DREAM THEATER ANNOUNCE THE RETURN OF DRUMMER MIKE PORTNOY

[WilliamMunny]

I find other people's views on music to be slightly interesting sometimes, but I've gotten to the point where very little surprises me anymore.  Someone really likes something that I think is pretty lame?  Fine, I'm glad they get a kick from it, because I don't.  The pop charts are full of hundreds of songs that people obviously like a lot but I wouldn't listen to.  Meanwhile, I listen to stuff that most people don't even realize exists, let alone appreciate.  And that's fine, too.

I guess it's for that reason that I don't quite get DTF's obsession with ranking things, and survivors, and roulettes. I still don't understand what a roulette thread is.  When it's all said and done, I see that there are things that most people apparently really like that I don't, and I like stuff that others apparently don't.  But I already knew that.  When a discussion devolves into ten posts in a row of people ranking albums, or songs, or bands, or whatever, I scroll past it all, as is my right.

Frustration comes from a different place.  Frustration is trying to find music to listen to in the car when my wife and I are travelling together.  I'd love to listen to some good prog, but it bores the hell out of her.  She's not into the pop crap that fills the airwaves, but her tastes definitely lean more mainstream.  Frustration is wishing she liked the same stuff I like because then we could enjoy it together.  But alas, different people have different tastes.

I'm glad I'm not the only one!

[Orbert]

[gzarruk]

I guess it's for that reason that I don't quite get DTF's obsession with ranking things, and survivors, and roulettes.  I still don't understand what a roulette thread is.  When it's all said and done, I see that there are things that most people apparently really like that I don't, and I like stuff that others apparently don't.  But I already knew that.  When a discussion devolves into ten posts in a row of people ranking albums, or songs, or bands, or whatever, I scroll past it all, as is my right.

Oh, man, this is 100% me as well

[Orbert]

Just to clarify, I do enjoy discussing music.  If there's something that someone really likes, I'd like to hear about it, even if it's something I'm already familiar with.  I might not like it, but maybe there's something I'm missing.  I might like it, and hearing that others like it as well gives me some validation (I know I'm a freak, but possibly somewhat less of a freak than I thought).

But rankings with no context is meaningless.  The "why" is what matters to me.

[bosk1]

But rankings with no context is meaningless.  The "why" is what matters to me.

+1000!

That's why when I post a ranking, I almost always provide explanations.  And when I start ranking threads, I usually ask for explanation and discussion.  Otherwise, who cares?  But the downside is that I feel like people look at those posts and often go "tl;dnr" and skip them.   

[Stadler]

Not me.  I'm inspired by them. 

(No, seriously, not me; I enjoy hearing WHY people like something even if I don't.  The passion with which my kid listens to her music - even though, other than Taylor Swift, most of it isn't for me - is amazing to experience.)

[naimad]

Rankings are "fun" to me. Sometimes (very often) you don't know why you like what you like. And maybe a ranking doesn't tell you the truth, but it gives you an idea of the consensus.

[TAC]

+1000!

That's why when I post a ranking, I almost always provide explanations.  And when I start ranking threads, I usually ask for explanation and discussion.  Otherwise, who cares?  But the downside is that I feel like people look at those posts and often go "tl;dnr" and skip them.   

Not me.  I'm inspired by them. 

(No, seriously, not me; I enjoy hearing WHY people like something even if I don't. 

I actually skip past the rankings with no explanations, especially if the OP is looking for some discussion. I mean, I've done it too, but generally it should be about the discussions of the rankings more so than the rankings themselves. There's really no value in a list.

[bosk1]

My ranking of posts on this page:

1.  Mine
2.  Orbert's
3.  TAC's
4.  WilliamMunny's
5.  naimad's
6.  gzarruk's
7.  Stadler's

Not necessarily in that order.

[TAC]

My ranking of posts on this page:

1.  Mine
2.  Orbert's
3.  TAC's
4.  WilliamMunny's
5.  naimad's
6.  gzarruk's
7.  Stadler's

Not necessarily in that order.

What, no explanations?


Anyway, it's nice to have you back. Hef has been pretty mean to me while you left him in charge.

[gzarruk]

My ranking of posts on this page:

1.  Mine
2.  Orbert's
3.  TAC's
4.  WilliamMunny's
5.  naimad's
6.  gzarruk's
7.  Stadler's

Not necessarily in that order.

 

[bosk1]

What, no explanations?


Anyway, it's nice to have you back. Hef has been pretty mean to me while you left him in charge.

Well, that's what we pay him for.      Good to be back.

[Dream Team]

While I'm not going to spend any energy trying to convince people to like WDADU and TA as much as I do, I do agree with OpenYourEyes311 to the extent that I really do feel they are misunderstood. It's very different from SC or BCSL, there is no "misunderstanding" those albums, they're full of bloat and silly MP vocals and constantly trying to copy Portnoy's favorite band of the month. But in the case of WDADU, the production and Charlie seem to insulate people from realizing how on fire the 4 instrumentalists are on that record. It's got my favorite playing from Myung, beautiful keyboard work from Moore, and Petrucci and Portnoy are just tearing stuff up the whole time. With TA, all the carefully crafted melodies and James' awesome performance is somewhat masked by folks disliking the lyrics or the album not being "metal" enough. My .02.

[CraftyCaleb2483]

With TA, all the carefully crafted melodies and James' awesome performance is somewhat masked by folks disliking the lyrics or the album not being "metal" enough. My .02.

Agreed on this 1000%

[bosk1]

For me, those things initially perhaps made me overlook some of the positives you mention about WDADU.  But time, maturity on my part, and James giving just all around more enjoyable vocal performances on WDADRU caused me to dig a little deeper.  The things you mention are definitely there.  And there are some good songs.  But it will still rank at the bottom of the DT discog for me because, despite some phenomenal playing and some good songs, there are some songs I don't care for, the song-writing hadn't completely gelled for them yet and it shows in places, AND the production and Charlie's vocals do not make listening to it a very enjoyable experience for me.  But there are live versions of A Fortune in Lies, The Killing Hand, Only a Matter of Time, Light Fuse and Get Away, and Status Seeker that I really like. 

And with regard to Charlie's vocals, just to clarify a bit since I have not commented on it in awhile and it is relevant here, I don't have anything against him or his singing.  I don't like his tambre or the production on his voice on this album.  And the songs and singing style do not suit him.  But that isn't entirely his fault.  He has two things going against him on this album.  One, he isn't (wasn't) a metal singer.  Two, the songs were not written with his voice and singing style in mind.  Many years later, when he recorded the O3 trilogy, he was more comfortable singing in that style and had developed a metal style, AND he wrote to his vocal strengths.  As a result, he sounds pretty good.  But on WDADU, I don't care for the vocals and find that they detract.

So, yeah, WDADU is and will likely always be the absolute bottom in my DT rankings.  But I think I am being as fair and objective about why that is as I possibly could be.

[cramx3]

Anyway, it's nice to have you back. Hef has been pretty mean to me while you left him in charge.

Well deserved!    and welcome back Bosk

As for WDADU, even with the WDADRU version which sounds better and has JLB so you can rule out Charlie being the issue, it would still rank as my least favorite album.  The songs simply just don't connect for me for the most part.

[hefdaddy42]

Hef has been pretty mean to me while you left him in charge.

STFU

[TAC]

STFU

 

[crystalstars17]

To those who said they don't understand the roulette thing, add my voice to that chorus. I know it's a game on the off topic forum that I truly have no time for, and that's about it (and that's ok).

But I will give someone a chance to educate me regarding another term: what does it mean when you guys use the term "bloated" in criticism? I've assumed it's yet another technical term about production that flies way over my head (and as such I don't care about it), but if it pertains to the actual music, please enlighten me, thx.

[hefdaddy42]

But I will give someone a chance to educate me regarding another term: what does it mean when you guys use the term "bloated" in criticism? I've assumed it's yet another technical term about production that flies way over my head (and as such I don't care about it), but if it pertains to the actual music, please enlighten me, thx.

The term "bloated" refers to when a song feels artificially lengthened to longer than it really needs to be.  Obviously this is 100% subjective, and I normally see it used by non-prog fans who would think that practically ANY song over three and a half minutes is bloated.

However, among the DT fanbase (and other prog rock/metal fanbases as well), the term usually gets applied to songs that people just feel drag too long.  For example, many people feel that way about the intro to Octavarium.

To me, it's usually just another term that people like to throw around at songs they don't particularly care for.  However, for me, DT does actually have a couple of songs that feel, well, bloated.  The most egregious example for me is A Nightmare to Remember.  Another for me is Repentance (both the intro and the outro are too long).

[ReaperKK]

To those who said they don't understand the roulette thing, add my voice to that chorus. I know it's a game on the off topic forum that I truly have no time for, and that's about it (and that's ok).

At it's core its just a thread where people send the thread creator songs to judge every "round 1". Usually the thread creator will assign a point value to each song and of all the rounds the points are tallied and a winner is announced.

I'm running one now here if you wanna check it out

[HOF]

I don't revisit WDADU often, but it's not a terrible album. Band just hadn't really found their voice yet (literally and figuratively) and were still smoothing off some rough edges. But there are some cool moments there.

[TAC]

I rate WDADU fairly high, and it's not so much that I listen to it hardly at all. It's the fact that I'd tak those songs as a group and put them up against most of their albums.

[crystalstars17]

At it's core its just a thread where people send the thread creator songs to judge every "round 1". Usually the thread creator will assign a point value to each song and of all the rounds the points are tallied and a winner is announced.

I'm running one now here if you wanna check it out

Thank you, but this is an activity I will have to sit out for right now literally due to time constraints. But I may want to participate in the future - I can think of a few songs I would love to share with others! 🙂

[TAC]

Thank you, but this is an activity I will have to sit out for right now literally due to time constraints. But I may want to participate in the future - I can think of a few songs I would love to share with others! 🙂

Well, if you're running one, yes it is very time consuming, but if you're playing, all you're required to do is to send a song to the host each round, so that's one song every 7 to 10 days. Easy.

How much you participate in the banter between rounds is up to you. It's not required, but honestly, that's usually the gold part of roulettes. It ends up being so much less about the music as it does getting to know the other members.

[crystalstars17]

The term "bloated" refers to when a song feels artificially lengthened to longer than it really needs to be.  Obviously this is 100% subjective, and I normally see it used by non-prog fans who would think that practically ANY song over three and a half minutes is bloated.

However, among the DT fanbase (and other prog rock/metal fanbases as well), the term usually gets applied to songs that people just feel drag too long.  For example, many people feel that way about the intro to Octavarium.

To me, it's usually just another term that people like to throw around at songs they don't particularly care for.  However, for me, DT does actually have a couple of songs that feel, well, bloated.  The most egregious example for me is A Nightmare to Remember.  Another for me is Repentance (both the intro and the outro are too long).

Thank you! And I will agree about Repentance, definitely a bottom-percentile song for me.

But .. the Octavarium intro?!? That's literally one of my favorite DT moments of all time 😭

[crystalstars17]

Well, if you're running one, yes it is very time consuming, but if you're playing, all you're required to do is to send a song to the host each round, so that's one song every 7 to 10 days. Easy.

How much you participate in the banter between rounds is up to you. It's not required, but honestly, that's usually the gold part of roulettes. It ends up being so much less about the music as it does getting to know the other members.

It does sound like fun.

[hefdaddy42]

Well, if you're running one, yes it is very time consuming, but if you're playing, all you're required to do is to send a song to the host each round, so that's one song every 7 to 10 days. Easy.

How much you participate in the banter between rounds is up to you. It's not required, but honestly, that's usually the gold part of roulettes. It ends up being so much less about the music as it does getting to know the other members.

Agreed.  I would never run one, for time reasons.  But they can be hella fun to participate in.  Or be a guest judge for lol

[hefdaddy42]

Thank you! And I will agree about Repentance, definitely a bottom-percentile song for me.

But .. the Octavarium intro?!? That's literally one of my favorite DT moments of all time 😭

Hey, I like it.  But it really IS pretty long, so I get some people feeling that way.

[Orbert]

For every passage that takes its time to unfold, embrace the mood, all that, there are people who feel that it goes on too long and should've been cut.  That's one kind of "bloat" as I see it.  But it's definitely subjective.

The other is when they go off into an extended instrumental that seems to come out of nowhere and, even if it's musically impressive, doesn't really add anything to the song.  It's just there because they're Dream Theater and going off on musically impressive extended instrumentals is their thing.  I see that as another kind of bloat.  If that passage wasn't there, no one would know the difference.  What's the cliché?  Inside every prog epic is a great five-minute song?

Dream Theater first got my attention back in the 90's with their blending of prog sensibilities and metal tendencies.  They've been credited for "inventing" prog metal, and it's easy to see why.  But for a while there, it really felt like they were just wanking sometimes.  Things did get pretty bloated.

[CraftyCaleb2483]

Thank you! And I will agree about Repentance, definitely a bottom-percentile song for me.

But .. the Octavarium intro?!? That's literally one of my favorite DT moments of all time 😭

Exactly!! The continuum intro is literally my top intro of all time!

[Stadler]

Thank you, but this is an activity I will have to sit out for right now literally due to time constraints. But I may want to participate in the future - I can think of a few songs I would love to share with others! 🙂

Look, I don't have the same tastes as most people here - Dream Theater may actually be the only prog-metal band I like other than Queensryche - and I historically finish in the bottom three of every roulette I'm in, but I sign up for just about every one I can because of what TAC said.  I love the discourse, I love the banter, I love the camaraderie.  And every once in a while I hit one and introduce a favorite band to someone that had missed them the first time around. 

I know others play it for real and try to actively find something the host will like; I don't do that. Music is so personal, I can't even tell what my wife and daughter would necessarily like. So I send stuff I like and hope there's something redeeming in there for the host (as well as adherence to a theme if that's part of the game). 

[Glasser]

Look, I don't have the same tastes as most people here - Dream Theater may actually be the only prog-metal band I like other than Queensryche - and I historically finish in the bottom three of every roulette I'm in, but I sign up for just about every one I can because of what TAC said.  I love the discourse, I love the banter, I love the camaraderie.  And every once in a while I hit one and introduce a favorite band to someone that had missed them the first time around. 

I know others play it for real and try to actively find something the host will like; I don't do that. Music is so personal, I can't even tell what my wife and daughter would necessarily like. So I send stuff I like and hope there's something redeeming in there for the host (as well as adherence to a theme if that's part of the game). 

Love this! My ep in Rich's roulette says it all. 

[Stadler]

And one last thought on the roulettes; it works in reverse... I've run I think two (maybe three) roulettes, and most of the stuff I got I thought was meh at best, and there were a couple that probably best belonged in the "shit" pile, let's not lie.  But there have been gems:  Someone sent Heavy Devy, and while I thought I hated his music, it clicked, and while I don't love EVERYTHING he does, what I do like, I REALLY like (his work with Anneka is just amazing, IMO).  Someone sent me Ben Folds and it made a lasting impression, and someone (I think it was Romdrums) even sent me one of HIS own songs and it blew me away.  It was so special and meant so much to me that he shared that. 

It's a connection.

[HOF]

For every passage that takes its time to unfold, embrace the mood, all that, there are people who feel that it goes on too long and should've been cut.  That's one kind of "bloat" as I see it.  But it's definitely subjective.

The other is when they go off into an extended instrumental that seems to come out of nowhere and, even if it's musically impressive, doesn't really add anything to the song.  It's just there because they're Dream Theater and going off on musically impressive extended instrumentals is their thing.  I see that as another kind of bloat.  If that passage wasn't there, no one would know the difference.  What's the cliché?  Inside every prog epic is a great five-minute song?

Dream Theater first got my attention back in the 90's with their blending of prog sensibilities and metal tendencies.  They've been credited for "inventing" prog metal, and it's easy to see why.  But for a while there, it really felt like they were just wanking sometimes.  Things did get pretty bloated.

Endless Wankery, er, I mean Endless Sacrifice.