DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)

[Northern Lion]

Loud/compressed albums don't bother me that much.  I can see why it would bother some though.  I guess I find myself more interested in the song itself than how loud it is.

However, I do pay attention to how crisp and hard hitting the drums and guitar sound.  That's something I really like.  I love the sound of the guitars and drums in both DT12 and D/T.

I like the overall sound of TA but the sound of the drums and guitars don't give me that same "metal" excitement that the other two do.

ADToE, I don't like the sound of the drums and guitars very much at all.  But, I'm more focused on the songs themselves, so I still really love that album.

[nikatapi]

It seems quite a few people here have an issue with the loud/compressed sound of D/T. I would LOVE to hear a DT album recorded/mixed/mastered by Steven Wilson.

Yeah I know, but one can dream, right?

I would say bring back Kevin Shirley. I think he did the best sounding DT albums. Awake was also incredible sounding and sounds amazing even today.

[Architeuthis]

It seems quite a few people here have an issue with the loud/compressed sound of D/T. I would LOVE to hear a DT album recorded/mixed/mastered by Steven Wilson.

Yeah I know, but one can dream, right?

I would say bring back Kevin Shirley. I think he did the best sounding DT albums. Awake was also incredible sounding and sounds amazing even today.

Kevin Caveman Shirley mixed some of Maidens post 2000 albums and it's kind of hit and miss. I think that might be because Steve Harris has a lot of say so, and he doesn't want his albums mastered.

D/T sounds great to me, especially the blu-ray version.  A huge difference from the cd!

[hunnus2000]

Loud/compressed albums don't bother me that much.  I can see why it would bother some though.  I guess I find myself more interested in the song itself than how loud it is.

Couldn't agree more.

However, I do pay attention to how crisp and hard hitting the drums and guitar sound.  That's something I really like.  I love the sound of the guitars and drums in both DT12 and D/T.
When I first spun up DT12 it was certainly noticeable that the snare sounded a little dull but that did not take away from my enjoyment of that record and the only thing that I would have recommended is that JP had fewer rhythm guitar parts on certain songs. D/T for me though is nearly perfect in the sound. MM's drums sound awesome! 

I like the overall sound of TA but the sound the drums and guitars don't give me that same "metal" excitement that the other two do.
Well to my ears, I think this is where MM's drums start coming alive. The snare had more "crack" to it which captured beautifully on D/T. In fact, MM's parts on TA were out of sight.


ADToE, I don't like the sound of the drums and guitars very much at all.  But, I'm more focused on the songs themselves, so I still really love that album.
Now this one - I would love a remaster because the drums sound muddy but I love JP's guitar sound! In fact, I think he captures his quintessential guitar tone on BAI at the 3:46 mark. That certainly makes my horns go up!

[Setlist Scotty]

How about a double CD in a similar vein of SDOIT?

Your post actually reminded me of what I'd love to see them do, which is what DT album #6 was originally supposed to be: a DT album influenced by world music. Of course, the night before they were to start writing what became SDoIT, JP and MP saw Pantera in concert, which motivated them to toss aside the world music idea and write TGP. And as it turned out, that was probably for the best since Steve Vai ended up using the same concept for his album in that same time period.

Now that it's been 19 years, I'd love to see them resurrect that idea and see what they came up with. It would definitely be something unique, but I'm sure they would also still keep it firmly within the scope of what DT sounds like, especially in light of the backlash they received from TA.

[noxon]

What I find funny about the compression discussion is that Falling Into Infinity is "the gold standard" for what an album should sound like for DT, and it's also among the most compressed of them all. Just goes to show that average compression on an album is not always the best way to measure whether something sounds good or not.

[KevShmev]

I don't think Falling into Infinity is that compressed; I just think it lacks great dynamic range, hence its poor score on the dynamic range scale.  I don't think lack of dynamic range automatically equals compression.

Heck, Falling into Infinity and A Dramatic Turn of Events have similar scores on the dynamic range, yet FII sounds really good and the music is allowed to breathe, while ADToE sounds like the music is being suffocated by the compression way too often.  I would probably listen to ADToE more than I do if it sounded a lot better.

[noxon]

I mean, lack of dynamic range IS compression. That's the entire definition of compression (in the context of audio signal, not digital size reduction).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range_compression

[Volante99]

What I find funny about the compression discussion is that Falling Into Infinity is "the gold standard" for what an album should sound like for DT, and it's also among the most compressed of them all. Just goes to show that average compression on an album is not always the best way to measure whether something sounds good or not.

Do you have a source on this? To my knowledge FII is mastered hot but isn't compressed to the point of being clipped/brickwalled like DoT (the CD version, anyway). ADToE has its own problems but I'm not sure dynamic range is at the top of the list.

Agreed that dynamic range is NOT the end all be all for audio quality, however.

[Revenge319]

I always find it interesting to read discussions about the production of Dream Theater albums, about how some albums are mixed well, some are mixed terrible, and how albums succeed or fail in other ways regarding their production...
Because to me, I hear absolutely no difference between albums. I guess I just care way more about the music itself than the technical production qualities associated with it, because I hear basically no differences between WDADU and Awake and Falling Into Infinity and Train of Thought and BC&SL and ADTOE and DOT in terms of production quality or anything like that.
And those are just the albums that are usually brought up when discussing album production; same goes for the other seven albums.
(Guess that's what happens to me when it feels like Dream Theater can pretty much do no wrong.)

[qed]

It seems quite a few people here have an issue with the loud/compressed sound of D/T. I would LOVE to hear a DT album recorded/mixed/mastered by Steven Wilson.

Yeah I know, but one can dream, right?

I would say bring back Kevin Shirley. I think he did the best sounding DT albums. Awake was also incredible sounding and sounds amazing even today.

Bring Leon Zervos back .

[DoctorAction]

I always find it interesting to read discussions about the production of Dream Theater albums, about how some albums are mixed well, some are mixed terrible, and how albums succeed or fail in other ways regarding their production...
Because to me, I hear absolutely no difference between albums. I guess I just care way more about the music itself than the technical production qualities associated with it, because I hear basically no differences between WDADU and Awake and Falling Into Infinity and Train of Thought and BC&SL and ADTOE and DOT in terms of production quality or anything like that.
And those are just the albums that are usually brought up when discussing album production; same goes for the other seven albums.
(Guess that's what happens to me when it feels like Dream Theater can pretty much do no wrong.)

Have you got the 25th anniversary edition of Images and Words where the intro of Metropolis on bagpipes and kazoo? What? You didn't notice?!?

[Northern Lion]

I always find it interesting to read discussions about the production of Dream Theater albums, about how some albums are mixed well, some are mixed terrible, and how albums succeed or fail in other ways regarding their production...
Because to me, I hear absolutely no difference between albums. I guess I just care way more about the music itself than the technical production qualities associated with it, because I hear basically no differences between WDADU and Awake and Falling Into Infinity and Train of Thought and BC&SL and ADTOE and DOT in terms of production quality or anything like that.
And those are just the albums that are usually brought up when discussing album production; same goes for the other seven albums.
(Guess that's what happens to me when it feels like Dream Theater can pretty much do no wrong.)

Same here, the only exception (a funny one to me) is the audible string strumming on ToT.  I guess JP's guitar was a little too close to the mic relative to the amp.  But I don't enjoy the album any less because of it.

[Dedalus]

What I find funny about the compression discussion is that Falling Into Infinity is "the gold standard" for what an album should sound like for DT, and it's also among the most compressed of them all. Just goes to show that average compression on an album is not always the best way to measure whether something sounds good or not.

This.

I've had this same discussion on this forum before.

Without the intention of being rude or offensive to anyone, but for me the Noxon's observation is very clear about the issue. There is so much compression discussions and DRC scores are objective measures of that. FII is as compressed as ADToE or DT12 or DOT. It is irrelevant what we think or what our opinions are. Hard science.

[noxon]

The common way to measure compression is to look at the average, min and max loudness of an audio signal.

This is a database that compiles this loudness;
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/dr?artist=dream+theater

And it's been a little while since I looked at the waveforms themselves, but I seem to remember that the CD version of D/T was barely clipping at all, and that FII was actually clipping more than D/T. But the version of D/T I heard the first time around would've been at the top of the list I just linked to, and clipped a LOT.

[Northern Lion]

The common way to measure compression is to look at the average, min and max loudness of an audio signal.

This is a database that compiles this loudness;
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/dr?artist=dream+theater

And it's been a little while since I looked at the waveforms themselves, but I seem to remember that the CD version of D/T was barely clipping at all, and that FII was actually clipping more than D/T. But the version of D/T I heard the first time around would've been at the top of the list I just linked to, and clipped a LOT.

Question.  Do you know if this list also includes the albums you can buy off sites like HD Tracks?  It says "lossless download" but I don't know what that means.

[Lowe2005]

How about a double CD in a similar vein of SDOIT?

Your post actually reminded me of what I'd love to see them do, which is what DT album #6 was originally supposed to be: a DT album influenced by world music. Of course, the night before they were to start writing what became SDoIT, JP and MP saw Pantera in concert, which motivated them to toss aside the world music idea and write TGP. And as it turned out, that was probably for the best since Steve Vai ended up using the same concept for his album in that same time period.

Now that it's been 19 years, I'd love to see them resurrect that idea and see what they came up with. It would definitely be something unique, but I'm sure they would also still keep it firmly within the scope of what DT sounds like, especially in light of the backlash they received from TA.

The problem with the backlash to TA is, the band seem to see it as people weren't keen on them experimenting whereas I just felt like they didn't do enough experimenting and a lot of it was still quite 'safe'. There are some great bits throughout where they do try different stuff, like Lord Nafaryus, Three Days and A New Beginning, but then there's also a lot of stereotypical ballads and metal bits. Without trying to focus too much on the already done to death TA discussion, I'd just like them to try a lot of different things again. I feel like if you look at everything through to SC every album feels distinctly different to the last one, then up to DT12 they're still quite different album to album but if you look at the 4 Mangini-era albums together I don't feel like they've moved that far from ADTOE on DOT.

[Volante99]

The common way to measure compression is to look at the average, min and max loudness of an audio signal.

This is a database that compiles this loudness;
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/dr?artist=dream+theater

And it's been a little while since I looked at the waveforms themselves, but I seem to remember that the CD version of D/T was barely clipping at all, and that FII was actually clipping more than D/T. But the version of D/T I heard the first time around would've been at the top of the list I just linked to, and clipped a LOT.

Here you go; found on Steve Hoffman
https://m.imgur.com/a/0Tvgcqq

Top is CD
Bottom is Apple/Itunes (apparently a different master than what was released on iTunes originally).

I think I'm just going to have to pony up some money for the blu-Ray version or try the (apparently) new iTunes files.

[Dream Team]

Maybe this has been mentioned, but with the DT guys sequestered it may present an opportunity for DT15 to be a Fragile type album with some individual compositions. Would be very curious to hear that.

[Max Kuehnau]

Maybe this has been mentioned, but with the DT guys sequestered it may present an opportunity for DT15 to be a Fragile type album with some individual compositions. Would be very curious to hear that.

well, IIRC Mike mentioned in one of his FB posts (some time last year after D/T came out) that he intends to contribute quite a bit more to DT15

[Setlist Scotty]

How about a double CD in a similar vein of SDOIT?

Your post actually reminded me of what I'd love to see them do, which is what DT album #6 was originally supposed to be: a DT album influenced by world music. Of course, the night before they were to start writing what became SDoIT, JP and MP saw Pantera in concert, which motivated them to toss aside the world music idea and write TGP. And as it turned out, that was probably for the best since Steve Vai ended up using the same concept for his album in that same time period.

Now that it's been 19 years, I'd love to see them resurrect that idea and see what they came up with. It would definitely be something unique, but I'm sure they would also still keep it firmly within the scope of what DT sounds like, especially in light of the backlash they received from TA.

The problem with the backlash to TA is, the band seem to see it as people weren't keen on them experimenting whereas I just felt like they didn't do enough experimenting and a lot of it was still quite 'safe'. There are some great bits throughout where they do try different stuff, like Lord Nafaryus, Three Days and A New Beginning, but then there's also a lot of stereotypical ballads and metal bits. Without trying to focus too much on the already done to death TA discussion, I'd just like them to try a lot of different things again. I feel like if you look at everything through to SC every album feels distinctly different to the last one, then up to DT12 they're still quite different album to album but if you look at the 4 Mangini-era albums together I don't feel like they've moved that far from ADTOE on DOT.

It's true that a big chunk of fans didn't like TA, but I don't know how much of it was truly from them experimenting - SDoIT was an experimental album, and it's one of the most highly rated albums (at least on this website). I think a lot more of it was the storyline, the fact that the album was (for lack of a better phrase) ballad-heavy, it was the musical equivalent to a Broadway play, perhaps it was too long and it was lacking the song styles/structures that DT is known for (varying structures, with a good dose of balls'n'chunk and different instrumental sections interspersed).

If they were to do a world music-influenced album (note: influenced - *not* a world music album), I would imagine they would learn from their experience with TA to make sure that it still has enough DT-ness to it that it wouldn't end up being as polarizing as TA ended up being.

Maybe this has been mentioned, but with the DT guys sequestered it may present an opportunity for DT15 to be a Fragile type album with some individual compositions. Would be very curious to hear that.

I'd be into that, especially if said solo compositions in addition to the album - as bonus tracks (ala Motley Crue's Quaternary EP) rather than part of the album proper.

[KevShmev]

If they were to do a world music-influenced album (note: influenced - *not* a world music album), I would imagine they would learn from their experience with TA to make sure that it still has enough DT-ness to it that it wouldn't end up being as polarizing as TA ended up being.

I would hope they would not factor that in, actually. The biggest mistake a musician can make when writing music is worrying about fan reaction; how much fans like or dislike previous work should have zero impact on the new work you are making.  Artificially adding in DT-ness, which is how I took that phrase, could come across as too forced.

[nikatapi]

If they were to do a world music-influenced album (note: influenced - *not* a world music album), I would imagine they would learn from their experience with TA to make sure that it still has enough DT-ness to it that it wouldn't end up being as polarizing as TA ended up being.

I would hope they would not factor that in, actually. The biggest mistake a musician can make when writing music is worrying about fan reaction; how much fans like or dislike previous work should have zero impact on the new work you are making.  Artificially adding in DT-ness, which is how I took that phrase, could come across as too forced.

Well, you can for sure bet that the band takes that into account. I think DoT is a testament of that, after deviating too much on The Astonishing and the backlash that followed.

[Lonk]

If they were to do a world music-influenced album (note: influenced - *not* a world music album), I would imagine they would learn from their experience with TA to make sure that it still has enough DT-ness to it that it wouldn't end up being as polarizing as TA ended up being.

I would hope they would not factor that in, actually. The biggest mistake a musician can make when writing music is worrying about fan reaction; how much fans like or dislike previous work should have zero impact on the new work you are making.  Artificially adding in DT-ness, which is how I took that phrase, could come across as too forced.

Well, you can for sure bet that the band takes that into account. I think DoT is a testament of that, after deviating too much on The Astonishing and the backlash that followed.

D/T is still a great album, but I agree that it feels like a result of the polarized reception to TA.

I personally liked TA. My only issue with it was the (IMO) cheesy ending to the story, but overall it's still a good album with some great moments.

[MirrorMask]

I went through my abridged version of it the other week, I still like it a lot. I'll admit it's not a timeless masterpiece, as you said good with moments of greatness, but those moments are many.

I still think that the initial run from the beginning up until Three Days (ideally, the ending of "Act I" if we call the rest of the first disc Act II and the second disc Act III) is absolutely fantastic and a great uninterrupted collection of awesome music. My muuuusic playeeeer aside maybe.

[Ben_Jamin]

If they were to do a world music-influenced album (note: influenced - *not* a world music album), I would imagine they would learn from their experience with TA to make sure that it still has enough DT-ness to it that it wouldn't end up being as polarizing as TA ended up being.

I would hope they would not factor that in, actually. The biggest mistake a musician can make when writing music is worrying about fan reaction; how much fans like or dislike previous work should have zero impact on the new work you are making.  Artificially adding in DT-ness, which is how I took that phrase, could come across as too forced.

Well, you can for sure bet that the band takes that into account. I think DoT is a testament of that, after deviating too much on The Astonishing and the backlash that followed.

D/T is still a great album, but I agree that it feels like a result of the polarized reception to TA.

I personally liked TA. My only issue with it was the (IMO) cheesy ending to the story, but overall it's still a good album with some great moments.

The ending reminds me of Disney endings. But I liked it. Because all the characters get resolved at the end. It's How music can be powerful.

[gzarruk]

I still think that the initial run from the beginning up until Three Days is absolutely fantastic and a great uninterrupted collection of awesome music.

I agree! That initial run of songs is amazing! The second half of Disc 1 gets a bit too "ballady", so the pace is obviously slower and listening to the whole thing can be a bit tiring, but I'd say every song has GREAT moments anyway. I still think it's one of their best albums, despite the mixed reaction it had. Definitely the most ambitious project they've done so far.

D/T, in contrast, feels like a more relaxed, short album they did for fun, and man is it good

[bosk1]

I am having ongoing technical issues with The Astonishing that are baffling and quite frustrating, and prevents me from listening to it as often as I would like.  For some reason, the coding for each track on that album is a mess, and it doesn't help that it is 2 disks.  For whatever reason, when downloading the tracks to a hard drive or my phone, they do not appear in order.  I have to go in manually and figure out how to get them to show up in the correct order.  And then it seems like every time either my music player app or Sonos app updates, it is all screwed up, and I have to figure it out all over again.  Quite annoying.

[hunnus2000]

I still think that the initial run from the beginning up until Three Days is absolutely fantastic and a great uninterrupted collection of awesome music.

I agree! That initial run of songs is amazing! The second half of Disc 1 gets a bit too "ballady", so the pace is obviously slower and listening to the whole thing can be a bit tiring, but I'd say every song has GREAT moments anyway. I still think it's one of their best albums, despite the mixed reaction it had. Definitely the most ambitious project they've done so far.

D/T, in contrast, feels like a more relaxed, short album they did for fun, and man is it good

There's no way else to say it - TA is a work of art! I compare it this way - 2112=SFAM and La Villa Strangiato = TA.

It was quite an accomplishment to write and record a rock opera. I just hope it gets made into a movie. 

[Lonk]

I am having ongoing technical issues with The Astonishing that are baffling and quite frustrating, and prevents me from listening to it as often as I would like.  For some reason, the coding for each track on that album is a mess, and it doesn't help that it is 2 disks.  For whatever reason, when downloading the tracks to a hard drive or my phone, they do not appear in order.  I have to go in manually and figure out how to get them to show up in the correct order.  And then it seems like every time either my music player app or Sonos app updates, it is all screwed up, and I have to figure it out all over again.  Quite annoying.

I had the same issue with TA and BC&SL. It kept playing song numbers from both disc next to each instead of the correct order by disc.

For example, Song #1 from Disc 1 plays and then jumps to Song #1 from disc 2. Then song #2 from both disc and so on.

[bosk1]

There's no way else to say it - TA is a work of art!

Absolutely!  The only question is to what extent that also translates into it being a great album.  To me, it is easily an extremely good album.  Whether it reaches "great" or not, I'm still not quite sure.  But either way, I love it.

[hefdaddy42]

There's no way else to say it - TA is a work of art!

Absolutely!  The only question is to what extent that also translates into it being a great album.  To me, it is easily an extremely good album.  Whether it reaches "great" or not, I'm still not quite sure.  But either way, I love it.

Same here.  I definitely love it.  But I still have no idea how to rank it among their other albums.

[bosk1]

Yeah, same.  I mean, it's not radically different from what they've done, so in theory, it shouldn't be hard to rank.  But for some reason, I just conceptually have a difficult time putting it up next to the rest of their discography and figuring out how it ranks.

[Indiscipline]

There's no way else to say it - TA is a work of art!

Absolutely!  The only question is to what extent that also translates into it being a great album.  To me, it is easily an extremely good album.  Whether it reaches "great" or not, I'm still not quite sure.  But either way, I love it.

Same here.  I definitely love it.  But I still have no idea how to rank it among their other albums.

Had the same dilemma for a while, then I decided it was to be ranked "laterally", so to speak, due to its particular nature. Now I have my favourite (I&W) as 1A and The Astonishing as 1B.

[pg1067]

There's no way else to say it - TA is a work of art!

So is this:

I compare it this way - 2112=SFAM and La Villa Strangiato = TA.

Even if I liked TA, that would be a terrible analogy.