*Official* A View from the Top of the World discussion thread

[wolfking]

What if Mike Portnoy played on the new album ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av6tcJxx0kg

Damn that was nice.

[Dedalus]

Do you guys still think DT needs a outsider producer?

Me thinking, YES! Tbh, new album is one of their best and the best of MM era. But still it's like they've been running in circle. Songs tend to sound samey, vocals are generic.

This is somewhat relative. In my recent adventures in BTBAM's discography I thought "Holy fuck these guys desperately need an outside producer to trim the many exaggerations and excesses".
So I went to check it out and saw that they actually work with an outside producer (always the same one)...
Well I think they need ANOTHER outside producer. 

[ReaPsTA]

What if Mike Portnoy played on the new album ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av6tcJxx0kg

Damn that was nice.

Actually as advertised!

[RAIN]

Transcending Time - Without a doubt, the low point of this album. In fact, I don't think it fits with the rest of the songs. There's nothing "wrong" with this song and it is quite good, but I'm getting a bit tired of their Rush tributes.

A agree and feel the same.  This song just doesn't fit the vibe of every other song on this album.  That said, it's not a bad song, and so i'm glad we have it.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

.

[ZirconBlue]

For me, I think I'm not a fan of the band writing together in the studio in LTE fashion

Writing together in the studio has been the norm since SFAM. 

[RAIN]

Do you guys still think DT needs a outsider producer?

Yes I do, however AVFTTOTW is a practically perfect album, so no....
Yes and No....

[Dedalus]

Do you guys still think DT needs a outsider producer?

Yes I do, however AVFTTOTW is a practically perfect album, so no....
Yes and No....

[DoctorAction]

A few days in and I'm feeling increasingly disappointed by the album. I love D/T but I'm not enjoying this one except the first two tracks. Was really looking forward to it.

The Alien, Answering The Call and Invisible Monster feel like realised songs but the rest? It's weird. Highly impressive virtuoso playing; bright, clear production. But feels like the worst song writing of any DT album so far, imo. The basic meat of the songs is just not engaging me. So much enthusiastic performance, presented exceptionally clearly, but thoroughly unaffecting. The vocal melodies just don't do anything. Very flat-sounding, in the main, and it's not JLB's performance. He sounds excellent.

I feel they need to write the basics of songs (verses, choruses) first until they have something. Then use their unparalleled skills at instrumental fire to enhance them with that instrumental DT magic to add to them.

I'd also love to hear how they sound if they learned the songs then recorded them without a click. I have a feeling it would help.

[Blazinarps]

A few days in and I'm feeling increasingly disappointed by the album. I love D/T but I'm not enjoying this one except the first two tracks. Was really looking forward to it.

The Alien, Answering The Call and Invisible Monster feel like realised songs but the rest? It's weird. Highly impressive virtuoso playing; bright, clear production. But feels like the worst song writing of any DT album so far, imo. The basic meat of the songs is just not engaging me. So much enthusiastic performance, presented exceptionally clearly, but thoroughly unaffecting. The vocal melodies just don't do anything. Very flat-sounding, in the main, and it's not JLB's performance. He sounds excellent.

I feel they need to write the basics of songs (verses, choruses) first until they have something. Then use their unparalleled skills at instrumental fire to enhance them with that instrumental DT magic to add to them.

I'd also love to hear how they sound if they learned the songs then recorded them without a click. I have a feeling it would help.

Music is recorded with a click. Every single one of their albums has been with a click. They will never not use one, and there's not a single reason not to.

[rab7]

A few days in and I'm feeling increasingly disappointed by the album. I love D/T but I'm not enjoying this one except the first two tracks. Was really looking forward to it.

The Alien, Answering The Call and Invisible Monster feel like realised songs but the rest? It's weird. Highly impressive virtuoso playing; bright, clear production. But feels like the worst song writing of any DT album so far, imo. The basic meat of the songs is just not engaging me. So much enthusiastic performance, presented exceptionally clearly, but thoroughly unaffecting. The vocal melodies just don't do anything. Very flat-sounding, in the main, and it's not JLB's performance. He sounds excellent.

I feel they need to write the basics of songs (verses, choruses) first until they have something. Then use their unparalleled skills at instrumental fire to enhance them with that instrumental DT magic to add to them.

I'd also love to hear how they sound if they learned the songs then recorded them without a click. I have a feeling it would help.

Music is recorded with a click. Every single one of their albums has been with a click. They will never not use one, and there's not a single reason not to.

Yeah either this guy has a vendetta against metronomes or he seems to think the band records the songs as a full band instead of individual tracks that are mixed together

[Architeuthis]

Do you guys still think DT needs a outsider producer?

Yes I do, however AVFTTOTW is a practically perfect album, so no....
Yes and No....

I say no way!  At this point in their career and as good of musicians they are,  I would think that they know more than most producers do.  They even have more experience with the music industry than many producers.  I don't think they need much help in that dept.
Maybe they should get Bob Rock, and ditch the double bass and write short concise songs. Then they could make their Black album and sell millions of records.   

[hefdaddy42]

I feel they need to write the basics of songs (verses, choruses) first until they have something. Then use their unparalleled skills at instrumental fire to enhance them with that instrumental DT magic to add to them.

That's not really what they do.

I'd also love to hear how they sound if they learned the songs then recorded them without a click. I have a feeling it would help.

That wouldn't help anything, especially with as many parts as they layer.  Each song has multiple guitar, key, and vocal parts.  Can't do it without a click.

[goo-goo]

The vocal melodies just don't do anything. Very flat-sounding, in the main, and it's not JLB's performance. He sounds excellent.

This is my main gripe about this great album. Would have been the perfect DT album if there were some better vocal melodies.

[DoctorAction]

I feel they need to write the basics of songs (verses, choruses) first until they have something. Then use their unparalleled skills at instrumental fire to enhance them with that instrumental DT magic to add to them.

That's not really what they do.

And it's really obvious on this one.

The vocal melodies just don't do anything. Very flat-sounding, in the main, and it's not JLB's performance. He sounds excellent.

This is my main gripe about this great album. Would have been the perfect DT album if there were some better vocal melodies.

Really could have been. There's a lot of energy on it.

[lovethedrake]

It's time for JP to change something up.  Go back to jazzy fusion type stuff or something. 

He's my favorite musician but nothing on this album aside from the IM solo sounds even remotely new or interesting from JP.   The same can be said for JR.  We've heard the movie score fake strings a zillion times now.

I really like the album but the lack of originality shines through a lot.   Yes it's the 15th album and for a 15th album this is incredible but it's also a message board to analyze the album and those are my thoughts. 

I really wonder what you mean with the lack of originality by both Petrucci and Rudess. In Answering the Call there's this new darkish vibe which reminds me of the Awake times, but in a new fresh framework. Also the Sleeping Giant is like nothing I've heard and compositionally they blown me away. Transcending Time... how can you honestly say that that isn't original, not one song in all their discography comes even close.  And then I'm not even talking 'bout the epic, which - as is obviously - is like no epic ever before.

I can follow when old-skool Dream Theater fans do not like the new style they've accomplished, but I cannot understand when somebody throws lack of originality at their doorstep. Both the Astonishing and a View is like nothing they've ever done... and they still are capable of keeping the sound familiar.

I think TT sounds like "the looking glass" but it's a nice tune.   

I will give you some examples:

1. The instrumental breakdown on the Title track is horribly placed and sounds exactly like every modern day DT instrumental breakdown.  It's boring.  Which is a shame because the part preceding it is so fantastic.

2. There's not a single tone or passage on the album by JP or JR that sounds different or interesting.  Nothing that makes me say Whoah...with two exceptions... the second part of the IM solo and the wha wha part on ATM. 

3. There is a lot of virtuoso "wankery" by JP and JR on this album but it sounds so tired and played out.  Some of the solos are enhanced by MM's playing but where is the creativity from JP?  Look no further than the solo on TT... that's not the JP I came to love. 


I really liked The Astonishing and Distance over Time... this one just seems forced and cookie cutter. 

Again though... The Astonishing has some dreadful songs (hymn) and DOT has some bad songs(room 137) while A View has 7 solid tracks.  It's a worthwhile effort and a fine collection of songs but I expect a lot more from DT.  The highs on this album are the lowest they have been since the self titled imo.

Also how many times do we have to hear JR do the same wanky solo with the exact same keyboard sound? Is there anybody who actually enjoys those solos?  Genuinely curious... he just seems like he's hitting random keys.  Why not write a solo with some melody to it?  It comes off totally uninspired.

[DoctorAction]

I'd also love to hear how they sound if they learned the songs then recorded them without a click. I have a feeling it would help.

That wouldn't help anything, especially with as many parts as they layer.  Each song has multiple guitar, key, and vocal parts.  Can't do it without a click.

Of course it can be done without a click. You record a take with the band playing together then keep the isolated drums as the base. Keep other layers as guides (or final takes it good enough) and build from there. It's not rocket science.

This would help give a more organic vibe, I think. As the guys are such incredible players it would hardly sound sloppy, I think.

The basic songs are my primary concern, though.

[Elite]

Music is recorded with a click.

No, that is not necessarily true.

[Ben_Jamin]

Do you guys still think DT needs a outsider producer?

Me thinking, YES! Tbh, new album is one of their best and the best of MM era. But still it's like they've been running in circle. Songs tend to sound samey, vocals are generic.

What would hope for them to accomplish with hiring an outside producer?

[Glasser]

Do they "need" an outside producer? Absolutely not. If View had the same production as ADTOE I would like it the same as I do now. With that being said I would recommend an outside ear always be a part of the overall production. If you listen to Sneap, he straight out said he doesn't like doing the surround sound mix which showed according to those who have the high res mix, correct me if I am wrong please. He really came across weird about it to me saying they could have just used Jimmy T's mix. I know he said it tongue in cheek but I'm sure there was some truth to it. Sneap however did a killer job when all is said and done.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

this is probably a dumb question but I never got much into production, audio and mixing...

What exactly does the producer (JP) do if Andy Sneap and Jimmy Meslin are in charge of mixing and engineering? The way they were describing what they did on the release party left me thinking these guys are basically responsible for how the album sounds.

[porcacultor]

this is probably a dumb question but I never got much into production, audio and mixing...

What exactly does the producer (JP) do if Andy Sneap and Jimmy Meslin are in charge of mixing and engineering? The way they were describing what they did on the release party left me thinking these guys are basically responsible for how the album sounds.

It's not a dumb question at all, especially because it's not a clear-cut issue. It depends on the type of music (in the hip hop world, a producer is pretty much "the band" as they work on the instrumental beats, but that's another issue), but for a band like Dream Theater, JP as the producer has more of a creative role.

I can't say for sure, but I believe some of his attributions as a producer include: making a more final decision on how things should sound like (perhaps with prior references, like "this part should sound like this artist"); the overall musical style (and corresponding sonic choices to be complied with by the recording and mixing engineers); perhaps even things like the track order. In brief, I think it's someone with a "final say" on how the record should ultimately sound like.

Seeing as JP is also a member of the band, I'd see him as a sort of core individual in the process. He gets ideas from and writes with the other members, but he'll sort of have the final say among them, like "yes, this is it". Then he'll relay his ideas to the engineers, who definitely have some creative leeway, but I think JP as the producer has the power to say "this is it" or "I'd actually prefer it another way".

Hope that makes sense!

EDIT: This isn't to say he's some kind of dictator (or that producers are in general), it's just that they're entrusted by the other parties with having a more definitive opinion on the outcome of the album.

[IDontNotDoThings]

I'd also love to hear how they sound if they learned the songs then recorded them without a click. [...] This would help give a more organic vibe, I think.

I never understood the mindset that not playing in time somehow makes the music more real. Either the playing is tight enough that I don't notice, or it's noticeably out of time which is distracting. Aside from some particularly loose styles of music, I've never really felt that having a click makes music less organic.

this is probably a dumb question but I never got much into production, audio and mixing...

What exactly does the producer (JP) do if Andy Sneap and Jimmy Meslin are in charge of mixing and engineering? The way they were describing what they did on the release party left me thinking these guys are basically responsible for how the album sounds.

As simply as I could put it, the producer helps sort out the musical direction of the songs (ideally in a way the artist agrees with) & tells the other personnel what to do to achieve that, the engineer operates the machinery in the studio to help record it, & the mixer will go in after the recording process to balance the instruments' volume & add effects.

I think it's a good change of pace and gives the album some much needed variety. It probably could have been integrated in the tracklist better (immediately following is the chugg-heavy ATM), but it's pretty nice, and helps elevate the album from being non-stop, heavy and dark riffage.

I agree with the bolded part. I like that they included a change of pace from the heavier tracks, but it comes in at a weird spot in the tracklist. I think I would've put it at track 3 between Answering The Call & Invisible Monster, but it works ok as it is.

[Glasser]

this is probably a dumb question but I never got much into production, audio and mixing...

What exactly does the producer (JP) do if Andy Sneap and Jimmy Meslin are in charge of mixing and engineering? The way they were describing what they did on the release party left me thinking these guys are basically responsible for how the album sounds.

It's not a dumb question at all, especially because it's not a clear-cut issue. It depends on the type of music (in the hip hop world, a producer is pretty much "the band" as they work on the instrumental beats, but that's another issue), but for a band like Dream Theater, JP as the producer has more of a creative role.

I can't say for sure, but I believe some of his attributions as a producer include: making a more final decision on how things should sound like (perhaps with prior references, like "this part should sound like this artist"); the overall musical style (and corresponding sonic choices to be complied with by the recording and mixing engineers); perhaps even things like the track order. In brief, I think it's someone with a "final say" on how the record should ultimately sound like.

Seeing as JP is also a member of the band, I'd see him as a sort of core individual in the process. He gets ideas from and writes with the other members, but he'll sort of have the final say among them, like "yes, this is it". Then he'll relay his ideas to the engineers, who definitely have some creative leeway, but I think JP as the producer has the power to say "this is it" or "I'd actually prefer it another way".

Hope that makes sense!

Perfectly said!!! The executive producer is essentially the boss and Sneap and Jimmy are his hands so to speak as they physically engineer JP's vision to its final product.

[Kotowboy]

this is probably a dumb question but I never got much into production, audio and mixing...

What exactly does the producer (JP) do if Andy Sneap and Jimmy Meslin are in charge of mixing and engineering? The way they were describing what they did on the release party left me thinking these guys are basically responsible for how the album sounds.

Generally speaking :

• A Producer will tell the engineer how he wants the instruments and vocals to sound. Also John will suggest arrangements and tones etc to the band...

• The Engineer operates the desk and does all the technical stuff like EQ / Compression / Limiting / Delays / operating the Pro Tools etc.

A lot of 'producers' have their own engineer as they don't actually know how to operate the desk and outboard effects.

• A mixer takes the final multitrack recordings and balances them. Maybe does extra panning. But it's essentially the volumes of everything.

The drumkit SHOULD be balanced going to 'tape' but not always.

• The Mastering engineer will take the final Left and Right 2 track - and do final sparkle and balancing. Making it sound the same on every system etc.

Mastering is the one that I understand the least as I can't get my stuff to sound the same on everything. It's an art for sure.

[Glasser]

this is probably a dumb question but I never got much into production, audio and mixing...

What exactly does the producer (JP) do if Andy Sneap and Jimmy Meslin are in charge of mixing and engineering? The way they were describing what they did on the release party left me thinking these guys are basically responsible for how the album sounds.

Generally speaking :

• A Producer will tell the engineer how he wants the instruments and vocals to sound. Also John will suggest arrangements and tones etc to the band...

• The Engineer operates the desk and does all the technical stuff like EQ / Compression / Limiting / Delays / operating the Pro Tools etc.

A lot of 'producers' have their own engineer as they don't actually know how to operate the desk and outboard effects.

• A mixer takes the final multitrack recordings and balances them. Maybe does extra panning. But it's essentially the volumes of everything.

The drumkit SHOULD be balanced going to 'tape' but not always.

• The Mastering engineer will take the final Left and Right 2 track - and do final sparkle and balancing. Making it sound the same on every system etc.

Mastering is the one that I understand the least as I can't get my stuff to sound the same on everything. It's an art for sure.

Yes, mastering is an entirely separate art. I do mastering and its tedious but I love it. Is puts the final gloss on the music and can make or break a great mix. I would have loved to master Views high res mix. It would be warmer with plenty of dynamics rather than brick walled.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Thanks for the responses- i sort of understand it  .

So in DT's case, since JP is a key songwriter (with JR) and the guitar is the most important instrument, is the self appointed Producer role sort of like him saying that he, as the key musical figure in the band, already knows what he wants the album to sound like and therefore doesn't really need or want a producer in there telling him what to do?

[Glasser]

NO. No dynamics, the music sounds on the brink of digital distortion/clipping. Looks like a block.




YES. Notice the "spikes" that show dynamics and room for the music to breathe.


***This is the best I found to show the difference.

[Dedalus]

It's time for JP to change something up.  Go back to jazzy fusion type stuff or something. 

He's my favorite musician but nothing on this album aside from the IM solo sounds even remotely new or interesting from JP.   The same can be said for JR.  We've heard the movie score fake strings a zillion times now.

I really like the album but the lack of originality shines through a lot.   Yes it's the 15th album and for a 15th album this is incredible but it's also a message board to analyze the album and those are my thoughts. 

I really wonder what you mean with the lack of originality by both Petrucci and Rudess. In Answering the Call there's this new darkish vibe which reminds me of the Awake times, but in a new fresh framework. Also the Sleeping Giant is like nothing I've heard and compositionally they blown me away. Transcending Time... how can you honestly say that that isn't original, not one song in all their discography comes even close.  And then I'm not even talking 'bout the epic, which - as is obviously - is like no epic ever before.

I can follow when old-skool Dream Theater fans do not like the new style they've accomplished, but I cannot understand when somebody throws lack of originality at their doorstep. Both the Astonishing and a View is like nothing they've ever done... and they still are capable of keeping the sound familiar.

I think TT sounds like "the looking glass" but it's a nice tune.   

I will give you some examples:

1. The instrumental breakdown on the Title track is horribly placed and sounds exactly like every modern day DT instrumental breakdown.  It's boring.  Which is a shame because the part preceding it is so fantastic.

2. There's not a single tone or passage on the album by JP or JR that sounds different or interesting.  Nothing that makes me say Whoah...with two exceptions... the second part of the IM solo and the wha wha part on ATM. 

3. There is a lot of virtuoso "wankery" by JP and JR on this album but it sounds so tired and played out.  Some of the solos are enhanced by MM's playing but where is the creativity from JP?  Look no further than the solo on TT... that's not the JP I came to love. 


I really liked The Astonishing and Distance over Time... this one just seems forced and cookie cutter. 

Again though... The Astonishing has some dreadful songs (hymn) and DOT has some bad songs(room 137) while A View has 7 solid tracks.  It's a worthwhile effort and a fine collection of songs but I expect a lot more from DT.  The highs on this album are the lowest they have been since the self titled imo.

Also how many times do we have to hear JR do the same wanky solo with the exact same keyboard sound? Is there anybody who actually enjoys those solos?  Genuinely curious... he just seems like he's hitting random keys.  Why not write a solo with some melody to it?  It comes off totally uninspired.

I'm curious about one thing: what is your opinion about TOT?

[lovethedrake]

I respect TOT but it's definitely not my favorite style of music.  I still consider it to be the last of the DT in their "prime" albums though.  It's inspired and a wild adventure but I prefer the more proggy side of DT.  I have TOT middle of the pack in my rankings.  Octavarium is where I feel they started to decline.

I've enjoyed the last 4 releases with TA and DoT being my two favorite of the MM era by far.

I do like A View, I just think it could have been so much better and the lack of "wow" moments surprises me.   It's consistently solid though.  No duds... I just think it's extremely safe.

[jayvee3]

I think it's a good change of pace and gives the album some much needed variety. It probably could have been integrated in the tracklist better (immediately following is the chugg-heavy ATM), but it's pretty nice, and helps elevate the album from being non-stop, heavy and dark riffage.

TT is my favourite track, but I do agree that when listening to the album as a whole, it possibly could have a different track list position. I feel it would have worked really well as track 6 - have Invisible Monster as the nice, medium tempo, then have Sleeping Giant and Awaken the Master as a relentless 1-2 punch (a bit like Bridges in the Sky and Outcry). Then TT would have been a fresh change of pace before the epic...

[JPX]

Do you guys still think DT needs a outsider producer?

100%, unequivocally yes.

Bob Rock.

[Ben_Jamin]

Do they "need" an outside producer? Absolutely not. If View had the same production as ADTOE I would like it the same as I do now. With that being said I would recommend an outside ear always be a part of the overall production. If you listen to Sneap, he straight out said he doesn't like doing the surround sound mix which showed according to those who have the high res mix, correct me if I am wrong please. He really came across weird about it to me saying they could have just used Jimmy T's mix. I know he said it tongue in cheek but I'm sure there was some truth to it. Sneap however did a killer job when all is said and done.

He also said he doesn't see a point to 5.1 surround sound mix during the Q&A in the listening party.

How many people are actually going to listen to a 5.1 mix? How many people bought the edition with the DVD?

I get his point.

[jammindude]

Just got my boxed set #3285/4000.

Tonight will be my first spin of the album. Other than a single spin of TA and IM when they were first released, I'm going in completely blind.

I'll post my initial thoughts later tonight

[TAC]

Just got my boxed set #3285/4000.

Tonight will be my first spin of the album. Other than a single spin of TA and IM when they were first released, I'm going in completely blind.

I'll post my initial thoughts later tonight

You need to J-Dude Show it on youtube!

C'mon wooly sweater!