Poll
Question:
Which do you like more?
Option 1: A Change of Seasons
votes: 113
Option 2: Octavarium
votes: 88
I'm sure this thread has been done before, but even so, it hasn't been done in a long time. And since there's a ton of new members now, I think it deserves a re-awakening.
My choice: ACOS. I'll explain why tomorrow or so, I'm a bit tired now.
ACOS
Both are top 10, and it's hard to choose.
I can't really explain it to be honest.
I would say A Change Of Seasons for one very simple reason: Vocals.
Musically, they're both amazing. And I might even say Octavarium is a bit better. But A Change Of Seasons has much more poetic lyrics and much more beautiful vocals and is a lot more fun to sing along with.
Octavarium.
It's my favorite song of all time. However Seasons wins the prize for sounding like one song for 20+ minutes. That's pretty impressive.
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on October 09, 2011, 09:11:34 PM
I would say A Change Of Seasons for one very simple reason: Vocals.
Musically, they're both amazing. And I might even say Octavarium is a bit better. But A Change Of Seasons has much more poetic lyrics and much more beautiful vocals and is a lot more fun to sing along with.
I was actually thinking today about the lyrics in ACOS, and how they really prove that lyrics can add so much to a song. Fucking beautiful lyrics, probably the best DT lyrics to date. It really creates that epic and emotional atmosphere that makes the song such a joy to listen to. If every DT song had these kind of lyrics... my god, I'd be a happy man.
Octavarium easily for me. ACOS is a great song, but I rarely listen to it, and it's missing the magic of Octavarium. ACOS has nothing as good as the Razor's Edge solo / outro. And it's also got that great Moog/keyboard solo by JR in the middle.
For me it's-
ACOS - 8/10
Octavarium - 9/10
Quote from: Vajra on October 09, 2011, 09:15:54 PM
I was actually thinking today about the lyrics in ACOS, and how they really prove that lyrics can add so much to a song. Fucking beautiful lyrics, probably the best DT lyrics to date. It really creates that epic and emotional atmosphere that makes the song such a joy to listen to. If every DT song had these kind of lyrics... my god, I'd be a happy man.
The delivery is a huge part of it too. It gets melancholy, but remains strong. And when it kicks into like, "I'm sick of all you hypocrites," it still gives me an adrenalin rush.
A Change of Seasons by several miles.
I'm not going to explain what I like so much about ACoS, because going down that road could take a loooooooooooooooooooooooong time.
As for Octavarium, I do love the song. And let me say this: if I could rank just the second half of 8VM as an individual song, that individual song might beat ACoS. I think that the instrumental section between Medicate and Full Circle is glorious, Full Circle itself is amazing, Intervals is one of the greatest climaxes in the history of music, and Razor's Edge is a perfect way to wind it down to completion. I'm just not as in love with the first two sections of the song. I still enjoy them, don't get me wrong. And the intro of Someone Like Him is definitely great. I just feel like they aren't nearly as strong as the second half of the song, and end up dragging down my overall opinion of the song a little bit.
Basically, when I listen to Octavarium, I'm sorta biding my time through the first two sections, just waiting for 12:15 to arrive and the musical bliss to really begin.
Whereas with ACoS, the whole song captures my rapt attention from intro to outro.
Octavarium for me, the flute in the intro (my girlfriend is a classically trained flautist, so i'm biased) the instrumental section and the epic outro define the match for me. A love ACOS though.
A Change of Seasons: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=13491.msg1054297#msg1054297
Octavarium: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=13491.msg1081441#msg1081441
Quote from: BlobVanDam on October 09, 2011, 09:18:52 PM
Octavarium easily for me. ACOS is a great song, but I rarely listen to it, and it's missing the magic of Octavarium. ACOS has nothing as good as the Razor's Edge solo / outro. And it's also got that great Moog/keyboard solo by JR in the middle.
For me it's-
ACOS - 8/10
Octavarium - 9/10
I agree with this almost entirely. I don't really listen to ACOS that much, even though I really like the song when I do listen to it. Something about Octavarium gives me the urge to listen to it every few days or so.
Quote from: BlobVanDam on October 09, 2011, 09:18:52 PM
Octavarium easily for me. ACOS is a great song, but I rarely listen to it, and it's missing the magic of Octavarium. ACOS has nothing as good as the Razor's Edge solo / outro. And it's also got that great Moog/keyboard solo by JR in the middle.
For me it's-
ACOS - 8/10
Octavarium - 9/10
Pretty much this for me except
ACOS - 9/10
Octavarium - 10/10
ACOS for me. I like its intro a hell of a lot more than 8VM's since it's more actual music than Continuum "atmospheres" like so much of what turns me off in other songs I otherwise love like Pink Floyd's Echoes (noise section after the middle groove not the intro), TCOT, etc. I also think the riffs in general are much better in ACOS and the song has a much more enjoyably coherent flow to it as well. After six years I'm finally beginning to like 8VM after having trouble even making it through its entirety before that, so the future is bright as I hope to like it more and more but for now ACOS' cuisine reigns supreme.
Octa, pretty easily. ACOS has never felt like one song (which seems to go against popular opinion?) while 8VM doesn't drag in any of its glorious 24 minutes. 8VM is so much more of a 'journey' for me, while ACOS sounds almost cobbled together, and ACOS' highs (I love you... goodbye) aren't anything like up there with Octavarium's (Medicate, the ~13 minute mark keyboard solo, the Full Circle verses and the whole of Intervals).
My favorite DT song vs the most overrated DT song... ACOS wins easily; better lyrics (not that 8V has bad lyrics, they just can't touch ACOS lyrics), better flow, no sections that drag on. I'd rate ACOS 10/10 and Octavarium 8 (nuggetz!) or 7 out of 10.
Quote from: MK_Ultra on October 09, 2011, 11:41:47 PM
Octa, pretty easily. ACOS has never felt like one song (which seems to go against popular opinion?) while 8VM doesn't drag in any of its glorious 24 minutes. 8VM is so much more of a 'journey' for me, while ACOS sounds almost cobbled together, and ACOS' highs (I love you... goodbye) aren't anything like up there with Octavarium's (Medicate, the ~13 minute mark keyboard solo, the Full Circle verses and the whole of Intervals).
The first 3:48 of 8VM don't drag on but ACOS does :huh: Just curious as to what your criteria for "dragging on" is. Not nitpicking either, honestly curious.
ACOS, and it's not even remotely close. It's my third favorite DT song. I have NO clue why people love Octavarium so much. It just doesn't work for me.
Quote from: Pols Voice on October 10, 2011, 01:44:45 AM
ACOS, and it's not even remotely close.... I have NO clue why people love Octavarium so much. It just doesn't work for me.
Pretty much this. Octavarium doesn't really grab me as much as ACOS.
Octavarium for me. IMO, it has a flow to it that ACOS doesn't have. I also feel that listening to the track tells a story musically that ACOS, once again IMO, doesn't. That doesn't mean that ACOS is a bad song, but I think Octavarium is just one of the best songs to ever have been put out. By anyone.
Octavarium easily. ACOS is a great song and still top 5, but Octavarium is the best thing ever written
Wow this was a Really tough one, But I went with "A Change Of Seasons" I love both songs and they're both probably in my top ten, but "A Change Of Seasons" edges out "8V" in the lyrics department IMO.
Also I'd like to add if "ACOS" had been on Images And Words as Originally planed, it would have edged out Scenes From A Memory as my favorite DT album and possibly my favorite album of all time.
Quote from: Pols Voice on October 10, 2011, 01:44:45 AM
ACOS, and it's not even remotely close. It's my third favorite DT song. I have NO clue why people love Octavarium so much. It just doesn't work for me.
Go and listen to Razor's Edge and then tell me you can't figure it out. That to me far exceeds any part of ACOS.
I find that ACOS has much better lyrical continuity and flow, especially as Octavarium doesn't intend any as far as I can tell. It's a couple of unrelated stories, then some random juxtaposition of name dropping, then a summary of the album. So obviously ACOS is going to connect a lot more emotionally for a lot of people, having a very personal story behind it.
But I find Octavarium has much better musical flow. I know what you're thinking - "BlobVanDam, you crazy". But just hang on for a sec. Octavarium is sort of like 5 or so big musical sections that aren't related, kind of stuck together. But musically, these sections flow into each other pretty well for me. And for a 24 minute song, these few transitions are pretty well spaced apart, and done well.
ACOS on the other hand, feels like dozens of little musical sections stuck together, and while they mostly flow pretty well, I find it a lot more jarring for the emotion of the music, because it doesn't build as long on each section.
Obviously both approaches can work equally well or badly, as it comes down to the specific song. But for these two songs specifically, Octavarium does it better than ACOS imo.
Of course, I'm talking musically here, as I value that much more than lyrics. Lyrically, I won't at all argue that ACOS trumps Octavarium. Different strokes.
Quote from: BlobVanDam on October 10, 2011, 02:47:46 AM
It's a couple of unrelated stories, then some random juxtaposition of name dropping, then a summary of the album.
That's my biggest problem with it.
Quote from: Pols Voice on October 10, 2011, 02:52:39 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on October 10, 2011, 02:47:46 AM
It's a couple of unrelated stories, then some random juxtaposition of name dropping, then a summary of the album.
That's my biggest problem with it.
Completely understandable. The Full Circle random lyrics really annoyed me when I first heard the song, and lyrically the song is pretty random. Maybe there's some super secret nugget connecting the lyrics, although I'm pretty sure it's just random stuff, but I'm ok with that.
A Change of Seasons
To have created a song like this so early in a band's career is respectable. There are some truly great moments - everything up to and including the Another World guitar solo is fantastic. That said, the instrumentals following that are pretty "meh", tacked on almost like an afterthought. Let's get one thing straight: ACOS has the best lyrics of any DT song. And when you have JLB doing lyrics like that at the top of his game, some of those moments are chill-inducing. If this song was re-worked and all the excess fat removed, it would be an easy top 10.
Octavarium
To me, this song is just far and above every other DT song. It's on the highest plane of musical existence all by itself. The atmosphere and magic that this song creates is second to none. And when you remember that Octavarium references so many things both lyrically and musically, and to have that all together in one little 24 minute package is quite phenomenal. The intro itself is so wonderfully moody, I'm just ensnared from the get-go each time. Next, we have the acoustic + flute section of Someone Like Him. Music just does not get better than that. Medicate puts me into such a serene state each time; anyone who condemns DT as being emotionless certainly hasn't listened to Medicate. There is one thing I find "meh" about Octavarium: Full Circle's verse. Love the instrumentals surrounding it, but the music and vocals of the actual verse ("Sailing on the seven...") is pretty standard. EVERYONE loves Octavarium's climax, which JLB absolutely nails in the Score version (that scream actually makes me cum). And finally, the most majestic finale to a prog song: Razor's Edge. It's not just grandiose... it's saturated with emotion. The backing orchestra really breathes life into JP's solo.
No contest for me really. Octavarium is DT's masterpiece. I genuinely feel like a better person with that song in my life :D
ACOS . it has that vibe . sherinian work . i have an emotional attachement to that song (especially the LFNY rendition)
OCTAVARIUM is good too but for ME it can't beat ACOS
ACOS for me, everything about it is just so beautiful... I can see why someone would pick 8VM but I just don't feel that 'magic' that a lot of you feel about it.
ACoS. Emotionally it's just a lot more resonant. MP outdid himself, lyrically speaking, with this one.
3. ACOS
4. 8VM
It's really close. I guess it comes down to the fact that I feel a bit indifferent about Razor's Edge - yeah shoot me. That brings down the average level of 8vm quite frankly, while ACOS never really loses it. Oh yeah, ACOS also has one the best DT solo sections ever.
ACoS, for me. It's not even close. Octavarium has two fatal flaws from my perspective: The intro (too long and too monotonous), and the disconnected nature of the lyrics. But, even if you fixed those two things, it still wouldn't approach ACoS's greatness. ACoS is pretty much the perfect song, IMO (although I with the "Please! Don't! Go!" had made it onto the studio version).
I guess ACOS has better lyrics, but for me lyrics is just about the least important thing in a song, so it doesn't really come into my decision
A Change of Seasons.
It is awesome from start to finish. While I like all of Octavarium (I don't think the beginning drags on too long like some people do), I don't really start to love it till JR's solo about halfway through kicks in. ACOS, again, slays for the entire 23 minutes plus.
As far as sections go, Another World from ACOS is easily the best section from either song, with The Darkest of Winters slaying just about everything else as well.
My choice (ACOS) is based mostly on the song itself, although I believe the lyrics are also superior. I have never understood the amount of gushing that many Dream Theater fans do when it comes to Octavarium. The album appears at or near the bottom of the catalog in order of preference for me, and the song is something I rarely listen to. I've always found it to be a very patched-together thing with very jarring and abrupt changes that make it feel like a bunch of shorter tracks were just stitched together to create it, I've never felt that when listening to ACOS
ACOS is a moving epic about an extremely emotional, life-changing event. The lyrics are great and the music supports them perfectly. OV on the other hand is about . . . what, exactly? At least 3 different lyrical threads in there, which makes it much more difficult to connect with on an emotional level.
Aside from that, purely on a musical level I still think ACOS wins.
Quote from: Pols Voice on October 10, 2011, 02:52:39 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on October 10, 2011, 02:47:46 AM
It's a couple of unrelated stories, then some random juxtaposition of name dropping, then a summary of the album.
That's my biggest problem with it.
This, along with the overlong intro.
I like both... ...but ACOS sounds rather bad. That snare kills me! >:(
I don't hate Prater for I&W, but i really hate him for ACOS.
But only my personal opinion.
Octavarium is my favorite song. It's such a brilliantly executed concept, and the only DT epic that to me ever really sounded like a single song.
My vote was for ACOS. If for no other reason than the Another World movement.
"Oh come let us adore him
Abuse and then ignore him
No matter what, don't let him be
Let's feed upon his misery
Then string him up for all the world to see"
Is just brilliant and the vocal delivery is chill inducing.
Oh, and I really love the live cover section! It always amazes me how JP can effortlessly imitate every other guitarists style and tone.
It's interesting to me how many people in this thread are saying the exact same thing, about different songs. "I like song A better. Song B is great, but it lacks some of the magic of song A. Song A flows better, while song B feels more like a patched-together collection of unrelated musical ideas. Both songs are great, but song A just reaches higher peaks than song B. Song A takes me on more of a musical journey than song B."
Not saying there's anything wrong with these things - I agree with all of them, and for me song A is ACOS. It's just interesting to me to watch different people saying these exact same things about both songs. Just a fun illustration of how different people's opinions can be.
A Change of Seasons over Octavarium every day, especially in the winter when the right mood is set, to me it feels like a winter song, but that is not relevant. I think A Change of Seasons is better than Octavarium on every level, the lyrics is far better, the text is really emotional, the instrumental is better, And it have one of my favourite part of music ever. The Crimson Sunset.
I went with 8V.
And I LOVE ACOS.
The way 8V builds throughout each part is great. I mean both songs are top notch. 8V just has ALL that Dream Theater has to offer, I find it more dimensional than ACOS.
But like I said..I LOVE ACOS!!
ACOS. It's just way better. Perfection from start to finish. Octavarium is very good, but I always skip the intro.
Octavarium for me. Both are phenomenal pieces of music and easily top 10 songs. There's just something that little bit extra special about Octavarium, though I couldn't really put my finger on what it is.
There's a lot of talk in other forums about the point at which you discovered Dream Theater influencing certain things, like your favourite album for example. This isn't normally relevant for me, since I&W is my favourite album, yet I didn't discover the band until 2005. But maybe it makes a difference with this poll, since Octavarium was the first album I heard by DT.
Another thing I've just thought of is the fact ACOS isn't on a proper album. 8VM is an epic album closer, tying in themes and ideas from the preceding songs, giving it that little bit extra sparkle for me.
I prefer ACOS, because it feels magical and epic in scope & composition, not just in length. I like 8VM a lot too, but it isn't as special as ACOS; it's just a 24-minute song.
Quote from: black_floyd on October 10, 2011, 12:49:23 AM
Quote from: MK_Ultra on October 09, 2011, 11:41:47 PM
Octa, pretty easily. ACOS has never felt like one song (which seems to go against popular opinion?) while 8VM doesn't drag in any of its glorious 24 minutes. 8VM is so much more of a 'journey' for me, while ACOS sounds almost cobbled together, and ACOS' highs (I love you... goodbye) aren't anything like up there with Octavarium's (Medicate, the ~13 minute mark keyboard solo, the Full Circle verses and the whole of Intervals).
The first 3:48 of 8VM don't drag on but ACOS does :huh: Just curious as to what your criteria for "dragging on" is. Not nitpicking either, honestly curious.
I don't think I have any real 'criteria', I think it's entirely subjective. I guess I've never felt bored listening to 8VM, but I have with ACOS. :-X
As has been discussed, 8V doesn't carry the emotional resonance that ACOS has due to it's lyrics. I find the "Full Circle" verses to be particularly annoying, both the lyrics and vocal melodies. 8V's intro is a little long, but I don't mind that too much. Backing vox by MP bring down the overall quality as well.... again, jmo.
ACOS, on the other hand, is pretty much flawless to me in all aspects.
ACOS wins by a mile.
ACOS is Dream Theater doing a classic, album side long progressive epic, cohesive and well put together with an understandable lyrical theme. 8VM is the band, at times almost shamelessly, plundering the past of progressive rock to make a song that seems to largely BE about progressive rock. If the song is actually ABOUT anything, I've not a clue. 8VM isn't a bad song, don't get me wrong, and it gets gloriously epic at the end, but all too often for me it turns into "spot which prog band they're sounding like now." ACOS sounds like Dream Theater so it gets the nod.
I like ACOS more as I am a fan of more heavy DT sound, ACOS is just heavier than 8VM. But 8VM is a great, great musical journey, a song to remember :)
Octavarium. ACOS has a lot of cool sections and probably better lyrics, but it usually feels overlong. I have a hard time staying engaged with later section a lot of the time. 8VM of course amazing and without those hangups for me.
A Change Of Seasons
The best song that DT have ever done.
ACOS because it's actually a good song.
Quote from: Jaffa on October 10, 2011, 08:22:57 AM
It's interesting to me how many people in this thread are saying the exact same thing, about different songs. "I like song A better. Song B is great, but it lacks some of the magic of song A. Song A flows better, while song B feels more like a patched-together collection of unrelated musical ideas. Both songs are great, but song A just reaches higher peaks than song B. Song A takes me on more of a musical journey than song B."
Not saying there's anything wrong with these things - I agree with all of them, and for me song A is ACOS. It's just interesting to me to watch different people saying these exact same things about both songs. Just a fun illustration of how different people's opinions can be.
I agree with all of this (including the vote for ACOS). Both are great songs, each masterpieces in their own way, and obviously different people find different things that resonate with them, for various reasons.
Can't vote - I really don't care for either song.
For me, song A is Octavarium, and song B is A Change of Seasons.
from Jaffa's comparison, of course.
To me, Octavarium is so special to me, it is my favourite song of ALL time, for many reasons.
The lyrics are some of Dream Theater's best... They are so simple, but so whimsical and, just well put.
The music is just... Incredible. It flows from part to part seamlessly. There isn't a part that should be there, which is a common problem Dream Theater has with their longer songs.
The only problem I have really, is the intro is a little too long for some listens.. If I am not in the mood to just chill out, you know?
Otherwise, I enjoy it just as much as the rest of the song.. It really builds the suspense.
A Change of Seasons... Noooow, don't get me wrong, this was one of my all time favourites when I first found out about Dream Theater.
I love the intro, it got me hooked.. But, wait... There was something that came after it... Some sort of section that repeated way too many times and just ruined the feel for me. (The part with the distorted organ)
I will say that, whenever the vocals are present, it's one of the highest points in Dream Theater history. The vocals AND lyrics, I should say.
But, save the guitar solo section, the instrumentals are just incoherent and feel patched together. Like, literally, they feel like different parts patched together. And, that detracts a lot from me.
With that being said, If A Change of Seasons was cut down in time, I would enjoy it a lot more.
Hmm.. Maybe some sort of rating is in order.
A Change of Seasons 7.9/10 (It would be more if some of the instrumentals were cut down)
Octavarium 9.8/10
For me ACOS is the best piece of work.... by ANY band.
8VM
I just like it better. I like the various parts better than anything in aCoS and the last half is pretty much perfection.
aCoS has much, much better lyrics and it flows better as a single song, but still, 8VM is just great.
I love ACOS very much,
bcoz it has a beautiful and poetic lyric,
it has great 'music harmonization' in 23 minutes song
very nice song .....
Went with ACOS, but it's awfully close. I hovered over the poll options for quite awhile, abandoned making a decision all day, and just now came back to it.
ACOS has a more cohesive epic feel, like Rush's "Hemispheres", Yes' "Close To The Edge" or Genesis' "Supper's Ready", while 8VM is a bit more disjointed and pieced together. Heck, TCOT feels more cohesive than 8VM does at times.
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely *love* "Octavarium", and being the title epic of the first-new album they released after I became a fan, it holds a special place in my heart, but as the years have gone by, the intro has grown to be a bit long for me, and the lyrics have lost some of their novelty, but it IS fun to sing along to (especially "III. Full Circle" and "IV. Intervals").
ACOS is just totally epic to me, and it's non-stop awesome.
-Marc.
Still waiting for MP to post his choice and explanation . . .
Quote from: Dream Team on October 11, 2011, 05:54:32 AM
Still waiting for MP to post his choice and explanation . . .
Why do you expect MP to spend his free time coming here to talk about a band he's no longer a part of?
Quote from: theseoafs on October 11, 2011, 05:58:41 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on October 11, 2011, 05:54:32 AM
Still waiting for MP to post his choice and explanation . . .
Why do you expect MP to spend his free time coming here to talk about a band he's no longer a part of?
If a man gets divorced, regardless of his relationship with his ex-wife (or ex-wives ;)), does he have to stop talking about his baby? :P :biggrin:
Quote from: KevShmev on October 11, 2011, 08:26:57 AM
Quote from: theseoafs on October 11, 2011, 05:58:41 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on October 11, 2011, 05:54:32 AM
Still waiting for MP to post his choice and explanation . . .
Why do you expect MP to spend his free time coming here to talk about a band he's no longer a part of?
If a man gets divorced, regardless of his relationship with his ex-wife (or ex-wives ;)), does he have to stop talking about his baby? :P :biggrin:
Well played, sir... Well played... :hat
Quote from: KevShmev on October 11, 2011, 08:26:57 AM
Quote from: theseoafs on October 11, 2011, 05:58:41 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on October 11, 2011, 05:54:32 AM
Still waiting for MP to post his choice and explanation . . .
Why do you expect MP to spend his free time coming here to talk about a band he's no longer a part of?
If a man gets divorced, regardless of his relationship with his ex-wife (or ex-wives ;)), does he have to stop talking about his baby? :P :biggrin:
He shouldn't join the forum devoted to his ex-wife, if that's what you're asking.
Quote from: KevShmev on October 11, 2011, 08:26:57 AM
Quote from: theseoafs on October 11, 2011, 05:58:41 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on October 11, 2011, 05:54:32 AM
Still waiting for MP to post his choice and explanation . . .
Why do you expect MP to spend his free time coming here to talk about a band he's no longer a part of?
If a man gets divorced, regardless of his relationship with his ex-wife (or ex-wives ;)), does he have to stop talking about his baby? :P :biggrin:
:clap:
Both top 10 songs for me but ACoS easily wins. The Full Circle section in Octavarium I've learned to deal with but it doesn't do anything for me. I can connect more emotionally with ACoS, flows better though I listen to Octavarium much more.
ACoS always feels like it has several spots it could/should have ended but instead keeps going.
ACoS. It's better.
Quote from: ddtonfire on October 11, 2011, 04:17:44 PM
ACoS always feels like it has several spots it could/should have ended but instead keeps going.
Curious where that is in ACOS but not in 8V?
ACOS. i saw them perform it live on a small outdoor stage at some summer festival in upstate ny somewhere around '93ish i think. nobody knew what to think when they were finished playing it. my friend and i were blown away but there was only a smattering of applause from the crowd, and james got pissed. he said something like, "come on, people - we just played our asses off for 20 minutes. let me fucking hear it!"
8V just doesn't seem as epic.
ACOS is the best song I've ever heard. It is a beautiful musical journey with highs and lows, like a roller coaster. To think that one song could convey so much emotion is beyond incredible. The first day that i seized the day, I bought the song I listened to it about 20 times. I almost cried, shouted, jumped, smiled, and frowned all within the song. It transported me to another world. For me, I know it will never get old. I'm not sure if there is anything close to this special to me. Octavarium is a top 7/8 song. Great/awesome whatever... Still can't touch ACOS.
I'm picking a Change of Seasons, not because I enjoy listening to it more (I don't), but because it stands out to me as more of a Dream Theater epic, and a bit more well-crafted.
The thing about Octavarium is the music is brilliant, but it's quite obviously derivative. It's designed this way, and I wouldn't change much about it; I love every moment of it! But by wearing its influences on its sleeve, I think it's a bit lacking in individual identity. Another "problem" is the lyrics. They're not bad, but they're certainly not an emotional tour de force. They're just sort of there. That segment toward the end that's a series of homages to other bands and musicians is cool, but I also feel like it's a flaw. As awesome as it is to hear a Spock's Beard album namedropped in a Dream Theater song, I would rather have seen something else.
The payoff is amazing, and it's hard to complain about the song, but when compared with their other epics, I think it just falls a bit short in both distinctness and emotion.
A Change of Seasons is quite different. There's the obvious: in contrast to Octavarium's bright sound, it's dark and dreary most of the way through. It's much harder-hitting, and also much, much more personal. This is the most important distinction. Octavarium tells five different stories from a fairly resigned point of view; there are nods and winks at the listener throughout and little personal investment. A Change of Seasons betrays so much vulnerability that it can be a crippling experience if you really invest yourself in it. Lyrically, these types of songs are often the best, and this one stands with Kansas' The Pinnacle thematically. It's just that powerful.
I prefer to listen to Octavarium. I think A Change of Seasons is better. There's really nothing I can add to that.
ACoS by a fair margin.
Octavarium is a good song. Quite a bit overrated on these boards, but it's definitely a top 10 or 15 DT song. Still, I can understand why so many people consider it DT's magnum opus, and it has to at least be in the discussion. My one major disagreement is with regard to the Razor's Edge solo: it's okay, but it's not very innovative or emotive at all IMO, and it's not anywhere near a top Petrucci solo. Both ACoS solos are much better, for that matter.
ACoS has a weird transition or two, but the music is incredible and I don't really have the time or desire to try to explain all the reasons why. But I will say that as much as I like his drumming, I think the lyrics of ACoS were Mike Portnoy's single greatest contribution to the band.
-J
A Change of Seasons by far, for many reasons:
- it flows better, musically
- I like the mix and sound a lot more
- it has an atmosphere that really gives you the feeling of "seasons changing"
- the concept of the song is more interesting
- the lyrics are better written
These are just my opinion.
added..
- oh yeah, and Change of Seasons doesn't have that pointless keyboard solo (like Octavarium) that goes on..... and on..... and on.... and on......
ACOS, because I think that every second of it fills a purpose. Compared to Octavarium, that I think have an unnessecary long intro. Feels almost like it's added to make the song lengthy.
ACOS. I really don't think Octavarium is that great.
Quote from: Öxölklöfför on October 12, 2011, 12:07:45 AM
ACOS, because I think that every second of it fills a purpose. Compared to Octavarium, that I think have an unnessecary long intro. Feels almost like it's added to make the song lengthy.
Yeah, that keyboard solo in the beginning is awful. That solo, alone, makes Change of Seasons better. I don't understand the significance of that part at all. It serves no purpose..... it's like, "OK, can get please get on with the SONG now?"
Octavarium for me. Just so many little intricate pieces stitched together brilliantly. Agreed, it doesn't "flow" perfectly, but that's part of what I like about it. Love how it builds up to an epic climax with the guitar solo. Within DT's entire song catalog, it has the best guitar solo, best keyboard solo, and best instrumental break.
It was close, ACoS has a ton of great moments, but 8vm by a small margin.
Octavarium by quite a bit for me. I've listened to ACOS a quite a few times to try and "get" what everyone is loving about it, but it just sounds kind of average to me. One thing that always bugged me was the vocal melodies. I can't speak for the whole song, but a lot of the melodies seemed arbitrary to me, they just don't seem to go anywhere, and never really captured me. Octavarium on the other hand, is musical genius.
I think Octavarium flows better and is more epic. I think ACOS is more special and more true to the DT style.
I voted for Octavarium, but I'm glad ACOS wins this poll.
Their two best songs I think. To me A Change of Seasons is their progressive metal masterpiece and Octavarium is their progressive rock masterpiece. At the end of the day I give the edge to Octavarium.
Quote from: jingle.boy on October 12, 2011, 04:38:27 AM
Within DT's entire song catalog, it has the best guitar solo, best keyboard solo,
Just my opinion... but I don't think the razor's edge solo even deserves to be in the discussion for the best guitar solo. It is one of Petrucci's more emotional solos, but better than the extended hollow years solo L@B? Heck, while I'm at it, throw Lines in the Sand, ITNOG, TSCO, Another Day, Voices, Peruvian Skies, Scarred, UAGM, and Take the Time into this discussion as well.
Not trying to bash your opinion. Mine is just very different...
Also, as some others have said: i consider ACOS to be much stronger lyrically (my favorite MP lyrics of all).
ACoS easily. Maybe it's partly because it was one of the first songs I heard by them, but it's also much more than that. The whole carpe diem / seize the day thing means a lot more to me than 8VM's lyrics, and when "I sit down with my son, set to see the crimson sunset" comes on I STILL get goosebumps, regardless of how many times I've listened to it. Even when I was phasing out of DT after SC and BCaSL (not anymore), I still listened to that song enough. It's one of my favourite songs of all time.
Regardless, 8VM is still in my top 10 DT songs. The Score performance brought it to a whole new level of epic, and Razor's Edge is one of JP's most memorable solos.
I choose 8VM. as much as I love ACoS, I feel that 8VM was a better written piece and overall better musicly. I absolutly love the idea behind the whole song . 8VM gives me more chills and goose bumps than ACoS is what it really all boils down too xD
Octavarium for me. IT just sounds more pleasing to my ears. The chords and key changes and instrumentation and melodies and... ururghhghgmmm its just really realllly nice
Octavarium. - nuggetz
Very difficult ... I voted Octavarium because I like how it has such a buildup. Both do, but I definitely feel it more in Octavarium. Lyric-wise ... I don't mind both. though the random name / word thing in Octavarium still throws me off sometimes.
"A Change Of Season" comes off as a very well thought out piece that flows organically and clearly the bi-product of a band in their prime constantly tweaking their work, seeing what works and what doesn't work. Even though some sections contrast with each other they still sound like pieces of a same puzzle and join together very well
"Octavarium" comes off as a clearly piecemeal work whose sections seem to only exist to prolong the song. Just the way the song builds and climaxes is so typical prog metal grandiose it can come across as sterile and unauthentic. Some of the sections are very fun, don't get me wrong, but as a whole it clearly comes across as being not necessarily a rush job but more of a "hey let's make another really long epic" and this is what they came up with in a few weeks. Once it was recorded they were done, no aging needed to see if the song really held up. They did get lucky but it does show how that same process doesn't quite work on later attempts at making long songs.
Quote from: Gysten on October 10, 2011, 08:31:55 AM
A Change of Seasons over Octavarium every day, especially in the winter when the right mood is set, to me it feels like a winter song, but that is not relevant. I think A Change of Seasons is better than Octavarium on every level, the lyrics is far better, the text is really emotional, the instrumental is better, And it have one of my favourite part of music ever. The Crimson Sunset.
That.
ACOS is amazing. *.*
I feel that 8VM is a more cohesive track. ACOS has a lot of good parts but is clunky, with too many musical ideas that make no sense together. The way 8VM is arranged makes it feel like it's supposed to be one long song. Returning musical ideas, a slow build to a climactic ending, lyrics that can be looked at as telling a story... that's why I like 8VM better.
Edit: And how could I forget that keyboard solo after Medicate :hefdaddy
Quote from: orcus116 on October 15, 2011, 01:40:31 PM
"A Change Of Season" comes off as a very well thought out piece that flows organically and clearly the bi-product of a band in their prime constantly tweaking their work, seeing what works and what doesn't work. Even though some sections contrast with each other they still sound like pieces of a same puzzle and join together very well
"Octavarium" comes off as a clearly piecemeal work whose sections seem to only exist to prolong the song. Just the way the song builds and climaxes is so typical prog metal grandiose it can come across as sterile and unauthentic. Some of the sections are very fun, don't get me wrong, but as a whole it clearly comes across as being not necessarily a rush job but more of a "hey let's make another really long epic" and this is what they came up with in a few weeks. Once it was recorded they were done, no aging needed to see if the song really held up. They did get lucky but it does show how that same process doesn't quite work on later attempts at making long songs.
:clap::clap:
:hefdaddy
Quote from: carl320 on October 16, 2011, 10:59:41 AM
And how could I forget that keyboard solo after Medicate :hefdaddy
Speaking of this, could someone tell me which section this keyboard solo actually belongs to? Is it meant to be the end of Medicate or the beginning of Full Circle?
I think it's technically a part of Full Circle but am not certain.
Quote from: Jaffa on October 16, 2011, 11:19:54 AM
Quote from: carl320 on October 16, 2011, 10:59:41 AM
And how could I forget that keyboard solo after Medicate :hefdaddy
Speaking of this, could someone tell me which section this keyboard solo actually belongs to? Is it meant to be the end of Medicate or the beginning of Full Circle?
I'm not sure if there's an official word on this, put I consider it part of Full Circle, since it starts a new section that continues smoothly into Full Circle.
But that's just my own opinion on the matter.
Quote from: BlobVanDam on October 16, 2011, 08:37:16 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on October 16, 2011, 11:19:54 AM
Quote from: carl320 on October 16, 2011, 10:59:41 AM
And how could I forget that keyboard solo after Medicate :hefdaddy
Speaking of this, could someone tell me which section this keyboard solo actually belongs to? Is it meant to be the end of Medicate or the beginning of Full Circle?
I'm not sure if there's an official word on this, put I consider it part of Full Circle, since it starts a new section that continues smoothly into Full Circle.
But that's just my own opinion on the matter.
That's how I categorize it too. I don't believe any official timestamps have been released.
Quote from: Jaffa on October 16, 2011, 11:19:54 AM
Quote from: carl320 on October 16, 2011, 10:59:41 AM
And how could I forget that keyboard solo after Medicate :hefdaddy
Speaking of this, could someone tell me which section this keyboard solo actually belongs to? Is it meant to be the end of Medicate or the beginning of Full Circle?
It's technically the end of Medicate, even though I think most people here would consider it part of Full Circle.
Any evidence? Not trying to argue, just curious because the three before you all said Full Circle.
Quote from: Jaffa on October 16, 2011, 11:19:54 AM
Quote from: carl320 on October 16, 2011, 10:59:41 AM
And how could I forget that keyboard solo after Medicate :hefdaddy
Speaking of this, could someone tell me which section this keyboard solo actually belongs to? Is it meant to be the end of Medicate or the beginning of Full Circle?
Ive never thought about it once and really dont care in the least....lol not to sound like an ass, it sounds worse when typed.
Quote from: Jaffa on October 16, 2011, 10:56:34 PM
Any evidence? Not trying to argue, just curious because the three before you all said Full Circle.
The only evidence I can think of is in Jordan Rudess' "Dream Theater Keyboard Experience" book, which has the solo as a part of Medicate, and Full Circle starting at the end of it at 13:49. I'd say it's pretty strong evidence seeing as Jordan pretty much co-wrote the book, but like most everyone is saying, it does feel like the start of a new section.
A Change of Seasons is structured perfectly and the concept of the song is displayed through every instrument so perfectly where as Octavarium is a bundle of influences and synth that although sounds great, just doesn't compare to A Change of Seasons.
7. Octavarium
3. A Change of Seasons
Quote from: Neuth on October 17, 2011, 05:23:19 AM
The only evidence I can think of is in Jordan Rudess' "Dream Theater Keyboard Experience" book, which has the solo as a part of Medicate, and Full Circle starting at the end of it at 13:49.
Oh, alright. Didn't know about that. Thanks very much for bringing it up!
ACOS. I just think it's a better piece of music. The JP solos are in the David Gilmore category of awesomeness. Don't get me wrong though, 8VM is very well done also but ACOS edges it out by a few notches.
Both are overrated songs. I go with ACOS.