Now that the MM era is finished, how would you rank those five albums?

[KevShmev]

DT is in MP's DNA, and vice versa. DT could never have existed without him.

MM was a salaried employee.

Actually, Dream Theater did exist without him, for 13 years, and mostly did just fine.  That is not to say that he was not an important member during his original run, because he absolutely was, but the Mangini era showed that he was not irreplaceable (regardless of what you think of that run).

[gborland]

I've seen this before, but is any of it confirmed? Was it ever said by anyone in the band that he was never actually in the band?

You do realise there's no single definition of what it means to be "in" a band, right? I know you're not that naïve.

You can be "in" a band when it comes to songwriting, recording, touring, promo cycles, etc, as a salaried employee without being a shareholder/owner.

[gborland]

Actually, Dream Theater did exist without him, for 13 years, and mostly did just fine.

OK, "exist" was poor word choice. DT could never have been created without him. He was absolutely fundamental to building the band and inspiring its sound in a way that MM never could be. This is not a slight against MM; it's simply a statement of fact.

[KevShmev]

Crystal, really loving your posts. You are the extremely rare fan here that became a fan in the MM Era, which musically, was excellent by and large. I can totally see being all WTF at people slobbering over themselves with the return of MP. Please keep posting. I think your POV is important.

Agreed.  While it's perfectly understandable that many fans, especially the ones who have been fans since the 90s or 00s, are excited about the return of Mike Portnoy, it should go without saying that there are fans who made their bones with the band in the last 10 years or so, and they might not be overly thrilled with a change like this throwing a monkey wrench into what their favorite version of Dream Theater is and was.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I think View has a very strong identity. John described it as dark and heavy and it very much delivers that. It's a very cohesive record. Even ADTOE is very cohesive even if its identity is tied to I&W. Only one track there is a bit of an odd ball (BMU).

I do wonder about how much of it is simply marketing. Like you said, View absolutely has an identity. It also has a bit of a theme running through it of people pushing themselves to accomplish incredible things. But the band maybe mentioned it once or twice and then moved on, whereas Portnoy would have really harped on it, being the great salesman that he is.

[DT05]

DT is in MP's DNA, and vice versa. DT could never have existed without him.

MM was a salaried employee.

The truth tends to make people mad but here it is in all its plainness. If you like Mangini era DT but never listen to Portnoy, you don't like Dream Theater. Sorry to have to burst your bubbles!

[crystalstars17]

You can be "in" a band when it comes to songwriting, recording, touring, promo cycles, etc, as a salaried employee without being a shareholder/owner.

That's exactly what I mean. We do not have (and may never have, because it's their business) any concrete confirmation that he wasn't a full-fledged member in every sense. So repeating the notion that he never was as a way of minimizing his importance holds absolutely zero water.

[crystalstars17]

The truth tends to make people mad but here it is in all its plainness. If you like Mangini era DT but never listen to Portnoy, you don't like Dream Theater. Sorry to have to burst your bubbles!

Um no, sorry to burst yours. But the band who made the incredible ADTOE, the wonderful DoT, and the insanely beautiful AVFTTOTW was absolutely no one other than DT. And whether you acknowledge it or not, that's the band that I love.

[gborland]

We do not have (and may never have, because it's their business) any concrete confirmation that he wasn't a full-fledged member in every sense.

Not concrete confirmation, but I think we can infer it to an extent from the difference between MP's departure which involved a lot of protracted legal work to disentangle him from the business and MM's departure which seems to have been relatively swift and uncomplicated.

Also during the drummer auditions I'm sure I remember at least one of the drummers (was it Derek Roddy?) saying he didn't want the gig anyway because the salary [sic] on offer was too low and he could make more money farming snakes or something.

[crystalstars17]

Agreed.  While it's perfectly understandable that many fans, especially the ones who have been fans since the 90s or 00s, are excited about the return of Mike Portnoy, it should go without saying that there are fans who made their bones with the band in the last 10 years or so, and they might not be overly thrilled with a change like this throwing a monkey wrench into what their favorite version of Dream Theater is and was.

This 💯  And I'm not the only one by far, but I speak for this cohort here.

[Schurftkut]

yeah but MM was a salaried employee, just like MP probably is now. There was some issue a few yrs back where DT's financials weren't that great and they couldn't give MM his 100k bonus he was supposed to get, so they did a I&W tour right after to be able to pay him. MP coming back surely means a shitton more sales, so i guess he'll be compensated fairly for that.

[crystalstars17]

Not concrete confirmation, but I think we can infer it to an extent from the difference between MP's departure which involved a lot of protracted legal work to disentangle him from the business and MM's departure which seems to have been relatively swift and uncomplicated.

My point is that we literally don't know. So why fuel the "hired gun Mangini" myth when we actually don't know? It's only giving more for the trolls to chew on, we don't need it.

Maybe it comes from my working in a research-related field now but sometimes the truest answer at a given time is simply "we don't know yet". Sometimes it's never. And that's still the right answer. So, disclaimer, this is not about me being right, or you, or anyone. It's just that the correct answer is we don't know. So why perpetuate the myth?

[efx]

The truth tends to make people mad but here it is in all its plainness. If you like Mangini era DT but never listen to Portnoy, you don't like Dream Theater. Sorry to have to burst your bubbles!

This is so silly. Thise five MM records are Dream Theater records and as valid as anything. Might not be your cup of tea but that's an entire separate thing.

[TAC]

The truth tends to make people mad but here it is in all its plainness. If you like Mangini era DT but never listen to Portnoy, you don't like Dream Theater. Sorry to have to burst your bubbles!

So, is the same true in reverse?

[Lonk]

yeah but MM was a salaried employee, just like MP probably is now. There was some issue a few yrs back where DT's financials weren't that great and they couldn't give MM his 100k bonus he was supposed to get, so they did a I&W tour right after to be able to pay him. MP coming back surely means a shitton more sales, so i guess he'll be compensated fairly for that.

I think I need a source for this.

[Trav]

I think I need a source for this.

Same. I could definitely see Mangini being paid as an employee and not partner in the brand. But Portnoy? No. More than likely he has always had part ownership, even when he wasn't in the band. Like with Journey. Steve Perry has been out since the 90s but he still makes money off their tours, merchandise and releases. Anything attached to the name.

[Setlist Scotty]

Lots of fans ranking some - not all - MM albums ahead of his last 3 and many rankings have SC, 8VM, and/or BCSL in the bottom half.

If he has this outsized influence on the songwriting such that he is given credit when the final product is great does he not also get the blame if albums are viewed relatively unfavorably?

Just because a certain part of the fan base views the last 2 albums (I would debate including 8v) less favorably does not mean that they aren't good albums. While I would rate SC towards the bottom, it's still a decent album to me. And when it comes to BCaSL, I rank it within the top 1/3 of their catalog. And yes, there are plenty of others who feel the same way about both albums, even if in the minority. The same could be said for the MM-era albums compared to the MP-era albums.

I do give credit to MP for actually realizing/seeing it himself. He could feel it. He felt they needed some sort of shake up creatively.

MP is on the record saying his departure from the band back in the day wasn't for creative reasons. I'm confident he was and still is proud of both SC and BCSL. After all, they're both perfectly fine albums. 

Exactly. 

Even ADTOE is very cohesive even if its identity is tied to I&W.

They sound nothing alike!

Caleb, read this to educate yourself on the comparison which has also been discussed here ad nauseam:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/10164438464290184/?paipv=0&eav=AfZc_YNtyxU5NCz6GUfIjdo4ZmEvoHd3qu8PeUs73ByNwMwjBbsII4LIN_mO8BLwomE&_rdr

DT is in MP's DNA, and vice versa. DT could never have existed without him.

Graham, in all fairness, whether MM was a salaried employee or not does not negate him putting his heart and soul into the band. I'd argue that he put just as much into the band as anyone else and perhaps more in an effort to prove himself, given the limitations he had as the "new" guy even if he had a 13 year tenure by the end.

Wow.

I've seen this before, but is any of it confirmed? Was it ever said by anyone in the band that he was never actually in the band?

I just think this is hearsay that is used to minimize MM's place in the history of the band. It's yet another subtle form of erasure.

Crystal, from what I understand (based mostly if not completely on what has been said publicly), only the original members of the band were part of the corporation, and I think this is the case for most bands that exist. So JL and JR have never been part of the corporation as I understand it, nor Derek nor MM, even though all of them are/were official members of the band. Of course, that could have changed when MP left; I could see JP and JM bringing JL and JR into the corporation since MP left the band and didn't remain part of the corportation, but it's hard to say. And now that MP's back, it's hard to say whether he would become a part of the corporation again or not.

Just for reference, during the writing of The Wall, Roger Waters fired Richard Wright from the band, and so Richard was no longer part of the corporation. Yet he ended up still performing with the band when they did the shows in support of The Wall and at least from a fan view point, was still considered part of the band. Ironically enough, because he wasn't part of the corporation but only a salaried employee, he was the only one to make money from that tour; the other three guys lost money.

Agreed.  While it's perfectly understandable that many fans, especially the ones who have been fans since the 90s or 00s, are excited about the return of Mike Portnoy, it should go without saying that there are fans who made their bones with the band in the last 10 years or so, and they might not be overly thrilled with a change like this throwing a monkey wrench into what their favorite version of Dream Theater is and was.

While it's hard for someone like myself to view things from Crystal's perspective being a newer fan, I think most of us old school fans (at least here) recognize that this lineup change is just as jarring as it was for us back in 2010.

Not concrete confirmation, but I think we can infer it to an extent from the difference between MP's departure which involved a lot of protracted legal work to disentangle him from the business and MM's departure which seems to have been relatively swift and uncomplicated.

Also during the drummer auditions I'm sure I remember at least one of the drummers (was it Derek Roddy?) saying he didn't want the gig anyway because the salary [sic] on offer was too low and he could make more money farming snakes or something.

Correct.

And let's not forget that just because someone is a "salaried employee" doesn't mean that they aren't involved or have a say in various behind-the-scenes matters, which I'm sure JL, JR and MM all did. After all it was only JP and JM that were willing to go on tour at the end of 2021 when tour dates were first booked, and so the band postponed the tour until 2022. There is a difference between being an official band member (even though a salaried employee) and just a session/touring member, otherwise it wouldn't have made a difference to promote Derek to being an official band member in February 1995 after having toured with the band for 4 months.

yeah but MM was a salaried employee, just like MP probably is now. There was some issue a few yrs back where DT's financials weren't that great and they couldn't give MM his 100k bonus he was supposed to get, so they did a I&W tour right after to be able to pay him. MP coming back surely means a shitton more sales, so i guess he'll be compensated fairly for that.

Interesting. Never heard about this. Where did you get this info? Got a link?

[TAC]

Scotty, your inbox is full!!!

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I do wonder about how much of it is simply marketing. Like you said, View absolutely has an identity. It also has a bit of a theme running through it of people pushing themselves to accomplish incredible things. But the band maybe mentioned it once or twice and then moved on, whereas Portnoy would have really harped on it, being the great salesman that he is.

I don't think it's marketing. I think the album really is dark and heavy. That is always the way I heard it but I will take a look at some of the guitar parts later to see if it aligns with how I've been feeling the songs. Obviously TT is a break from that theme but still think the overall picture holds. As a contrast, I don't think I ever interpreted ADTOE as dark and heavy, though it is certainly heavy as is most DT!

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

yeah but MM was a salaried employee, just like MP probably is now. There was some issue a few yrs back where DT's financials weren't that great and they couldn't give MM his 100k bonus he was supposed to get, so they did a I&W tour right after to be able to pay him. MP coming back surely means a shitton more sales, so i guess he'll be compensated fairly for that.

How do you know this? I mean, it certainly fits my internal narrative about the whole situation but I am still curious as to how you've come to that view.

[CraftyCaleb2483]

The truth tends to make people mad but here it is in all its plainness. If you like Mangini era DT but never listen to Portnoy, you don't like Dream Theater. Sorry to have to burst your bubbles!

Eh no, that's not how it works

[CraftyCaleb2483]

Caleb, read this to educate yourself on the comparison which has also been discussed here ad nauseam:

Thanks for that, I can see now how they are related, but I have never made that connection due to I&W being second best for me, and ADTOE being my least favourite, so to me they are incomparable

[Setlist Scotty]

Scotty, your inbox is full!!!

I cleared up some space.   

[Jamesman42]

One aspect where Portnoy helped a lot in the past is in terms of establishing a concept or overarching theme for each record. When I think of albums like Train of Thought or Octavarium, those records have very strong identities. I think their albums have maybe lost that a little bit over time, starting with Systematic Chaos (when Portnoy was obviously still in the band). The glaring exception is The Astonishing, IMO.

So with regards to the next album, I do wonder if Portnoy will bring a cool concept to the table.

The MM albums have felt more like a collection of songs rather than something on theme, barring The Astonishing. Not that that's a bad thing, but that might be what really separates the feel of the MP and MM eras. At least, the run from SFAM through 8VM had a theme going. SC and BCSL feel looser on the theme idea.

[TAC]

The MM albums have felt more like a collection of songs rather than something on theme, barring The Astonishing. Not that that's a bad thing, but that might be what really separates the feel of the MP and MM eras. At least, the run from SFAM through 8VM had a theme going. SC and BCSL feel looser on the theme idea.

I don't think that's an unreasonable observation.

Doesn't make the albums better, but I appreciate you putting into words how the albums feel.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

What is overarching theme or identity of SC and BCSL?

[TAC]

What is overarching theme or identity of SC and BCSL?

I don't think there was one on SC. They really just went in and winged it. For BC&SL, I believe they wanted to make an album full of epics.

[Setlist Scotty]

What is overarching theme or identity of SC and BCSL?

There wasn't a grand scheme like there had been for SFaM, ToT or 8v (or SDoIT before they went in a different direction), but the goal for SC musically was for the album to have the balls and chunk of ToT but more light and shade than ToT. BCaSL continued in that same musical direction, but instead of the songs generally following one style, the songs on BCaSL had more variation within the songs (hence why they on average were longer). Lyrically, JP's lyrics were fictional monster lyrics on SC, and on BCaSL were more based on unusual real life events that he experienced (aside from ARoP). MP's lyrics were based on real life perspectives as always and JL's lyrics on SC were political which he's done before.

[TAC]

Distance Over Time is the MM Era's Systematic Chaos.

[Setlist Scotty]

Distance Over Time is the MM Era's Systematic Chaos.

Yeah, I can see that, although I like d/t better! 

[TAC]

Yeah, I can see that, although I like d/t better! 

They feel similar, as there's nothing really tying the songs together, and both have peaks and valleys, making each fairly inconsistent.

Gun to my head, I'm probably taking SC, but I rank them pretty evenly.

[pg1067]

Crystal, from what I understand (based mostly if not completely on what has been said publicly), only the original members of the band were part of the corporation, and I think this is the case for most bands that exist. So JL and JR have never been part of the corporation as I understand it, nor Derek nor MM, even though all of them are/were official members of the band. Of course, that could have changed when MP left; I could see JP and JM bringing JL and JR into the corporation since MP left the band and didn't remain part of the corportation, but it's hard to say. And now that MP's back, it's hard to say whether he would become a part of the corporation again or not.

One piece of insight I might offer here (although, ultimately, it's inconclusive):

DT conducts business through (at least) two corporations:  Ytse James, Inc. and Infinity Tours, Inc.  Ytse Jams, Inc. is a New York corporation that was formed in June 1988.  The current CEO is John Myung.  The business address is in midtown Manhattan, which I assume is c/o the band's lawyers are located.  Infinity Tours, Inc. is a Delaware corporation that was formed in December 1997.  All of the foregoing is public record, by the way.  With this in mind...

In April 2011, MP commenced litigation in the Supreme Court of NY against JP, JM, JLB, JR, Ytse Jams, Inc., and Infinity Tours, Inc. (MM was not named as a defendant).  The Summons with Notice that was filed in the case alleged that "Plaintiff [MP] is one of the founding members of a rock band (the "Band") and one of the founding and current shareholders of the defendant corporations.  Defendants Petrucci and Myung are the other founding members of the Band and the other founding and current shareholders of the defendant corporations.  The individual defendants claim to be the current members of the Band."  The Notice then went on to alleges that, "In breach of contract and breach of fiduciary duty, defendants . . . wrongfully excluded plaintiff from the Band;" and were wrongfully using the name of the band in connection with the recording of an album and live performances.

The allegations that MP was "one of the . . . current shareholders" and that JP and JM were "the other . . . current shareholders" suggest that they were the only three shareholders.  However, the allegation that all of the defendants (including JLB and JR) breached contract and fiduciary duties make no sense if JLB and JR were not also shareholders.  Fortunately, the dispute was resolved without the litigation going any further, but, unfortunately, that means that we didn't get to see a full complaint that likely would have explained the corporate ownership.  Note, by the way, that I suspect that part of the settlement involved the band buying out MP's interest so, if that's true, I wonder if they have re-added him as a shareholder.

FWIW, I would be awfully surprised if at least JLB wasn't a shareholder of Infinity Tours, Inc. since that entity was formed long after he joined the band.  I could order copies of the most recent biennial statements filed by Ytse Jams, Inc. (not so much for Infinity Tours, Inc. since document availability for Delaware corporations is more limited), but I don't feel like going through that rigamarole.

[KidInTheDark666]

Except for ADTOE, I rank all of the MM era outside the top 10 DT albums. I do still enjoy all of these, it's just that I really gravitate towards the earlier stuff, which is pretty rare for me with metal bands.

1. A Dramatic Turn of Events

Pretty much a masterpiece as far as I'm concerned. Far From Heaven is certainly a clunker and one of their worst songs IMO, but everything else borders on fantastic. One of the best performances from Jordan and JP on a full album scale. This Is the Life and Beneath the Surface feel particularly underappreciated as two of DT's top ballads. 

2. Distance Over Time

I think DT are generally very good at writing radio-friendly metal songs. On this album, all the singles as well as Out of Reach are great examples of that. I think JP is definitely once again the MVP on DOT, while James falls victim to the horrendous vocal effects they put on him. Too bad, since the vocal melodies themselves are on point mostly.

3. Dream Theater

I still after many years of listening do not get Illumination Theory. Fortunately, the band managed to put out a couple of banger singles and one of their most underrated songs ever, The Bigger Picture. I have no issues with the drum sound here, frankly I have no idea what people are talking about.

4. A View from the Top of the World

Probably the most "boring" and samey album in their catalog in my opinion. The songs are consistently good but never great, and it feels like we've heard all of this far too many times. I would say that Mangini gives his best performance here.

5. The Astonishing

I wish this was just one disc. The Gift of Music is my favorite Mangini-era song and possibly my favorite album opener too. It's just that the album is like what, 20 tracks too long? I like the concept and definitely agree with the common notion that The Astonishing is LaBrie's best performance since... maybe Octavarium of Systematic Chaos. Overall I could see this go up one place, but probably not higher than that.

[KevShmev]

What is overarching theme or identity of SC and BCSL?

The MM albums have felt more like a collection of songs rather than something on theme, barring The Astonishing. Not that that's a bad thing, but that might be what really separates the feel of the MP and MM eras. At least, the run from SFAM through 8VM had a theme going. SC and BCSL feel looser on the theme idea.

I don't agree at all.  Yes, some albums in the 00s had themes, but some did not.  I mean, if we are going to say that "trying to make a classic metal album" is a theme for Train of Thought, then we can say anything is a theme.  DT12 and A View... were clearly going for the dark and heavy "themes" previously found in Awake and Train of Thought.  The Astonishing obviously has a theme because it is a concept album.  Distance over Time and A Dramatic Turn of Events are both merely collection of songs by and large, yes, but we can also say that about I&W, Falling into Infinity, Six Degrees and Black Clouds.

Also, even the songs are not connected lyrically or musically, I have long thought that Systematic Chaos has a "cheesy 80s horror flick" vibe, which I guess can be considered a theme based on the liberal definition of the term I am seeing in this thread.

[Setlist Scotty]

One piece of insight I might offer here (although, ultimately, it's inconclusive):

DT conducts business through (at least) two corporations:  Ytse James, Inc. and Infinity Tours, Inc.  Ytse Jams, Inc. is a New York corporation that was formed in June 1988.  The current CEO is John Myung.  The business address is in midtown Manhattan, which I assume is c/o the band's lawyers are located.  Infinity Tours, Inc. is a Delaware corporation that was formed in December 1997.  All of the foregoing is public record, by the way.  With this in mind...

In April 2011, MP commenced litigation in the Supreme Court of NY against JP, JM, JLB, JR, Ytse Jams, Inc., and Infinity Tours, Inc. (MM was not named as a defendant).  The Summons with Notice that was filed in the case alleged that "Plaintiff [MP] is one of the founding members of a rock band (the "Band") and one of the founding and current shareholders of the defendant corporations.  Defendants Petrucci and Myung are the other founding members of the Band and the other founding and current shareholders of the defendant corporations.  The individual defendants claim to be the current members of the Band."  The Notice then went on to alleges that, "In breach of contract and breach of fiduciary duty, defendants . . . wrongfully excluded plaintiff from the Band;" and were wrongfully using the name of the band in connection with the recording of an album and live performances.

The allegations that MP was "one of the . . . current shareholders" and that JP and JM were "the other . . . current shareholders" suggest that they were the only three shareholders.  However, the allegation that all of the defendants (including JLB and JR) breached contract and fiduciary duties make no sense if JLB and JR were not also shareholders.  Fortunately, the dispute was resolved without the litigation going any further, but, unfortunately, that means that we didn't get to see a full complaint that likely would have explained the corporate ownership.  Note, by the way, that I suspect that part of the settlement involved the band buying out MP's interest so, if that's true, I wonder if they have re-added him as a shareholder.

FWIW, I would be awfully surprised if at least JLB wasn't a shareholder of Infinity Tours, Inc. since that entity was formed long after he joined the band.  I could order copies of the most recent biennial statements filed by Ytse Jams, Inc. (not so much for Infinity Tours, Inc. since document availability for Delaware corporations is more limited), but I don't feel like going through that rigamarole.

Dunno why but I thought Timmy had posted this. Thanks for the insights Paul! From your background, can you help define the difference between someone who is a band member (a paid salary employee) to someone who is a band member and part of the corporation? What differences and/or abilities would the one in the corporation have that the other would not? How different is an official band member (paid employee) different from a session/touring member?