Dream Theater - Midnight Messiah (Official Video)

[ErHaO]

I did not like the first two songs, but I really enjoy this one!

[Glasser]

I like the song. They've done nothing like it before. 

[lovethedrake]

I didn't say anything about "prog."  In fact, that word doesn't appear anywhere in my post.  The word "metal" does.  The vast majority of their songs have "prog" elements.  And the vast majority of their songs have "metal" elements.  They are not mutually exclusive. 

That was literally the entire point of this discussion though.  Dream Theater is a prog metal band.  Of course they are going to have metal in their music, however, there used to be more of a balance in the pre TOT days.

When you listen to the 3 released singles do they make you think of Genesis or Yes?

Dream Theater was Yes/Rush combined with Metallica and that balance has shifted over the years with MP in the band.

I'm not even saying its good or bad.  I'm saying that I understand why fans of classic 70's prog who fell in love with Dream Theater would be a little bummed that they have gone to more full blown metal on most of the post SDOIT Portnoy albums.

[Peter Mc]

I like it.  I like all 3 songs and the chorus in this definitely doesn't sound like any other DT song that I can think of which is nice.

I get the comments about this being pretty straight ahead metal without too much prog but, in my eyes, they've always been a metal band with prog tendencies rather than the other way around.  They've always done some metal songs, some more melodic songs and some crazy technical prog songs.

I feel like the first two singles have progressive moments and this is more of a thrash song (well the chorus is anyway).

I'm cautiously optimistic now about the new album after hearing these 3 songs and hopefully I don't wear them out too much before 7th Feb.

Anyone know when this single will be up on Apple Music?  I always find that to be much better sound quality than YouTube.

[emtee]

Alrighty...home from work with a proper immersive headphone listen.

Killer track. Love every minute of it. James sounds exceptional. Riff kicks my ass. 3 for 3 so far!

[Kocak]

Reading this thread, at times, makes me feel like I am the only one without a preview copy.

[Dedalus]

Wouldn't it just being progressing with the times? The 90s albums sound like 90s metal. The 2000s albums sound like 2000s metal. The 2010s albums sound like 2010s metal. Right?

It's a good hypothesis. It seems that in general the "metal" element is the "strongest" element in the mix of prog metal bands and as metal changes over time, they follow suit. As if metal dictated the main sonic transformations that the bands underwent.

[MinistroRaven]

James sounds exceptional.

As i said on another thread, James is the MVP of this album by a hundred miles. 

[Peter Mc]

I notice people keep talking about TOT as some kind of seismic shift in DT's sound to more of a metal band.  I've never seen it that way.  TOT was always an outlier for me, a very conscious specific attempt to make a balls out, wall to wall metal album.  They followed it with Octavarium, which was not in the same vein at all.

The two Roadrunner records definitely had some modern metal elements to them, I'll admit but, like others have said, they moved with the times.  Images and Words sounds much more like 80's metal, very Iron Maiden influenced in the big operatic melodic choruses.  They then moved more towards Metallica and Megadeth in the post SFAM era.

I think they stopped trying to move with the times and appeal to the metal kids during Mangini's tenure (while still doing lots of metal songs) and lost that audience as they started to feel a bit more nerdy.  I think Portnoy has brought a bit more of that metal energy back into the band where you can actually rock out to these songs whilst still having the virtuosic playing.  I'm enjoying it right now.  I may tire of it in time, as I started to around BC&SL, but I'm enjoying him being back more than I expected to.

[macneil]

I think it's my favourite of the 3 so far! I found it a lot more immediately enjoyable than the previous 2 and I've had it stuck in my head.

Other thoughts:

• The fan service is off the charts
• Feels almost thrashy/power metal-ly more than anything, which I like
• The downside to the more straight forward metal style is that JR feels barely present here 
• If you're not a fan of the metal side of the band, I'm getting the impression this album might disappoint you. I would agree though that the band has been missing this side of them without MP so it's fun to hear it back

[lovethedrake]

I notice people keep talking about TOT as some kind of seismic shift in DT's sound to more of a metal band.  I've never seen it that way.  TOT was always an outlier for me, a very conscious specific attempt to make a balls out, wall to wall metal album.  They followed it with Octavarium, which was not in the same vein at all.

The two Roadrunner records definitely had some modern metal elements to them, I'll admit but, like others have said, they moved with the times.  Images and Words sounds much more like 80's metal, very Iron Maiden influenced in the big operatic melodic choruses.  They then moved more towards Metallica and Megadeth in the post SFAM era.

I think they stopped trying to move with the times and appeal to the metal kids during Mangini's tenure (while still doing lots of metal songs) and lost that audience as they started to feel a bit more nerdy.  I think Portnoy has brought a bit more of that metal energy back into the band where you can actually rock out to these songs whilst still having the virtuosic playing.  I'm enjoying it right now.  I may tire of it in time, as I started to around BC&SL, but I'm enjoying him being back more than I expected to.

I think this is pretty spot on but they also started shifting some of the non metal stuff to more modern bands as well.  Octavarium had Muse/U2/coldplay influence.  Labrie started singing much differently... he sounds so different on the Covers side of BC&SL than he does on the actual album.  Octavarium doesn't sound like genesis or yes or pink floyd aside from some of the title track. 

[wolfking]

Verse riff is killer. 

The chorus is definitely not like anything they have done before and the band really have adopted a full straight ahead metal sound on this album it seems.  Even with all their metal tracks, this one really has the least amount of prog I think I've ever heard from the band.  There were still bits like the pre chorus that are standard DT that we've heard many times before but all in all, this is fine song.  Was impressed with both James and Mike on this one to be honest.

[lovethedrake]

I think it's my favourite of the 3 so far! I found it a lot more immediately enjoyable than the previous 2 and I've had it stuck in my head.

Other thoughts:

• The fan service is off the charts
• Feels almost thrashy/power metal-ly more than anything, which I like
• The downside to the more straight forward metal style is that JR feels barely present here 
• If you're not a fan of the metal side of the band, I'm getting the impression this album might disappoint you. I would agree though that the band has been missing this side of them without MP so it's fun to hear it back

I'm a prog guy and I'm hoping we have the heaviness and aggressiveness that MP brings WITH a more proggy album on the next one after Parasomnia.  That's when they are at their best IMO.  I understand a more metal approach for this one.

My brother has a theory that when there is a major lineup change the album that follows is solid but its the NEXT album where they really honker down and make something truly magical.   

[Jinx]

I'm a prog guy and I'm hoping we have the heaviness and aggressiveness that MP brings WITH a more proggy album on the next one after Parasomnia.  That's when they are at their best IMO.  I understand a more metal approach for this one.

My brother has a theory that when there is a major lineup change the album that follows is solid but its the NEXT album where they really honker down and make something truly magical.   

DT13 (with Managing) wasnt THAT magical. Just sounded like chocolate cake.

[Glasser]

Reading this thread, at times, makes me feel like I am the only one without a preview copy.

You are. 









Kidding! I only heard from a friend who is in the scene. I don't actually have it.

[Dedalus]

The downside to the more straight forward metal style is that JR feels barely present here

This is a relevant side effect. The closer we get to modern metal, the more I feel that keyboardists get a bit lost.

I may be saying something quite inaccurate, since I had already stopped following the band, but isn't something along these lines behind the Haken keyboardist's disagreement with the rest of the band, after increasingly Djent albums where he barely appears?

[Peter Mc]

I think this is pretty spot on but they also started shifting some of the non metal stuff to more modern bands as well.  Octavarium had Muse/U2/coldplay influence.  Labrie started singing much differently... he sounds so different on the Covers side of BC&SL than he does on the actual album.  Octavarium doesn't sound like genesis or yes or pink floyd aside from some of the title track. 

I'm not sure which Dream Theater album does sound like Genesis and Pink Floyd.  The one album where they actually dialled the metal down is the one everybody hates.  I'm not saying this to be contrary, I've just never seen Dream Theater as a Pink Floyd/Genesis type band.  They've sprinkled some of that into their music but (the odd very rare song aside), I've never thought DT sound like those bands.

[Glasser]

I'm a prog guy and I'm hoping we have the heaviness and aggressiveness that MP brings WITH a more proggy album on the next one after Parasomnia.  That's when they are at their best IMO.  I understand a more metal approach for this one.

My brother has a theory that when there is a major lineup change the album that follows is solid but its the NEXT album where they really honker down and make something truly magical.   

Great way to put it actually! Parasomnia is not magical at all. A fun album for sure but the "it" factor is missing. Maybe it is a set up for a double album of insane prog!!!

[Peter Mc]

This is a relevant side effect. The closer we get to modern metal, the more I feel that keyboardists get a bit lost.

I may be saying something quite inaccurate, since I had already stopped following the band, but isn't something along these lines behind the Haken keyboardist's disagreement with the rest of the band, after increasingly Djent albums where he barely appears?

I feel like he was very present on Night Terror.

[Dedalus]

There were still bits like the pre chorus that are standard DT that we've heard many times before

The bridge too. The vocal melody in the bridge even reminds me of something from TA 

[lovethedrake]

I'm not sure which Dream Theater album does sound like Genesis and Pink Floyd.  The one album where they actually dialled the metal down is the one everybody hates.  I'm not saying this to be contrary, I've just never seen Dream Theater as a Pink Floyd/Genesis type band.  They've sprinkled some of that into their music but (the odd very rare song aside), I've never thought DT sound like those bands.

I mean why do you think they are considered a PROG METAL band?  It takes elements of bands like Genesis, Rush, Floyd, Yes etc... and infuses them with metal.  That is why all the prog nerds came to DT in the first place.

It's why they toured with Spocks Beard and Yes. 

Spirit Carries on is as close to a Pink Floyd rip off as I've ever heard.  They even have the soul woman in the background like Dark Side.

Beyond this life has a mid section thats a straight homage to Frank Zappa. 

Even on songs like the Mirror and Lie the keyboards were such a HUGE part of the atmosphere and a major focal point.

The Astonishing was taking the prog to the extreme just like TOT was taking the metal to the extreme.

IMO they are at their best when they balance the two together.   A Change of Seasons is a great example of this. 

I've always thought, from a song structure standpoint that Peter Gabriel era Genesis is the band that pre TOT Dream Theater most resembles.   Both bands always put a huge emphasis on pop melodies, keyboards, and sweeping instrumentals.

,

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I'd imagine more of the fan demand is on the metal side of the house. I'm not saying that's my preference but I've accepted the band's sound has somewhat changed. There's been a healthy mix of both elements lately but yeah, metal does seem to reign supreme at the end of the day.

[bosk1]

Parasomnia is not magical at all.

Yes it is.

but the "it" factor is missing.

No it isn't.

[wolfking]

I'd imagine more of the fan demand is on the metal side of the house. I'm not saying that's my preference but I've accepted the band's sound has somewhat changed. There's been a healthy mix of both elements lately but yeah, metal does seem to reign supreme at the end of the day.

I agree there's been a healthy balance and mix of both styles, until this song.  This is the first time I've listened to a DT song thinking, 'shit, the prog really is missing here,' but again, no issue on that front from me.  The rest of the album is going to be interesting.

[bl5150]

Verse riff is killer. 

The chorus is definitely not like anything they have done before and the band really have adopted a full straight ahead metal sound on this album it seems.  Even with all their metal tracks, this one really has the least amount of prog I think I've ever heard from the band.  There were still bits like the pre chorus that are standard DT that we've heard many times before but all in all, this is fine song.  Was impressed with both James and Mike on this one to be honest.

Agreed- I'm not sure it's the sort of song I want to play over and over but it's certainly the best song for my taste of the 3 released so far.

[wolfking]

Agreed- I'm not sure it's the sort of song I want to play over and over but it's certainly the best song for my taste of the 3 released so far.

It's weird, I liked the song, but I have zero interest in hearing it again.  But I think I just want to wait for the album.

[Glasser]

Yes it is.

No it isn't.

Obviously you have had more listens than I have but nothing is blowing me away yet man. When I heard View the first time I was blown away. But that's just me.

[MidnightSlice]

May have been said, but I really like what Jordan is adding on this song. Give me all the riffs on this one.

[Peter Mc]

I mean why do you think they are considered a PROG METAL band?  It takes elements of bands like Genesis, Rush, Floyd, Yes etc... and infuses them with metal.  That is why all the prog nerds came to DT in the first place.

It's why they toured with Spocks Beard and Yes. 

Spirit Carries on is as close to a Pink Floyd rip off as I've ever heard.  They even have the soul woman in the background like Dark Side.

Beyond this life has a mid section thats a straight homage to Frank Zappa. 

Even on songs like the Mirror and Lie the keyboards were such a HUGE part of the atmosphere and a major focal point.

The Astonishing was taking the prog to the extreme just like TOT was taking the metal to the extreme.

IMO they are at their best when they balance the two together.   A Change of Seasons is a great example of this. 

I've always thought, from a song structure standpoint that Peter Gabriel era Genesis is the band that pre TOT Dream Theater most resembles.   Both bands always put a huge emphasis on pop melodies, keyboards, and sweeping instrumentals.

,

Like I said, they sprinkle influences from prog rock bands into their metal sound, hence prog metal.

I also said that there was the odd song which sounded like those bands.  The Spirit Carries On is absolutely one of those, maybe Space Dye Vest is another but they are few and far between.

I've always seen them as a metal band with prog tendencies rather than a prog band with metal tendencies.  Did tons of old school Pink Floyd and Genesis fans really flock to Dream Theater?  I've always thought most of them would probably turn their nose up at Dream Theater.  I feel like it's more the other way around where DT fans have embraced DT's influences and got into those bands retrospectively.  I've nothing to base that on though other than my own experiences.

I do agree with you though that DT works best for me when they do a balance of both.  TOT is not my favourite DT album and neither is The Astonishing.

Anyway, we're going off topic so I'll leave it there.  We obviously just see the band a little differently but probably like similar DT records.  Also, if you're right, maybe I need to listen to more Peter Gabriel era Genesis!

[lovethedrake]

Like I said, they sprinkle influences from prog rock bands into their metal sound, hence prog metal.

I also said that there was the odd song which sounded like those bands.  The Spirit Carries On is absolutely one of those, maybe Space Dye Vest is another but they are few and far between.

I've always seen them as a metal band with prog tendencies rather than a prog band with metal tendencies.  Did tons of old school Pink Floyd and Genesis fans really flock to Dream Theater?  I've always thought most of them would probably turn their nose up at Dream Theater.  I feel like it's more the other way around where DT fans have embraced DT's influences and got into those bands retrospectively.  I've nothing to base that on though other than my own experiences.

I do agree with you though that DT works best for me when they do a balance of both.  TOT is not my favourite DT album and neither is The Astonishing.

Anyway, we're going off topic so I'll leave it there.  We obviously just see the band a little differently but probably like similar DT records.  Also, if you're right, maybe I need to listen to more Peter Gabriel era Genesis!

Haha definitely getting off topic but in my experience the early DT fans (such as myself) flocked to DT because they were a heavier version of Rush which was basically a heavier version of Yes. 

When Rolling Stones magazine did their "greatest progressive rock album of all time" poll, SFAM won.

I think A TON of metal fans started to gravitate towards DT after they released TOT.  As I am was their first radio hit since Pull Me Under.  I think it was this influx of fandom and popularity that likely kept them on a path of playing to a more metal crowd.

Spocks Beard is a neo prog band... ZERO metal in Spocks Beard, especially when Neal Morse was in the band and I saw them tour together back in 1997.

Anyways, thats my two cents. 

As for Peter Gabriel era Genesis.... yes definitely listen to it!  Genesis is incredible.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I mean why do you think they are considered a PROG METAL band?  It takes elements of bands like Genesis, Rush, Floyd, Yes etc... and infuses them with metal.  That is why all the prog nerds came to DT in the first place.

It's why they toured with Spocks Beard and Yes. 

Spirit Carries on is as close to a Pink Floyd rip off as I've ever heard.  They even have the soul woman in the background like Dark Side.

Beyond this life has a mid section thats a straight homage to Frank Zappa. 

Even on songs like the Mirror and Lie the keyboards were such a HUGE part of the atmosphere and a major focal point.

The Astonishing was taking the prog to the extreme just like TOT was taking the metal to the extreme.

IMO they are at their best when they balance the two together.  A Change of Seasons is a great example of this. 

I've always thought, from a song structure standpoint that Peter Gabriel era Genesis is the band that pre TOT Dream Theater most resembles.  Both bands always put a huge emphasis on pop melodies, keyboards, and sweeping instrumentals.

,

Spock's Beard: which album(s) to get me started?

You just reminded me I've been meaning to give them a spin. 

[Dedalus]

Anyway, we're going off topic so I'll leave it there.

But it's been a very interesting discussion. Perhaps it's worth continuing in a proper thread.

Spock's Beard: which album(s) to get me started?

The Light, start at the beginning.

[lovethedrake]

Spock's Beard: which album(s) to get me started?

You just reminded me I've been meaning to give them a spin. 

Listen to the song "The Light".  Its an amazing prog epic, also "The Doorway" is awesome. 

I would rate the albums like this in order of release...

1995 - The Light - B (title track incredible)

1996 - Beware of Darkness - B (Doorway awesome)

1998 - Kindness of Strangers - B+

1999 - Day for Night - A+ (but im majorly in the minority here)

2000 - V - A and probably fan favorite

2001 - Snow - C - disappointing concept album

Then Morse leaves and its not the same but there is some good stuff on Noise Floor and Oblivion Particle.

[Dedalus]

2001 - Snow - C - disappointing concept album

Don't pay attention to it, it's a great record (Mr. Mod, it's their fault for derailing the thread  )

[lovethedrake]

Don't pay attention to it, it's a great record (Mr. Mod, it's their fault for derailing the thread  )

Haha I love Morse era Spock's Beard so I'm fine with anybody dapping any of their albums up.   It just didn't work for me... the story took too much of a focus over the music.   

But I'm fully in support of people loving Snow.