Portnoy's First Four VS Mangini's First Four

[Stadler]

I prefer the MM first four.  By that time DT has come a long way as musicians, and Labrie has more freedom to be himself and call the shots on his vocal delivery. 
The band seemed to have a new energy after the somewhat darker vibe of BC&SL and SC. (although I love Systematic Chaos).
I love all four of the Mangini albums from start to finish.  As far as the MP albums, I love I&W and Awake, but WDADU and FII are my two least favorite DT albums.

On a side note.  I like TA better than SFAM by far!

My jury is out as to whether this is a good thing or not.   

[lovethedrake]

It's not a landslide because not everyone loves I&W or Awake. They are very enjoyable (although there are couple songs in Awake I skip which is very rare for a DT album), but I just prefer how they evolved as they went. Ya, I&W was what got them going, but it doesn't make it a favorite because of that. It's all subjective anyway, so a comment of "not understanding how it could even be close", makes no sense to me. Here is my ranking of those 8.

ADTOE
FII
D/T
TA
Awake
DT
I&W

WDaDU (don't really listen to it)

The beauty of DT is that it is so veritable and yet still so DT.

Everybody is welcome to their opinion and there is no right of wrong in music.  However, the current poll is 71-24 and I think that's likely a good representation of the die hard dream theater fanbase.

It's funny that your best on the list is my worst by far and your second worst is my best by far, dream theater has certainly always given an inspired effort which is something we can all appreciate no matter the album.

[Kotowboy]

I don't get how this could be close at all.
Portnoy's First Four by a long shot and I'm not a big fan of their debut and FII.

And therein lies the cognitive bias of the forum.

[darkshade]

76 - 24 IS a landslide.

[WildRanger]

76 - 24 IS a landslide.

As it should be!

[Stadler]

I don't get how this could be close at all.
Portnoy's First Four by a long shot and I'm not a big fan of their debut and FII.

And therein lies the cognitive bias of the forum.

How is that cognitive bias?  If he said it WITHOUT data, sure, but the data is backing him up. There's a point where "cognitive bias" becomes "truth".

[gzarruk]

I think nostalgia is also a big factor.

I'd say IAW and Awake are probably ranked higher than most MM era albums, but those last 4 are much more consistent than the first 4, which have WDADU and FII.

[pg1067]

I think nostalgia is also a big factor.

I'd say IAW and Awake are probably ranked higher than most MM era albums, but those last 4 are much more consistent than the first 4, which have WDADU and FII.

Well...three of them are.

While I'm not among them, there are lots of folks who don't view FII as a drop off after Awake.  For those folks, you have a raw debut with a different singer and three straight excellent albums.  As my comment on page 1 indicates, I'd rather have the group that contains two epic albums, one good album and one below average album over a group that contains three good albums and massive stinker.  And yeah...nostalgia certainly plays into it to some degree.

[IgnotusPerIgnotium]

I'd say IAW and Awake are probably ranked higher than most MM era albums, but those last 4 are much more consistent than the first 4, which have WDADU and FII.

It's easy to see why. It's about the circumstances and musical position of the band. If we see WDADU and FII as less 'good' albums it's because..well the first it's a debut album -I mean what expectations could anyone have and FII was a notorious album for the band, having a lot of personal issues to deal with as well as conflicts with the label.
The albums that JP produced may be consistent but they are widely considered by many to lack variety and having also some controversial mixing problems. So the MP 4 albums marked a growing period for the band as for the 4 MM albums mark a search for identity.

[hunnus2000]

I think it's as simple as those who prefer MP over MM.

[lovethedrake]

I think it's as simple as those who prefer MP over MM.

I don't think so.... 90's DT + SDOIT is better than anything since imo but I would take the astonishing and DoT over the last 3 portnoy albums.   

[pg1067]

I think it's as simple as those who prefer MP over MM.

I disagree.  The difference has virtually nothing to do with who played drums.  It has much more to do with who played keyboards (KM and DS on the first four versus JR on the most recent four) and a different singer on the debut and the band being in a vastly different stage of its career (new band versus established band with absolute control over what it does).

[Dedalus]

I think nostalgia is also a big factor.

I'd say IAW and Awake are probably ranked higher than most MM era albums, but those last 4 are much more consistent than the first 4, which have WDADU and FII.

Well......  considering that I&W is at the highest level of the band's discography, as I do, the other three records are well below. Awake certainly down and WDADU and FII even more.

I always say that and I will repeat it. The first time I heard Awake, after I&W, I was VERY disappointed. Basically I was avid for an I&W part 2.
Today I have changed my mind, but I still think that Awake is not up to the task as a successor to I&W.

[darkshade]

but we did eventually get IaW pt 2, and it wasn't anywhere near as good as Awake, which is an underrated prog metal classic now.

[TheCountOfNYC]

I think it's as simple as those who prefer MP over MM.

Definitely not. I prefer Portnoy but picked the Mangini albums.

[Elite]

I think nostalgia is also a big factor.

I'd say IAW and Awake are probably ranked higher than most MM era albums, but those last 4 are much more consistent than the first 4, which have WDADU and FII.

and the last for have the self-titled and TA, the latter of which being an especially divisive album in the fanbase, so what's the point there?

I think it's as simple as those who prefer MP over MM.

No, it's not. A better statement would be preferring having MP or not having him at all, but that statement also doesn't really hold up.

[cfmoran13]

Portnoy's first 4 (or any 4) beat Mangini's first 4.  The mere existence of The Astonishing will keep Mangini's albums from surpassing any other album run DT had.  That album is still unlistenable for me.  Almost 30 years later, I&W is still a beast.  And, although I'm not a huge fan of WDaDU, I'll still take that album over TA.

[pg1067]

Portnoy's first 4 (or any 4) beat Mangini's first 4.  The mere existence of The Astonishing will keep Mangini's albums from surpassing any other album run DT had.  That album is still unlistenable for me.  Almost 30 years later, I&W is still a beast.  And, although I'm not a huge fan of WDaDU, I'll still take that album over TA.

I think I'd take the four MM albums over TOT through BC&SL.  My bottom three are 12. BC&SL; 13. SC; 14. TA.  The presence of BC&SL and SC in that group probably outweighs the presence of TA in the other group.

[hunnus2000]

Portnoy's first 4 (or any 4) beat Mangini's first 4. The mere existence of The Astonishing will keep Mangini's albums from surpassing any other album run DT had.  That album is still unlistenable for me.  Almost 30 years later, I&W is still a beast.  And, although I'm not a huge fan of WDaDU, I'll still take that album over TA.

I get if people don't like things because of personal tastes. But, people truly miss out on moments that shine. MM had some wonderful moments on TA and because some find "unlistenable" they can never know.....

[Elite]

Yeah, 'unlistenable' is rubbish in this context.

[Enigmachine]

Like, I understand why some would consider the album a bit boring or cheesy, cause yeah it's on that more broadway angle and that doesn't appeal to everyone. But... unlistenable? I find it odd that someone who likes Dream Theater generally would hear Dystopian Overture, The Gift of Music and A Better Life and go oh my god, please turn that noise off.

[gzarruk]

Like, I understand why some would consider the album a bit boring or cheesy, cause yeah it's on that more broadway angle and that doesn't appeal to everyone. But... unlistenable? I find it odd that someone who likes Dream Theater generally would hear Dystopian Overture, The Gift of Music and A Better Life and go oh my god, please turn that noise off.

All of this and a lot more. Disc 2 alone has Moment of Betrayal and the two-punch The Walking Shadow and My Last Farewell, all classic DT magic.

[TAC]

I get that the entirety of TA might be a bit much, but anyone should be able to pick 10-12 tracks that stand up.

[pg1067]

It's not unlistenable, but I've listened to it enough and not found much to latch onto, so I don't really care to go back.

10-12 tracks?  No way.  There's 34 tracks, and 5 are NOMAC tracks, so there's 29 "real" songs.  There's one song that reminded me of a Dregs song that I liked, but after that, there are about 25 songs that just blend together and maybe 2-3 others that I'd actually go out of my way to listen to again.

I respect them for doing it, and I'm happy there are folks who like it.  It just didn't hit with me, and that's ok.

[TAC]

Yup, that's ok.

[Volante99]

Images & Words
Awake

(gap)

A Dramatic Turn of Events

(big gap)

Falling into Infinity
Distance Over Time
When Dream and Day Unite
Dream Theater
The Astonishing

[cfmoran13]

When I said "unlistenable", that's obviously just for me.  That's how I feel.  I don't like the album at all.  I tried.  I really did.  I know some people absolutely love it.  I'm happy for them.  I just find it to be very bloated and over-indulgent.  The only song I've listened to from it in the past 3-4 years is "Our New World".  And, it's the version with Lzzy Hale.  Truthfully, I don't really foresee myself ever going back to give it another try.  I simply just don't have the time to dedicate to listen to the entire thing.  It's not like I enjoy being able to say there's an album from DT that I absolutely hate.

[darkshade]

When I said "unlistenable", that's obviously just for me.  That's how I feel.  I don't like the album at all.  I tried.  I really did.  I know some people absolutely love it.  I'm happy for them.  I just find it to be very bloated and over-indulgent.  The only song I've listened to from it in the past 3-4 years is "Our New World".  And, it's the version with Lzzy Hale.  Truthfully, I don't really foresee myself ever going back to give it another try.  I simply just don't have the time to dedicate to listen to the entire thing.  It's not like I enjoy being able to say there's an album from DT that I absolutely hate.

I always swap out the Lizzy Hale version of ONW the rare times I whip out The Admonishing. It's just a little bit better, and she kills it like JLB doesn't. She should have done co-lead vocals with JLB on TA, it might have made the album more listenable for me. I can imagine her vocals on the title track. Maybe throw in that guy from the Neal Morse Band (Eric?)

[geeeemo]

When I said "unlistenable", that's obviously just for me.  That's how I feel.  I don't like the album at all.  I tried.  I really did.  I know some people absolutely love it.  I'm happy for them.  I just find it to be very bloated and over-indulgent.  The only song I've listened to from it in the past 3-4 years is "Our New World".  And, it's the version with Lzzy Hale.  Truthfully, I don't really foresee myself ever going back to give it another try.  I simply just don't have the time to dedicate to listen to the entire thing.  It's not like I enjoy being able to say there's an album from DT that I absolutely hate.

I always swap out the Lizzy Hale version of ONW the rare times I whip out The Admonishing. It's just a little bit better, and she kills it like JLB doesn't. She should have done co-lead vocals with JLB on TA, it might have made the album more listenable for me. I can imagine her vocals on the title track. Maybe throw in that guy from the Neal Morse Band (Eric?)

Eh. I was at the show where she performed with DT. Not a fan. You have James beautiful voice and her heavier one. He has a better girl voice then she does!

[Enigmachine]

If I remember correctly, Hale is one of those vocalists who, despite being a woman, has a fairly masculine voice, much like Doro or Ida Haukland from Triosphere. Meanwhile, much like Geddy Lee (who I genuinely thought was a woman on my first listen when I didn't know who he was), James is kind of the reverse, having a pretty feminine singing voice for a dude. It's why the combination feels a little off, given that Faythe's lines are generally very demure, which James has the capability of pulling off effectively, much like the Victoria lines in Scenes. There's value in subtlety and having Hale belt out Faythe lines all over the album as she does on the single would've been pretty silly. Honestly, I far prefer the original for that reason, the edit just feels very forced to me. Good singer, but wrong for the song.

[KevShmev]

If I remember correctly, Hale is one of those vocalists who, despite being a woman, has a fairly masculine voice, much like Doro or Ida Haukland from Triosphere. Meanwhile, much like Geddy Lee (who I genuinely thought was a woman on my first listen when I didn't know who he was), James is kind of the reverse, having a pretty feminine singing voice for a dude. It's why the combination feels a little off, given that Faythe's lines are generally very demure, which James has the capability of pulling off effectively, much like the Victoria lines in Scenes. There's value in subtlety and having Hale belt out Faythe lines all over the album as she does on the single would've been pretty silly. Honestly, I far prefer the original for that reason, the edit just feels very forced to me. Good singer, but wrong for the song.

Totally agree.  I listened to that version twice and came away unimpressed both times.  It didn't help that the edits were awful (the original is only a little over 4 minutes and taking out little bits here and there was jarring...terrible decision), but every time Hale would sing, I would cringe and pray for the return of JLB.  Not a bad voice, but she did too many inflections that changed the melodies, and not in a good way. Gimme the original any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[Dream Team]

Rethinking my position carefully . . . I listen to the MM albums more often because of burnout on the old ones. If I had to rank them:

Images
The Astonishing (VERY difficult to rank, could be 1 or 4)
A Dramatic Turn of Events
When Dream and Day Unite
Dream Theater
Awake
Distance Over Time
Falling Into Infinity

So I guess technically I could have voted for the MM era . . .

Just think, if DT15 is as good as advertised, will we have a vote for the MP5 vs the MM5?  Beating SFAM is a tall task . . .

[TheCountOfNYC]

Rethinking my position carefully . . . I listen to the MM albums more often because of burnout on the old ones. If I had to rank them:

Images
The Astonishing (VERY difficult to rank, could be 1 or 4)
A Dramatic Turn of Events
When Dream and Day Unite
Dream Theater
Awake
Distance Over Time
Falling Into Infinity

So I guess technically I could have voted for the MM era . . .

Just think, if DT15 is as good as advertised, will we have a vote for the MP5 vs the MM5?  Beating SFAM is a tall task . . .

I think the IaW/Awake/SFaM trio is too much to overcome.