADToE material, TTTSTA) in the back-up vocals.
My music:
https://soundcloud.com/tommybrittmusic

"I love to rock. I love to rock hard. I love hard rockin'! I LIKE TO ROCK!! I LOVE TO ROCK!!!!" - Colin Mochrie

Offline BlobVanDam

  • Future Boy
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 38940
  • Gender: Male
  • Transform and rock out!
Re: Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park
« Reply #80 on: November 12, 2013, 09:51:23 AM »
I hope this doesn't sound like some witch hunt

Well, actually it really does because you are, in effect, just saying "I think he must be lip synching because I can't hear him, and I am not going to acknowledge anything to the contrary."  When people hand you sound arguments for an opposing view, and you simply reject them out of hand without acknolwedging that you might be mistaken, yeah, that kind of sounds like a witch hunt mentality.

But the counter arguments are just describing what I consider lip syncing anyway. :lol

But just to be clear-

Dear DT,
You're doing great, and LALP is awesome. Make sure that in future that if JP is at a mic, we can hear him so we don't have to argue this again. This is not a witch hunt. :lol Happy, bosky?


I'll come in here and say that I pretty much know for sure that John was singing along with a JLB track and the track was generally louder than his voice. I can hear the tone of both his voice and James', and I can see that most of the time, his is not recorded because it sounds slightly different from night to night and you can actually hear his part backs off when he backs away from the mic. (I've seen a million YouTube videos, and 3 ADTOE shows, 2 of which were two nights in a row). I think some of the tracks might also be JP recordings that he is singing along to live, but that part I'm not sure about because they're really quiet and they could very well be JLBs voice too.

Also, on TSM and BTS, (and many more songs toward the beginning of the tour) his vocals were entirely real and live. As the tour went on they started to use more tracks.

If that's the case, it's a shame that we can't hear him on LALP, especially on PMU when there is no backing track to cover it up at all.
One of my favourite moments of the show is when I can hear him, in The Silent Man. I don't even care whether they're live vocals or not, it's a JP vocal, and JP just has a pleasant voice to contrast with JLB in those moments.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline theseoafs

  • When the lights go down in the city, and the sun shines on the bayyyyy
  • Posts: 5573
  • Gender: Male
  • Hello! My name is Elder Price
Re: Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park
« Reply #81 on: November 12, 2013, 10:14:49 AM »
He's only singing parts that are already covered by the backing track, and as I said, he's even lip syncing to parts he isn't capable of singing with his range (I love his vocals, but he's not JLB!).

Just because someone with a mid-baritone range is singing along to a part where a high tenor is the lead, for example, doesn't mean the mid-baritone singer is somehow trying to look like he is faking the hard part.  He isn't.  He's singing a lower harmony that makes the higher lead part sound better, even if the lower harmony is so far in the background that most don't consciously notice it.

Sure, but it isn't so far in the background that most don't consciously notice it.  It's completely inaudible.  So inaudible that we're having an argument about whether it even exists.

Here's an example.  One of the JP sing-along moments that really stuck out to me was the chorus of War Inside My Head, where he goes up to the mic to sing along to the "saying things never said" line (which is, of course, itself a JLB recording).  There are three options here:

1) JP is singing an awesome harmony to JLB's recording of the backing vocal.  This is unlikely, given that 1) the awesome harmony is 100% inaudible in the recording and 2) that line has never been performed with a harmony, so it's unlikely that one had been added for this show.  DT tends to remove harmonies when they do their live performances, not add them.
2) JP is doubling up the melody to JLB's recording of the backing vocal.  This is also unlikely, given that 1) again, JP's vocals are completely inaudible if they're there at all, and 2) DT tends not to do that in their performances either.  In the past, JP and MP tended only to sing if there was a harmony for them to sing (e.g. I Walk Beside You, Through Her Eyes) or if there was a second melody line (e.g. Constant Motion, The Dark Eternal Night).  It was never important to JP to double up on JLB's melody lines in the past, though it stands to reason that if that were important to him, he would, you know, make it so that you can hear his vocals.  So that leaves us with option 3:
3) JP is singing or mouthing along to JLB's vocal track, trying to make it seem as if the backing track is coming out of his mouth.  This isn't protocol for DT but maybe JP thought that would be better for the "concert experience" of the live release?

Basically, you can choose to believe that JP is singing an awesome melody/harmony that is impossible to hear for some dubious reason, but what evidence is there for that?  The lip-synching solution is much simpler.

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12832
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park
« Reply #82 on: November 12, 2013, 10:28:51 AM »
Yes, those are three options.  And there are others.  Such as:
(4)  JP is singing a not-so-awesome-but-still-passable backing track, and even though they haven't harmonized that part in the past (well, actually, they have, but let's just ignore that so that your argument isn't completely shot down), they decided to do it on this tour because with MP being gone and not being able to do that part, it just seemed like a better way to go.  But unlike other shows on the tour, you can't hear his mic because:  (a) his part is buried very low in the mix (which is credible because it is exactly what has happened with some instrumental parts on this exact same show, and is something that routinely happens in a live setting), or (b) his part is completely inaudible and somehow didn't get picked up because of some unspecified technical difficulties (which also is credible because it is exactly what has happened with some instrumental parts on this exact same show, and is something that routinely happens in a live setting), or (c) his part is completely inaudible because that mic failed (happens all the time), or (d) something none of us have thought of.  But, again, given other examples from earlier in the tour and examples of things being low or missing at this same show, the most likely explanation for the JP backing vocals is that they also fell into that very same category.  That's not the only explanation, but it is the one that is the most consistent with everything else we know.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline theseoafs

  • When the lights go down in the city, and the sun shines on the bayyyyy
  • Posts: 5573
  • Gender: Male
  • Hello! My name is Elder Price
Re: Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park
« Reply #83 on: November 12, 2013, 10:48:24 AM »
even though they haven't harmonized that part in the past (well, actually, they have, but let's just ignore that so that your argument isn't completely shot down)

When's that?  I haven't heard a single live recording of this song where that line was harmonized. 

As far as technical difficulties making JP's vocals inaudible -- sure, it happens.  The thing is that JP's "lip-synching" happens throughout the entire show.  If no sound was being picked up by the mic, one of the band members (probably JP himself) or one of the sound guys probably would have noticed and rectified the issue sometime, especially considering that the show was being recorded.  Or maybe there was a technical issue after the fact.  I'm resistant to the idea that JP's vocals were so buried in the mix that you literally can't even hear them, which doesn't make much sense, but any of the technical issues mentioned are possible.  The question is whether you're willing to believe that JP sang a great deal throughout the entire show -- and all in unison with the JLB backing tracks -- without any of it making it onto the DVD.  If you ask me, I don't think any of the explanations offered are quite likely enough to explain what just looks like regular lip-synching to me.

Of course, I'm not JP, so what do I know.

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12832
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park
« Reply #84 on: November 12, 2013, 10:50:36 AM »
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline theseoafs

  • When the lights go down in the city, and the sun shines on the bayyyyy
  • Posts: 5573
  • Gender: Male
  • Hello! My name is Elder Price
Re: Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park
« Reply #85 on: November 12, 2013, 10:52:10 AM »
Whoops, did I say that out loud?  Looks like the cat's out of the bag.

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 42068
  • Gender: Male
Re: Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park
« Reply #86 on: November 12, 2013, 11:00:40 AM »
I caught Jordan Rudess singing during one of the songs, too.  How dare that guy lip synch during the concert, and not even into a microphone?!?!?! :biggrin:

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12832
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park
« Reply #87 on: November 12, 2013, 11:05:27 AM »
Him and Steve Harris are guilty of that.  I bet their instruments aren't even really plugged in either.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 30882
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park
« Reply #88 on: November 12, 2013, 02:51:19 PM »
Plenty of bands are guilty of doing that, so I'm not sure why it's so inconceivable that it's happening here.

I always agreed that it's silly when bands do that. The highlight is always when Lifeson goes up to the mike and belts out SUBDIVISIONS in that booming, Satanic sounding voice. I've been annoyed with Ed Jackson doing the same thing.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 30882
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park
« Reply #89 on: November 13, 2013, 05:22:25 PM »
I think you'll be pleasantly surprised, Bart. Mike Leonard seems very familiar with the music, and JP commented how great the edits were on the Google+ interview.
It'll be another day or two before I can watch the whole thing, but I did check out BitS and the dude does seem to have done some nice work with it. It wasn't perfect, but it was still better than you'd get with a lot of (if not most) concert DVDs. Hell, compared to Steve Harris, this guy is Francis Ford Coppola. I still stand by my original opinion that their previous director would have done better with it, but I've got no problem with the people that handled this as they did a very good job.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline TheGreatPretender

  • The Second Dancing Turtle
  • Posts: 6981
  • Gender: Male
  • You are reading these words.
Re: Outcry multi angle on Live at Luna Park
« Reply #90 on: November 14, 2013, 12:42:54 AM »
It'll be another day or two before I can watch the whole thing, but I did check out BitS and the dude does seem to have done some nice work with it. It wasn't perfect, but it was still better than you'd get with a lot of (if not most) concert DVDs. Hell, compared to Steve Harris, this guy is Francis Ford Coppola. I still stand by my original opinion that their previous director would have done better with it, but I've got no problem with the people that handled this as they did a very good job.

NUGGETTTZZZZ!!!!
"How's that for a slice of fried gold?"