DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)

[WilliamMunny]

Is he someone who's opinion should matter to anyone?

He's been a huge DT fan since he was a kid, so he's not just some guy who heard it and thought it was good, he knows what a good DT album sounds like.

That and the fact that he's heard the new album and you haven't, so you might as well take his opinion anyway.

Nope.  I like what I like and what I like isn't related to what others like in any way, shape or form.    TAC and I have this discussion all the time; we have a LOT of bands in common that we adore, and yet my "favorite" song lists are invariably very close to his "least favorite" song lists.   

If we listened to what others said and liked, we'd be at the Justin Beiber Forum, not the Dream Theater Forum.   No offense to him, he's probably an AMAZING player, but I'm glad he likes it, but that's as far as it goes.  Mike Portnoy is top four favorite drummers of all time and probably top five favorite musicians of all time, and yet he rates "OK Computer" as one of his ten best records ever, and to me it's a steaming pile of unlistenable horse feces (and I'm being kind).

Just for the sake of conversation, what would you define as a pile of 'listenable' horse feces? 

[TAC]

Winger's first album.

[WilliamMunny]

Winger's first album.

LOL!

I LOVE Winger, but I will concede that the first album is probably my least-listened to album in their catalog.

[Enigmachine]

Certain musical textures you just can't get without an extended range guitar. It might not necessarily be to everyone's liking but there's a significant enough market for bands like Periphery, Animals As Leaders, Meshuggah etc. to show the 8 string as a legitimate instrument in its own right. It's not really like having a 17th drum because when you go down that low, you basically can't use the same kind of riffs you can with a 6 string if you want to maintain clarity. Six strings might be enough for the likes of Ritchie Blackmore, Michael Schenker and Randy Rhoads because... their style didn't necessitate extended range guitars.

[CDrice]

Am I the only one who doesn't care about the whole 8-string thing?

Nope. To me, it's like, Oh Mangini has a 17th drum.

I'm kind of neutral about it too. Its going to give him a bit more options, but I'm not expecting it to have a dramatic impact in terms of his playing or the band's overall sound. Now, if he'd said that he played a mandolin on the album, that'd be something else 

[Dedalus]

Is he someone who's opinion should matter to anyone?

He's been a huge DT fan since he was a kid, so he's not just some guy who heard it and thought it was good, he knows what a good DT album sounds like.

That and the fact that he's heard the new album and you haven't, so you might as well take his opinion anyway.

Nope.  I like what I like and what I like isn't related to what others like in any way, shape or form.    TAC and I have this discussion all the time; we have a LOT of bands in common that we adore, and yet my "favorite" song lists are invariably very close to his "least favorite" song lists.   

If we listened to what others said and liked, we'd be at the Justin Beiber Forum, not the Dream Theater Forum.   No offense to him, he's probably an AMAZING player, but I'm glad he likes it, but that's as far as it goes.  Mike Portnoy is top four favorite drummers of all time and probably top five favorite musicians of all time, and yet he rates "OK Computer" as one of his ten best records ever, and to me it's a steaming pile of unlistenable horse feces (and I'm being kind).

OK.

When you voice your opinion about the new record, I'm not going to stick around saying: Who is this guy? Who is Stadler? Why the hell should I pay attention to his opinion? Why is his opinion worth anything? I don't care about your opinion, I liked what I liked.

My point is: why such resistance to a slight opinion given by a guitarist who works with JP? Not that it is ultra important, but all this effort on the last pages to disqualify is unnecessary.

[pg1067]

I've never heard of him but it's better than someone saying "I've heard the album and it sucks"

Honestly, not really.  I could find plenty of people who think SFAM sucks.

Jason was a teacher at all three JPGU camps..

That oughta tell you enough, to be fair...

"Jason is a super-shredder. . . .

The highlighted greatly devalues his opinion in my eyes.  Also, his professional connection to JP (I'm assuming that's the "JP" in whatever "JPGU" is) tells me that, if he didn't like it, he wouldn't be publicly honest about it.

Am I the only one who doesn't care about the whole 8-string thing?

Nope.  I couldn't care less if a 20-string guitar or a 3-string guitar or a kazoo is used.

That and the fact that he's heard the new album and you haven't, so you might as well take his opinion anyway.

What does that have to do with anything?  I didn't know who he was previously and I now have some information about him.  That information tells me that his perspective on things is probably different from mine such that his opinion isn't meaningful to me.

When you voice your opinion about the new record, I'm not going to stick around saying: Who is this guy? Who is Stadler? Why the hell should I pay attention to his opinion? Why is his opinion worth anything?

If reviews or the opinions of others are at all meaningful to you (and I don't know if they are or aren't and am not say one way or the other whether they should be), then you ABSOLUTELY SHOULD be questioning who the reviewer is and why his or her opinion should be meaningful to you.  If a particular critic expresses views about music or movies or whatever that are generally in line with your own opinions, then you ought to value that critic's opinions more highly than someone you've never heard of and know nothing about.  It can even work in reverse.  If we suddenly unearth a lost Yes album from the '70s and Robert Cristgau says it's great, that means I'm probably not going to like it.

My point is: why such resistance to a slight opinion given by a guitarist who works with JP? Not that it is ultra important, but all this effort on the last pages to disqualify is unnecessary.

I don't think anyone resisted or tried to "disqualify" anything.  I started this by simply asking a question that was tantamount to "who the heck is this guy?"  As a result, I learned some things about him that tell me that his opinion probably isn't valuable to me.  However, others may have learned those same things and reached the opposite conclusion.

[Stadler]

I'm kind of with PG on this.

[Enigmachine]

Hot damn, all Jason Richardson did was state his opinion on the album, then a tide of "well, who gives a shit about what he thinks?". You can take or leave what he thinks about the album, but some of the active diminishing of his opinion seems a bit mean-spirited and contrarian. I get it, it might not be perhaps the most insightful comment about the new album but 1. we haven't really got much else to talk about, so for me this is another little nugget of hype and 2. you don't have to point out that you don't care. Just shrug and move on. Much like Dedalus said, if someone voiced their opinion of the album to you and you flat out said "Nope. I like what I like and what I like isn't related to what others like in any way, shape or form" or "I don't care what you have to say because you play / listen to x style of music", it would probably feel a bit rude. Granted, Jason probably doesn't frequent the forum, but still. This is a guy who knows his craft choosing to complement the band when he didn't have to, like MarkFitDT said. Even if I didn't think his opinion held much weight, I'd at least try to stick with the mindset of "great that he's enjoying it, hope we'll feel the same way" rather than participating in active dismissal.

[MarkFitDT]

Hot damn, all Jason Richardson did was state his opinion on the album, then a tide of "well, who gives a shit about what he thinks?". You can take or leave what he thinks about the album, but some of the active diminishing of his opinion seems a bit mean-spirited and contrarian. I get it, it might not be perhaps the most insightful comment about the new album but 1. we haven't really got much else to talk about, so for me this is another little nugget of hype and 2. you don't have to point out that you don't care. Just shrug and move on. Much like Dedalus said, if someone voiced their opinion of the album to you and you flat out said "Nope. I like what I like and what I like isn't related to what others like in any way, shape or form" or "I don't care what you have to say because you play / listen to x style of music", it would probably feel a bit rude. Granted, Jason probably doesn't frequent the forum, but still. This is a guy who knows his craft choosing to complement the band when he didn't have to, like MarkFitDT said. Even if I didn't think his opinion held much weight, I'd at least try to stick with the mindset of "great that he's enjoying it, hope we'll feel the same way" rather than participating in active dismissal.

I didn't realise how much one positive sentence from someone who has heard the album was going to irk some people! Its a thread about the new album so thought it valid to post his comment on here especially when none of us, save Noxon, have heard anything from the album. i didn't quite expect the "Who the f**k is he", "I don't give a s**t what he thinks" and "he's only doing it because he doesn't want to bite the hand that feeds him" comments when posting a positive comment! Understand not everyone will hear things the same way as him (and no doubt there will be a forensic analysis and a multitude of opinions on here when we do hear it both good and bad) but its far better than "well that was a steaming pile of s**t"!!

[gzarruk]

Hot damn, all Jason Richardson did was state his opinion on the album, then a tide of "well, who gives a shit about what he thinks?". You can take or leave what he thinks about the album, but some of the active diminishing of his opinion seems a bit mean-spirited and contrarian. I get it, it might not be perhaps the most insightful comment about the new album but 1. we haven't really got much else to talk about, so for me this is another little nugget of hype and 2. you don't have to point out that you don't care. Just shrug and move on. Much like Dedalus said, if someone voiced their opinion of the album to you and you flat out said "Nope. I like what I like and what I like isn't related to what others like in any way, shape or form" or "I don't care what you have to say because you play / listen to x style of music", it would probably feel a bit rude. Granted, Jason probably doesn't frequent the forum, but still. This is a guy who knows his craft choosing to complement the band when he didn't have to, like MarkFitDT said. Even if I didn't think his opinion held much weight, I'd at least try to stick with the mindset of "great that he's enjoying it, hope we'll feel the same way" rather than participating in active dismissal.

I didn't realise how much one positive sentence from someone who has heard the album was going to irk some people! Its a thread about the new album so thought it valid to post his comment on here especially when none of us, save Noxon, have heard anything from the album. i didn't quite expect the "Who the f**k is he", "I don't give a s**t what he thinks" and "he's only doing it because he doesn't want to bite the hand that feeds him" comments when posting a positive comment! Understand not everyone will hear things the same way as him (and no doubt there will be a forensic analysis and a multitude of opinions on here when we do hear it both good and bad) but its far better than "well that was a steaming pile of s**t"!!

Yeah, all of this. I also posted about a guy who confirmed they listened to the whole 8 string song, which we now know is ATM, and an intro snippet to TA at JP's camp, and the conversation turned into "I don't care about 8 string guitars at all". I guess we're just too used to seeing the fault in everything that is posted here

Can't wait to have the first single released. Hope it's this friday

[TM172003]

Hot damn, all Jason Richardson did was state his opinion on the album, then a tide of "well, who gives a shit about what he thinks?". You can take or leave what he thinks about the album, but some of the active diminishing of his opinion seems a bit mean-spirited and contrarian. I get it, it might not be perhaps the most insightful comment about the new album but 1. we haven't really got much else to talk about, so for me this is another little nugget of hype and 2. you don't have to point out that you don't care. Just shrug and move on. Much like Dedalus said, if someone voiced their opinion of the album to you and you flat out said "Nope. I like what I like and what I like isn't related to what others like in any way, shape or form" or "I don't care what you have to say because you play / listen to x style of music", it would probably feel a bit rude. Granted, Jason probably doesn't frequent the forum, but still. This is a guy who knows his craft choosing to complement the band when he didn't have to, like MarkFitDT said. Even if I didn't think his opinion held much weight, I'd at least try to stick with the mindset of "great that he's enjoying it, hope we'll feel the same way" rather than participating in active dismissal.

Hit the nail on the head. Some people on here seriously need to lighten up.

[PROGdrummer]

Haven't logged in in years.

Damn, this forum is still full of toxic curmudgeons who have an elevated sense of self importance despite not accomplishing anything themselves.

Bye again.

[nobloodyname]

"he's only doing it because he doesn't want to bite the hand that feeds him"

Jesus, Mary, Joseph and the wee donkey! That is not what I said, fella

[Dedalus]

When you voice your opinion about the new record, I'm not going to stick around saying: Who is this guy? Who is Stadler? Why the hell should I pay attention to his opinion? Why is his opinion worth anything?

If reviews or the opinions of others are at all meaningful to you (and I don't know if they are or aren't and am not say one way or the other whether they should be), then you ABSOLUTELY SHOULD be questioning who the reviewer is and why his or her opinion should be meaningful to you.  If a particular critic expresses views about music or movies or whatever that are generally in line with your own opinions, then you ought to value that critic's opinions more highly than someone you've never heard of and know nothing about.  It can even work in reverse.  If we suddenly unearth a lost Yes album from the '70s and Robert Cristgau says it's great, that means I'm probably not going to like it.

I got it. But I need to know if this particular opinion is relevant to me. So please, tell me: Who are you?

[Architeuthis]

I would take Jason Richardson's opinion in high regard.  He is a exceptional guitar player and writes great music. He is also a good friend of JP and is heavily influenced by him.  So yeah,  hearing a positive review from JR has me even more excited for the new DT release.   

[MarkFitDT]

"he's only doing it because he doesn't want to bite the hand that feeds him"

Jesus, Mary, Joseph and the wee donkey! That is not what I said, fella

Apologies, i misread your post in amongst all the negativity!

[Ben_Jamin]

Come on DT. Just release a song so we all can hear how badass the song is.

[CDrice]

Apologies if my comment about 8 strings contributed to the negativity. I'm actually really excited for the new album. And while I don't think that using 8 strings guitar will make things inherently better or worse, the fact that JP is experimenting with it and that if remember correctly Jordan has reworked his keyboards sounds for the album makes me hopeful that we will have some nice surprises as it implies they're willing to try new things.

[ReaPsTA]

Come on DT. Just release a song so we all can hear how badass the song is.

Gotta milk the announcement hype first

[Ben_Jamin]

Apologies if my comment about 8 strings contributed to the negativity. I'm actually really excited for the new album. And while I don't think that using 8 strings guitar will make things inherently better or worse, the fact that JP is experimenting with it and that if remember correctly Jordan has reworked his keyboards sounds for the album makes me hopeful that we will have some nice surprises as it implies they're willing to try new things.

This is a big reason I am hyped for the new album. JR has been relying on certain patches for his Dream Theater sound, and when he does different projects with different tones and patches, I tend to enjoy those more than his Dream Theater works because they're different tones and patches.

Doing this, it made Dream Theater locked into a certain tone and sound as well. We get the usual Pig Snarl, the Synth lead tone, and the strings/choir. It's neat hearing him incorporate the newer technology into Dream Theater with the Continuum, Seaboard, Morphwiz, and recently the Keytars.

So I am hoping for totally different patches and tones. None of those Pig Snarl or Synth lead tones he is famous for. Now that would be a nice change of sound for the band. And one I do hope to hear in the new album.

[ReaPsTA]

Agreed

[CDrice]

I think we'll still get some of his more typical sounds, but I would certainly be really interested in hearing him do what you're proposing.

[Ben_Jamin]

I think we'll still get some of his more typical sounds, but I would certainly be really interested in hearing him do what you're proposing.

I think so too. Having different patches allows for the song to become something different. A certain patch or sound can affect what type of song is created. I do hope these sounds and patches caused the band to create some very interesting riffs and musical passages within the song. Also, if JR does have his usual patches, it would be cool to see how he would incorporate those to blend with the newer patches and sounds he used on this album.

[Peter Mc]

I've never heard of him but it's better than someone saying "I've heard the album and it sucks"

Honestly, not really.  I could find plenty of people who think SFAM sucks.

Really?  I mean, don't get me wrong, just because someone else likes something, it doesn't mean I'm going to so I'm not pinning all my hopes on this one dude who's friends with JP liking it.  In the run up to an album release though, it would dampen my excitement a little if everyone who heard and reviewed it was saying it was shite.  It's still better to me if I'm hearing positive word of mouth.

[Stadler]

Hot damn, all Jason Richardson did was state his opinion on the album, then a tide of "well, who gives a shit about what he thinks?". You can take or leave what he thinks about the album, but some of the active diminishing of his opinion seems a bit mean-spirited and contrarian. I get it, it might not be perhaps the most insightful comment about the new album but 1. we haven't really got much else to talk about, so for me this is another little nugget of hype and 2. you don't have to point out that you don't care. Just shrug and move on. Much like Dedalus said, if someone voiced their opinion of the album to you and you flat out said "Nope. I like what I like and what I like isn't related to what others like in any way, shape or form" or "I don't care what you have to say because you play / listen to x style of music", it would probably feel a bit rude. Granted, Jason probably doesn't frequent the forum, but still. This is a guy who knows his craft choosing to complement the band when he didn't have to, like MarkFitDT said. Even if I didn't think his opinion held much weight, I'd at least try to stick with the mindset of "great that he's enjoying it, hope we'll feel the same way" rather than participating in active dismissal.

I didn't realise how much one positive sentence from someone who has heard the album was going to irk some people! Its a thread about the new album so thought it valid to post his comment on here especially when none of us, save Noxon, have heard anything from the album. i didn't quite expect the "Who the f**k is he", "I don't give a s**t what he thinks" and "he's only doing it because he doesn't want to bite the hand that feeds him" comments when posting a positive comment! Understand not everyone will hear things the same way as him (and no doubt there will be a forensic analysis and a multitude of opinions on here when we do hear it both good and bad) but its far better than "well that was a steaming pile of s**t"!!

HAHA, that's too much.   Seriously.  I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, all I said was, basically, I'm going to trust my own ears.  It's that simple.  if someone finds that rude, well, I can't control that; it certainly wasn't intended that way.  I wish no ill will to Jason whatever, and I'm sure he's a smart, aware, talented guy.  I know PLENTY of smart, aware, talented people and we don't agree on what we like in music.   That's all I was saying. I would absolutely, 100% say right to his face "Dude, it's cool you heard some new music you like.  I can't wait to hear it for myself to make my own determination."   If one wants to let their opinions be influenced by what someone else says, more power to you.  Have at it and have fun!  Anything else that anyone is taking from what I said is on them, not me.

[TM172003]

Mate no one is saying anything about Jason's comment about the album being good influencing their own opinion, it's just nice to hear a positive comment on an unreleased album. How hard is that to grasp?

[MarkFitDT]

Hot damn, all Jason Richardson did was state his opinion on the album, then a tide of "well, who gives a shit about what he thinks?". You can take or leave what he thinks about the album, but some of the active diminishing of his opinion seems a bit mean-spirited and contrarian. I get it, it might not be perhaps the most insightful comment about the new album but 1. we haven't really got much else to talk about, so for me this is another little nugget of hype and 2. you don't have to point out that you don't care. Just shrug and move on. Much like Dedalus said, if someone voiced their opinion of the album to you and you flat out said "Nope. I like what I like and what I like isn't related to what others like in any way, shape or form" or "I don't care what you have to say because you play / listen to x style of music", it would probably feel a bit rude. Granted, Jason probably doesn't frequent the forum, but still. This is a guy who knows his craft choosing to complement the band when he didn't have to, like MarkFitDT said. Even if I didn't think his opinion held much weight, I'd at least try to stick with the mindset of "great that he's enjoying it, hope we'll feel the same way" rather than participating in active dismissal.

I didn't realise how much one positive sentence from someone who has heard the album was going to irk some people! Its a thread about the new album so thought it valid to post his comment on here especially when none of us, save Noxon, have heard anything from the album. i didn't quite expect the "Who the f**k is he", "I don't give a s**t what he thinks" and "he's only doing it because he doesn't want to bite the hand that feeds him" comments when posting a positive comment! Understand not everyone will hear things the same way as him (and no doubt there will be a forensic analysis and a multitude of opinions on here when we do hear it both good and bad) but its far better than "well that was a steaming pile of s**t"!!

HAHA, that's too much.   Seriously.  I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, all I said was, basically, I'm going to trust my own ears.  It's that simple.  if someone finds that rude, well, I can't control that; it certainly wasn't intended that way.  I wish no ill will to Jason whatever, and I'm sure he's a smart, aware, talented guy.  I know PLENTY of smart, aware, talented people and we don't agree on what we like in music.   That's all I was saying. I would absolutely, 100% say right to his face "Dude, it's cool you heard some new music you like.  I can't wait to hear it for myself to make my own determination."   If one wants to let their opinions be influenced by what someone else says, more power to you.  Have at it and have fun!  Anything else that anyone is taking from what I said is on them, not me.

its not about opinions being influenced by someone else - i completely get wanting to make your own mind up. I will aswell. I may well listen to the album when it comes out and not like it but like Peter Mc says in the post above its the run up to the album release, the time you would think when the excitement would be at its highest, a fellow DT fan (Richardson) has heard it and obviously likes it which was a positive for me. I thought it was a positive because he took the time to post the comment first and foremost as a DT fan - not because he is smart or talented or hoping that it would influence any one else's opinion when they finally get to hear it!

[MarkFitDT]

Mate no one is saying anything about Jason's comment about the album being good influencing their own opinion, it's just nice to hear a positive comment on an unreleased album. How hard is that to grasp?

This and its not hard to grasp.

[Ben_Jamin]

I expected this talk to come after we hear the first song, and then some end up saying "That guy was wrong. This is not badass. This is shit."

It's hilarious how some are getting upset over someone posting someone else's opinion on the new album we have not heard yet.

Once I hear the song or the album. Then will I know whether I agree with his opinion and it is badass, or I disagree and say it's not worthy of the DT name.

It is neat to know that those fortunate enough to have listened to the new album enjoy it and consider it "badass". Regardless of who they are.

[Dedalus]

Bosk1 wrote a review for The Great Adventure album. He really liked the record, I thought it was mediocre. But unlike a certain guitarist's wife, I found it very interesting to read the review, even though we have different opinions about the record. If he writes a review about the next record, I'll be happy to read it too.

At least in my opinion, I don't think it's a case of basing my opinions on others (although certainly we're all influenced by some opinions, it's foolish to think otherwise), but I'm interested in knowing them. Why the hell would I be on a fucking forum?

[Enigmachine]

HAHA, that's too much.   Seriously.  I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, all I said was, basically, I'm going to trust my own ears.  It's that simple.  if someone finds that rude, well, I can't control that; it certainly wasn't intended that way.  I wish no ill will to Jason whatever, and I'm sure he's a smart, aware, talented guy.  I know PLENTY of smart, aware, talented people and we don't agree on what we like in music.   That's all I was saying. I would absolutely, 100% say right to his face "Dude, it's cool you heard some new music you like.  I can't wait to hear it for myself to make my own determination."   If one wants to let their opinions be influenced by what someone else says, more power to you.  Have at it and have fun!  Anything else that anyone is taking from what I said is on them, not me.

I'm sure you meant no ill will towards Jason, but I do question why you, among others, feel the need to clarify that you do not care for his opinion. You say you're going to trust your own ears when you listen to it... which, good for you I guess? Pretty sure we'll all be doing that by the time the music's actually out though, we're not just going to be subscribing to pre-approved opinions just because somebody cool said them, but whatever. However, this leads me to ask what you're doing commenting within the hype cycle before any of the tracks are actually released. Gathering snippets of what people say here and there is par for the course for these sorts of cycles. If you don't care for the details of that then fine, but for people to announce that they don't care, that can often feel like a pointless dampener. With anyone who says that when something perfectly on topic is being brought up... I feel the need to say that you're probably in the wrong conversation and should discuss something you're actually interested in instead. It's not like any valuable insight is provided at these expressions of disinterest, unlike what may be offered with constructive criticism of artwork or new music.

Bosk1 wrote a review for The Great Adventure album. He really liked the record, I thought it was mediocre. But unlike a certain guitarist's wife, I found it very interesting to read the review, even though we have different opinions about the record. If he writes a review about the next record, I'll be happy to read it too.

At least in my opinion, I don't think it's a case of basing my opinions on others (although certainly we're all influenced by some opinions, it's foolish to think otherwise), but I'm interested in knowing them. Why the hell would I be on a fucking forum?

Absolutely this.

[Metro]

Man we need a new single, you guys seem bored

[Stadler]

Mate no one is saying anything about Jason's comment about the album being good influencing their own opinion, it's just nice to hear a positive comment on an unreleased album. How hard is that to grasp?

It's not at all hard to grasp.  No need to be condescending.   I DID see people saying that opinion mattered to them.  If I'm wrong in that so be it, but it's certainly not as clear as you make it out to be.

[kirksnosehair]

Hot damn, all Jason Richardson did was state his opinion on the album, then a tide of "well, who gives a shit about what he thinks?". You can take or leave what he thinks about the album, but some of the active diminishing of his opinion seems a bit mean-spirited and contrarian.

Contrarianism for the sake of contrarianism is like pissing into the wind then complaining that "it's raining piss, wtf!"