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General => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: Samsara on February 21, 2023, 12:25:03 PM
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When I heard it was Tony Iommi's birthday, it got me thinking about the proverbial Mt. Rushmore of hard rock/heavy metal guitarists, and who would be on mine. I gave myself the following criteria:
1. The guitarist must have been innovative with the instrument...lauded for the way they played it, and changed the game in some fashion.
2. The guitarist must have crossed over to mainstream appreciation. Meaning, it can't be a guy no one has heard of who is great...the person must be someone who achieved worldwide acclaim for the songs they wrote.
>>>>Based on that criteria, I could only come up with three:
Jimi Hendrix
Tony Iommi
Eddie Van Halen
Again, totally subjective. I mean, I know the guitarists on here would cite Jeff Beck. But for me, I just don't think the Yardbirds and his solo work really go the worldwide acclaim criteria I set forth. Maybe that's wrong, but that's how I view it. I couldn't tell you one song he wrote that I remember off the top of my head. Although I realize how influential he was.
I think what struck me, was that I was able to choose one guy from the 60s, two guys from the 70s, but yet I sit here and I really don't know if I could pick out a guy from the 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s, or 20s. Not that meet both criteria. I thought about Satriani, Vai, Dimebag, a ton of guys. But...should they be on that Rushmore with Hendrix, Iommi, and EVH? Not in my mind.
So anyway, thoughts on who is on your guitarist mt. rushmore, and why? Any thoughts on guys/gals from the 80s until now that should merit consideration? (Don't say Petrucci - love him, but no).
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It’s hard for me to judge mainstream appreciation probably, but has Tony Iommi ever been recognized in the mainstream? I doubt many non hard rock/metal fans could name him. Heck, I only know him as the guy from Black Sabbath. Couldn’t tell you anything else about his playing, personality, or influence.
I’d guess guys like Angus Young, Slash, or Joe Perry might be more recognized by the broader public. Maybe Richie Blackmore just because of Smoke On The Water.
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Richie Blackmore? James Hetfield?
I would have Dimebag up there. Along with Hetfield, they completely changed how rhythm guitar was played in heavy genres to this day.
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When I heard it was Tony Iommi's birthday, it got me thinking about the proverbial Mt. Rushmore of hard rock/heavy metal guitarists, and who would be on mine. I gave myself the following criteria:
1. The guitarist must have been innovative with the instrument...lauded for the way they played it, and changed the game in some fashion.
2. The guitarist must have crossed over to mainstream appreciation. Meaning, it can't be a guy no one has heard of who is great...the person must be someone who achieved worldwide acclaim for the songs they wrote.
>>>>Based on that criteria, I could only come up with three:
Jimi Hendrix
Tony Iommi
Eddie Van Halen
Again, totally subjective. I mean, I know the guitarists on here would cite Jeff Beck. But for me, I just don't think the Yardbirds and his solo work really go the worldwide acclaim criteria I set forth. Maybe that's wrong, but that's how I view it. I couldn't tell you one song he wrote that I remember off the top of my head. Although I realize how influential he was.
I think what struck me, was that I was able to choose one guy from the 60s, two guys from the 70s, but yet I sit here and I really don't know if I could pick out a guy from the 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s, or 20s. Not that meet both criteria. I thought about Satriani, Vai, Dimebag, a ton of guys. But...should they be on that Rushmore with Hendrix, Iommi, and EVH? Not in my mind.
So anyway, thoughts on who is on your guitarist mt. rushmore, and why? Any thoughts on guys/gals from the 80s until now that should merit consideration? (Don't say Petrucci - love him, but no).
I was going to say Satriani or Yngwie, but I guess they don't quite fit your criteria. Guthrie Govan is the best guitarist I've ever seen but he's certainly not "mainsteem". Maybe Ritchie Blackmore or Jimmy Page?
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^ Oh yeah, Jimmy Page for sure.
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I’d guess guys like Angus Young, Slash, or Joe Perry might be more recognized by the broader public. Maybe Richie Blackmore just because of Smoke On The Water.
You're right, but none of them were what I would call "innovative" with the instrument.
Samasara, I like your list. I would probably go with Hendrix, Van Halen, and Page.
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How about Randy Rhodes? Too short of a career?
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Rhoads is just an evolution of EVH for the most part.
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Rhoads is just an evolution of EVH for the most part.
I agree.
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I’d guess guys like Angus Young, Slash, or Joe Perry might be more recognized by the broader public. Maybe Richie Blackmore just because of Smoke On The Water.
You're right, but none of them were what I would call "innovative" with the instrument.
Samasara, I like your list. I would probably go with Hendrix, Van Halen, and Page.
True. I guess it’s hard to find guys who were both innovative and widely known outside of their circles.
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I guess it’s hard to find guys who were both innovative and widely known outside of their circles.
I'd also add influential though. For example, Tom Morello was innovative and widely known, but his lead and effects style didn't really catch on.
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Rhoads is just an evolution of EVH for the most part.
True. I'd probably go Hendrix, EVH and Page then for Mt Rushmore. They're not my favorites (Govan, Petrucci & Lifeson), but probably the most innovative/influential of all time.
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I think Blackmore probably needs to be up there for being the pioneer of neoclassical rock guitar. I'd probably consider RR more a disciple of Blacmore than EVH.
Also, I personally wouldn't put Hendrix in the hard rock/metal category. If you're going to do that then you screw SRV out of the discussion.
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I’d guess guys like Angus Young, Slash, or Joe Perry might be more recognized by the broader public. Maybe Richie Blackmore just because of Smoke On The Water.
You're right, but none of them were what I would call "innovative" with the instrument.
Samasara, I like your list. I would probably go with Hendrix, Van Halen, and Page.
True. I guess it’s hard to find guys who were both innovative and widely known outside of their circles.
How about The Edge. Not a great technical player by any means but I would say his playing on albums like Achtung Baby is pretty innovative and distinctive.
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Great feedback and choices by everyone. Like we all know, so, so subjective. I thought about Perry and Slash...both derivative. GREAT, but derivative.
And I think...there's a difference between distinct and innovative. I mean, we all can name a ton of guys because of their signature, distinct sound. But that doesn't, at least for me, make them innovative.
I thought about Page a lot. Also thought about Blackmore a lot. I think both fall just shy of the three I mentioned for me. I also thought about The Edge. Same thing...not really innovative to my ear. Distinctive, not innovative.
Hef - push on Page here. Because I really thought about it. But if I leave Beck off, why would I put Page on? Just because the songs he wrote were more identifiable? What did he do, innovation-wise, that puts him on that pedestal with Iommi, Hendrix, and EVH? And I am a huge fan, just want to hear your expanded thought on Page in that context.
El B - not sure how putting Hendrix on screws SRV. SRV is amazing for sure. I mean, make the case for SRV. Why would he be on there? I mean, I'm an SRV fan, and while I think he's very distinctive, I didn't really feel he was innovative. Took blues guitar to a whole broader palette, but at the end of the day, he wasn't a game changer, in my view, like Hendrix was with the instrument.
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Here's a crazy thought. I'm not necessarily a FAN of his, but what about Tom Morello? Rage Against the Machine and Audioslave. His style of playing is distinct, took the guitar sound to a different place, blended genres, etc. I am not sure he'd make my Mt. Rushmore, but...
As for James Hetfield, yeah, he crossed my mind. But to be honest, I don't really think his style of playing is much different than his influences. He just played faster. Great rhythm player, and at least to me, great songwriter in the 80s, but...not quite the game-changer to be put on Mt. Rushmore.
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This is a hard one for me.
Hendrix and Van Halen are no-brainers.
I think Jimmy Page needs to be there. I think he's at a different level than Beck. Beck is a guitarist's guitarist, but outside of a couple Yardbirds songs (that Beck may or may not have played on), I don't think I could name a single Jeff Beck song.
The "mainstream appreciation" thing leaves Iommi on the sideline, and that criterion is tough for any hard rock/metal guitarist to surpass.
Slash and Angus Young are probably the closest as far as mainstream appreciation, but I don't think either of them has been even remotely innovative.
Hetfield? Maybe, but I suspect the average person knows "the singer from Metallica who also plays guitar" rather than "James Hetfield." Blackmore might be the closest in terms of both criteria.
Of course, if you expand it beyond hard rock/metal, there are probably plenty of viable candidates.
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P - yep, see, I had to put the metal/hard rock qualifier in. Otherwise, it gets crazy. lol.
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I would have Dimebag up there. Along with Hetfield, they completely changed how rhythm guitar was played in heavy genres to this day.
Yeah, but Dimebag never crossed into the mainstream, which was one of the requirements of the OP.
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I would have Dimebag up there. Along with Hetfield, they completely changed how rhythm guitar was played in heavy genres to this day.
Yeah, but Dimebag never crossed into the mainstream, which was one of the requirements of the OP.
It's weird with Dime. I went back and forth on him. To the metal world, he was "mainstream" for sure. But the general public wouldn't know who he was or the band he played for. Everyone knew Van Halen, Hendrix, and Black Sabbath.
It's a very subjective topic with objective parameters which make things really difficult. I get it. Trust me, I'm a huge fan of Dime. I have a framed art print of him shredding over the door of my den at home. But given the parameters I set, he didn't quite get there.
Another one was Brian May. Certainly crossed over, certainly is distinct. But did he innovate in such a way that changed the game? To me, no, not really. Which bumps him, too. Crazy.
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I would have Dimebag up there. Along with Hetfield, they completely changed how rhythm guitar was played in heavy genres to this day.
Yeah, but Dimebag never crossed into the mainstream, which was one of the requirements of the OP.
It's weird with Dime. I went back and forth on him. To the metal world, he was "mainstream" for sure. But the general public wouldn't know who he was or the band he played for. Everyone knew Van Halen, Hendrix, and Black Sabbath.
Yeah, if you wanted to put him on one's Metal Mount Rushmore, fine, but he definitely cannot be included with how the OP is worded.
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I’d say May was very innovative. But like Tom Morello, it’s just kind of them doing that style. There isn’t an army or generation of players that sound like either of them.
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I actually think Robert Fripp is a great candidate for this. Schizoid Man was kind of a foundational heavy metal tune, he has had a broad influence on multiple genres (metal, prog, pop, ambient), and he crossed over into the mainstream to an extent playing with Bowie, Peter Gabriel, Brian Eno, Daryl Hall, Blondie, etc. I don’t think a ton of people outside of the rock world know him, but I think at times in the past he’s had an impact on more than just the hard rock/metal/prog worlds.
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First ones to come to mind
EVH
Jimmy page
Stevie ray Vaughn
Jimmy hendrix
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I think if you asked some of the guitarists listed here, they would say Chuck Berry played a role in how they approached their instrument.
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I think Blackmore probably needs to be up there for being the pioneer of neoclassical rock guitar. I'd probably consider RR more a disciple of Blacmore than EVH.
Yeah, maybe. But by the 80s guitarists were being influenced by Yngwie about as much as Blackmore. And by the 90s the neoclassical sound went almost entirely underground to Euro metal and maybe some US prog metal and such.
Also, I personally wouldn't put Hendrix in the hard rock/metal category. If you're going to do that then you screw SRV out of the discussion.
Hendrix was closer to hard rock than SRV though, and much more frequently cited by players for his more over the top soloing, feedback, whammy usage and such. SRV was just turbo-charged Albert King.
How about The Edge. Not a great technical player by any means but I would say his playing on albums like Achtung Baby is pretty innovative and distinctive.
Not even close to hard rock outside of an isolated track or two though, and Gilmour, Fripp, Summers, Lifeson, Echo & The Bunnymen and others were doing similar things at the same time or earlier, he just made it even more accessible.
Here's a crazy thought. I'm not necessarily a FAN of his, but what about Tom Morello? Rage Against the Machine and Audioslave. His style of playing is distinct, took the guitar sound to a different place, blended genres, etc. I am not sure he'd make my Mt. Rushmore, but...
Already mentioned him, but his normal riffs are just rehashed 70s rock riffs, and his weirder DJ-style effects that actually were unique never really caught fire among other guitarists.
As for James Hetfield, yeah, he crossed my mind. But to be honest, I don't really think his style of playing is much different than his influences. He just played faster. Great rhythm player, and at least to me, great songwriter in the 80s, but...not quite the game-changer to be put on Mt. Rushmore.
He really made the high-gain, palm-muted, chugging, downpicked, heavy-handed attack, single note, and pedal tone riffing style like no one else before him. Heavy riffs started becoming dramatically different after him.
I would have Dimebag up there. Along with Hetfield, they completely changed how rhythm guitar was played in heavy genres to this day.
Yeah, but Dimebag never crossed into the mainstream, which was one of the requirements of the OP.
I guess it depends upon how you define "mainstream". Maybe not quite as much as some of the others, but they still sold over 20 million records, and you can still hear "Walk" in particular in public places on occasion. Heck, my mother, who knows practically nothing about heavier music, had heard of him. But sure, weaker on that criteria than some of the others.
I think if you asked some of the guitarists listed here, they would say Chuck Berry played a role in how they approached their instrument.
Yeah, but also, not even close to hard rock.
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A shame Gary Moore never crossed into the mainstream.
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Great feedback and choices by everyone. Like we all know, so, so subjective. I thought about Perry and Slash...both derivative. GREAT, but derivative.
And I think...there's a difference between distinct and innovative. I mean, we all can name a ton of guys because of their signature, distinct sound. But that doesn't, at least for me, make them innovative.
I thought about Page a lot. Also thought about Blackmore a lot. I think both fall just shy of the three I mentioned for me. I also thought about The Edge. Same thing...not really innovative to my ear. Distinctive, not innovative.
Hef - push on Page here. Because I really thought about it. But if I leave Beck off, why would I put Page on? Just because the songs he wrote were more identifiable? What did he do, innovation-wise, that puts him on that pedestal with Iommi, Hendrix, and EVH? And I am a huge fan, just want to hear your expanded thought on Page in that context.
El B - not sure how putting Hendrix on screws SRV. SRV is amazing for sure. I mean, make the case for SRV. Why would he be on there? I mean, I'm an SRV fan, and while I think he's very distinctive, I didn't really feel he was innovative. Took blues guitar to a whole broader palette, but at the end of the day, he wasn't a game changer, in my view, like Hendrix was with the instrument.
Page; what he did with the SOUND of Led Zeppelin is as innovative as anything he did with the intrument (though he also incorporated a Celtic sound into the more traditional blues that came out of England in the mid-60's. None of those other guys - Wood, Richards, Beck, Clapton, Blackmore - had that angle. But back to the SOUND. That was almost all him.
My Mt. Rushmore:
- Van Halen
- Hendrix
- Blackmore
- Page
Rhoads is the next on the list.
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2. The guitarist must have crossed over to mainstream appreciation. Meaning, it can't be a guy no one has heard of who is great...the person must be someone who achieved worldwide acclaim for the songs they wrote.
Does anybody who isn't a metal / rock fan even knows who Tony Iommi is? Ozzy Osbourne is the only recognizable name for people outside our world.
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Ok, going to throw an odd one out, and he doesn't qualify on the notoriety level, but for innovation he can be credited to having the first heavily distorted guitar chords which led to pretty much all of heavy metal. In fact I'd consider it the first song that led to metal....Dave Davies of the Kinks and You Really Got Me, 1964 I think.
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I like Stadler’s list but I would substitute Hetfield for Hendrix for reasons already mentioned.
My PERSONAL metal Mt Rushmore would be:
JP
Het
Tipton
Michael Romeo
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I actually think Robert Fripp is a great candidate for this. Schizoid Man was kind of a foundational heavy metal tune, he has had a broad influence on multiple genres (metal, prog, pop, ambient), and he crossed over into the mainstream to an extent playing with Bowie, Peter Gabriel, Brian Eno, Daryl Hall, Blondie, etc. I don’t think a ton of people outside of the rock world know him, but I think at times in the past he’s had an impact on more than just the hard rock/metal/prog worlds.
You won't get any argument from me. I think he's the second (behind Collins) biggest RnRHoF snub so far. He fucking created an entire genre. That Rolling Stone hates that genre, notwithstanding, but I'm surprised he hasn't gotten more love given his affiliation with RS darling Peter Gabriel.
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I like Stadler’s list but I would substitute Hetfield for Hendrix for reasons already mentioned.
My PERSONAL metal Mt Rushmore would be:
JP
Het
Tipton
Michael Romeo
Tipton would be close to my first picked for my personal rushmore too.
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I think we have a difficult tension if this is half a metal list and we're also looking for "mainstream" breakthrough. In that sense, there's very little to choose from, because not much actual metal has ever become truly household music. If Iommi and Dimebag aren't well-known enough, then it's really only a hard rock list.
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2. The guitarist must have crossed over to mainstream appreciation. Meaning, it can't be a guy no one has heard of who is great...the person must be someone who achieved worldwide acclaim for the songs they wrote.
Does anybody who isn't a metal / rock fan even knows who Tony Iommi is? Ozzy Osbourne is the only recognizable name for people outside our world.
Thing is, while the conditions are there, the title of the thread is Rushmore of 'hard rock/metal' guitarists. This in itself limits the mainstream criteria of the thread also IMO.
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I think we have a difficult tension in that if this is half a metal list and we're also looking for "mainstream" breakthrough. In that sense, there's very little to choose from, because not much actual metal that has ever become truly household music. If Iommi and Dimebag aren't well-known enough, then it's really only a hard rock list.
Pretty much my exact thinking of what I posted. You just articulated it better.
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A shame Gary Moore never crossed into the mainstream.
He did - even in Australia - but only around the time of Still Got The Blues . I love Gary as a player but he is also more an evolution of other players than an innovator.
I'd be happy enough with
Hendrix
EVH
Iommi
Page
I've never been a huge Led Zeppelin fan , so years ago I wouldn't have included Page but having formally studied him a bit I would allow him into the "innovative" category. Malmsteen would be close in some respects......totally changed the game in the guitarhead world but was arguably just an evolution of Blackmore/Rhoads and was never really mainstream.
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2. The guitarist must have crossed over to mainstream appreciation. Meaning, it can't be a guy no one has heard of who is great...the person must be someone who achieved worldwide acclaim for the songs they wrote.
Does anybody who isn't a metal / rock fan even knows who Tony Iommi is? Ozzy Osbourne is the only recognizable name for people outside our world.
Perhaps not. But they know who Black Sabbath is, and that sound of Black Sabbath, and that doomy riff style. And all that is Iommi. Like I said, subjective, but for me, it works.
I think we have a difficult tension if this is half a metal list and we're also looking for "mainstream" breakthrough. In that sense, there's very little to choose from, because not much actual metal has ever become truly household music. If Iommi and Dimebag aren't well-known enough, then it's really only a hard rock list.
Fair point, but again, hard rock and metal was not as clearly defined back in the 70s and 80s as they are now (overly so, IMO, but that's a thread for a different day).
The tension though (aka "difficult choice") is the whole point. Metal/Hard Rock really is interchangeable to my ears...up until thrash metal. Then I think it really separates. But all of that, and this entire Rushmore thing is so incredibly subjective.
What I do like is that most (not all) really give it to EVH and Hendrix. The debate is on the other two. And that's great, healthy back and forth. I hear the arguments about Page for sure. And he is probably my own personal frontrunner for 4th, given the criteria I established for myself. But I'm still not sold. But I'm 100 percent on EVH, Hendrix and Iommi.
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A shame Gary Moore never crossed into the mainstream.
He did - even in Australia - but only around the time of Still Got The Blues . I love Gary as a player but he is also more an evolution of other players than an innovator.
I'd be happy enough with
Hendrix
EVH
Iommi
Page
I've never been a huge Led Zeppelin fan , so years ago I wouldn't have included Page but having formally studied him a bit I would allow him into the "innovative" category. Malmsteen would be close in some respects......totally changed the game in the guitarhead world but was arguably just an evolution of Blackmore/Rhoads and was never really mainstream.
Yeah, I thought it would only be that album that would have given him any exposure. it's funny, first time I saw him was on one of the foxtel music channels back in the day. Music Max or whatever and they played a live version of SGTB. I still remember watching him play that outro solo for the first time. It was well into my guitar playing years but I remember the exact moment where I thought, 'holy shit, who the fuck is this guy!?' Incredible.
I hate Page but I think that top 4 there is probably acceptable.
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Fair point, but again, hard rock and metal was not as clearly defined back in the 70s and 80s as they are now (overly so, IMO, but that's a thread for a different day).
The tension though (aka "difficult choice") is the whole point. Metal/Hard Rock really is interchangeable to my ears...up until thrash metal. Then I think it really separates. But all of that, and this entire Rushmore thing is so incredibly subjective.
Yeah, in the 70s KISS, Alice Cooper, AC/DC, Ted Nugent, Aerosmith, all kinds of stuff was being called "metal", and occasionally will still get called that way by some people. I think you start to get some separation on Black Sabbath's Master of Reality and Priest's Sin After Sin, but things don't really start taking off until the 80s. But even then it's tricky because if you bring in thrash, then it's blending into a different direction, into hardcore punk rather than hard rock.
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really just too difficult..
Hendrix
Page
EVH
Blackmore
Malmsteen
Really hard to leave out Tipton, Iommi, Randy, Gary Moore, ...
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If you want hard rock AND metal the list is going to get a little weird. You could conceivably have Page and Dimebag on the same Mt even though their styles were extremely different.
Hard Rock and Metal are so big that each could have its own.
Hard Rock should be Jimi, EVH, probably Jeff Beck given how wide his influence was (even though I am not a particularly big fan) and maybe Blackmore although he could be swapped. You probably could throw in Slash. Was he a great innovator? No. But his influence and classic solos reached more than most. The list is too hard because there are so many from different time periods. Steve Vai should probably be on the list. He was in Whitesnake, which was mainstream so that should count. Vai's influence on guitarists cannot be understated. In the last decade especially, we are just starting to see how lasting his influence was, as more young guitarists in their 20s incorporate his style and licks into their own.
Metal is also very complicated. The great innovator Tommy Iommi needs to be there, but after him who knows. I guess you need to throw in someone from Metallica, which is the likely the most well known and influential metal act of all time, even though I don't think either of their guitarists is particularly worthy on an individual basis. I'll say something controversial: John Petrucci should be on the Mt. The guy helped invent an entire genre and influenced a generation of guitar players. He is leaps and bounds above 99% of metal guitarists and therefore should be on it. Pull Me Under was a hit.
In the end the only two certainties are Hendrix and EVH. There is a pretty long tail afterwards depending on how into guitar you are. But at the end of the day there is no doubt those two are the GOATs who transcend time (see what I did there?!) and preference.
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I propose Kurt Cobain. I feel that he meets the criteria in spades. Known, loved and emulated by millions. I don't feel it can be argued that we was quite the game changer.
My monument includes Van Halen, Hendrix, Page and Cobain
Others I considered are Townshend and Frusciante. Though how can you have Mt. RUSHmore without Lifeson? :P
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How was Cobain innovative with the instrument?
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Cobain is a really weird one. On one hand, it's hard to deny that he almost single-handedly shifted the music landscape for awhile, and is still quite well-regarded by many decades later. Maybe it's hard to say because I'm not really a Nirvana fan, but it's challenging to articulate exactly what he did that was so different than what the punk bands did over a decade prior, other than more angular songwriting. It was basically a repeat of the shift in the late 70s.
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Yea. I’d say Cobaine was innovative with song writing. Not really guitar playing.
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Fair point, but again, hard rock and metal was not as clearly defined back in the 70s and 80s as they are now (overly so, IMO, but that's a thread for a different day).
The tension though (aka "difficult choice") is the whole point. Metal/Hard Rock really is interchangeable to my ears...up until thrash metal. Then I think it really separates. But all of that, and this entire Rushmore thing is so incredibly subjective.
Yeah, in the 70s KISS, Alice Cooper, AC/DC, Ted Nugent, Aerosmith, all kinds of stuff was being called "metal", and occasionally will still get called that way by some people. I think you start to get some separation on Black Sabbath's Master of Reality and Priest's Sin After Sin, but things don't really start taking off until the 80s. But even then it's tricky because if you bring in thrash, then it's blending into a different direction, into hardcore punk rather than hard rock.
In the end these things are bound to evolution and of limits being stretched. See it like sunset, when the sun goes down you can call it "dark". But then the night approaches and is even "darker", so what was arguabily "not-day", is certainly not as dark as the pitch black night.
Also, what's a "tall" building? the Great Pyramid was the tallest building for millennia. Then some gothic churches were. Then some skyscrapers were. Are gothic churches no longer tall? no, they are, but we have skyscrapers now that are taller than anything else.
Same with hard rock / metal. It was an evolution, it's hard to determine the exact moment something became "metal" just like it's hard to determine the precise moment when the day is no longer day, but night (that's what twilight is for, the passage between the two times of the day).
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I propose Kurt Cobain. I feel that he meets the criteria in spades. Known, loved and emulated by millions. I don't feel it can be argued that we was quite the game changer.
My monument includes Van Halen, Hendrix, Page and Cobain
Others I considered are Townshend and Frusciante. Though how can you have Mt. RUSHmore without Lifeson? :P
Reading through all of this, Cobain was my first thought as well, especially given the criteria laid out in the OP.
Look, I've spent most of my guitar-playing years attempting to cram as many notes into a measure as possible—I long worshiped at the alter of JP and Co., so I fully get the instinctive scrunch-face that occurs whenever Cobain's name appears in a guitar-centric conversation.
That all said, I also have about two decades of teaching experience, and during that time, I have watched the guitar go the way of boxing. For those unfamiliar with the analogy, there was a time when professional boxing reigned supreme, and the NFL and NBA were fledgling outliers on the sports landscape. Obviously, boxing still exists, but it is the veritable definition of niche at this point, especially in the U.S.
The same can be said for guitar. Fortunately, there are still 13-year olds out there falling in love with guitar rock, but they are few and far between.
After all of these years, I remain amazed by the staying power of Nirvana's brief musical output. The future of guitar/rock/music in general isn't people my age, it's 13-year-olds, and to this day, Nirvana remains a near unanimous starting point for so many of this kids.
Maybe twice in all of my years of teaching, a kid has come in and asked me, "have you ever heard of Dream Theater?"
Nirvana, on the other hand, is still an ever-present mainstay in my teaching repertoire.
While this final point is necessarily part of the OP, I personally feel that the ability to inspire others would factor heavily into my Mt. Rushmore. For that reason, Cobain would probably be up there.
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Hendrix, absolutely.
EVH, absolutely.
As "homer" as it may sound, I'm very inclined to include Petrucci.
Not for DT specifically, but just look at the JPMM.
JP owns an entire generation (at least) of rock/metal player, and his guitar is THE prestige instrument of the day.
That should count for a lot.
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How was Cobain innovative with the instrument?
I personally feel his 'less-is-more' approach to everything—chords, tone, leads, etc.—was his innovation. He basically ushered in a second D.I.Y/Punk-adjacent wave where guitar became something that 'anyone' with the patience to learn a few chords can play.
My post above explains it better, but I think his lasting inspiration plays into this as well.
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Since we are apparently throwing anyone and everyone into the mix here :lol, I will throw Buck Dharma of Blue Oyster Cult into the mix.
Fantastic guitarist, great songwriter (he wrote Don't Fear the Reaper, which has held up as being one of the classic hard rock tunes of the 70s), and you could argue his eerie/creepy guitar lines were his innovation. Hell, if we can give Cobain props for playing simple chords and calling "less is more" his innovation, then I will argue that Dharma's style was innovative as heck.
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Yea. I’d say Cobaine was innovative with song writing. Not really guitar playing.
Not really the song writing either. He was simply a guy with perfect timing and manner.
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Since we are apparently throwing anyone and everyone into the mix here :lol, I will throw Buck Dharma of Blue Oyster Cult into the mix.
Fantastic guitarist, great songwriter (he wrote Don't Fear the Reaper, which has held up as being one of the classic hard rock tunes of the 70s), and you could argue his eerie/creepy guitar lines were his innovation. Hell, if we can give Cobain props for playing simple chords and calling "less is more" his innovation, then I will argue that Dharma's style was innovative as heck.
Not sure if this is a dig at me, but lists are inherently subjective and the conversation they inspire is going to be diverse on a board like this. Take a passive-aggressive jab at my post all you want, but I stand by my reasoning.
Also, why not just quote me, rather than summarizing my words?
The narrow-mindedness of this place sometimes never ceases to amaze me :-\
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Since we are apparently throwing anyone and everyone into the mix here :lol, I will throw Buck Dharma of Blue Oyster Cult into the mix.
Fantastic guitarist, great songwriter (he wrote Don't Fear the Reaper, which has held up as being one of the classic hard rock tunes of the 70s), and you could argue his eerie/creepy guitar lines were his innovation. Hell, if we can give Cobain props for playing simple chords and calling "less is more" his innovation, then I will argue that Dharma's style was innovative as heck.
Not sure if this is a dig at me, but lists are inherently subjective and the conversation they inspire is going to be diverse on a board like this. Take a passive-aggressive jab at my post all you want, but I stand by my reasoning.
The narrow-mindedness of this place sometimes never ceases to amaze me :-\
No, no, not a dig at all, merely saying that if something as minor as "less is more" is considered innovative, especially since he was hardly the first to do it, then I can argue that certain other things most would consider not majorly innovative are in fact innovative.
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How was Cobain innovative with the instrument?
I personally feel his 'less-is-more' approach to everything—chords, tone, leads, etc.—was his innovation. He basically ushered in a second D.I.Y/Punk-adjacent wave where guitar became something that 'anyone' with the patience to learn a few chords can play.
That's the thing though, I'm not quite sure what he did in terms of the idea of simplifying things that the 70s punk bands hadn't already done, he just used different gear.
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Since we are apparently throwing anyone and everyone into the mix here :lol, I will throw Buck Dharma of Blue Oyster Cult into the mix.
Fantastic guitarist, great songwriter (he wrote Don't Fear the Reaper, which has held up as being one of the classic hard rock tunes of the 70s), and you could argue his eerie/creepy guitar lines were his innovation. Hell, if we can give Cobain props for playing simple chords and calling "less is more" his innovation, then I will argue that Dharma's style was innovative as heck.
Not sure if this is a dig at me, but lists are inherently subjective and the conversation they inspire is going to be diverse on a board like this. Take a passive-aggressive jab at my post all you want, but I stand by my reasoning.
The narrow-mindedness of this place sometimes never ceases to amaze me :-\
No, no, not a dig at all, merely saying that if something as minor as "less is more" is considered innovative, especially since he was hardly the first to do it, then I can argue that certain other things most would consider not majorly innovative are in fact innovative.
Fair enough.
I've been living on about 3 hours of sleep for the past few weeks on account of a teething-baby, so I'm probably viewing everything I read a little sideways right now.
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How was Cobain innovative with the instrument?
I personally feel his 'less-is-more' approach to everything—chords, tone, leads, etc.—was his innovation. He basically ushered in a second D.I.Y/Punk-adjacent wave where guitar became something that 'anyone' with the patience to learn a few chords can play.
That's the thing though, I'm not quite sure what he did in terms of the idea of simplifying things that the 70s punk bands hadn't already done, he just used different gear.
Agree whole-heartedly.
I was merely speaking the lasting impression he made on future generations from the perspective of a guitar teacher.
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Reading through all of this, Cobain was my first thought as well, especially given the criteria laid out in the OP.
Look, I've spent most of my guitar-playing years attempting to cram as many notes into a measure as possible—I long worshiped at the alter of JP and Co., so I fully get the instinctive scrunch-face that occurs whenever Cobain's name appears in a guitar-centric conversation.
That all said, I also have about two decades of teaching experience, and during that time, I have watched the guitar go the way of boxing. For those unfamiliar with the analogy, there was a time when professional boxing reigned supreme, and the NFL and NBA were fledgling outliers on the sports landscape. Obviously, boxing still exists, but it is the veritable definition of niche at this point, especially in the U.S.
The same can be said for guitar. Fortunately, there are still 13-year olds out there falling in love with guitar rock, but they are few and far between.
After all of these years, I remain amazed by the staying power of Nirvana's brief musical output. The future of guitar/rock/music in general isn't people my age, it's 13-year-olds, and to this day, Nirvana remains a near unanimous starting point for so many of this kids.
Maybe twice in all of my years of teaching, a kid has come in and asked me, "have you ever heard of Dream Theater?"
Nirvana, on the other hand, is still an ever-present mainstay in my teaching repertoire.
While this final point is necessarily part of the OP, I personally feel that the ability to inspire others would factor heavily into my Mt. Rushmore. For that reason, Cobain would probably be up there.
I can't really argue with any of this. I am always fascinated with Cobain's place in these kinds of discussions. He certainly struck a nerve.
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Why Cobain?
Why not - wait for it - Taylor Swift?
She's hardly a player, and I don't like her songs. But if we're talking straight-up influence, and the ability to inspire millions to pick up the instrument? Just check out the citation:
https://www.rollingstone.com/pro/news/fender-study-finds-half-of-new-guitarists-are-women-738025/
We are not here without Taylor. Not even close.
Of course she's disqualified by the fact it's a Hard Rock/Metal Rushmore.
If you branch out to everyone, there's great non-rock players past and present who may need to be included as well.
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Why Cobain?
Why not - wait for it - Taylor Swift?
She's hardly a player, and I don't like her songs. But if we're talking straight-up influence, and the ability to inspire millions to pick up the instrument? Just check out the citation:
https://www.rollingstone.com/pro/news/fender-study-finds-half-of-new-guitarists-are-women-738025/
We are not here without Taylor. Not even close.
Kev Shmev in 3. 2. 1..
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Why Cobain?
Why not - wait for it - Taylor Swift?
She's hardly a player, and I don't like her songs. But if we're talking straight-up influence, and the ability to inspire millions to pick up the instrument? Just check out the citation:
https://www.rollingstone.com/pro/news/fender-study-finds-half-of-new-guitarists-are-women-738025/
We are not here without Taylor. Not even close.
Of course she's disqualified by the fact it's a Hard Rock/Metal Rushmore.
If you branch out to everyone, there's great non-rock players past and present who may need to be included as well.
Check back in 20 years and she just might be on there ;)
Fact of the matter is, 20 years from now, names from the '70s (like Jeff Beck and Jimmy Page — trust me, it pains me to type this) are going to be no different than names from the '50s like Johnny Ace and Etta James.
Our children are going to be in their 30's and 40's, raising kids of their own, and Taylor Swift's going to be playing stadiums. It's just the way of things.
I, for one, am happy that she actually plays an instrument...look at the charts and find me another top-tier pop star that knows how to tune a guitar (or banjo) that isn't a straight-up country singer.
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Why Cobain?
Why not - wait for it - Taylor Swift?
She's hardly a player, and I don't like her songs. But if we're talking straight-up influence, and the ability to inspire millions to pick up the instrument? Just check out the citation:
https://www.rollingstone.com/pro/news/fender-study-finds-half-of-new-guitarists-are-women-738025/
We are not here without Taylor. Not even close.
Hardly new either, I'm sure Elvis inspired many to pick up a guitar, not realizing for him it was more of a prop and James Burton did the dirty work.
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Why Cobain?
Why not - wait for it - Taylor Swift?
She's hardly a player, and I don't like her songs. But if we're talking straight-up influence, and the ability to inspire millions to pick up the instrument? Just check out the citation:
https://www.rollingstone.com/pro/news/fender-study-finds-half-of-new-guitarists-are-women-738025/
We are not here without Taylor. Not even close.
Hardly new either, I'm sure Elvis inspired many to pick up a guitar, not realizing for him it was more of a prop and James Burton did the dirty work.
Right you are!
Look, my all-time favorite artist is Miles Davis, and I can count on one hand how many students have said they've heard of him. Kinda breaks my heart.
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I think we have a difficult tension if this is half a metal list and we're also looking for "mainstream" breakthrough. In that sense, there's very little to choose from, because not much actual metal has ever become truly household music. If Iommi and Dimebag aren't well-known enough, then it's really only a hard rock list.
I'm not sure any of mine qualify as "heavy metal", even Blackmore.
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Cobain is a really weird one. On one hand, it's hard to deny that he almost single-handedly shifted the music landscape for awhile, and is still quite well-regarded by many decades later. Maybe it's hard to say because I'm not really a Nirvana fan, but it's challenging to articulate exactly what he did that was so different than what the punk bands did over a decade prior, other than more angular songwriting. It was basically a repeat of the shift in the late 70s.
HE shifted the landscape - I say grudgingly, since I think he is dramatically overrated; he's the paradigm of the guy that had he lived, he'd be one of many, not singular - but his guitar playing didn't, unless you include all those people that said "wow, he sucks, I can do that!" and went and bought a guitar. If you dig into Cobain's influences, he's not NEARLY as innovative as Rolling Stone magazine would have you believe.
His talent? Writing catchy pop tunes, and being a lovable dick.
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Fair enough.
I've been living on about 3 hours of sleep for the past few weeks on account of a teething-baby, so I'm probably viewing everything I read a little sideways right now.
No worries! I admittedly was trying to get out a post or two before I had to drive to work, so I might have been a bit more direct and/or short than I intended. Apologies if that came off badly.
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Cobain is a really weird one. On one hand, it's hard to deny that he almost single-handedly shifted the music landscape for awhile, and is still quite well-regarded by many decades later. Maybe it's hard to say because I'm not really a Nirvana fan, but it's challenging to articulate exactly what he did that was so different than what the punk bands did over a decade prior, other than more angular songwriting. It was basically a repeat of the shift in the late 70s.
HE shifted the landscape - I say grudgingly, since I think he is dramatically overrated; he's the paradigm of the guy that had he lived, he'd be one of many, not singular - but his guitar playing didn't, unless you include all those people that said "wow, he sucks, I can do that!" and went and bought a guitar. If you dig into Cobain's influences, he's not NEARLY as innovative as Rolling Stone magazine would have you believe.
His talent? Writing catchy pop tunes, and being a lovable dick.
Yeah, I don't really understand it myself, but I've heard it from enough different people that I believe it. I used to be pretty anti-Cobain a long time ago, but so many musicians I respect give him props that I've stopped trying to pass judgement.
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I think if Cobain applies to Hard Rock/Metal, so does Elvis, and many others. If we're talking about Rock in the general sense, including alt rock, etc., then surely Cobain applies.
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Why Cobain?
Why not - wait for it - Taylor Swift?
She's hardly a player, and I don't like her songs. But if we're talking straight-up influence, and the ability to inspire millions to pick up the instrument? Just check out the citation:
https://www.rollingstone.com/pro/news/fender-study-finds-half-of-new-guitarists-are-women-738025/
We are not here without Taylor. Not even close.
Kev Shmev in 3. 2. 1..
Jokes aside, it's a good point. Just like Cobain inspired many to pick up an electric guitar, Swift inspired many to pick up an acoustic guitar. Neither is notable for their guitar playing in any real way, but their songs inspired many to pick up a guitar and play them.
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Since we are apparently throwing anyone and everyone into the mix here :lol, I will throw Buck Dharma of Blue Oyster Cult into the mix.
Fantastic guitarist, great songwriter (he wrote Don't Fear the Reaper, which has held up as being one of the classic hard rock tunes of the 70s), and you could argue his eerie/creepy guitar lines were his innovation. Hell, if we can give Cobain props for playing simple chords and calling "less is more" his innovation, then I will argue that Dharma's style was innovative as heck.
Not sure if this is a dig at me, but lists are inherently subjective and the conversation they inspire is going to be diverse on a board like this. Take a passive-aggressive jab at my post all you want, but I stand by my reasoning.
The narrow-mindedness of this place sometimes never ceases to amaze me :-\
No, no, not a dig at all, merely saying that if something as minor as "less is more" is considered innovative, especially since he was hardly the first to do it, then I can argue that certain other things most would consider not majorly innovative are in fact innovative.
So, since we're on the "less is more" kick, the King of that is Andy Summers (probably an influence on Cobain as well). With respect, since it's all opinion, but none of these guys belong on a Guitar Player Mt. Rushmore, IMO.
For me, and this is EVH and Hendrix in spades, is that "rush" component. You watch them and you get a rush of adrenaline. Dare I say (and I'm sorry to be crude here) but the kind of playing that makes young girls need a change of clothes. I'm not sure that's some dude in a tie playing jazz chords. There's an emotion to this stuff that transcends the music, transcends the genre, transcends the demographic. EVH had it. When someone like Michael Jackson - about as mainstream as it gets - needed someone to "play rockstar" on his hit single, who did he turn to? Not Steve Lukather, who is arguably one of the best technical guitarists on the planet, not Andy Summers, no one but... Eddie.
Page had it. I'm not removing Blackmore, because he's my favorite musician of all time (and a lot of those guys that came out of England in the '60s say he - and Beck - were the real players), but honestly, I'm not even sure HE had it.
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To the OP's point, it's kinda sad (to me, at least) that none of us have come up with a name that isn't decades old.
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To the OP's point, it's kinda sad (to me, at least) that none of us have come up with a name that isn't decades old.
Well, rock/metal has been declining in the mainstream for decades now. The biggest "new" player is probably someone like Tim Henson from Polyphia.
I think if Cobain applies to Hard Rock/Metal, so does Elvis, and many others. If we're talking about Rock in the general sense, including alt rock, etc., then surely Cobain applies.
Well, he's way closer to it than Elvis. That might his other main talent, he managed to bring in influences from hard rock, metal, and punk together in a way that built a fanbase out of sections of each of those styles.
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To the OP's point, it's kinda sad (to me, at least) that none of us have come up with a name that isn't decades old.
Well, I think it takes time to get to Mt. Rushmore. There are current guys I like - Dave Navarro is one (he's top five favorite player for me), Slash is another, Warren Haynes a third - but so many of them grew up on what we're talking about. I think even Slash would say Ed belongs there first.
I'm also not sure I've heard anything that has taken my breath away like that first Van Halen record. I don't think you can understate how much a game-changer that was when it first came out. I can only imagine that Hendrix was the same way (McCartney has said it was). For the record, I only got into Hendrix in the last ten years or so, and I got his first three records in an eBay auction, and when I listened to the deeper tracks, every song was like "wow, that's Steve Vai!", "wow, that's Uli Roth!", "wow, that's SRV!", "wow, that's Judas Priest!" I don't think I've ever heard so many blatant stylistic references off of such a finite group of songs.
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To the OP's point, it's kinda sad (to me, at least) that none of us have come up with a name that isn't decades old.
Well, I think it takes time to get to Mt. Rushmore. There are current guys I like - Dave Navarro is one (he's top five favorite player for me), Slash is another, Warren Haynes a third
"Current" guys, who are in their 50s and 60s and started releasing music in the 80s. :p
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To the OP's point, it's kinda sad (to me, at least) that none of us have come up with a name that isn't decades old.
Well, I think it takes time to get to Mt. Rushmore. There are current guys I like - Dave Navarro is one (he's top five favorite player for me), Slash is another, Warren Haynes a third
"Current" guys, who are in their 50s and 60s and started releasing music in the 80s. :p
My point exactly ;D
I was more looking for that 22-year-old who, as Stadler said, makes you want to change your clothes when your playing cards with your sister (wait? What????) :rollin
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Yeah, it's crazy, even the "new" wave of players I like such as Plini, Sithu Aye, David Maxim Micic, Jakub Zytecki, Nili Brosh and others are mostly in their 30s now. The hottest ones are probably on Tik Tok, which I don't pay attention to.
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Yea, I think for very "new" players, the only name that pops up is Tim Henson.
Not a huge fan and I find his style extremely repetitive, but he is very innovative and his influence is just starting to spread considerably.
But it'll take a long time to break into mainstream and become a legend. It was easier in the 70's and 80's when record labels were gatekeepers, but now literally anyone with a camera can become an internet sensation. The crowd to rise above is HUGE compared to what it was back in the day. Who knows how many people would've challenged Eddie for his claim to fame if they had been as lucky in their break.
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Interesting thread idea, and this could go multiple ways if the goal would be ‘influential’ or ‘successful’. If we had to name players who shaped guitar based music (I know that’s not necessarily hard rock / heavy metal), how about these four?
- Charlie Christian
- Les Paul
- Eddie van Halen
- Steve Vai
Going with a hard time rock / metal approach, swap out the first two with Hendrix and Clapton.
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Reading through all of this, Cobain was my first thought as well, especially given the criteria laid out in the OP.
Look, I've spent most of my guitar-playing years attempting to cram as many notes into a measure as possible—I long worshiped at the alter of JP and Co., so I fully get the instinctive scrunch-face that occurs whenever Cobain's name appears in a guitar-centric conversation.
That all said, I also have about two decades of teaching experience, and during that time, I have watched the guitar go the way of boxing. For those unfamiliar with the analogy, there was a time when professional boxing reigned supreme, and the NFL and NBA were fledgling outliers on the sports landscape. Obviously, boxing still exists, but it is the veritable definition of niche at this point, especially in the U.S.
The same can be said for guitar. Fortunately, there are still 13-year olds out there falling in love with guitar rock, but they are few and far between.
After all of these years, I remain amazed by the staying power of Nirvana's brief musical output. The future of guitar/rock/music in general isn't people my age, it's 13-year-olds, and to this day, Nirvana remains a near unanimous starting point for so many of this kids.
Maybe twice in all of my years of teaching, a kid has come in and asked me, "have you ever heard of Dream Theater?"
Nirvana, on the other hand, is still an ever-present mainstay in my teaching repertoire.
While this final point is necessarily part of the OP, I personally feel that the ability to inspire others would factor heavily into my Mt. Rushmore. For that reason, Cobain would probably be up there.
I can't really argue with any of this. I am always fascinated with Cobain's place in these kinds of discussions. He certainly struck a nerve.
Huge Kurt fan here Met him even Kurt really broke barriers and used the guitar like a weapon, not sure about him being on this list but he was just amazing in all ways
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Reading through all of this, Cobain was my first thought as well, especially given the criteria laid out in the OP.
Look, I've spent most of my guitar-playing years attempting to cram as many notes into a measure as possible—I long worshiped at the alter of JP and Co., so I fully get the instinctive scrunch-face that occurs whenever Cobain's name appears in a guitar-centric conversation.
That all said, I also have about two decades of teaching experience, and during that time, I have watched the guitar go the way of boxing. For those unfamiliar with the analogy, there was a time when professional boxing reigned supreme, and the NFL and NBA were fledgling outliers on the sports landscape. Obviously, boxing still exists, but it is the veritable definition of niche at this point, especially in the U.S.
The same can be said for guitar. Fortunately, there are still 13-year olds out there falling in love with guitar rock, but they are few and far between.
After all of these years, I remain amazed by the staying power of Nirvana's brief musical output. The future of guitar/rock/music in general isn't people my age, it's 13-year-olds, and to this day, Nirvana remains a near unanimous starting point for so many of this kids.
Maybe twice in all of my years of teaching, a kid has come in and asked me, "have you ever heard of Dream Theater?"
Nirvana, on the other hand, is still an ever-present mainstay in my teaching repertoire.
While this final point is necessarily part of the OP, I personally feel that the ability to inspire others would factor heavily into my Mt. Rushmore. For that reason, Cobain would probably be up there.
I can't really argue with any of this. I am always fascinated with Cobain's place in these kinds of discussions. He certainly struck a nerve.
Huge Kurt fan here Met him even Kurt really broke barriers and used the guitar like a weapon, not sure about him being on this list but he was just amazing in all ways
You kind of look a little like him, as well. :)
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Well...this has been a busy thread since yesterday afternoon. I didn't read everything, but a couple thoughts.
The only time "metal" really became mainstream was roughly 1982-93 or so. However, the bands that were the most mainstream featured guitarists who weren't terribly innovative - e.g., Motley Crue, Def Leppard, etc.
For me, personally, I'd say the list is Lifeson, Matheos, Petrucci and DeGarmo (if we went beyond hard rock/metal, I'd probably swap out DeGarmo for Howe).
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re: Cobain
Interesting thought. I did think of him. But I quickly went against that. For me, he wasn't really innovative. The "less is more" approach didn't start with Cobain, honestly. He was just the poster child for the era. I thought Cobain, particularly years after his passing, really was starting to get interesting with the song "You Know You're Right." I would have loved to have seen where he went after that. But strictly as a guitar player, I'm not sure he works for me.
Overall, I'm happy to see the consensus (more or less) on EVH and Hendrix. For me, Iommi has to be there. His sound and style approach to the guitar basically invented heavy metal as we know it. Still, that fourth alludes me. Really good suggestions by all. I just don't think any of them really work for me, personally.
Whoever said that rock/metal is in decline has a point too...it's harder to pinpoint when the style of music is not really going anywhere. The prog metal movement certainly blossomed. But those players are generally not ones that cross over into the mainstream. Take JP. Most prog people know who he is. Maybe metal. But if you ask a random 45 year old who John Petrucci is, or Dream Theater is, they won't know. So by default, at least with the criteria I established for my own list, he doesn't make it. Whereas, you mention Hendrix, EVH, or Black Sabbath, boom.
Maybe Jimmy Page is that guy. The more I think about it. The more I realize that he probably fits the bill.
Hendrix
Iommi
Page
EVH
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I’d say the average 45 y/o on the street might have heard of Black Sabbath, but I think even that is debatable. There’s know way they’d have heard of Iommi.
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Reading through all of this, Cobain was my first thought as well, especially given the criteria laid out in the OP.
Look, I've spent most of my guitar-playing years attempting to cram as many notes into a measure as possible—I long worshiped at the alter of JP and Co., so I fully get the instinctive scrunch-face that occurs whenever Cobain's name appears in a guitar-centric conversation.
That all said, I also have about two decades of teaching experience, and during that time, I have watched the guitar go the way of boxing. For those unfamiliar with the analogy, there was a time when professional boxing reigned supreme, and the NFL and NBA were fledgling outliers on the sports landscape. Obviously, boxing still exists, but it is the veritable definition of niche at this point, especially in the U.S.
The same can be said for guitar. Fortunately, there are still 13-year olds out there falling in love with guitar rock, but they are few and far between.
After all of these years, I remain amazed by the staying power of Nirvana's brief musical output. The future of guitar/rock/music in general isn't people my age, it's 13-year-olds, and to this day, Nirvana remains a near unanimous starting point for so many of this kids.
Maybe twice in all of my years of teaching, a kid has come in and asked me, "have you ever heard of Dream Theater?"
Nirvana, on the other hand, is still an ever-present mainstay in my teaching repertoire.
While this final point is necessarily part of the OP, I personally feel that the ability to inspire others would factor heavily into my Mt. Rushmore. For that reason, Cobain would probably be up there.
I can't really argue with any of this. I am always fascinated with Cobain's place in these kinds of discussions. He certainly struck a nerve.
Huge Kurt fan here Met him even Kurt really broke barriers and used the guitar like a weapon, not sure about him being on this list but he was just amazing in all ways
You kind of look a little like him, as well. :)
I hear that from time to time : )
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If we're going only by the innovative idea:
Tony Iommi
EVH
Dimebag
Tom Morello
Yngwie could probably be included too. But those guys above really took rock guitar playing to another level.
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If we're going only by the innovative idea:
Tony Iommi
EVH
Dimebag
Tom Morello
Yngwie could probably be included too. But those guys above really took rock guitar playing to another level.
How was Dimebag innovative? Genuinely curious, I never was even remotely a Pantera fan, so know little of him.
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If we're going only by the innovative idea:
Tony Iommi
EVH
Dimebag
Tom Morello
Yngwie could probably be included too. But those guys above really took rock guitar playing to another level.
How was Dimebag innovative? Genuinely curious, I never was even remotely a Pantera fan, so know little of him.
I consider him to be the EVH of the 90's. He put a ton of groove into his rhythm playing, he could shred like crazy when it came to leads (or play with a lot of feel, like his leads in Floods or Walk), and he was rather prolific with harmonics and squeals. He could just get unique sounds to come out of the instrument and inspired kids in the 90's to want to play like him.
I'm not a musician, so I can't explain it further than that. Just a hell of a player and a guy that flew a flag for this type of playing in the 90's, when it wasn't always cool to be a traditional metal guitarist.
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If we're going only by the innovative idea:
Tony Iommi
EVH
Dimebag
Tom Morello
Yngwie could probably be included too. But those guys above really took rock guitar playing to another level.
How was Dimebag innovative? Genuinely curious, I never was even remotely a Pantera fan, so know little of him.
I consider him to be the EVH of the 90's. He put a ton of groove into his rhythm playing, he could shred like crazy when it came to leads (or play with a lot of feel, like his leads in Floods or Walk), and he was rather prolific with harmonics and squeals. He could just get unique sounds to come out of the instrument and inspired kids in the 90's to want to play like him.
I'm not a musician, so I can't explain it further than that. Just a hell of a player and a guy that flew a flag for this type of playing in the 90's, when it wasn't always cool to be a traditional metal guitarist.
Hmmm. Not a Pantera fan, but aware of them for various reasons. I don't have to like a player to hear them and say "wow, I've never heard that before". I've never listened to a Pantera song and said "wow, I've never heard that before".
I hear a lot of Zakk Wylde in Darrell's playing. know Dime was recording before Zakk Wylde (1984-ish to Zakk's 1988) but Pantera did their big stylistic swicheroo in the 1990 timeframe, so I don't know what to make of that.
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The big thing with Dimebag was the rhythmic swagger. He took thrash riffs and gave them more groove, more swing, more syncopation (foreshadowing Meshuggah and others later), and started making significant downtuning much more widespread. The whole sound of metal rhythm guitar shifted again, probably the second biggest since Hetfield. I don't like his tone at all, but it was really different from everyone else, using solid state amps, it was very jagged and sledgehammer-like, a massive influence on countless players. And he did that while also being a superb lead player, with most of the tricks EVH could do, but in a far more aggressive context. Heck, our own JP cites him as a major influence.
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He doesn’t fit the mainstream category, but Ty Tabor was also pretty influential on the 90s hard rock/metal/grunge scene.
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He doesn’t fit the mainstream category, but Ty Tabor was also pretty influential on the 90s hard rock/metal/grunge scene.
Yes he was. Love Ty. One of my favorites. Such great tone and feel.
I'm glad this topic took off.
I think folks who are making the case for Dime and Hetfield are doing a good job. I think both changed the game for sure. If there was a "metal only" Mt. Rushmore foursome, I'm sure they'd be there. But that's why I made it hard rock/metal. Those genres are so entwined, I'm not a fan of how things are now defined and separated out, subgenre-wise. But most importantly, merging them really makes you think hard.
The only two, as I said earlier, most of us agree on is Hendrix and EVH. Which is absolutely okay.
I think if we expanded Mt. Rushmore to say six players, we're probably going to be a lot more aligned on these guys:
Hendrix
EVH
Iommi
Page
Hetfield
Dime
But narrowing it to four is hard. Really hard.
And major shout again to HOF - Ty Tabor. Man, I could listen to that guy just noodle on his guitar all day long. Fun fact, he was asked to join Queensryche years ago. Through Jason Slater. Ty declined (this was in 2008) because they were putting the final touches on King's X's XV album and he didn't want to bail on that. He said he was honored to be asked. Just such a great dude.
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Didn’t Ty play in some version of Geoff Tate’s QR?
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He doesn’t fit the mainstream category, but Ty Tabor was also pretty influential on the 90s hard rock/metal/grunge scene.
Yes he was. Love Ty. One of my favorites. Such great tone and feel.
I'm glad this topic took off.
I think folks who are making the case for Dime and Hetfield are doing a good job. I think both changed the game for sure. If there was a "metal only" Mt. Rushmore foursome, I'm sure they'd be there. But that's why I made it hard rock/metal. Those genres are so entwined, I'm not a fan of how things are now defined and separated out, subgenre-wise. But most importantly, merging them really makes you think hard.
The only two, as I said earlier, most of us agree on is Hendrix and EVH. Which is absolutely okay.
I think if we expanded Mt. Rushmore to say six players, we're probably going to be a lot more aligned on these guys:
Hendrix
EVH
Iommi
Page
Hetfield
Dime
But narrowing it to four is hard. Really hard.
And major shout again to HOF - Ty Tabor. Man, I could listen to that guy just noodle on his guitar all day long. Fun fact, he was asked to join Queensryche years ago. Through Jason Slater. Ty declined (this was in 2008) because they were putting the final touches on King's X's XV album and he didn't want to bail on that. He said he was honored to be asked. Just such a great dude.
No, you had it right the first time. I love me some Hetfield, and have respect for Dime, but they don't belong here, IMO. not if we're leaving the Jeff Beck's of the world off. Or Jerry Garcia, for that matter.
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If we're going only by the innovative idea:
Tony Iommi
EVH
Dimebag
Tom Morello
Yngwie could probably be included too. But those guys above really took rock guitar playing to another level.
How was Dimebag innovative? Genuinely curious, I never was even remotely a Pantera fan, so know little of him.
Or Tom Morello for that matter.
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Didn’t Ty play in some version of Geoff Tate’s QR?
He recorded solos for GT's QR, under the promise they were for a GT solo album and not a QR album. It was very underhanded of the Tates to do that. Slater called Tabor afterward and explained and apologized, and Tabor was gracious enough to waive any guilt off from Slater's part in that.
No, you had it right the first time. I love me some Hetfield, and have respect for Dime, but they don't belong here, IMO. not if we're leaving the Jeff Beck's of the world off. Or Jerry Garcia, for that matter.
Of course I had it right the first time. LOL. C'mon Stads, I'm never wrong. :biggrin: :lol
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I don’t even like Metallica, but it does feel like someone from the band should be on a Mt. Rushmore of hard rock/metal. Maybe Dave Mustaine, LOL.
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If we're going only by the innovative idea:
Tony Iommi
EVH
Dimebag
Tom Morello
Yngwie could probably be included too. But those guys above really took rock guitar playing to another level.
How was Dimebag innovative? Genuinely curious, I never was even remotely a Pantera fan, so know little of him.
Or Tom Morello for that matter.
I say this just as my own opinion, but I consider Tom Morello one of the more over-hyped, over-rated guitar players around. He's had some cool riffs for sure, but the "sound collage" as "guitar solo" thing wore off for me really quickly. I dig his enthusiasm for the genre (not so much his social positions) but that's not reflective of how "innovative" he might be.
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I think it has to be Samsara's list, with maybe a bit of Stadler in there. I wish I could add to it, but--and I'm not criticizing the OP at all--the criteria are so narrow that they necessarily restrict discussion to only a small number of players. In light of that, not really sure what can be added, both in terms of names and discussion.
But to add to the case for Hetfield: There isn't a single thing he was doing that might be described as "innovative." But what he did in totality still fits the description of "innovative" in my mind. He played heavy, he played fast, he used a lot of muting and percussive playing, he incorporated a lot of classical influenced and combined them with punk influences, and he played with very clean, precise technique. In combining those elements, he was doing something innovative, in my mind, especially as it developed into a signature style that helped launch an entire new subgenre of metal (and, yes, I know Metallica didn't "invent" thrash by any stretch--but they brought it to popularity and created a recognizable brand). That, to me, qualifies him, or at least puts him in the discussion. He wouldn't be on my personal Mt. Rushmore, mind you. But I think he arguably fits the criteria laid out in this thread.
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Maybe we need to use the criteria that Gutzon Borglum used to select the four presidents to be carved into Mount Rusmoore.
https://www.nps.gov/moru/learn/historyculture/why-these-four-presidents.htm
1. Washington - represented the birth of the United States
2. Jefferson - represented the growth of the United States
3. Roosevelt - represented the development of the United States
4. Lincoln - represented the preservation of the United States
Maybe we need one guy who was an originator of hard rock/metal (Hendrix, Page, or Iommi?), one who grew the popularity of hard/rock metal (EVH?), one who developed the genres further (Hetfield?), and one who has carried on or preserved the genres (thinking someone more modern but not sure who - maybe an Adam Jones or Mark Tremonti type).
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bosk:
The criteria are strict on purpose - Mt. Rushmore is supposed to be the absolute pinnacle, right? Immortalized for their importance. The criteria are absolutely necessary in order to make sure the "right" people are on it, ya know?
I love the case for Hetfield. I really, really do. But what he was doing was being done by others at the time. Venom, Angel Witch, etc. Yes, Hetfield did it faster. No denying that. But the essence of what he did was already there. And then there's...there's the fact he's not a complete player. He isn't a soloist. I think someone put on a "Mt. Rushmore" of guitarists has to have the recorded history of not just playing rhythm, but also expanded leads. Hendrix, EVH, Iommi, Page (if you think he should be on there), all fit that bill.
"Completeness" is probably another criteria that should be added. If you just play leads, or you just play rhythm, it's probably a strong strike against a person being on that mountain. Just some food for thought.
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bosk:
The criteria are strict on purpose - Mt. Rushmore is supposed to be the absolute pinnacle, right? Immortalized for their importance. The criteria are absolutely necessary in order to make sure the "right" people are on it, ya know?
Oh, I get it. Like I said, I'm not criticizing. I'm just stating why it is so difficult to come up with more names. And other people might feel you can get the "pinnacle" with slightly different criteria. But, yeah, I still get what you are saying. No major disagreement from me.
Regarding Hetfield:And then there's...there's the fact he's not a complete player. He isn't a soloist. I think someone put on a "Mt. Rushmore" of guitarists has to have the recorded history of not just playing rhythm, but also expanded leads. Hendrix, EVH, Iommi, Page (if you think he should be on there), all fit that bill.
"Completeness" is probably another criteria that should be added. If you just play leads, or you just play rhythm, it's probably a strong strike against a person being on that mountain. Just some food for thought.
I'm going to push back a little bit on this. James can and does solo. I was going to name a few, but this is from wikipedia: Hetfield occasionally plays guitar solos on songs such as "Nothing Else Matters", "My Friend of Misery", "Just a Bullet Away", the outro solo on "The Outlaw Torn", the second solo on "To Live Is to Die", the first solo on "Suicide and Redemption", the first interlude solo on "Master of Puppets", and the harmonized solo on "Orion". He also writes the majority of the guitar harmonies, as well as writing the lyrics, vocal melodies, and co-arranging the songs with Ulrich.
I wouldn't knock him just because he chooses to view himself as more of a rhythm player, since he has demonstrated that he can take leads, and can do so VERY competently (there are a lot of people that feel he is a better soloist than Hammett). He just doesn't really view that as his place within the band. And that fits in a band where you have two guitarists. I think it's worth noting that the other guitarists on the list are in bands where they are the only guitarists, so they kind of have to play both or else it doesn't happen. James not playing the majority of solos is more a function of Metallica's music and band structure than an inability to be a "complete guitarist," again as evidenced by the fact that he does take the occasional solo, and the solos that he plays are very good.
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Bit of an out there choice but how about Sister Rosetta Tharpe?
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:who:
EDIT: You know, actually, after doing a bit of research, I think she absolutely qualifies. Relatively unknown nowadays, but I think that is largely a factor of the era in which she played. I had no idea, but am impressed. And she gets major metal cred for rocking a Gibson SG. Props to Brother Soupy for putting that one out there.
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Bit of an out there choice but how about Sister Rosetta Tharpe?
Stadler in here to support this in 3....2...
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Bit of an out there choice but how about Sister Rosetta Tharpe?
Out there choice for hard rock/metal guitarists? That's one way to put it.
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bosk:
The criteria are strict on purpose - Mt. Rushmore is supposed to be the absolute pinnacle, right? Immortalized for their importance. The criteria are absolutely necessary in order to make sure the "right" people are on it, ya know?
When we're talking influence though, Jeffrey Dunn and Kevin Heybourne are not really even household names among metal fans. They've heard of the bands, but no one cites their style like they do Hetfield's. Innovation in music is never really about being literally the first person to do something, you have to generate a following.
And I don't think being a complete player is really necessary, you can have a specialist, particularly when even in metal rhythm guitar is still 80%+ of the song.
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Bit of an out there choice but how about Sister Rosetta Tharpe?
Out there choice for hard rock/metal guitarists? That's one way to put it.
Well, all I'll say is that I don't think it's a coincidence that I searched for her on YouTube, and after two videos of hers played in a row, the next one that came up on autoplay was a Metallica performance of Hardwired To Self-Destruct. I think it's pretty clear that there are forces we cannot see or comprehend that are trying to tell us that Tharpe and Hetfield and pretty much two sides of the same coin here.
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Bit of an out there choice but how about Sister Rosetta Tharpe?
Out there choice for hard rock/metal guitarists? That's one way to put it.
Well, all I'll say is that I don't think it's a coincidence that I searched for her on YouTube, and after two videos of hers played in a row, the next one that came up on autoplay was a Metallica performance of Hardwired To Self-Destruct. I think it's pretty clear that there are forced we cannot see or comprehend that are trying to tell us that Tharpe and Hetfield and pretty much two sides of the same coin here.
:lol
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Bit of an out there choice but how about Sister Rosetta Tharpe?
Stadler in here to support this in 3....2...
Why not? She helped me learn Spanish.
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Can we start the bass and drum Mt. Rushmore threads now?
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I'm looking forward to the cowbell one.
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Bit of an out there choice but how about Sister Rosetta Tharpe?
Stadler in here to support this in 3....2...
Why not? She helped me learn Spanish.
Nice.
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Can we start the bass and drum Mt. Rushmore threads now?
Billy Sheehan would be on it
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How was Cobain innovative with the instrument?
I'd say Litho and Munny have explained it better than I can already. Not being a guitarist myself, just a lifelong drummer and music fan, so I can't really speak about technique, theory etc. Innovative I suppose in how he delivered a movement to the masses while adding his own style. Like it or not, it exploded in popularity that lives on to this day.
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How was Cobain innovative with the instrument?
I'd say Litho and Munny have explained it better than I can already. Not being a guitarist myself, just a lifelong drummer and music fan, so I can't really speak about technique, theory etc. Innovative I suppose in how he delivered a movement to the masses while adding his own style. Like it or not, it exploded in popularity that lives on to this day.
I am an adequate guitarist but I simply can't see what he did on the instrument worthy of being named here.
A movement to the masses he did, I agree but it had nothing to do with the way he played or what he did on the guitar.
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Bit of an out there choice but how about Sister Rosetta Tharpe?
Out there choice for hard rock/metal guitarists? That's one way to put it.
Well she was pre those genres, but she clearly influenced those who went on to create blues and rock n roll.
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Can we start the bass and drum Mt. Rushmore threads now?
DRUMS:
My personal ones:
Bonham
Peart
Collins
Portnoy
More objective:
Bonham
Peart
Collins
Starr
BASS:
My personal:
Chris Squire
Paul McCartney
Geezer Butler (the REAL juice behind Sabbath, IMO)
Les Claypool
More objective:
Chris Squire
Paul McCartney
Geezer Butler
Geddy Lee
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If that catches on I certainly have my own lists, including saxophone, violin, and mandolin. :)
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Baker. Bonham, Moon and Peart.
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Peart, Moon, Bonham, and Portnoy... With a spot saved for Kawaguchi when she finishes becoming the best drummer ever
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Drummers:
D'Virgilio, Peart, Collins, Portnoy
Bassists:
Trewavas, Sheehan, Levin, Lee
Assuming we're not just talking hard rock/metal.
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This is a lot harder than the keyboard list, but I think I have my four.
Dimebag Darrell
Synyster Gates
James Hetfield
John Petrucci (my personal favorite)
These are the guitarists of my four favorite metal bands (sorry Kirk and Zacky) and their riffs/solos have had more of an influence on me than any other musicians save for some of my favorite bassists and drummers.
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Bass
Squire
Lee
Entwistle
Myung
HM: McCartney and Butler
Drums
Bonham
Peart
Collins
Portnoy
HM: Moon, Rockenfield, Zonder
Keyboards
Emerson
Wakeman
Banks
Rudess
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Bass
Squire
Lee
Entwistle
Myung
Drums
Bonham
Peart
Collins
Portnoy
Keyboards
Emerson
Wakeman
Banks
Rudess
Were totally in sync on the bass and keys, and 3/4 on drummers. If this was a rating profile I'd be swiping right so fucking hard...
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Bass
Squire
Lee
Entwistle
Myung
Drums
Bonham
Peart
Collins
Portnoy
Keyboards
Emerson
Wakeman
Banks
Rudess
Were totally in sync on the bass and keys, and 3/4 on drummers. If this was a rating profile I'd be swiping right so fucking hard...
We might have to fistfight; if you count Honorable Mentions, it looks like I'm a straight 12 out of 12!
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Fair point, but again, hard rock and metal was not as clearly defined back in the 70s and 80s as they are now (overly so, IMO, but that's a thread for a different day).
The tension though (aka "difficult choice") is the whole point. Metal/Hard Rock really is interchangeable to my ears...up until thrash metal. Then I think it really separates. But all of that, and this entire Rushmore thing is so incredibly subjective.
Yeah, in the 70s KISS, Alice Cooper, AC/DC, Ted Nugent, Aerosmith, all kinds of stuff was being called "metal", and occasionally will still get called that way by some people. I think you start to get some separation on Black Sabbath's Master of Reality and Priest's Sin After Sin, but things don't really start taking off until the 80s. But even then it's tricky because if you bring in thrash, then it's blending into a different direction, into hardcore punk rather than hard rock.
In the end these things are bound to evolution and of limits being stretched. See it like sunset, when the sun goes down you can call it "dark". But then the night approaches and is even "darker", so what was arguabily "not-day", is certainly not as dark as the pitch black night.
Also, what's a "tall" building? the Great Pyramid was the tallest building for millennia. Then some gothic churches were. Then some skyscrapers were. Are gothic churches no longer tall? no, they are, but we have skyscrapers now that are taller than anything else.
Same with hard rock / metal. It was an evolution, it's hard to determine the exact moment something became "metal" just like it's hard to determine the precise moment when the day is no longer day, but night (that's what twilight is for, the passage between the two times of the day).
The 'tall building' analogy really hit the hammer on the nail.
Chuck Berry truly started it all. In the 60s, 'ERIC CLAPTON IS GOD' was spray painted on many a brick wall. George Harrison was innovative and would have made everyone's 'Mount' at the time. Beck, .....Page...and, of course, Hendrix.
70's: I'm prejudiced, but Brian May made sounds that no one had done before, and many emulated and semi copied in the years since. A shame that he wasn't allowed to shine more in the 80s. Who else can do BoRhap, the thirty seconds of 'You Take My Breath Away', 'Tie Your Mother Down', and then various rockers and the lovely 'a Winter's Tale' as the maestro of the fireplace. And who 'tapped' before EVH.
(we still bring out the photo with Brian on day one of our honeymoon in '02, and people may not know the name, but they recognize the face and the band :tup)
Iommi: love him to death, and the friendship between him and May is undeniable.
And, then there's JP, who's sometimes Queenish stylings attracted me to DT in the first place.
So...my five headed Rushmore would be Hendrix, Page, May, EVH, and Petrucci.
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Bass
Squire
Lee
Entwistle
Myung
Drums
Bonham
Peart
Collins
Portnoy
Keyboards
Emerson
Wakeman
Banks
Rudess
Were totally in sync on the bass and keys, and 3/4 on drummers. If this was a rating profile I'd be swiping right so fucking hard...
We might have to fistfight; if you count Honorable Mentions, it looks like I'm a straight 12 out of 12!
"Straight" being the operative word!
But really, there's plenty of me to go around. :biggrin:
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My personal guitar Mt. Rushmore:
Jeff Loomis
John Petrucci
Mikael Akerfeldt
Per Nilsson
We should probably have separate threads for the others, but just in case:
Bass:
Sean Malone
Stanley Clarke
Steve DiGiorgio
Tony Levin
Drums:
Daniel Liljekvist
Danny Carey
Dave Weckl
Neil Peart
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Guitar:
Petrucci
Slash
Page
May
Bass:
Entwistle
Harris
Sheehan
Myung
Drums:
Portnoy
Palmer
Bonham
Peart
Vocals:
Mercury
Mercury
Mercury
Mercury ;)
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Bass
Cliff Burton (my personal favorite)
Geddy Lee
John Myung
Victor Wooten
Drums
Mike Mangini
Neil Peart
Mike Portnoy (my personal favorite)
Jimmy “The Rev” Sullivan
Vocals
Brad Delp
Billie Eilish
Lzzy Hale (my personal favorite)
James Hetfield
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Of course, as in the favorite vocalists countdown, the correct answer is Elvis. :laugh:
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Guitar:
Guthrie Govan
John Petrucci
Alex Lifeson
Prince
Bass:
Geddy Lee
Jaco Pastorius
Pete Trewavas
John Entwisle
Drums:
Neil Peart
Mike Portnoy
Gavin Harrison
Nick D'Virgilio
Keyboards:
Rick Wakeman
Jordan Rudess
Kieth Emerson
Tony Banks
Nobody's mentioned Prince on the guitar. Not as technical as some of the others but played with about as much feel as anyone. Always loved his playing and still one of my favorite guitarists of all time!
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His Superbowl performance was probably the best halftime show I've seen.
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I think it has to be Samsara's list, with maybe a bit of Stadler in there. I wish I could add to it, but--and I'm not criticizing the OP at all--the criteria are so narrow that they necessarily restrict discussion to only a small number of players. In light of that, not really sure what can be added, both in terms of names and discussion.
But to add to the case for Hetfield: There isn't a single thing he was doing that might be described as "innovative." But what he did in totality still fits the description of "innovative" in my mind. He played heavy, he played fast, he used a lot of muting and percussive playing, he incorporated a lot of classical influenced and combined them with punk influences, and he played with very clean, precise technique. In combining those elements, he was doing something innovative, in my mind, especially as it developed into a signature style that helped launch an entire new subgenre of metal (and, yes, I know Metallica didn't "invent" thrash by any stretch--but they brought it to popularity and created a recognizable brand). That, to me, qualifies him, or at least puts him in the discussion. He wouldn't be on my personal Mt. Rushmore, mind you. But I think he arguably fits the criteria laid out in this thread.
Wow that's an awesome write-up on Het. I believe he is more responsible than anyone else in hard rock/metal for the millions of guys and girls getting into playing guitar since 1991 or, arguably, 1980-whatever. It's not just the playing, it's the coolness factor of him up there owning the stage and playing those great songs while singing at the same time. Just an iconic figure, extremely influential.
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I didn't do vocals, yet:
1. Freddie Mercury
2. Robert Plant
3. Steve Perry
4. Elvis
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I didn't do vocals, yet:
1. Freddie Mercury
2. Robert Plant
3. Steve Perry
4. Elvis
The King isn't #1? :eek
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I didn't do vocals, yet:
1. Freddie Mercury
2. Robert Plant
3. Steve Perry
4. Elvis
The King isn't #1? :eek
HAHA, I'm not sure they are in order. :)