Now that the MM era is finished, how would you rank those five albums?

[crystalstars17]

I don't think it's attributable TO MM, but maybe it's a part of the effects of "no MP" 

Ok disclaimer, this is not specifically about you, Stadler, but this very sentence seems to sum up the general mindset that's taken over out there that DT is somehow less-than without MP.

While I acknowledge his importance, he is no more important than any other member of this band. He is, simply put, a cog in a wheel. A very fancy cog in a very fancy wheel, but a cog in the wheel nonetheless.

What if it were James who went away and came back? Or Jordan? Would there be such a contingent, such an individual cult following (for lack of a better term, lol not implying anything weird here), for one of them? Would there be a huge faction of the fandom saying "OMG, JORDAN IS BACK, and DT was NOTHING without Jordan!" (don't laugh, I might even be the leader of such a faction!  ). But my point is, why is MP *specifically* so much more important in making DT what it is than anyone else in the band?

Mick Jagger has written many Stones songs himself, and he doesn't forget how to write or sing when Keef isn't there, but I think we can all agree that his solo output doesn't measure up to the Stones material.  Jimmy Page is another one.

And you could legitimately say this about ANY member of DT! None of them is as powerful all by themselves as they are with the band. I don't find any of their solo music as enjoyable as DT itself. I can say this also about almost ANY band I enjoy. But as you say...

It's art, it's about pleasure and release and enjoyment.  Why does it matter - other than curiosity - to anyone else what music "thrills" me or why?

Exactly! 💯

Now watch what happens when I say that you could also say that they have lost something irreplaceable and intangible when they let go of MM... 🤫

[WilliamMunny]

@Crystalstars17

I very much appreciate the passion you bring to all your posts, but I think I might disagree in this instance with the thought, "he is no more important than any other member of this band. He is, simply put, a cog in a wheel. A very fancy cog in a very fancy wheel, but a cog in the wheel nonetheless."

Having played on teams–be it bands, or otherwise–for most of my life, the above is not my experience at all.

In a group/team setting, some people occupy way more space than others. Some people ARE more important, in ways that are quantifiable, and ways that aren't. Some personalities are bigger, and suck the oxygen out of the room, or elevate others beyond their natural inclinations.

In this regard, I personally believe (but do not know for certain) that MP is WAYYYYYY more than just another cog in the wheel.

Again, I say this with a ton of love and respect, but the idea that MP is just another cog is almost insulting.

[CraftyCaleb2483]

that MP is WAYYYYYY more than just another cog in the real.

All the players are

[Setlist Scotty]

In this regard, I personally believe (but do not know for certain) that MP is WAYYYYYY more than just another cog in the wheel.

Again, I say this with a ton of love and respect, but the idea that MP is just another cog is almost insulting.

I agree. MP was for a longtime the face of the band and he took on more roles within the band than anyone else and was heavily invested to those things. Just one small example: when it came to overseeing the merch, he was very hands on, looking over every detail to make sure it was correct, and I say this having worked with him directly on 3 tourbooks. The first tour after the split, one of the cities listed on the back of at least one T-shirt was missing an initial for one of the states (I think New Jersey).

He also provided conceptual directions for the band to go in and had/has a much stronger pulse on what the fan base is thinking, what the fan base wants and what's going on in the music world. That's not to take away from what the other 4 guys also bring to the band, especially JP and JR. But MP was able to help elevate the band in a way that didn't happen while he was away.

[crystalstars17]

Again, I say this with a ton of love and respect, but the idea that MP is just another cog is almost insulting.

No insult was intended. I said what I said with "a ton of love and respect" as well, for the band as a whole.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Portnoy historically has a very unique role in the band but yeah...the notion that JP's riffs and solos somehow became less because of his absence is just wild to me. Not to mention it's without evidence and not even the most straight forward answer. This is assuming I agree that John is now less creative than he was in 2009, which I do not, though I was/am slightly critical of some of the more simplistic one note chugs on View. There is just a ton of special sauce being attributed to MP's presence right now and some of it I agree with but this is just one of those things that goes way too far in my mind.

I would note this is a slightly different point than the DT is the sum of parts idea.

[The Paddies]

Portnoy historically has a very unique role in the band but yeah...the notion that JP's riffs and solos somehow became less because of his absence is just wild to me. Not to mention it's without evidence and not even the most straight forward answer. This is assuming I agree that John is now less creative than he was in 2009, which I do not, though I was/am slightly critical of some of the more simplistic one note chugs on View. There is just a ton of special sauce being attributed to MP's presence right now and some of it I agree with but this is just one of those things that goes way too far in my mind.

I would note this is a slightly different point than the DT is the sum of parts idea.

I think it's well known that Portnoy listens to a lot more (new) music than Petrucci does. And therefore Portnoy can 'coach' Petrucci into doing (new) things Petrucci himself hasn't thought of or can not come up with (at the moment). Also Portnoy's role as a constructor of songs can be quite an influence on the output. While writing and recording MP can puzzle pieces together in a unique way and make connections in songs and in between songs quite easily. Jordan has recently stated this again in an interview. In this way Portnoy really does inspire and give Petrucci a few more options and thus 'colors' in his playing. I think Petrucci would agree with this as well. And I think this is one of the main reasons JP and MP love working together. The chemistry is just there.

That being said: Petrucci himself is obviously great at writing riffs and songs on his own as well. He was on a crazy spree releasing Terminal Velocity, LTE3 and D/T and AVFTTOTW in just a couple of years. Really impressive. Granted, some of the music sounds a bit more of the same, but releasing so much music, with such high quality overall, so far in ones career, is a triumph in itself. My guess though, is that JP started to feel a bit drained afterwards because a lot of pressure was mainly on him and he simply missed his sparring partner, because MP brings in something that Jordan nor the other band members bring in.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I think it's well known that Portnoy listens to a lot more (new) music than Petrucci does. And therefore Portnoy can 'coach' Petrucci into doing (new) things Petrucci himself hasn't thought of or can not come up with (at the moment). Also Portnoy's role as a constructor of songs can be quite an influence on the output. While writing and recording MP can puzzle pieces together in a unique way and make connections in songs and in between songs quite easily. Jordan has recently stated this again in an interview. In this way Portnoy really does inspire and give Petrucci a few more options and thus 'colors' in his playing. I think Petrucci would agree with this as well. And I think this is one of the main reasons JP and MP love working together. The chemistry is just there.

That being said: Petrucci himself is obviously great at writing riffs and songs on his own as well. He was on a crazy spree releasing Terminal Velocity, LTE3 and D/T and AVFTTOTW in just a couple of years. Really impressive. Granted, some of the music sounds a bit more of the same, but releasing so much music, with such high quality overall, so far in ones career, is a triumph in itself. My guess though, is that JP started to feel a bit drained afterwards because a lot of pressure was mainly on him and he simply missed his sparring partner, because MP brings in something that Jordan nor the other band members bring in.

lol. Mike Portnoy is not 'coaching' John Petrucci. I realize he has now taken on this ever expanding identity of jack of all trades (drummer, producer, director of fan engagement, director of setlists, musical muse, creative oracle, guitar coach, movie director, sex therapist, etc...jeez, some fans are making him out to be the Blob at this point) but I am still not seeing why JP is not THE primary driver of his own musical development over the last 30 years.

I am not saying he is not going to influence the songs. He is one of the songwriters so obviously he is. I am just rejecting the notion that without his 'coaching' John Petrucci is less creative. I tried to use the Astonishing as an example but it turned into a different topic and a digression over whether it was truly 'creative' because the story was similar to 2112 (didn't the last 3 MP era albums include a ton of very direct musical borrowings from *other* bands?). I just find it to be a farfetched extension of these increasingly messianic (frankly unrealistic) expectations of some fans but I think is almost quasi-dismissive of John's musical identity.

One last thing because I don't want to ignore your second paragraph...if Mike Portnoy was the drummer on TV and LTE3 but they're pretty much same-ish sounding as their predecessors doesn't that throw a wrench into the theory of John being more creative with MP at his side?

[crystalstars17]

**hits "like" button ten times**

[The Paddies]

lol. Mike Portnoy is not 'coaching' John Petrucci. I realize he has now taken on this ever expanding identity of jack of all trades (drummer, producer, director of fan engagement, director of setlists, musical muse, creative oracle, guitar coach, movie director, sex therapist, etc...jeez, some fans are making him out to be the Blob at this point) but I am still not seeing why JP is not THE primary driver of his own musical development over the last 30 years.

I am not saying he is not going to influence the songs. He is one of the songwriters so obviously he is. I am just rejecting the notion that without his 'coaching' John Petrucci is less creative. I tried to use the Astonishing as an example but it turned into a different topic and a digression over whether it was truly 'creative' because the story was similar to 2112 (didn't the last 3 MP era albums include a ton of very direct musical borrowings from *other* bands?). I just find it to be a farfetched extension of these increasingly messianic (frankly unrealistic) expectations of some fans but I think is almost quasi-dismissive of John's musical identity.

One last thing because I don't want to ignore your second paragraph...if Mike Portnoy was the drummer on TV and LTE3 but they're pretty much same-ish sounding as their predecessors doesn't that throw a wrench into the theory of John being more creative with MP at his side?

First of all: good I made you laugh out loud. Laughing is healthy.

Secondly: I don't really know why you respond as if I attacked you or I have a totally different opinion than yours. It's not even too different I guess. I never said Portnoy is more creative than Petrucci or vice versa. I tried to explain they feed on each other very well. Just watch the making of Train Of Thought documentary and you can see and hear Portnoy 'coach' Petrucci into writing a certain riff. And there are more examples of that to be found. The evidence is out there. Maybe you find my use of the word 'coaching' hilarious and maybe that's not the best word to use, but that's why I placed it in between hyphens.

I can't really answer your last question because - again - I never said one or the other is more creative. My point is that if they work together they can make each other work just a little harder (like if you're going to the gym with another person you want to out-do).

TV is a solo album by Petrucci and therefore MP is not as much involved in the songwriting or creative choices as within DT, so you can't really compare that process with a DT record. LTE again is another situation. With Levin LTE has a very prominent bass player. He writes more than Myung within DT, so that's also hard to compare, because it's a different group with another form of decision making. I thought we were talking about DT and my response was placed with DT in mind. I only mentioned LTE and TV in the second paragraph to give props to the massive amount of work JP has done in that short period of time.

To add another thought: Dream Theater without Petrucci can not exist in my eyes, whereas DT without Portnoy 'survived nicely' as Jordan has put it. ;-) But Mangini and Petrucci never had the songwriting chemistry like Petrucci and Portnoy had. Maybe because Mangini never was given the chance or maybe because they simply never had that 'click'. But that's a whole different discussion. And maybe a good question for someone to ask to Petrucci in an interview.

I hope this helps to understand my point of view better.

[The Paddies]

**hits "like" button ten times**

You know that results in not liking a post, right? ;-)

[gzarruk]

Without getting too much into the recent debate, I'll say that something I wish stays from the MM era is the great dynamic between bass and drums on those albums. This is not a MM vs MP post, but it seems that with Mike M, there was more of a conscious effort to marry the bass/drums rhythmic section as opposed to Mike P who likes to go out on his own and do flashy stuff instead of building the rhythmic foundation. This is more of a production/arrangement choice and not necessarily a drummer vs drummer thing.

[Stadler]

Ok disclaimer, this is not specifically about you, Stadler, but this very sentence seems to sum up the general mindset that's taken over out there that DT is somehow less-than without MP.

While I acknowledge his importance, he is no more important than any other member of this band. He is, simply put, a cog in a wheel. A very fancy cog in a very fancy wheel, but a cog in the wheel nonetheless.

Even if it IS about me, we're good; I respect your opinions. 

But I will point out:  not "less than", but "different than, and in a way that's less appealing to me".  I'm not perfect, I'm human, but I try very hard to stay away from "better than" when it comes to music.  I hate Radiohead with a passion, but I respect that others love them. 

And I'm in the camp that pushes back on "cog" a bit, at least without knowing what we mean by that.  I mean, they're all parts of a bigger whole, I'll give you that.  But that doesn't mean that all are equal and equivalent, past and present. I think it's like any group; there are dynamics.

Do you have different friend sets, by chance?  I do; I have friends here, I have my college friends, I have my high school friends, I have my work friends... there's a fair amount of overlap, but while I am always "Stadler" in all of them - and try very hard for authenticity across my life - but that's not to say that each encounter encompasses all parts of "Stadler" the same way.  At home?  I'm the guy that more often than not picks the restaurants, for example; college group? Not sure I've EVER selected the restaurant to be honest. In my current marriage, the selections are local and for various reasons is almost NEVER high end dining. My first wife?  If a place didn't have a wine list we weren't going. 

What if it were James who went away and came back? Or Jordan? Would there be such a contingent, such an individual cult following (for lack of a better term, lol not implying anything weird here), for one of them? Would there be a huge faction of the fandom saying "OMG, JORDAN IS BACK, and DT was NOTHING without Jordan!" (don't laugh, I might even be the leader of such a faction!  ). But my point is, why is MP *specifically* so much more important in making DT what it is than anyone else in the band?

It depends; there certainly is that feeling about Kevin Moore; the first three records are noticeably different in terms of keyboard work, writing style and lyrics, reflecting Kevin's input. 

But I think you're downplaying something very important:  it was FOUR GUYS back in a dorm room.  Mike, John, Kevin and John.  Mike's dad named the band, for Pete's sake.  This is their baby, their creation.  I don't take it you're a Kiss fan, but what you're describing is ACTUALLY the Kiss history. I was literally reading a thread last night on Facebook, that for some fans THERE IS NO KISS after Double Platinum (the last album that all four original members played on all/most of the tracks). 

Now watch what happens when I say that you could also say that they have lost something irreplaceable and intangible when they let go of MM... 🤫

They might have, if what you're looking for in DT is something that Mangini brought to the table. Maybe you prefer the decisions that John made without pushback from his drummer. Maybe you prefer the artistic choices that Mangini made.  That's your call, and only you can decide that.  I certainly see DIFFERENCES, and if you prefer the latter to the former, that's up to you; BUT... if you DO prefer the latter to the former, by definition you have to accept that someone else might prefer the former to the latter.  And you have to incorporate the fact that Portnoy had 25 years in and a hand in the creation and steering of the band to a point in 2012, whereas Mangini "only" had 12 years in an established band.  Those aren't opinions, those are facts, and we can't deny them. 

[Stadler]

lol. Mike Portnoy is not 'coaching' John Petrucci. I realize he has now taken on this ever expanding identity of jack of all trades (drummer, producer, director of fan engagement, director of setlists, musical muse, creative oracle, guitar coach, movie director, sex therapist, etc...jeez, some fans are making him out to be the Blob at this point) but I am still not seeing why JP is not THE primary driver of his own musical development over the last 30 years.

I'm not sure why we have to be hyperbolic.  Some of those things ARE accurate, but the implications aren't so much. It was as much HIS band as it was John's or anyone else's. He had a vision of what it would look like, and he's one of those guys that isn't content with sitting in his bedroom doing paradiddles at an ever-faster rate.  He is a fan - like me, I might add! - and cares about artwork. Cares about the song structures (splitting songs across a record like Pink Floyd did!). Cares about the setlist. Cares about the tour shirts.   I think William Munny had it right: these collectives are a dynamic, and the idea that every guy is a world unto themselves, and all equals and all uninfluenced by those around them is just not how the world works.

To something that gets said in the P/R forum a lot by El Barto, there's this notion that we're not all endowed with the same levels of get up and go, we're not all extroverts, we're not all risk-takers, we're not all initiators... every band can't have five Bonos, or five David Lee Roths or five Yngwie Malmsteens. The world needs the Ian Hills, the Michael Anthonys, the Don Aireys.

I am not saying he is not going to influence the songs. He is one of the songwriters so obviously he is. I am just rejecting the notion that without his 'coaching' John Petrucci is less creative. I tried to use the Astonishing as an example but it turned into a different topic and a digression over whether it was truly 'creative' because the story was similar to 2112 (didn't the last 3 MP era albums include a ton of very direct musical borrowings from *other* bands?). I just find it to be a farfetched extension of these increasingly messianic (frankly unrealistic) expectations of some fans but I think is almost quasi-dismissive of John's musical identity.

I think we're stretching the word "creative".  I think it's not about the ideas or the quality of the ideas, but as anyone who's heard the original "I Love Rock and Roll" by The Arrows knows, sometimes it's about the total package; Joan Jett brought something "creative" - beyond the notes and phrases and words - to the song that elevated it.

One last thing because I don't want to ignore your second paragraph...if Mike Portnoy was the drummer on TV and LTE3 but they're pretty much same-ish sounding as their predecessors doesn't that throw a wrench into the theory of John being more creative with MP at his side?

One, Mike was the drummer on LTE and LTE2, so there's that, and two, I think Mike will be the first to tell you that for a solo album, "that's his baby". Your TV example is less about Mike not sparking John's creativity as much as it is maybe Mike consciously or subconsciously stepping back and doing what he's told in that narrow context.

[Progmaniac1988]

Ok disclaimer, this is not specifically about you, Stadler, but this very sentence seems to sum up the general mindset that's taken over out there that DT is somehow less-than without MP.

While I acknowledge his importance, he is no more important than any other member of this band. He is, simply put, a cog in a wheel. A very fancy cog in a very fancy wheel, but a cog in the wheel nonetheless.

What if it were James who went away and came back? Or Jordan? Would there be such a contingent, such an individual cult following (for lack of a better term, lol not implying anything weird here), for one of them? Would there be a huge faction of the fandom saying "OMG, JORDAN IS BACK, and DT was NOTHING without Jordan!" (don't laugh, I might even be the leader of such a faction!  ). But my point is, why is MP *specifically* so much more important in making DT what it is than anyone else in the band?

And you could legitimately say this about ANY member of DT! None of them is as powerful all by themselves as they are with the band. I don't find any of their solo music as enjoyable as DT itself. I can say this also about almost ANY band I enjoy. But as you say...

Exactly! 💯

Now watch what happens when I say that you could also say that they have lost something irreplaceable and intangible when they let go of MM... 🤫

I feel you lol, I'll say this much. I'd personally be equally as bummed if any of the other guys left, Rudess included. I unlike a good amount prefer him over both Kevin and Derek... that's the beauty of this band tho. They are so talented any of them leaving makes a huge difference. I love Portnoy, but I Love this whole band. I'll even miss some things Mangini brought to the band despite preferring Portnoy. Not all us Portnoy lovers are like that, but I feel your pain lol

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

First of all: good I made you laugh out loud. Laughing is healthy.

Secondly: I don't really know why you respond as if I attacked you or I have a totally different opinion than yours. It's not even too different I guess. I never said Portnoy is more creative than Petrucci or vice versa. I tried to explain they feed on each other very well. Just watch the making of Train Of Thought documentary and you can see and hear Portnoy 'coach' Petrucci into writing a certain riff. And there are more examples of that to be found. The evidence is out there. Maybe you find my use of the word 'coaching' hilarious and maybe that's not the best word to use, but that's why I placed it in between hyphens.

I can't really answer your last question because - again - I never said one or the other is more creative. My point is that if they work together they can make each other work just a little harder (like if you're going to the gym with another person you want to out-do).

TV is a solo album by Petrucci and therefore MP is not as much involved in the songwriting or creative choices as within DT, so you can't really compare that process with a DT record. LTE again is another situation. With Levin LTE has a very prominent bass player. He writes more than Myung within DT, so that's also hard to compare, because it's a different group with another form of decision making. I thought we were talking about DT and my response was placed with DT in mind. I only mentioned LTE and TV in the second paragraph to give props to the massive amount of work JP has done in that short period of time.

To add another thought: Dream Theater without Petrucci can not exist in my eyes, whereas DT without Portnoy 'survived nicely' as Jordan has put it. ;-) But Mangini and Petrucci never had the songwriting chemistry like Petrucci and Portnoy had. Maybe because Mangini never was given the chance or maybe because they simply never had that 'click'. But that's a whole different discussion. And maybe a good question for someone to ask to Petrucci in an interview.

I hope this helps to understand my point of view better.

As MP is both a songwriter and a non-guitarist it makes sense to me that he will have ideas that he wants John to play. I get that. I wouldn't call that coaching so maybe it's just a matter of using a different word. Merriam-Webster provides the following definition for the verb to coach: "to train intensively (as by instruction and demonstration)"

I do not believe this is an accurate representation of the musical relationship between MP and JP. At all. Also, to clarify one thing: I do not believe you or I said one guy was more creative than the next.

Since the guitar parts in View have been used in this discussion about whether JP is more or less creative with MP at his side, I would like to remind people of something. In the span of about a year (2020-2021) John Petrucci dropped 3 albums: Terminal Velocity, LTE3, and View. The last of these albums to be released was View. It was also the last of the 3 to be written. In part 2 of the View documentary, John says that on TV he had a lot of musical ideas saved over the years. On LTE, it was both saved ideas and improvisation. By the time he got to writing View, he took the approach that it was all to be written in the studio. Thus his ideas on that album were not sitting there marinating. Everything they wrote on View was together or maybe the morning before or after being together. My point is that this is a very different writing process. 3 albums in such a short period of time is a LOT. Add to the equation that you're making up the parts on the spot or the morning-of and it just makes sense you could end up with some more simplistic parts. By definition you're not giving yourself much time - if any - to work out ideas or even source the ones you may have worked out last year. I find this to be a much more plausible explanation for why you could end up with more simplistic riffs on View versus all the years without Coach Portnoy finally caught up to him.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Without getting too much into the recent debate, I'll say that something I wish stays from the MM era is the great dynamic between bass and drums on those albums. This is not a MM vs MP post, but it seems that with Mike M, there was more of a conscious effort to marry the bass/drums rhythmic section as opposed to Mike P who likes to go out on his own and do flashy stuff instead of building the rhythmic foundation. This is more of a production/arrangement choice and not necessarily a drummer vs drummer thing.

This is very true and I remember people noticing this exact thing early on in the Mangini era. It's one of the things I thought really elevated the MM albums above their predecessors.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

I feel you lol, I'll say this much. I'd personally be equally as bummed if any of the other guys left, Rudess included. I unlike a good amount prefer him over both Kevin and Derek... that's the beauty of this band tho. They are so talented any of them leaving makes a huge difference. I love Portnoy, but I Love this whole band. I'll even miss some things Mangini brought to the band despite preferring Portnoy. Not all us Portnoy lovers are like that, but I feel your pain lol

come and mount your man

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I'm not sure why we have to be hyperbolic.  Some of those things ARE accurate, but the implications aren't so much. It was as much HIS band as it was John's or anyone else's. He had a vision of what it would look like, and he's one of those guys that isn't content with sitting in his bedroom doing paradiddles at an ever-faster rate.  He is a fan - like me, I might add! - and cares about artwork. Cares about the song structures (splitting songs across a record like Pink Floyd did!). Cares about the setlist. Cares about the tour shirts.  I think William Munny had it right: these collectives are a dynamic, and the idea that every guy is a world unto themselves, and all equals and all uninfluenced by those around them is just not how the world works.

To something that gets said in the P/R forum a lot by El Barto, there's this notion that we're not all endowed with the same levels of get up and go, we're not all extroverts, we're not all risk-takers, we're not all initiators... every band can't have five Bonos, or five David Lee Roths or five Yngwie Malmsteens. The world needs the Ian Hills, the Michael Anthonys, the Don Aireys.

I think we're stretching the word "creative".  I think it's not about the ideas or the quality of the ideas, but as anyone who's heard the original "I Love Rock and Roll" by The Arrows knows, sometimes it's about the total package; Joan Jett brought something "creative" - beyond the notes and phrases and words - to the song that elevated it.

One, Mike was the drummer on LTE and LTE2, so there's that, and two, I think Mike will be the first to tell you that for a solo album, "that's his baby". Your TV example is less about Mike not sparking John's creativity as much as it is maybe Mike consciously or subconsciously stepping back and doing what he's told in that narrow context.

Are you ever hyperbolic in your posts? 

I've recognized his many roles in the band over the years. When I was a newer fan he made it more fun than it would have otherwise been so I don't deny he brings things to the table. My qualms are with what I see as exaggerations and excess. The coaching thing is a good example as the creativity thing. I just don't think they're based in reality and that is not to diminish the changes that will happen in the band going forward now that MP is back.

[TAC]

I think MP being in the room makes a difference. It's only natural. I think JP being in the room makes a difference. Theoretically anyone in the room during the creation of the songs has "some" impact.

I think by and large, we have an idea that MP was a pretty active member in the writing process. We don't know, or we may assume that MM had not much. It did seem that he was a bit more included in the last two albums.

Other than my top handful of albums by the band, I generally find that most of DT's albums are relatively interchangeable in (IMO) quality, whether it be with MP or MM.


Drumming does indeed make a difference. Drummers are not interchangeable. Personally, I'm happy MP is coming back, but I also would've been happy if he wasn't.

[Progmaniac1988]

come and mount your man

Why am I not surprised by this comment?

Fact is some Portnoy fanboys and girls kinda suck lol. So I get it, but to a degree. Some Mangini lovers are just as bad. My point is dont lump everyone together. Some people STILL to this day talk crap about Rudess and cry for Moore to come back... I don't get it, but it is what it is. Put 10 DT fans in a room and we can only agree on one thing and that's we can't agree on s***... I used to get pissed when some people would s*** on Portnoy or Rudess for example, but You can't let it get to you, because it's just not worth it.

[Progmaniac1988]

Now to get back on track
Here's my ranking lol

1 - ADTOE  8.5
2 - DOT 7.5
3 - AVFTTOTW - 7.2
4 - DT - 7.0
5 - TA - 6.8

I love all 5 albums in different ways. My ranks changed a bit this past year... ADTOE is classic tier to me, View used to be #2 for me in the MM era, but it seems to have not aged too well for me. So DOT took the #2 spot. DOT has some of the best of the era. While DT12 as a few of their all time best it also has a lot of filler. TA same as DT12 but much worse imo. Amazing moments but a lot of fillers that I end up skipping.

[Setlist Scotty]

As MP is both a songwriter and a non-guitarist it makes sense to me that he will have ideas that he wants John to play. I get that. I wouldn't call that coaching so maybe it's just a matter of using a different word. Merriam-Webster provides the following definition for the verb to coach: "to train intensively (as by instruction and demonstration)"

I do not believe this is an accurate representation of the musical relationship between MP and JP. At all. Also, to clarify one thing: I do not believe you or I said one guy was more creative than the next.

OK, so as The Paddies said, maybe 'coach' was the wrong terminology to use. How about encourage? motivate? push? direct? Whatever word you wanna use, his relationship with JP was and is different than that of MM. There are things that MP did that MM could not. Case in point? Watch this video from the point I linked until about 6:40 and tell me that MM could do the same thing as MP. https://youtu.be/zebBFPtGYO0?t=224

While I haven't attended nor seen footage of writing sessions with MM, I'd be willing to bet that MM never would have interacted or made suggestions or built upon what JP came up with as we see in that footage for whatever reason you want to choose (he's too nice a guy to speak up, etc.) And the ToT writing session is not an isolated example. I can remember seeing other footage (I want to say from the BCaSL sessions) where MP did something similar. But it's not just with JP that MP did that. IIRC, I read in an interview that when they were writing the title track to SDoIT, MP was directing JR to come up with 'the saddest melody he could' or something to that effect and other ideas. Again, something MM never would have done himself. So yes, he is a more influential 'cog' than MM.

Since the guitar parts in View have been used in this discussion about whether JP is more or less creative with MP at his side, I would like to remind people of something. In the span of about a year (2020-2021) John Petrucci dropped 3 albums: Terminal Velocity, LTE3, and View. The last of these albums to be released was View. It was also the last of the 3 to be written. In part 2 of the View documentary, John says that on TV he had a lot of musical ideas saved over the years. On LTE, it was both saved ideas and improvisation. By the time he got to writing View, he took the approach that it was all to be written in the studio. Thus his ideas on that album were not sitting there marinating. Everything they wrote on View was together or maybe the morning before or after being together. My point is that this is a very different writing process. 3 albums in such a short period of time is a LOT. Add to the equation that you're making up the parts on the spot or the morning-of and it just makes sense you could end up with some more simplistic parts. By definition you're not giving yourself much time - if any - to work out ideas or even source the ones you may have worked out last year. I find this to be a much more plausible explanation for why you could end up with more simplistic riffs on View versus all the years without Coach Portnoy finally caught up to him.

You bring up an interesting point that could explain that to an extent. But going back to what you said earlier, while I could see an argument being made for including LTE3 in the comparison since it was fully collaborative, your inclusion of TV is completely without merit since MP had *zero* influence on the writing of that album as Stads pointed out. That was all JP. MP came in *after* the fact. In fact, MP played drums to the final guitar recordings replacing the programmed drum tracks he and Jimmy T(?) had come up with.

[CraftyCaleb2483]

I find this to be a much more plausible explanation for why you could end up with more simplistic riffs on View versus all the years without Coach Portnoy finally caught up to him.

That is a very good point, I forgot he wrote all those other albums as well!

[Freeze]

1.The Astonishing
2.Distance Over Time
3.ADTOE
4.DT
5.AWFTTOTW

[crystalstars17]

your inclusion of TV is completely without merit since MP had *zero* influence on the writing of that album as Stads pointed out. That was all JP.

Then doesn't this prove, if anything, that JP does perfectly well all by himself?

[crystalstars17]

But I will point out:  not "less than", but "different than, and in a way that's less appealing to me".

Exactly, and I can say the same.

They might have, if what you're looking for in DT is something that Mangini brought to the table. Maybe you prefer the decisions that John made without pushback from his drummer. Maybe you prefer the artistic choices that Mangini made.  That's your call, and only you can decide that.  I certainly see DIFFERENCES, and if you prefer the latter to the former, that's up to you; BUT... if you DO prefer the latter to the former, by definition you have to accept that someone else might prefer the former to the latter.

And I do, but that's not the issue. The issue (and I know we're discussing two sets of issues here) is the pervading attitude across the fandom that MP will singlehandedly save the Titanic, or something. He's not Superman. It's blown way out of proportion. I understand that people are passionate about those they admire (or we all wouldn't be here, right?), but it looks from the outside as if the MP-contingent puts him on some kind of pedestal that's almost too larger-than-life, to the point where he can do no wrong and is gonna save the DT world (have a little more hyperbole!    lol - even the great authors used it because sometimes, it just works, especially when describing behaviors that are in themselves hyperbolic). It's a really weird phenomenon from the outside and I haven't even been in these spaces very long and yet it's very easy to see.
 

And you have to incorporate the fact that Portnoy had 25 years in and a hand in the creation and steering of the band to a point in 2012, whereas Mangini "only" had 12 years in an established band.  Those aren't opinions, those are facts, and we can't deny them.

I don't think it matters how much time either put in when we're talking about fan preferences and whose contributions we prefer. That's just as you said simply about preference. For example I will always love AVFTTOTW exponentially more than SC. That's just my preference and yours may be the opposite, and that's fine; we can both continue along as two fans of different incarnations of the same band. But I also don't see you exhibiting the kind of behavior I described, I just see a person with a preference for one over the other. 🤷

I do acknowledge that MP was a founder of the band and is their dear friend, and that this personal dimension means a great deal to the band. I don't disparage any of that. It's the fanbase reaction in a certain group of fans that I think is what TheBarstoolWarrior was referring to when he used the word "messianic"    - an overhyped mindset that just seems way out of balance and over the top. People, come on - he's not a superhero, he's not Santa Claus - he's just a very talented man who plays the drums. I've been in fandoms for a while and I've never seen anything quite like this.

**disclaimer - No insults were intended toward MP or his fans - No superheroes were harmed in the making of this post. ✨

[CraftyCaleb2483]

Sorry, I've lost track, what are we debating again??

[Progmaniac1988]

Sorry, I've lost track, what are we debating again??

Lol, a debate that many MP fans say DT is less without him and the overall argument that Portnoys absence made a difference to song writing? As an MP fan myself I'd say his input makes a huge difference BUT I would not go so far to say it makes DT less. It's just different imo... that's In a nutshell lol. Maybe we just make a new topic discussing this? Just to keep on track.

[CraftyCaleb2483]

Lol, a debate that many MP fans say DT is less without him and the overall argument that Portnoys absence made a difference to song writing? As an MP fan myself I'd say his input makes a huge difference BUT I would not go so far to say it makes DT less. It's just different imo... that's In a nutshell lol. Maybe we just make a new topic discussing this? Just to keep on track.

I'm agreed on everything there lol

[Octavaripolis]

I haven't posted here in forever (I am in fact no longer a "teenage weakling") but my interest in DT has been piqued by the return of MP. I loved ADTOE but felt DT12 was subpar and kind of fell out of love with the band, and the next few albums did more than enough to make me stop buying tickets--I still enjoyed the DT12 tour when it hit my city.

While I mainly *love* 90s era DT, I don't know if it's fair to pin the shortcomings of the post-Portnoy albums on Mangini. If anything, I'm interested in the new album to see if the obvious musical chemistry with MP can get JR and JP to bring the good shit again. I think most fans of DT can admit that ADTOE has some amazing stuff on there (in all sorts of styles), so it's clearly not the case that JP and JR need Portnoy to deliver the goods, but the albums after seemed to me to lack something. Honestly I believe that Mangini would greatly complement any wild, creative, and awesome stuff that Petrucci and Rudess would throw at him, it's just that they did not do that too often, IMO. 

[KevShmev]

I do acknowledge that MP was a founder of the band and is their dear friend, and that this personal dimension means a great deal to the band. I don't disparage any of that. It's the fanbase reaction in a certain group of fans that I think is what TheBarstoolWarrior was referring to when he used the word "messianic"    - an overhyped mindset that just seems way out of balance and over the top. People, come on - he's not a superhero, he's not Santa Claus - he's just a very talented man who plays the drums. I've been in fandoms for a while and I've never seen anything quite like this.

I know exactly what you mean. I had kind of forgotten how a certain contingent of people get when it comes to defending Portnoy on these forums, but his return has been a reminder of how chatter in the DT side of this forum had gotten prior to his departure in 2010.  It's only going to be worse once the tour starts, so brace yourself.   

[Progmaniac1988]

You know what? Portnoy, Mangini, I'm just happy we got this much excitement for my fav band while hitting 40 freaking years! Lol The fact that so many fans are this excited for new material and the tour too speaks volumes about just how special this band is! I love this band lol

[Trav]

You know what? Portnoy, Mangini, I'm just happy we got this much excitement for my fav band while hitting 40 freaking years! Lol The fact that so many fans are this excited for new material and the tour too speaks volumes about just how special this band is! I love this band lol

Well said.

[emtee]

After getting the HD version of ADToE and listening to it solely on my headphones, it has become one of the 3 biggest one-eighty degree about faces in my life. Just an amazingly brilliant album that I was never able to appreciate by owning the CD. At this point in time it's on almost daily rotation and I think it is a top 3 or 4 album.