Songs for Next Tour / What Can James Sing?

[Samsara]

I think the "Raw Dog" fanclub members need to be identified so we can...salute them. 

Honestly, I think I've listened to it twice. I don't even remember what it sounds like.

[gzarruk]

The next tour setlist should be:

- Raw Dog
- The Astonishing (full album)
- You Not Me (Encore)

[pg1067]

With all apologies to the three Raw Dog cheerleaders in the world, there is practically zero chance of that happening.  And I think we all know that.  But that being said...

...I wouldn't at all mind it being on tape either as their pre-intro tape or during intermission (if they have one).  That would actually be kinda cool without detracting from the show if they played it and 2 people per show in the audience (being generous) recognizing it.

Seriously...

MP:  Hey guys...I have a great idea!  How about we open the show with a song that 99% of the audience won't recognize?!

[Setlist Scotty]

The next tour setlist should be:

- Raw Dog
- The Astonishing (full album)
- You Not Me (Encore)

I know that's a joke, even without the green type, but I would seriously go see that, just because I like RD, I've never seen YNM live and I'm sure MP would put an interesting spin on TA.

MP:  Hey guys...I have a great idea!  How about we open the show with a song that 99% of the audience won't recognize?!

I can't see it being used to open any of their shows, but I *can* imagine it being included in the setlist a handful of times, assuming MP's in control of the setlist and they go back to some form of rotating setlists.

[Kram]

The next tour setlist should be:

- Raw Dog
- The Astonishing (full album)
- You Not Me (Encore)

I know that's a joke, even without the green type, but I would seriously go see that, just because I like RD, I've never seen YNM live and I'm sure MP would put an interesting spin on TA.

MP:  Hey guys...I have a great idea!  How about we open the show with a song that 99% of the audience won't recognize?!

I can't see it being used to open any of their shows, but I *can* imagine it being included in the setlist a handful of times, assuming MP's in control of the setlist and they go back to some form of rotating setlists.

Or included in an updated version of Instrumedley?  Could even throw in parts of Enigma Machine and other Mangini snippets..

[wolfking]

MP:  Hey guys...I have a great idea!  How about we open the show with a song that 99% of the audience won't recognize?!

I can't see it being used to open any of their shows, but I *can* imagine it being included in the setlist a handful of times, assuming MP's in control of the setlist and they go back to some form of rotating setlists.

No way they are ever playing Raw Dog live.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

The opener would be the single from the next album I would imagine, then followed by a nostalgic piece.

[Madman Shepherd]

The next tour setlist should be:

- Raw Dog
- The Astonishing (full album)
- You Not Me (Encore)

I would so be there. I'd just have to find something to do for two hours in between the beginning and end of the show.

[gzarruk]

The next tour setlist should be:

- Raw Dog
- The Astonishing (full album)
- You Not Me (Encore)

I would so be there. I'd just have to find something to do for two hours in between the beginning and end of the show.

[crystalstars17]

Best setlist for JLB:

Ytse Jam
Eve
Erotomania
Hell's Kitchen
Overture 1928
The Dance Of Eternity
Overture (Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence)
Stream of Consciousness
False Awakening Suite
Enigma Machine
Dystopian Overture

Oh HA HA HA. 

Like, what if there's someone better than Jaime Vendera

This. Thank you. I didn't want to say this because I don't know much of anything about him, except that I've read before that his methods are at times controversial (with the disclaimer that I've forgotten the source as it was a while ago, so who knows if it's true). But it's something that has often crossed my mind. What he actually needs is a teacher/coach who is also a vocal therapist. They're out there. These are specifically the people who help singers through major transitions and vocal injuries. This is what he needs to seek out now.

[Animal]

Like, what if there's someone better than Jaime Vendera

This. Thank you. I didn't want to say this because I don't know much of anything about him, except that I've read before that his methods are at times controversial (with the disclaimer that I've forgotten the source as it was a while ago, so who knows if it's true). But it's something that has often crossed my mind. What he actually needs is a teacher/coach who is also a vocal therapist. They're out there. These are specifically the people who help singers through major transitions and vocal injuries. This is what he needs to seek out now.

I'd bet my monthly salary there is someone better. I am a bit skeptical about celebrity coaches and teachers of any kind. You are much more likely to win celebrity clients over with a mix of quick fixes, telling them what they want to hear and, most importantly, refraining from telling them they should not do something they really want to do but it is bad for them. I mean, who knows who was Pavarotti's voice teacher? In my experience, people who are a real deal tend to keep a low profile (valid for teaching/coaching/mentoring, not sure how it applies to other domains).

[Samsara]

Well, that's not really fair, as in this day and age, you need to market yourself. If you're not marketing yourself, you're losing out. So, the fact this guy is marketing doesn't bother me.

What does bother me is JLB's testimonial on his website...talking about how good his last tour was. And I'm not sure which tour JLB is referring to, but I saw the View tour, and...let's just say, I wasn't happy with the vocal performance in comparison to the show I saw in 2019, which was really good. Bad days happen, but there have been a lot of online complaints on this forum about the Dream Sonic tour and the View tour. And if this testimonial is referring to either of those tours... 

JLB is going to get things figured out. I believe that. But if the last two tours are the result of working with Jaime Vendera, at least from my untrained ear's perspective, I'm not hearing improvement. I'm hearing struggle and regression. My hope is he kills it in the studio and comes out firing on the next tour. 

[Setlist Scotty]

What does bother me is JLB's testimonial on his website...talking about how good his last tour was. And I'm not sure which tour JLB is referring to, but I saw the View tour, and...let's just say, I wasn't happy with the vocal performance in comparison to the show I saw in 2019, which was really good. Bad days happen, but there have been a lot of online complaints on this forum about the Dream Sonic tour and the View tour. And if this testimonial is referring to either of those tours... 

Just took a cursory look at his website and didn't see any quotes from him. Got a direct URL? Not doubting you, but I'm curious, because you can always use the Wayback machine to see how long that quote has been there to help determine if it's a recent quote or not. 

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

^ I also didn't see that. If he thinks he crushed it on the last two tours then I think that says something about what we will get next time...not ideal.

[wolfking]

Well, that's not really fair, as in this day and age, you need to market yourself. If you're not marketing yourself, you're losing out. So, the fact this guy is marketing doesn't bother me.

What does bother me is JLB's testimonial on his website...talking about how good his last tour was. And I'm not sure which tour JLB is referring to, but I saw the View tour, and...let's just say, I wasn't happy with the vocal performance in comparison to the show I saw in 2019, which was really good. Bad days happen, but there have been a lot of online complaints on this forum about the Dream Sonic tour and the View tour. And if this testimonial is referring to either of those tours... 

JLB is going to get things figured out. I believe that. But if the last two tours are the result of working with Jaime Vendera, at least from my untrained ear's perspective, I'm not hearing improvement. I'm hearing struggle and regression. My hope is he kills it in the studio and comes out firing on the next tour. 

He seriously did this?

[wolfking]

^ I also didn't see that. If he thinks he crushed it on the last two tours then I think that says something about what we will get next time...not ideal.

I'm sure MP will set him straight on thinking that. 

[nikatapi]

The testimonial is on Jamie's website, not James'.
https://jaimevendera.com/


It could be quite older, i think (if i'm not mistaken) James had started working with Jamie around the SC days, and i think in fact he was quite decent on both SC and the Black Clouds tours.

[wolfking]

Gotta be from back then.  A testimonial like that the coach would be put up ASAP after working with someone of James' caliber.

[Setlist Scotty]

Gotta be from back then.  A testimonial like that the coach would be put up ASAP after working with someone of James' caliber.

It is. I used the Wayback Machine, and the earliest time that quote appeared on his website (under "Testimonials" - not the main page) was April 2011. The previous backup from the Wayback Machine was October 2010 and shows a different quote. So the tour JL is referring to is probably the 2009-10 tour, although it could have been from the previous tour, as well. But it's definitely not from any of the MM-era tours.

[Lonk]

Call me crazy, but I would love to see Raw Dog AND Viper King live.

[hefdaddy42]

Call me crazy, but I would love to see Raw Dog AND Viper King live.

You're crazy!

[nikatapi]

Gotta be from back then.  A testimonial like that the coach would be put up ASAP after working with someone of James' caliber.

It is. I used the Wayback Machine, and the earliest time that quote appeared on his website (under "Testimonials" - not the main page) was April 2011. The previous backup from the Wayback Machine was October 2010 and shows a different quote. So the tour JL is referring to is probably the 2009-10 tour, although it could have been from the previous tour, as well. But it's definitely not from any of the MM-era tours.

Sounds about right. And my recollections from most of the bootlegs i've heard from this tour, is that it was probably one of his strongest in the more recent years, in terms of pitch and overall stability

Just an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqnEi42XUm4

[crystalstars17]

It could be quite older, i think (if i'm not mistaken) James had started working with Jamie around the SC days, and i think in fact he was quite decent on both SC and the Black Clouds tours.

Does anyone know who he was working with around the time of Score? That's what I consider his best vocals ever. His technique was stellar at that time and the way he was singing was right in the pocket for his voice. That's the James who made me a fan. He sang then with unearthly beauty and power.

[Setlist Scotty]

It could be quite older, i think (if i'm not mistaken) James had started working with Jamie around the SC days, and i think in fact he was quite decent on both SC and the Black Clouds tours.

Does anyone know who he was working with around the time of Score? That's what I consider his best vocals ever. His technique was stellar at that time and the way he was singing was right in the pocket for his voice. That's the James who made me a fan. He sang then with unearthly beauty and power.

Based on this interview from April 2005, it looks like he was working with Victoria Thompson around that time period.
https://web.archive.org/web/20050506182455/https://www.dprp.net/specials/labrie0405/index.php

[Sycsa]

It could be quite older, i think (if i'm not mistaken) James had started working with Jamie around the SC days, and i think in fact he was quite decent on both SC and the Black Clouds tours.

Does anyone know who he was working with around the time of Score? That's what I consider his best vocals ever. His technique was stellar at that time and the way he was singing was right in the pocket for his voice. That's the James who made me a fan. He sang then with unearthly beauty and power.

Based on this interview from April 2005, it looks like he was working with Victoria Thompson around that time period.
https://web.archive.org/web/20050506182455/https://www.dprp.net/specials/labrie0405/index.php

He should get back to her. Unless she's... gone forever.   

[WilliamMunny]

It could be quite older, i think (if i'm not mistaken) James had started working with Jamie around the SC days, and i think in fact he was quite decent on both SC and the Black Clouds tours.

Does anyone know who he was working with around the time of Score? That's what I consider his best vocals ever. His technique was stellar at that time and the way he was singing was right in the pocket for his voice. That's the James who made me a fan. He sang then with unearthly beauty and power.

He was also twenty years younger.

Crystal, you would know far better than me, but doesn't age play a role in this?

From my perspective, time would be better spent on crafting new, lower, and far more sustainable melodies for the songs rather than trying to regain his former glory. Ray Alder is constantly cited in this regard, and I think he is a very good benchmark for what James should try to achieve.

But, again, I will defer to your opinion on this, Crystal!

[Mladen]

Does anyone know who he was working with around the time of Score? That's what I consider his best vocals ever. His technique was stellar at that time and the way he was singing was right in the pocket for his voice. That's the James who made me a fan. He sang then with unearthly beauty and power.

He was also twenty years younger.

He was ten years younger than that in 1995, and yet he sounds better on Score, in my opinion. I'm also curious who his vocal coach was during the Octavarium era.

[gzarruk]

Didn't MP confirm at some point that the vocals on Score were also touched up? Not trying to say James didn't have an amazing performance that day, but he wasn't as *perfect* as the recording suggests.

[crystalstars17]

It could be quite older, i think (if i'm not mistaken) James had started working with Jamie around the SC days, and i think in fact he was quite decent on both SC and the Black Clouds tours.

Does anyone know who he was working with around the time of Score? That's what I consider his best vocals ever. His technique was stellar at that time and the way he was singing was right in the pocket for his voice. That's the James who made me a fan. He sang then with unearthly beauty and power.

He was also twenty years younger.

Crystal, you would know far better than me, but doesn't age play a role in this?

From my perspective, time would be better spent on crafting new, lower, and far more sustainable melodies for the songs rather than trying to regain his former glory. Ray Alder is constantly cited in this regard, and I think he is a very good benchmark for what James should try to achieve.

But, again, I will defer to your opinion on this, Crystal!

Age does enter in, but not in the way that some think. The vocal cords can become thicker and less flexible with age, which can allow the singer to have (in some cases, it depends on the person) a few lower notes or a richer, fuller sound (for example compare Michael Kiske in the last few years vs him in 1987), but loss of range isn't inevitable. It's good, healthy technique that keeps (again, for example) Metropolitan Opera singers performing into their 70's. Sure, they may not have that same easy access to the very tippity-top, but they should still have facility with the greater part of their range as well as, yes, a few 'money notes'. As the voice changes with age, what any singer needs is regular coaching and reworking of their technique as they navigate the changes in the body. Hopefully James does this, and while he reworks his technique yes, singing in middle range for a while may be best for the health of his voice.

But age doesn't mean his voice has "gotten lower". A tenor doesn't become a baritone, he only becomes an older tenor. So the less-flexible vocal cords of middle age will require him to access his top range differently. A good technical teacher  or vocal therapist can 100% help him with that. Does it mean he should be singing the high F# in Learning to Live every night on tour? Probably not the best choice. I gave the example in the past of coloratura soprano Natalie Dessay, who sang an A6 in the Doll Song from The Tales of Hoffman and countless Queens of the Night in her earlier career and later on was singing things like Violetta in La Traviata (which only goes to the D above high C) - it's still very much a coloratura soprano role, but for a 'heavier' coloratura voice than the Doll which was her claim to fame.

I really do hope that James does the right thing for himself and his career by either going back to his old coach (if that's possible) or else finding someone else who can help him regain flexibility and ease through his register breaks which can also become problematic with age (again, because the thickening of the cords/reduced flexibility). Just like any other muscle group in the body, this flexibility can be maintained and kept in shape for the long haul with proper care.

[Setlist Scotty]

Crystal, not that he's gonna see this thread, nor that anyone here is gonna pass the info on to him or the band in general, but just out of curiosity, are there any specific people that you can think of that might be a good fit to help JL?

[Lonk]

Call me crazy, but I would love to see Raw Dog AND Viper King live.

You're crazy!

Exactly what I asked for, Thank you! 

[crystalstars17]

Crystal, not that he's gonna see this thread, nor that anyone here is gonna pass the info on to him or the band in general, but just out of curiosity, are there any specific people that you can think of that might be a good fit to help JL?

Unfortunately no one specific, but I would like to see him go back to a teacher that has a solid bel canto background and hopefully also experience with vocal therapy. He needs sound, healthy, tried-and-true techniques to balance his registers and regain flexibility, not blowing bubbles through straws    He doesn't need tricks that are essentially a placebo. He needs real, healthy solutions.

[gzarruk]

Call me crazy, but I would love to see Raw Dog AND Viper King live.

You're crazy!

Exactly what I asked for, Thank you! 

You're probably crazy for this, but I pretty much agree with you

[bosk1]

It could be quite older, i think (if i'm not mistaken) James had started working with Jamie around the SC days, and i think in fact he was quite decent on both SC and the Black Clouds tours.

Does anyone know who he was working with around the time of Score? That's what I consider his best vocals ever. His technique was stellar at that time and the way he was singing was right in the pocket for his voice. That's the James who made me a fan. He sang then with unearthly beauty and power.

He was also twenty years younger.

Crystal, you would know far better than me, but doesn't age play a role in this?

From my perspective, time would be better spent on crafting new, lower, and far more sustainable melodies for the songs rather than trying to regain his former glory. Ray Alder is constantly cited in this regard, and I think he is a very good benchmark for what James should try to achieve.

But, again, I will defer to your opinion on this, Crystal!

Age does enter in, but not in the way that some think. The vocal cords can become thicker and less flexible with age, which can allow the singer to have (in some cases, it depends on the person) a few lower notes or a richer, fuller sound (for example compare Michael Kiske in the last few years vs him in 1987), but loss of range isn't inevitable. It's good, healthy technique that keeps (again, for example) Metropolitan Opera singers performing into their 70's. Sure, they may not have that same easy access to the very tippity-top, but they should still have facility with the greater part of their range as well as, yes, a few 'money notes'. As the voice changes with age, what any singer needs is regular coaching and reworking of their technique as they navigate the changes in the body. Hopefully James does this, and while he reworks his technique yes, singing in middle range for a while may be best for the health of his voice.

But age doesn't mean his voice has "gotten lower". A tenor doesn't become a baritone, he only becomes an older tenor. So the less-flexible vocal cords of middle age will require him to access his top range differently. A good technical teacher  or vocal therapist can 100% help him with that. Does it mean he should be singing the high F# in Learning to Live every night on tour? Probably not the best choice. I gave the example in the past of coloratura soprano Natalie Dessay, who sang an A6 in the Doll Song from The Tales of Hoffman and countless Queens of the Night in her earlier career and later on was singing things like Violetta in La Traviata (which only goes to the D above high C) - it's still very much a coloratura soprano role, but for a 'heavier' coloratura voice than the Doll which was her claim to fame.

I really do hope that James does the right thing for himself and his career by either going back to his old coach (if that's possible) or else finding someone else who can help him regain flexibility and ease through his register breaks which can also become problematic with age (again, because the thickening of the cords/reduced flexibility). Just like any other muscle group in the body, this flexibility can be maintained and kept in shape for the long haul with proper care.

I mostly agree with all of that.  And I say "mostly" just in the following regard:

From my experience and observation, a lot of singers do lose a little bit of range due to age (although there are likely other factors as well), but it's not a lot.  As you said, they generally pick up a note or two down low, but also lose a bit at the very top (and maybe struggle a bit right in the middle at those transition spots).  But as you point out, with proper training and technique, and with good habits, that can be minimal.

Also, I think the difference for rock/pop singers is generally more pronounced than for more classically based singers like what you are referencing.  There might be a lot of factors that go into that, such as the type of singing required, the "rock & roll lifestyle," the type of tour and performance schedules rock/pop singers are subjected to, etc.  But I think there is a difference.

But the things I mention don't take much away from what you said at all.  I think you are spot on.  But a lot of trainers and coaches do indeed make the arguments I have made, and I think there is some validity to them.

And I love your point about age also making the voice fully and warmer.  (again, assuming good habits and good training and technique)  I think Michael Sweet is a great example of that.  I liked and appreciated him in the '80s.  But at the same time, there was only so much of him that I could take.  His upper range could be spectacular.  But it could also just be grating.  To me, he really hit his stride vocally around the 2010 timeframe.  He still had great range, but there was also this richer, fuller quality to his voice that really sold his singing a lot more, IMO.  But lots of other great examples we could point to as well.

[gzarruk]

And I love your point about age also making the voice fully and warmer.  (again, assuming good habits and good training and technique)  I think Michael Sweet is a great example of that.  I liked and appreciated him in the '80s.  But at the same time, there was only so much of him that I could take.  His upper range could be spectacular.  But it could also just be grating.  To me, he really hit his stride vocally around the 2010 timeframe.  He still had great range, but there was also this richer, fuller quality to his voice that really sold his singing a lot more, IMO.  But lots of other great examples we could point to as well.

Are you saying he hit the Sweet spot?