DREAM THEATER ANNOUNCE THE RETURN OF DRUMMER MIKE PORTNOY

[wolfking]

Yes, but the click tracks!

Hmmm.....yes, you are right.  Discussion re-open!

[WilliamMunny]

Well, I think it's safe to say that we've exhausted this conversation and fucked it from every single angle we possibly could.  Now all we do is sit back and wait for the album.....

Yes, but the click tracks!

I literally just laughed out loud... my wife is looking at me confused 

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I couldn't tell you that this for sure true and back it up with specific examples, but I hear this as well.  I think it's as simple as this:  it felt to me like MM was trying to write his drum parts to be as complex as possible, while MP never did that.  Hyperbole alert:  "The high-hat was doing a 7/8 pattern, while the right bass drum was playing 4/4, but the left bass drum was playing 63/64, while I was hitting the snare every 15th beat, all the while my dick was hitting the cowbell in a 255/256 pattern."

I don't think this is accurate.  I think that MM's goal, always, is to accent and support the other parts of the song.  I have a long history with Drum & Bugle Corps, and MM seems to write his parts in a similar way as Drum Corps arrangers do for the drumline:  Except when being explicitly featured, the drums support and add weight to what the rest of the ensemble is doing.  JR's doing a fast ascending run?  MM will support that with a matching ascending run.  Where he gets into really complicated parts is when he is supporting multiple parts at once, where JP, JR, and/or JM are playing different things.  Although MM's parts are often more complicated, MP parts are more often "flashy" or "showing off", to me.  Personally, I think they're both great, if different, drummers.

Agreed 100% and to be clear I like both drummers and both styles they bring to the table. They are certainly very different styles, each with merit.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

This is not just letting go of one musician to hire another.  This isn't the exact same as letting go DS to hire JR.  This is letting go of one member to get back an OG member of the family.  It's kind of unprecedented.  It's a special case.

I agree fully with what you posted Hef except for this. While it's true that JR isn't "OG" like MP, he *was* the one that they wanted originally when KM left the band. And once they worked together in LTE and JR was now open to joining the band, they made the move. I think it's probably very similar with bringing MP back.

Similar, yes.  But not the same.  JR being hired was not him returning to DT with whom he had already made lots of albums.  He had only ever played with MP and JP before.

It's the closest example, but it's not the same.

Didn't DS get let go because of differences in creative chemistry? Or did it have something to do with Falling Into Infinity? Or both and more?

I wasn't a fan at the time and didn't ever really follow it to be honest, but I recall other fans telling me that is why essentially.

[Setlist Scotty]

This is not just letting go of one musician to hire another.  This isn't the exact same as letting go DS to hire JR.  This is letting go of one member to get back an OG member of the family.  It's kind of unprecedented.  It's a special case.

I agree fully with what you posted Hef except for this. While it's true that JR isn't "OG" like MP, he *was* the one that they wanted originally when KM left the band. And once they worked together in LTE and JR was now open to joining the band, they made the move. I think it's probably very similar with bringing MP back.

Similar, yes.  But not the same.  JR being hired was not him returning to DT with whom he had already made lots of albums.  He had only ever played with MP and JP before.

It's the closest example, but it's not the same.

Didn't DS get let go because of differences in creative chemistry? Or did it have something to do with Falling Into Infinity? Or both and more?

I wasn't a fan at the time and didn't ever really follow it to be honest, but I recall other fans telling me that is why essentially.

No. It basically boiled down to the fact that they preferred their chemistry with JR over that of DS. DS did nothing wrong and in fact is often wrongly blamed for FII being the failure that it was, but that wasn't the case. His lifestyle was different (at the time, he was the only single member of the band) and he didn't have a problem stirring up some controversy with his choice of stage clothes and presentation, so those were contributing factors, but not the primary reasons why he was let go.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

This is not just letting go of one musician to hire another.  This isn't the exact same as letting go DS to hire JR.  This is letting go of one member to get back an OG member of the family.  It's kind of unprecedented.  It's a special case.

I agree fully with what you posted Hef except for this. While it's true that JR isn't "OG" like MP, he *was* the one that they wanted originally when KM left the band. And once they worked together in LTE and JR was now open to joining the band, they made the move. I think it's probably very similar with bringing MP back.

Similar, yes.  But not the same.  JR being hired was not him returning to DT with whom he had already made lots of albums.  He had only ever played with MP and JP before.

It's the closest example, but it's not the same.

Didn't DS get let go because of differences in creative chemistry? Or did it have something to do with Falling Into Infinity? Or both and more?

I wasn't a fan at the time and didn't ever really follow it to be honest, but I recall other fans telling me that is why essentially.

No. It basically boiled down to the fact that they preferred their chemistry with JR over that of DS. DS did nothing wrong and in fact is often wrongly blamed for FII being the failure that it was, but that wasn't the case. His lifestyle was different (at the time, he was the only single member of the band) and he didn't have a problem stirring up some controversy with his choice of stage clothes and presentation, so those were contributing factors, but not the primary reasons why he was let go.

Got it. I guess we'll see what does come out eventually but right now based on what MP and JP have said about the recent change, it does sound like a very different scenario.

[Lax]

Slipknot on a human scale has been so disappointing !
-There always has been hints that it was sort of "clown's baby".
-The good albums were done by the whole band in a state of alcool and drug abuse violent enough to kill ozzy.
-After that it only went downhill. Paul gray died from an overdose, he was one of the best songwriter of the band.
Joey got kicked out because he was dying.
Pornocchio got fired because he wanted money from merch.
The guy shaking his head in front of his sampler left recently.
-Recently, we heard the lamest drama, from jim root shitting on their latest album (to be some rushed uninspired shit to finish their contract) and on the unreleased one to be something only clown will be proud of...to corey taylor saying guitarists in stone sour sucks (including root).

I think the last straw was a recent interview where they said clown and taylor are the bosses and the others are just hired guns. That's so lame for those who are there since the beginning...

If the band wasn't going strong live, it would already had splitted, it's a mess.

[hefdaddy42]

This is not just letting go of one musician to hire another.  This isn't the exact same as letting go DS to hire JR.  This is letting go of one member to get back an OG member of the family.  It's kind of unprecedented.  It's a special case.

I agree fully with what you posted Hef except for this. While it's true that JR isn't "OG" like MP, he *was* the one that they wanted originally when KM left the band. And once they worked together in LTE and JR was now open to joining the band, they made the move. I think it's probably very similar with bringing MP back.

Similar, yes.  But not the same.  JR being hired was not him returning to DT with whom he had already made lots of albums.  He had only ever played with MP and JP before.

It's the closest example, but it's not the same.

Didn't DS get let go because of differences in creative chemistry? Or did it have something to do with Falling Into Infinity? Or both and more?

I wasn't a fan at the time and didn't ever really follow it to be honest, but I recall other fans telling me that is why essentially.

No. It basically boiled down to the fact that they preferred their chemistry with JR over that of DS. DS did nothing wrong and in fact is often wrongly blamed for FII being the failure that it was, but that wasn't the case. His lifestyle was different (at the time, he was the only single member of the band) and he didn't have a problem stirring up some controversy with his choice of stage clothes and presentation, so those were contributing factors, but not the primary reasons why he was let go.

Yep.  They liked DS, they just LOVED JR lol

[hefdaddy42]

Hey, am I misremembering?  Didn't MP say recently that he had never played live to a click track?  Clearly he has in the studio, but I could have sworn he said he has never done so live.

[cramx3]

Slipknot on a human scale has been so disappointing !
-There always has been hints that it was sort of "clown's baby".
-The good albums were done by the whole band in a state of alcool and drug abuse violent enough to kill ozzy.
-After that it only went downhill. Paul gray died from an overdose, he was one of the best songwriter of the band.
Joey got kicked out because he was dying.
Pornocchio got fired because he wanted money from merch.
The guy shaking his head in front of his sampler left recently.
-Recently, we heard the lamest drama, from jim root shitting on their latest album (to be some rushed uninspired shit to finish their contract) and on the unreleased one to be something only clown will be proud of...to corey taylor saying guitarists in stone sour sucks (including root).

I think the last straw was a recent interview where they said clown and taylor are the bosses and the others are just hired guns. That's so lame for those who are there since the beginning...

If the band wasn't going strong live, it would already had splitted, it's a mess.

Add in Corey Taylor cancelling his solo tour as it seems all this turmoil is getting to him.

[bosk1]

Hey, am I misremembering?  Didn't MP say recently that he had never played live to a click track?  Clearly he has in the studio, but I could have sworn he said he has never done so live.

I think that's right.

[hefdaddy42]

Hey, am I misremembering?  Didn't MP say recently that he had never played live to a click track?  Clearly he has in the studio, but I could have sworn he said he has never done so live.

I think that's right.

Asking for a side conversation lol

Someone is claiming he played live with a click for A7X and Twisted Sister.  I would be SHOCKED if he did for Twisted Sister, but I could see it maybe with A7X.  But again, I could have sworn he said something about that recently.

[bosk1]

Not sure.  I do vaguely recall the comment you mention, but maybe in context he was specifically talking about DT?  Not sure.  I do know A7X have had a lot of production in their shows, so maybe they use a click to hold it all together, but I don't know one wa or the other.

[Mosh]

I remember on that Portnoy A7X tour they were using backing tracks with The Rev's vocals on at least one song. Not sure how they would have pulled that off without a click.

[cramx3]

I remember on that Portnoy A7X tour they were using backing tracks with The Rev's vocals on at least one song. Not sure how they would have pulled that off without a click.

Could be triggered, but I'm pretty sure A7X use a click track now as their current show uses a lot of backing tracks.  Not 100% sure about the past though.

[hefdaddy42]

I remember on that Portnoy A7X tour they were using backing tracks with The Rev's vocals on at least one song. Not sure how they would have pulled that off without a click.

They used a click.  I was provided with evidence to that effect.

I would still be flabbergasted if Twisted Sister used a click.

[Mosh]

Yea, I just checked out some TS live recordings with Portnoy. It's loose. 

[MirrorMask]

I remember on that Portnoy A7X tour they were using backing tracks with The Rev's vocals on at least one song. Not sure how they would have pulled that off without a click.

Could be triggered, but I'm pretty sure A7X use a click track now as their current show uses a lot of backing tracks.  Not 100% sure about the past though.

Sorry to derail the conversation for a moment.

How do you trigger a backing vocal pretaped, an effect, a sample etc? the drummer hits something at the proper time? a backstage guy who knows the song does it on time just like the pyro guys sends the fires off when it's time 'cause they know the song?

[cramx3]

I remember on that Portnoy A7X tour they were using backing tracks with The Rev's vocals on at least one song. Not sure how they would have pulled that off without a click.

Could be triggered, but I'm pretty sure A7X use a click track now as their current show uses a lot of backing tracks.  Not 100% sure about the past though.

Sorry to derail the conversation for a moment.

How do you trigger a backing vocal pretaped, an effect, a sample etc? the drummer hits something at the proper time? a backstage guy who knows the song does it on time just like the pyro guys sends the fires off when it's time 'cause they know the song?

Yeah could be any of those.  I'm no expert here, but there's been examples I've read of.  I think Rush was manually triggering samples, maybe it was Geddy doing it? 

I can imagine tons of ways to do this, maybe just build a keyboard that you store your samples in and just click the key when appropriate.  Could also be something on the mixing board where the sound engineer is triggering it, maybe via a laptop. 

[crystalstars17]

Now all we do is sit back and wait for the album.....

This is kind of where I've landed.

Idk what to say about click tracks, other than that I only hope the result of not having one isn't a sloppy show.

[cramx3]

Now all we do is sit back and wait for the album.....

This is kind of where I've landed.

Idk what to say about click tracks, other than that I only hope the result of not having one isn't a sloppy show.

Is there a show in DT's history that can be labelled as sloppy?  I've got to imagine a show exists where they were just bad that night, but honestly, I can't recall seeing such a thing other than some screw ups on a song by song basis which even those aren't too common. (or JLB being poor, which I wouldn't put down as "sloppy")

[Mosh]

I remember on that Portnoy A7X tour they were using backing tracks with The Rev's vocals on at least one song. Not sure how they would have pulled that off without a click.

Could be triggered, but I'm pretty sure A7X use a click track now as their current show uses a lot of backing tracks.  Not 100% sure about the past though.

Sorry to derail the conversation for a moment.

How do you trigger a backing vocal pretaped, an effect, a sample etc? the drummer hits something at the proper time? a backstage guy who knows the song does it on time just like the pyro guys sends the fires off when it's time 'cause they know the song?

Yeah could be any of those.  I'm no expert here, but there's been examples I've read of.  I think Rush was manually triggering samples, maybe it was Geddy doing it? 

I can imagine tons of ways to do this, maybe just build a keyboard that you store your samples in and just click the key when appropriate.  Could also be something on the mixing board where the sound engineer is triggering it, maybe via a laptop.

IIRC Kevin Moore was triggering spoken word samples during the I&W days on his keyboard (certain keys assigned to appropriate samples).

[hefdaddy42]

Now all we do is sit back and wait for the album.....

This is kind of where I've landed.

Idk what to say about click tracks, other than that I only hope the result of not having one isn't a sloppy show.

Is there a show in DT's history that can be labelled as sloppy?  I've got to imagine a show exists where they were just bad that night, but honestly, I can't recall seeing such a thing other than some screw ups on a song by song basis which even those aren't too common. (or JLB being poor, which I wouldn't put down as "sloppy")

The loosest show I remember was the Scottish show that produced the Canadian Rap. But it wasn't loose from a musical standpoint. They were just punch drunk which made hilarity happen.

That's the funniest shit ever.

[gborland]

The loosest show I remember was the Scottish show that produced the Canadian Rap. But it wasn't loose from a musical standpoint. They were just punch drunk which made hilarity happen.

That's the funniest shit ever.

And they had the guy up from the audience singing Black Sabbath? Or the one where they had the stripper on stage? I was at both. 

[HOF]

I remember on that Portnoy A7X tour they were using backing tracks with The Rev's vocals on at least one song. Not sure how they would have pulled that off without a click.

Could be triggered, but I'm pretty sure A7X use a click track now as their current show uses a lot of backing tracks.  Not 100% sure about the past though.

Sorry to derail the conversation for a moment.

How do you trigger a backing vocal pretaped, an effect, a sample etc? the drummer hits something at the proper time? a backstage guy who knows the song does it on time just like the pyro guys sends the fires off when it's time 'cause they know the song?

Yeah could be any of those.  I'm no expert here, but there's been examples I've read of.  I think Rush was manually triggering samples, maybe it was Geddy doing it? 

I can imagine tons of ways to do this, maybe just build a keyboard that you store your samples in and just click the key when appropriate.  Could also be something on the mixing board where the sound engineer is triggering it, maybe via a laptop.

Yeah, keyboards are one way to trigger them. I think even Neil Peart had some triggers on certain electronic drum pads that he triggered. Pete Trewavas at one time would use his bass pedals to trigger samples in Marillion.

[King Postwhore]

Neil's cymbals were triggers for the bag band section of his drum solo.

[hefdaddy42]

The loosest show I remember was the Scottish show that produced the Canadian Rap. But it wasn't loose from a musical standpoint. They were just punch drunk which made hilarity happen.

That's the funniest shit ever.

And they had the guy up from the audience singing Black Sabbath? Or the one where they had the stripper on stage? I was at both. 

The show I'm talking about had the guy from the audience sing on War Pigs.

I'm so jealous of you lol

[cramx3]

I remember on that Portnoy A7X tour they were using backing tracks with The Rev's vocals on at least one song. Not sure how they would have pulled that off without a click.

Could be triggered, but I'm pretty sure A7X use a click track now as their current show uses a lot of backing tracks.  Not 100% sure about the past though.

Sorry to derail the conversation for a moment.

How do you trigger a backing vocal pretaped, an effect, a sample etc? the drummer hits something at the proper time? a backstage guy who knows the song does it on time just like the pyro guys sends the fires off when it's time 'cause they know the song?

Yeah could be any of those.  I'm no expert here, but there's been examples I've read of.  I think Rush was manually triggering samples, maybe it was Geddy doing it? 

I can imagine tons of ways to do this, maybe just build a keyboard that you store your samples in and just click the key when appropriate.  Could also be something on the mixing board where the sound engineer is triggering it, maybe via a laptop.

Yeah, keyboards are one way to trigger them. I think even Neil Peart had some triggers on certain electronic drum pads that he triggered. Pete Trewavas at one time would use his bass pedals to trigger samples in Marillion.

Come to think of it, I think JR uses his keyboard to trigger one of the sounds in the instrumedley on Live at Budokan and you can see him hit the key (just a normal key on the keyboard, he must have had it programmed).  I believe it's part of the like circus music he plays during the ACOS part of it.  Like a whistle noise.  (Im going by memory here).

A pop band I've come to like over the recent years, AJR, use a physical instrument on stage to push buttons that triggers sounds.  Here's a video of them showing off that instrument (he calls it a sample machine) that has all their samples stored on it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DyugP0en2M and here's one of my clips of them using it on stage https://youtu.be/HDsiiNDDsRo?si=3hHHc74NLbR96buq&t=1283 (granted, this band still use click and backing tracks)

[crystalstars17]

Is there a show in DT's history that can be labelled as sloppy?

You have a point, haha, probably not 😁 I won't waste time repeating my preference for a pristine show as I expounded before about that, but I guess what I'm hoping for is the same level of perfection we've had in recent years. I trust that they're amazing enough to do that with or without any helping technology. But as a non-instrumentalist, can those who play instruments (other than voice) help me understand why some musicians prefer the absence of something that is meant to be a help not a hindrance? Legitimate question before anyone thinks I'm just being contrarian. 

[gborland]

Sometimes having to rigidly adhere to a click gets in the way of just going with the groove and allowing the tempo to naturally ebb and flow as fits the mood (of the performers, or the audience, or whatever).

[HOF]

I remember on that Portnoy A7X tour they were using backing tracks with The Rev's vocals on at least one song. Not sure how they would have pulled that off without a click.

Could be triggered, but I'm pretty sure A7X use a click track now as their current show uses a lot of backing tracks.  Not 100% sure about the past though.

Sorry to derail the conversation for a moment.

How do you trigger a backing vocal pretaped, an effect, a sample etc? the drummer hits something at the proper time? a backstage guy who knows the song does it on time just like the pyro guys sends the fires off when it's time 'cause they know the song?

Yeah could be any of those.  I'm no expert here, but there's been examples I've read of.  I think Rush was manually triggering samples, maybe it was Geddy doing it? 

I can imagine tons of ways to do this, maybe just build a keyboard that you store your samples in and just click the key when appropriate.  Could also be something on the mixing board where the sound engineer is triggering it, maybe via a laptop.

Yeah, keyboards are one way to trigger them. I think even Neil Peart had some triggers on certain electronic drum pads that he triggered. Pete Trewavas at one time would use his bass pedals to trigger samples in Marillion.

Come to think of it, I think JR uses his keyboard to trigger one of the sounds in the instrumedley on Live at Budokan and you can see him hit the key (just a normal key on the keyboard, he must have had it programmed).  I believe it's part of the like circus music he plays during the ACOS part of it.  Like a whistle noise.  (Im going by memory here).

A pop band I've come to like over the recent years, AJR, use a physical instrument on stage to push buttons that triggers sounds.  Here's a video of them showing off that instrument (he calls it a sample machine) that has all their samples stored on it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DyugP0en2M and here's one of my clips of them using it on stage https://youtu.be/HDsiiNDDsRo?si=3hHHc74NLbR96buq&t=1283 (granted, this band still use click and backing tracks)

Oh, and that reminds me that Steve Hogarth has a cricket bat rigged up to a MIDI device to trigger samples. Back in the day he had special gloves made for that purpose.

[cramx3]

Is there a show in DT's history that can be labelled as sloppy?

You have a point, haha, probably not 😁 I won't waste time repeating my preference for a pristine show as I expounded before about that, but I guess what I'm hoping for is the same level of perfection we've had in recent years. I trust that they're amazing enough to do that with or without any helping technology. But as a non-instrumentalist, can those who play instruments (other than voice) help me understand why some musicians prefer the absence of something that is meant to be a help not a hindrance? Legitimate question before anyone thinks I'm just being contrarian. 

I brought that question up to maybe give you some assurance that the show is not going to go from perfect to unperfect if they drop the click.

[emtee]

Depending on the type of personality you have, you can become overtaken by the incessant need to be on the click, thereby, keeping you from fully absorbing and living in the moment. It's like a slave master demanding your constant adherence. Some people handle it ok while others hate it.

Born from anti establishment roots in the 70's and counter culture defiance, rock shows were intended to be raw and somewhat imperfect but always impactful and full of energy. The use of a click kind of turns a rock show into a corporate seminar with the goal of perfection. However, in some cases, a performance can become so sterile that the very essence is lost. Just my thoughts....

[hefdaddy42]

Is there a show in DT's history that can be labelled as sloppy?

You have a point, haha, probably not 😁 I won't waste time repeating my preference for a pristine show as I expounded before about that, but I guess what I'm hoping for is the same level of perfection we've had in recent years. I trust that they're amazing enough to do that with or without any helping technology. But as a non-instrumentalist, can those who play instruments (other than voice) help me understand why some musicians prefer the absence of something that is meant to be a help not a hindrance? Legitimate question before anyone thinks I'm just being contrarian. 

It's not meant to be a help (at least, to the band members).  They don't need the click to keep in time.  It's to keep the lights and effects and backing vocals synced up, night after night.

If they weren't using piped in backing vocals, or didn't feel the need to have the lights/effects auto-synced with the music, they never would have used a click.

But since they've gone with that presentation, it makes variance from the setlist (and tempo) very difficult, if not impossible.

I play drums, and I only played live with a click a couple of times, and hated it.  It was certainly no help to me.

[bosk1]

Is there a show in DT's history that can be labelled as sloppy?

You have a point, haha, probably not 😁 I won't waste time repeating my preference for a pristine show as I expounded before about that, but I guess what I'm hoping for is the same level of perfection we've had in recent years. I trust that they're amazing enough to do that with or without any helping technology. But as a non-instrumentalist, can those who play instruments (other than voice) help me understand why some musicians prefer the absence of something that is meant to be a help not a hindrance? Legitimate question before anyone thinks I'm just being contrarian. 

We've talked about that before, but I thing gborland sums it up well.  A good many (musicians and nonmusicians) feel that a live performance is (and should be) an organic, dynamic experience, rather than a rigid, programmed experience.  A lot of factors at a show can dictate whether to push the tempo, play behind it, or make other subtle changes to enhance the experience in the moment.  Being locked into a click does not allow much of that.  So there are plenty who feel that it is a hindrance rather than "something that is meant to be a help."   At least, as far as the performance of the music is concerned--it's more a help with being able to layer the music with backing tracks, effects, lighting, and video.

EDIT:  And what Hef said.